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    PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    LMFS
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    Post  LMFS Mon Jul 02, 2018 12:56 am

    littlerabbit wrote:
    Excellent news! cheers How many will be delivered in 2019? Smile

    Probably they will start arriving in 2019 and be delivered until 2022-23, when the tests of the izd. 30 should be advanced enough to take a decision regarding a bigger order with second stage engines for the air force.

    miketheterrible wrote:
    No fighter uses it. It's still all experimental.

    Russia is moving towards making 15 - 20W GaN modules via Rostec in mass quantities for 5G networking which will be pushed for all over Russia and potential third countries via the big Telecom companies. The icing on cake will be reduced costs due to civilian use and will be purposed for radar systems of all type.

    That is what I thought too, apparently Saab offered a fighter radar with GaN modules to India, and  some big-sized ground radars in US are already being equipped with them in a bid to scale up production and reduce costs, but these kind of developments in microelectronics are quite slow normally.

    Regarding the modules for the 5G civilian application, would they even be compatible with say an X-band radar for a fighter? Though this strategy is completely ok and would allow to create the manufacturing and technologic basis for military modules, they are not even in the same frequency range...
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    PAK-FA, T-50: News #4 - Page 33 Empty Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    Post  Pierre Sprey Tue Jul 03, 2018 6:41 am

    miketheterrible wrote:
    Pierre Sprey wrote:PAK-FA, T-50: News #4 - Page 33 Rogoway1_1_by_kgb950-dcft9qg


    PAK-FA, T-50: News #4 - Page 33 Rogoway2_2_by_kgb950-dcfviuo

    Has anyone ever taken this guy seriously?

    If so, then they are in for a surprise.

    I dunno about seriously but he is still a western defense media pundit with a sizable following. He is reasonably critical of the F-35 , Trump and some shit. But when it comes to the su 57, he just loses his mind.

    I really think he believes it. What the fuck is going through someone's head when they think this ? Anyone with eyes can see that the su 57 has planform alignment, computer generated stealth angle shaping, internal weapons, offset S intakes and a focus on low profile. The only reason the su 57 exists is to counter the stealth of the western fleet. Its basic military doctrine. Russia didn't need a new jet. The su 35 has super cruise, 5th gen avionics and 3DTVC. The only thing it doesn't have is stealth. So the su 57 had to be built.

    There is something about the su 57 that just gets people loopy. There are posters at KeyPub who don't post in any other topics. They make it a full time job creating conspiracy nonsense about the su 57. That is why the mods have to delete the thread every 6 months. No other threads ever get deleted except the su 57 thread.

    I think its beacsue the USA stronkists see the F-22 as their trophy for winning the cold war. So Russia cant ever have one. It can never have a stealth 5th gen front line fighter
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    Post  miketheterrible Tue Jul 03, 2018 8:31 am

    Keypub became a joke like mp.net, so don't worry.

    There are people who trash the J-20 openly too.

    They just don't like competition. Many people actually truly believe that its all shape and nothing else, so who cares. They are stupid, end of story. World has 7B people in it. Out of that 7B people, I figure at least 80% of them are stupid. And a lot of those stupid people also have internet.
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    Post  Big_Gazza Tue Jul 03, 2018 3:04 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:Keypub became a joke like mp.net, so don't worry.

    There are people who trash the J-20 openly too.

    They just don't like competition.  Many people actually truly believe that its all shape and nothing else, so who cares.  They are stupid, end of story.  World has 7B people in it.  Out of that 7B people, I figure at least 80% of them are stupid.  And a lot of those stupid people also have internet.

    Since the invention of the internet, the Quality Index of the human race was been trending sharply downwards. Previously, the world was chock-full of stultifying idiocy, but the afflicted were geographically isolated and had little ability to interconnect with their own kind and achieve any semblance of critical mass. Now it is trivially easy for those with a shoe-size-IQ to make contact with fellow sufferers and trigger the ceaseless geometric progression of life-threatening stupidity that is so plaguing the world. If fortune smiles upon us, the WWW will result in a MEE (Mass Extinction Event) similar to the Yucatan asteroid impact, wiping out 99% of "intelligent" lifeforms and allowing the planet to reset. Hopefully the next species to be promoted by evolution to the rank of to Alpha Despoiler will do a better job than our brand of barely-evolved dung-throwing arboreal primates...

    If those geeks at DARPA Net only knew what they were creating... they would likely have burned their notes and shot their colleagues.
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    PAK-FA, T-50: News #4 - Page 33 Empty Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    Post  Pierre Sprey Tue Jul 03, 2018 7:09 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:Keypub became a joke like mp.net, so don't worry.

    There are people who trash the J-20 openly too.

    They just don't like competition.  Many people actually truly believe that its all shape and nothing else, so who cares.  They are stupid, end of story.  World has 7B people in it.  Out of that 7B people, I figure at least 80% of them are stupid.  And a lot of those stupid people also have internet.

    The J-20 gets trashed a bit. But its not even close to the su 57.

    And in the western defense media circles, they have given the J-20's stealth, their stamp of approval. But not the su 57 of course. Which is obviously f--ing ridiculous and just shows their childish bias.

    Imagine the roles were reversed. Imagine that Russia fielded the J-20 and China fielded the su 57. They would just laugh and say nice try.

    PAK-FA, T-50: News #4 - Page 33 J20pakfacleanfront1_3_by_kgb950-dcdcohl



    miketheterrible
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    Post  miketheterrible Tue Jul 03, 2018 9:45 pm

    No, because it looks stealthy in their opinion, it is. Who gives a shit.

    @lmfs

    Umm, I think generally the T/R modules are not as specific because many T/R modules are tuned differently but only 1 producer in Russia makes them - NPO ISTOk.

    And if you read the article, it states it is for both radar application and 5G networking.
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    Post  Austin Wed Jul 04, 2018 8:13 pm

    The Su-57 should be considered as an aircraft with export potential, and efforts should be concentrated on the creation of a fighter of the 6th generation - Gutenev

    http://militarynews.ru/story.asp?rid=1&nid=485254

    07/04/2018 15:40:54

    Moscow. 4th of July. Interfax-AVN - The Su-57 fighter should be considered as a fine aircraft with export potential, but the main efforts should be focused on creating a transitional machine, the head of the State Duma commission for legal support of the development of defense industry organizations, the first vice- president of the Union of Machine Builders of the Russian Federation Vladimir Gutenev.

    "I believe that the sixth-generation fighter will be a transitional vehicle between manned aircraft and unmanned intellectual shock complexes (BIOK) - in this case we are talking about aerial BIKU that can, thanks to their intellect, carry out the tasks set, including those that are sufficiently massive groups, "he said, commenting on the statement by Yury Borisov, Deputy Prime Minister of the Russian Federation, that there will be no mass deliveries of the fifth generation of Su-57 fighters to Russia.

    "I am largely in agreement with the words of Yuri Ivanovich (Borisov) about the fact that it is hardly worthwhile to expect a massive purchase of the Su-57," Gutenev said.

    "Given the undoubted merits of this machine, we certainly understand that the program was launched in 2001, and the implementation of the program for a number of objective reasons was delayed (initially it was planned in 2006-2007 to conduct flight tests, and from 2014 already deliver in the troops), in connection with the very dynamic development of technology - this applies to the systems of electronic warfare, and new composite materials, and new opportunities that additive technologies provide in terms of constructive cheaper machines, "- konstestirov Al he.

    "Well, of course, this is due to the fact that we have very sophisticated machines - the Su-34 and Su-35, which showed themselves well," said V.Gutenev. "Until 2023-2024 on the Su-57 is not supposed to install the engine of the second stage, the test of which has just started, it is" Product 30 ", and despite the fact that our car is much cheaper (according to my estimates, 2.5 times , than foreign analogues of the 5th generation), but still it is much more expensive and requires more fine services in comparison with the Su-34 and Su-35, "added V.Gutenev.

    "Therefore, I agree with the opinion of Yuri Ivanovich (Borisov), according to which we already have experience, when thanks to reasonable technical policy we actually jumped through the generation, saving the budget to a considerable extent," he said.

    "We were probably able to clarify a number of possible and accompanying data on the ability of the F-22 and F-35 to detect our aircrafts in the short-term stay of our Su-57 machines in February this year - telemetry provided an important reason for their improvement," - said V.Gutenev.

    "Therefore, the concentration (effort) in the transitional, 6th generation, it seems to me, would be much more appropriate, and the 5th generation should serve in a small-series variant to develop technical tasks that would allow on the one hand to capitalize in foreign markets the costs incurred on this machine, and on the other hand - to improve the system (of prospective aircraft), "said V.Gutenev.

    "This is an extremely rational and correct approach, ensuring a balance between the interests of the defense industry complex and the customer," he said.
    The deputy believes that in the interests of the defense industry it would be "simply enough to form the export image of the Su-57 with the engine of the second stage."

    "This is absolutely correct and pragmatic solution," he said.
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    Post  PapaDragon Wed Jul 04, 2018 8:55 pm

    Austin wrote:The Su-57 should be considered as an aircraft with export potential, and efforts should be concentrated on the creation of a fighter of the 6th generation - Gutenev

    http://militarynews.ru/story.asp?rid=1&nid=485254

    07/04/2018 15:40:54

         
    Moscow. 4th of July. Interfax-AVN - The Su-57 fighter should be considered as a fine aircraft with export potential, but the main efforts should be focused on creating a transitional machine, the head of the State Duma commission for legal support of the development of defense industry organizations, the first vice- president of the Union of Machine Builders of the Russian Federation Vladimir Gutenev...............
         

    Bitch, you are barely able to make ones for yourself and you want to export it? Remember MiG-35?

    You are incapable of finishing Su-57 on time and you want to develop some mythical 6th gen whateverthefuck?

    And who would buy some shit that even it's own manufacturer refuses to use?

    Where are they finding these Rogozin-type morons?

    Navy, space and now aircraft sector. What else is going to shit next over there?
    miketheterrible
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    Post  miketheterrible Wed Jul 04, 2018 9:18 pm

    F-35 is barely able to fly but is being exported.

    At least Russia can build these in rather good time frame, even if all they are missing are the newest engines.  Yet the plane still works with old engines.

    Next gen jet will simply be tailored from Su-57 but using photonics and other newer experimental systems being tested now.

    Su-30 took over a decade to enter service, and even then, it still went through strict trials even though foreign customers were using it for a decade earlier.
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    Post  Pierre Sprey Thu Jul 05, 2018 8:23 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Austin wrote:The Su-57 should be considered as an aircraft with export potential, and efforts should be concentrated on the creation of a fighter of the 6th generation - Gutenev

    http://militarynews.ru/story.asp?rid=1&nid=485254

    07/04/2018 15:40:54

         
    Moscow. 4th of July. Interfax-AVN - The Su-57 fighter should be considered as a fine aircraft with export potential, but the main efforts should be focused on creating a transitional machine, the head of the State Duma commission for legal support of the development of defense industry organizations, the first vice- president of the Union of Machine Builders of the Russian Federation Vladimir Gutenev...............
         

    Bitch, you are barely able to make ones for yourself and you want to export it? Remember MiG-35?

    You are incapable of finishing Su-57 on time and you want to develop some mythical 6th gen whateverthefuck?

    And who would buy some shit that even it's own manufacturer refuses to use?

    Where are they finding these Rogozin-type morons?

    Navy, space and now aircraft sector. What else is going to shit next over there?

    They have the money and the capability. They are choosing not to you dumb fool. The su 57 is for the long run. To replace the su 27 Flanker family of aircraft. Its not intended to mirror the F-22 program. The discontinued F-22.

    The su 57 is the platform for the 6th gen. The su 57 is too good to be a 5th gen. So I think they might make a 6th gen out of it and then mass produce that.

    The same who bought the 1000+ Flankers all over the world.
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    Post  Pierre Sprey Thu Jul 05, 2018 8:26 am

    Austin wrote:The Su-57 should be considered as an aircraft with export potential, and efforts should be concentrated on the creation of a fighter of the 6th generation - Gutenev

    http://militarynews.ru/story.asp?rid=1&nid=485254

    07/04/2018 15:40:54

         
    Moscow. 4th of July. Interfax-AVN - The Su-57 fighter should be considered as a fine aircraft with export potential, but the main efforts should be focused on creating a transitional machine, the head of the State Duma commission for legal support of the development of defense industry organizations, the first vice- president of the Union of Machine Builders of the Russian Federation Vladimir Gutenev.

          "I believe that the sixth-generation fighter will be a transitional vehicle between manned aircraft and unmanned intellectual shock complexes (BIOK) - in this case we are talking about aerial BIKU that can, thanks to their intellect, carry out the tasks set, including those that are sufficiently massive groups, "he said, commenting on the statement by Yury Borisov, Deputy Prime Minister of the Russian Federation, that there will be no mass deliveries of the fifth generation of Su-57 fighters to Russia.

          "I am largely in agreement with the words of Yuri Ivanovich (Borisov) about the fact that it is hardly worthwhile to expect a massive purchase of the Su-57," Gutenev said.

          "Given the undoubted merits of this machine, we certainly understand that the program was launched in 2001, and the implementation of the program for a number of objective reasons was delayed (initially it was planned in 2006-2007 to conduct flight tests, and from 2014 already deliver in the troops), in connection with the very dynamic development of technology - this applies to the systems of electronic warfare, and new composite materials, and new opportunities that additive technologies provide in terms of constructive cheaper machines, "- konstestirov Al he.

          "Well, of course, this is due to the fact that we have very sophisticated machines - the Su-34 and Su-35, which showed themselves well," said V.Gutenev. "Until 2023-2024 on the Su-57 is not supposed to install the engine of the second stage, the test of which has just started, it is" Product 30 ", and despite the fact that our car is much cheaper (according to my estimates, 2.5 times , than foreign analogues of the 5th generation), but still it is much more expensive and requires more fine services in comparison with the Su-34 and Su-35, "added V.Gutenev.

          "Therefore, I agree with the opinion of Yuri Ivanovich (Borisov), according to which we already have experience, when thanks to reasonable technical policy we actually jumped through the generation, saving the budget to a considerable extent," he said.

          "We were probably able to clarify a number of possible and accompanying data on the ability of the F-22 and F-35 to detect our aircrafts in the short-term stay of our Su-57 machines in February this year - telemetry provided an important reason for their improvement," - said V.Gutenev.

          "Therefore, the concentration (effort) in the transitional, 6th generation, it seems to me, would be much more appropriate, and the 5th generation should serve in a small-series variant to develop technical tasks that would allow on the one hand to capitalize in foreign markets the costs incurred on this machine, and on the other hand - to improve the system (of prospective aircraft), "said V.Gutenev.

          "This is an extremely rational and correct approach, ensuring a balance between the interests of the defense industry complex and the customer," he said.
          The deputy believes that in the interests of the defense industry it would be "simply enough to form the export image of the Su-57 with the engine of the second stage."

          "This is absolutely correct and pragmatic solution," he said.
         

    This post is what just got the su 57 thread deleted at KeyPub. Falcondude made some douchey comment. He said "so the Pak Fa program is a failure ?" Then the thread was gone.
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    Post  Singular_Transform Thu Jul 05, 2018 11:31 am

    [quote="Austin"]


    "Well, of course, this is due to the fact that we have very sophisticated machines - the Su-34 and Su-35, which showed themselves well," said V.Gutenev. "Until 2023-2024 on the Su-57 is not supposed to install the engine of the second stage, the test of which has just started, it is" Product 30 ", and despite the fact that our car is much cheaper (according to my estimates, 2.5 times , than foreign analogues of the 5th generation), but still it is much more expensive and requires more fine services in comparison with the Su-34 and Su-35, "added V.Gutenev.



    There is the important part.
    Let say he compare it to the f22, that cost 150 million, divided by two and half, and multiplied by 74 ( exchange rate) means the cost of each Su57 is 4.4 billion ruble.

    It is three times more expensive than a su35.

    So, you can choose to buy 100 su57 or 300 su35.

    And he mention the more costly maintenance, means the pilots can train more on the su35 than on the su57.
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    Post  Hole Thu Jul 05, 2018 11:47 am

    The Su-57 will be produced for the next 15 to 20 years. At least. There will be a mix of Su-30/-35/-57 plus Su-34 and MiG-35 and all this drones. Propably 12 Su-57 in 2020, 60 in 2025 and up to 200 in 2030. Nothing to worry about.

    The F-22 program instead is a failure. They wanted 1.000 planes and got 180.
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    Post  Azi Thu Jul 05, 2018 12:09 pm

    Singular_Transform wrote:
    Austin wrote:
         


          "Well, of course, this is due to the fact that we have very sophisticated machines - the Su-34 and Su-35, which showed themselves well," said V.Gutenev. "Until 2023-2024 on the Su-57 is not supposed to install the engine of the second stage, the test of which has just started, it is" Product 30 ", and despite the fact that our car is much cheaper (according to my estimates, 2.5 times , than foreign analogues of the 5th generation), but still it is much more expensive and requires more fine services in comparison with the Su-34 and Su-35, "added V.Gutenev.


         

    There is the important part.
    Let say he compare it to the f22, that cost 150 million, divided by two and half, and multiplied by 74 ( exchange rate) means the cost of each Su57 is 4.4 billion ruble.

    It is three times more expensive than a su35.

    So, you can choose to buy 100 su57 or 300 su35.

    And he mention the more costly maintenance, means the pilots can train more on the su35 than on the su57.
    The problem is...according to this interview, neither they will buy 100 Su-57 nor 300 Su-35. If the Su-35 is the better plane (costs) why not starting big mass production of Su-35? Why not focus years before??? You know how many Su-35 are active in RuAF NOW? So they are waiting for mythical 6gen fighter with take-off at best somewhere around 2030, starting mass production around 2040-2050? Yeah great! Wait...in this time western agressors will have over 1500 F-35 and don't forget the whole bunch of 4gen fighter and F-22...so let's say 200 or 300 Su-35 4++ gen stands against nearly 2000 5gen fighter....who would win?

    It's clear that the Su-57 is more expensive than a Su-35, but it's a 5gen fighter! Russia should invest in the future and security.

    Hey guys, don't be so naive...the clown in interview said the Su-57 is dead! At the other side he is not the man to decide something, so I have hope.
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    Post  Azi Thu Jul 05, 2018 12:13 pm

    Hole wrote:The Su-57 will be produced for the next 15 to 20 years. At least. There will be a mix of Su-30/-35/-57 plus Su-34 and MiG-35 and all this drones. Propably 12 Su-57 in 2020, 60 in 2025 and up to 200 in 2030. Nothing to worry about.
    I hope and pray you are right bro! The interview says only 12 Su-57 till 2027.
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    Post  Singular_Transform Thu Jul 05, 2018 2:32 pm

    Azi wrote:
    Singular_Transform wrote:
    Austin wrote:
         


          "Well, of course, this is due to the fact that we have very sophisticated machines - the Su-34 and Su-35, which showed themselves well," said V.Gutenev. "Until 2023-2024 on the Su-57 is not supposed to install the engine of the second stage, the test of which has just started, it is" Product 30 ", and despite the fact that our car is much cheaper (according to my estimates, 2.5 times , than foreign analogues of the 5th generation), but still it is much more expensive and requires more fine services in comparison with the Su-34 and Su-35, "added V.Gutenev.


         

    There is the important part.
    Let say he compare it to the f22, that cost 150 million, divided by two and half, and multiplied by 74 ( exchange rate) means the cost of each Su57 is 4.4 billion ruble.

    It is three times more expensive than a su35.

    So, you can choose to buy 100 su57 or 300 su35.

    And he mention the more costly maintenance, means the pilots can train more on the su35 than on the su57.
    The problem is...according to this interview, neither they will buy 100 Su-57 nor 300 Su-35. If the Su-35 is the better plane (costs) why not starting big mass production of Su-35? Why not focus years before??? You know how many Su-35 are active in RuAF NOW? So they are waiting for mythical 6gen fighter with take-off at best somewhere around 2030, starting mass production around 2040-2050? Yeah great! Wait...in this time western agressors will have over 1500 F-35 and don't forget the whole bunch of 4gen fighter and F-22...so let's say 200 or 300 Su-35 4++ gen stands against nearly 2000 5gen fighter....who would win?

    It's clear that the Su-57 is more expensive than a Su-35, but it's a 5gen fighter! Russia should invest in the future and security.

    Hey guys, don't be so naive...the clown in interview said the Su-57 is dead! At the other side he is not the man to decide something, so I have hope.


    It is not dead.

    Say in ten years time Russia will have 300 Su-35, and say 40 su57.


    If they go for aircraft carrier that can use su57 exclusively.


    Anyway, the on combat su57s makes it necessary for any potential adversary to install and operate early warning systems for stealth aircrafts, to develop and manufacture new generation of SAMs and improved radards for every asset.
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    Post  PapaDragon Thu Jul 05, 2018 3:02 pm

    Pierre Sprey wrote:..
    PapaDragon wrote:
    .

    They have the money and the capability. They are choosing not to you dumb fool. ....,

    I don't remember telling you anything so fuck off

    Next time you want to insult people get a reason first




    As for this moron and statement in that article: only reason Su-35 was purchased was to fill the numbers of fighter aviation since Su-57 was being delayed. They never wanted Su-35 but they had to get something to fill the numbers.

    Now they have clowns lobbying to peddle more of them while they pocket the money they got from designing Su-57.

    If they plan on sticking with 4gen aircraft then Su-30 is the one they will be getting because that one is already ordered in large numbers while orders for Su-35 stopped.

    And excuse this asshole is giving is insult to intelligence: "We can make super airplane any time we want, this one is superior to enemy's but inferior for our amazing needs"

    Bullshit of the highest order!!! You are barely making this one.

    They have already abandoned Gorshkov frigates and Soyuz-5 rockets and now Su-57 is on the chopping block because it's "transitional product"? Transition to what? Soviet era hardware?

    What's next to go out? My guess T-14 Armata because why bother with it when they will design Optimus Prime in 5 years to handle land warfare? In the meantime T-64 will do just fine because soon they will have Optimus Prime. Any day now...

    They should just get rid of kevlar vests too. Troops can just exercise and have awesome abs which will deflect bullets.

    Same logic.
    Singular_Transform
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    Post  Singular_Transform Thu Jul 05, 2018 3:06 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:

    I don't remember telling you anything so fuck off

    Next time you want to insult people get a reason first




    As for this moron and statement in that article: only reason Su-35 was purchased was to fill the numbers of fighter aviation since Su-57 was being delayed. They never wanted Su-35 but they had to get something to fill the numbers.

    Now they have clowns lobbying to peddle more of them while they pocket the money they got from designing Su-57.

    If they plan on sticking with 4gen aircraft then Su-30 is the one they will be getting because that one is already ordered in large numbers while orders for Su-35 stopped.

    And excuse this asshole is giving is insult to intelligence: "We can make super airplane any time we want, this one is superior to enemy's but inferior for our amazing needs"

    Bullshit of the highest order!!! You are barely making this one.

    They have already abandoned Gorshkov frigates and Soyuz-5 rockets and now Su-57 is on the chopping block because it's "transitional product"? Transition to what? Soviet era hardware?

    What's next to go out? My guess T-14 Armata because why bother with it when they will design Optimus Prime in 5 years to handle land warfare? In the meantime T-64 will do just fine because soon they will have Optimus Prime. Any day now...

    They should just get rid of kevlar vests too. Troops can just exercise and have awesome abs which will deflect bullets.

    Same logic.

    What if they recognised the extreme cost of making/maintain the stealth aircrafts?

    The US military used composed of cheap, not top performer but mass produced units.

    Maybe Russia recognised the boundaries of the budget too : )
    miketheterrible
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    Post  miketheterrible Thu Jul 05, 2018 3:15 pm

    Alright, let's clear some air here.

    * Su-57 is to replace current T-10 platform (Su-27, 30, 35), with 35 being the last of the model.

    * Su-57 is nearly ready for full production. It has only to wait on the engines. NPO ISTOk has already produced over 25,000 T/R modules from an interview over a year ago (so much more now) and so their radar system has been more than ready.

    * We don't know the cost of per plane until we see a contract signed. Su-35 is at the ~$30M per plane mark much like majority of the other jets (Su-34, 30, MiG-35). Su-57 will be more costly at first but will eventually drop to the lower end in near future.

    * Some are dreaming of 6th gen, but we don't really know what 6th gen is yet so no point talking about it.

    * Current plan is for 12 Su-57's by 2025. That number can easily change since nothing is in writing.

    Generational comparison is pointless. Current Russian jets are fitted out with abilities to combat 5th gen jets quite well. Mostly passive detection. That is how it is to be done for even Su-57, it's just a lot less visible than the previous jets. It's need is obvious but it isn't critical.

    And I laugh at the 2,500 F-35 concept. F-35 while a decent opponent, no point in worrying about it. It's a F-4 2.0. it's a boat that flies with various problems but neat and stealthy. Which that can be combated rather easily.

    Russia won't have thousands of Su-57's either. Their fighter fleet will be max 700 jets and bomber/intercepter fleet (Su-34 and MiG-31) will bring that to around 1,200 aircraft. Su-57 won't be replacing either the MiG-31 or the Su-34 in a long time or at all.

    Edit: @Papa there are no new orders for any jet because the previous orders are not completed yet. Su-35 will be ordered in more numbers too. You are right though, they didn't want it initially.
    Big_Gazza
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    Post  Big_Gazza Thu Jul 05, 2018 3:31 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:Alright, let's clear some air here.

    * Su-57 is to replace current T-10 platform (Su-27, 30, 35), with 35 being the last of the model.

    * Su-57 is nearly ready for full production. It has only to wait on the engines. NPO ISTOk has already produced over 25,000 T/R modules from an interview over a year ago (so much more now) and so their radar system has been more than ready.

    * We don't know the cost of per plane until we see a contract signed. Su-35 is at the ~$30M per plane mark much like majority of the other jets (Su-34, 30, MiG-35). Su-57 will be more costly at first but will eventually drop to the lower end in near future.

    * Some are dreaming of 6th gen, but we don't really know what 6th gen is yet so no point talking about it.

    * Current plan is for 12 Su-57's by 2025. That number can easily change since nothing is in writing.

    Generational comparison is pointless. Current Russian jets are fitted out with abilities to combat 5th gen jets quite well. Mostly passive detection. That is how it is to be done for even Su-57, it's just a lot less visible than the previous jets. It's need is obvious but it isn't critical.

    And I laugh at the 2,500 F-35 concept. F-35 while a decent opponent, no point in worrying about it. It's a F-4 2.0. it's a boat that flies with various problems but neat and stealthy. Which that can be combated rather easily.

    Russia won't have thousands of Su-57's either. Their fighter fleet will be max 700 jets and bomber/intercepter fleet (Su-34 and MiG-31) will bring that to around 1,200 aircraft. Su-57 won't be replacing either the MiG-31 or the Su-34 in a long time or at all.

    Edit: @Papa there are no new orders for any jet because the previous orders are not completed yet. Su-35 will be ordered in more numbers too.  You are right though, they didn't want it initially.

    A sensible evaluation. It makes a refreshing change in this place...
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    Post  Mindstorm Thu Jul 05, 2018 7:32 pm


    https://ria.ru/arms/20180705/1523969717.html

    Something say to me that words of Владимир Гутенев on the mission of Су-57 in Syria was previously not reported to the letter; the data obtained in the mission there was obviously related to the range of tracking of F-22 and F-35 present in the theatre of operation Wink
    Hole
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    Post  Hole Thu Jul 05, 2018 10:23 pm

    Regarding the numbers, we have to keep in mind that the F-22 fills the roles of a fighter, interceptor, bomber. Same for the F-35. The Su-57 is also a multi-role plane, but Russia will also develop a special inteceptor (MiG-41?). The VKS will therefore receive the Su-57 (100 - 150) plus the interceptor (100+). This planes will only be used against peer competitors. Remember that even countries like Germany, France and England are not on the same level als Russia. Against such countries Russia will use Su-30/-34/-35. The role of the F-35 will be filled mostly by drones like the Okhotnik.
    Pierre Sprey
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    Post  Pierre Sprey Thu Jul 05, 2018 11:11 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Pierre Sprey wrote:..
    PapaDragon wrote:
    .

    They have the money and the capability. They are choosing not to you dumb fool. ....,

    I don't remember telling you anything so fuck off

    c.

    Seems you are interpreting all of the news about the su 57 through the USA propagandist lense. And they are even quoting your freakout as proof of their propaganda sophistry.

    I still don't even know what happened.
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    Post  kvs Thu Jul 05, 2018 11:49 pm

    The tiny numbers being quoted in this thread on Su-57 purchases are hilarious BS. Why bother developing the Su-57 without
    using it? Some worthless interview establishes precisely nothing about the government purchasing program through 2027.
    The only interview that would count would be Putin saying that we have achieved a nice prototype but can't afford it because
    of pension or other BS excuse. This ain't gonna happen.
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    Post  LMFS Fri Jul 06, 2018 4:50 am

    The impression reading what Gutenev said about Su-57 and 6G fighters is he is not really talking about actual plans but about possibilities that have been blown out of proportion because it was said by some Russian official, notwithstanding the fact that so many times with Russian language the sense gets lost in translation. Keep in mind that disinformation is also a possibility, so to jump out of the window just because of some outlandish claims contradicted by the rest of evidence does not seem smart.

    By the way, is it that for instance the F-22 has been procured in big numbers? No. Almost 15 years after being operational, the backbone of the USAF are still F-16 and F-15, since 5G fighters are per se a luxury item. Let's see how many F-35 are built before someone calls out the scam. It wouldn't make sense that the Su-57 replaces all 4 and 4,5G fighters straightaway and it is also logic that the airframe can be upgraded later on with microwave weapons, active skin and all the new concepts associated to 6G. Given the costs of newer aircraft and the development pipeline we hear for the Su-57, this platform is here to stay for the best part of the current century I think.

    Regarding Syria, some people are thinking Gutenev either leaked unknown information regarding 4x T-50 visiting the country or was just mistaken. Difficult to know. Also there has been confusion and claims that the sentence pointed out by Mindstorm some posts before in reality indicates the admission that the T-50 was tracked by the American fighters, therefore proving its stealth is "fake" and not the other way around. But I trust rather a Russian reliable contributor that can read the original statements than foreign guys with an agenda that can be smelled from a country mile. I suspect the visit was longer than stated and probably terminated immediately after being disclosed or leaked, would be incredibly interesting to know what those planes did in Syria in reality Very Happy

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