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    PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    Singular_Transform
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    Post  Singular_Transform Sun Jul 08, 2018 11:20 pm

    Pierre Sprey wrote:
    Singular_Transform wrote:I think the above issue with the training is the reason why they want to use beyond viasual range weaons, powerfull radards, networked aircrafts and so on.



    That is the reason why the indians and the russian MOD is not so enthusiastic about the SU57 I think.




    This is complete twaddle. First off, the whole Indian airforce vs Pak Fa thing was a political witchhunt by US. Brown envelopes were being passed to IAF offcials to black ball the pak fa for political reasons. The Indian pilots love their su 30 MKI's. It makes no sense that they wouldn't like the same thing that's lighter, with more power, better payload, kinematics and stealth.

    And secondly, the su 57 doesn't use the same shitty RAM that is used on the F-22. The su 57 just uses more composite surfacing. Which is a way better way to do it.


    The f35mainanance cost lower by 20% compared to the f22.
    So, is we say that the su57 is on the same level like the f35 then the mainanance cost of it is still three-four times higher than say the Su 27 hourly cost.

    We can say that the su57 has the same issues like the f22/35.

    Maybe they decreased the manufacturing / maintanance cost of the su57, but that increase the radar cross section.
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    Post  mnztr Mon Jul 09, 2018 6:09 am

    you can make no such conclusion in maint costs. Russian salaries are much lower and par will be muchh cheaper.
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    Post  Pierre Sprey Mon Jul 09, 2018 6:44 pm

    Singular_Transform wrote:
    Pierre Sprey wrote:
    Singular_Transform wrote:I think the above issue with the training is the reason why they want to use beyond viasual range weaons, powerfull radards, networked aircrafts and so on.



    That is the reason why the indians and the russian MOD is not so enthusiastic about the SU57 I think.




    This is complete twaddle. First off, the whole Indian airforce vs Pak Fa thing was a political witchhunt by US. Brown envelopes were being passed to IAF offcials to black ball the pak fa for political reasons. The Indian pilots love their su 30 MKI's. It makes no sense that they wouldn't like the same thing that's lighter, with more power, better payload, kinematics and stealth.

    And secondly, the su 57 doesn't use the same shitty RAM that is used on the F-22. The su 57 just uses more composite surfacing. Which is a way better way to do it.



    The f35mainanance cost lower by 20% compared to the f22.
    So, is we say that the su57 is on the same level like the f35 then the mainanance cost of it is still three-four times higher than say the Su 27 hourly cost.

    We can say that  the su57 has the same issues like the f22/35.

    Maybe they decreased the manufacturing / maintanance cost of the su57, but that increase the radar cross section.

    This is BS. It is a classified program. The Russian Ram is lower maintenance and they are confindent that it works. Otherwise they wouldn't use it. The RCS has to be as good as the F-22-35. That's the whole point of the program
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    Post  Singular_Transform Mon Jul 09, 2018 6:46 pm

    mnztr wrote:you can make no such conclusion in maint costs. Russian salaries are much lower and par will be muchh cheaper.

    So, the Su-57 maintenance personnel will receive less money than the su27 ? Say three times less to make up the difference?
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    Post  George1 Mon Jul 09, 2018 9:26 pm

    New G-suit for Russia’s 5th-generation fighter jet ready for flight tests

    The suit prototypes have already undergone tests on a centrifuge with test persons

    MOSCOW, July 9. /TASS/. A new anti-gravity suit designed for pilots of the Sukhoi Su-57 fifth-generation fighter jet has been prepared for flight tests, CEO of the Zvezda Research and Production Enterprise (the G-suit’s developer) Sergei Pozdnyakov told TASS on Monday.

    "Our full-size suit is a one-piece outfit, which presses firmly on the arms and the larger part of the body. The tests have shown that we comply with the requirements for G tolerance. Its flight capabilities are planned to be tested, after which we will decide what to do further," the chief executive said, without specifying the timeframe of the tests.

    The suit prototypes have already undergone tests on a centrifuge with test persons.

    During the plane’s maneuvers, the G-suit prevents the drain of blood from the brain to the abdomen and the legs.

    The chief executive earlier told TASS that the deliveries of the new G-suit would begin no sooner than 2019. Five such suits have been delivered to the Sukhoi Aircraft Company and the tests will last about six months, he said.


    More:
    http://tass.com/defense/1012403
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    Post  JohninMK Mon Jul 09, 2018 9:33 pm

    Why will the pilot of an Su-57 need a different G-suit to that of a pilot of an Su-35 or 30?
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    Post  LMFS Mon Jul 09, 2018 9:38 pm

    JohninMK wrote:Why will the pilot of an Su-57 need a different G-suit to that of a pilot of an Su-35 or 30?
    Bogdan mentioned that the g-loads were extended for longer periods of time in the 5G aircraft. Bigger wing area/lift, higher thrust and cruise speed, better construction all push the limits of the pilot
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    Post  JohninMK Mon Jul 09, 2018 9:41 pm

    LMFS wrote:
    JohninMK wrote:Why will the pilot of an Su-57 need a different G-suit to that of a pilot of an Su-35 or 30?
    Bogdan mentioned that the g-loads were extended for longer periods of time in the 5G aircraft. Bigger wing area/lift, higher thrust and cruise speed, better construction all push the limits of the pilot
    Thanks, I thought there had to be a good reason.
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    Post  Guest Tue Jul 10, 2018 12:28 am

    Isos wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:
    Azi wrote:
    Pierre Sprey wrote:What a load of lame ass excuses. "not made for desert countries" Lol wtf

    Please. Please made 1700 of these slow pieces of shit with small wings that will have a hard time out running a Mig 21
    Yes...?! pwnd

    I take your post very serious! lol! How good is the chance for a Mig-21 to come in dogfight range close to a F-35? Can you give me a specific number or not?

    You will be surprised how well a MiG-21bis did in various exercises in red flag. Went up against newer F-16's and F-15's.

    If given the right upgrades (newer radar of higher education class, plenty of countermeasure systems and integrated sensors to pick up and locate signals, the MiG-21 would do wonders
    Oh, and update the engines and PowerSupply for sure.

    Russian showed to indian some rcs reduction applied to mig-21 and they were surprised how it worked well. They showed them on radar and the difference was very big. Mig-21 is already in its design stealth with small size, very simple geometry, engine hiden in the plane.

    Many aesa radars are offered for mig-21 by eastern countries and israel.

    Add nice jammer like msp-418 or the one called "satellit" on which you can put a r-73 missile, both drfm capable and you are practically safe from amraam.

    With such aircraft you can easily go into dogfight against f-35 and even f-22. Indian mig-21 were very hard to lock on during redflag because of jaming and small rcs.

    Which AESA radar for MiG-21 exactly are you talking here about?

    Also, those exercises are with extremly strict rules of engagement, special scenarios that put one or another side in advantage so its pointless to talk though it again as it was debunked like 500 times already how MiG-21s "slaughtered F-15s" and whatnot else Sandokans claimed.
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    Post  PapaDragon Tue Jul 10, 2018 2:35 am

    Militarov wrote:...and whatnot else Sandokans claimed.

    Wow, there's a blast from the past and I am talking about second hand knowledge from 3 decades ago here... lol1
    Isos
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    Post  Isos Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:09 am

    Which AESA radar for MiG-21 exactly are you talking here about?


    http://www.mig-21.de/english/technicaldataupgrades.htm

    Kopyo radar is peoposed with 70km against 5m2 target by russia (not aesa however).

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/EL/M-2032 from israel with 100 km against 1m2 target.

    My bad they are not aesa bur still very good radars for such small plane.


    As aesa there is this one:

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhuk_(radar)

    Zhuk-AU/AUE Edit
    On-board radar system with active phased array antenna, made with the same technology as Zhuk-AM, standardized for installation on different types of aircraft including drones. Can also be installed/carried in pods.

    Zhuk-AU/AUE comes in following versions.

    FGA 51.1 - A forward-looking "X" band AESA radar

    FGA 51.2 - A side-looking "X" band AESA radar

    FGA 51.3 - A side-looking "P" band AESA radar


    Also, those exercises are with extremly strict rules of engagement, special scenarios that put one or another side in advantage so its pointless to talk though it again as it was debunked like 500 times already how MiG-21s "slaughtered F-15s" and whatnot else Sandokans claimed.

    Well no need exercice to know that a mig 21 which already has a small rcs thanks to it small size and simple design could, with some rcs reduction, a good ecm pod and two r-77 plus two r-73, win against a f-15.

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    Post  Guest Tue Jul 10, 2018 6:27 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Militarov wrote:...and whatnot else Sandokans claimed.

    Wow, there's a blast from the past and I am talking about second hand knowledge from 3 decades ago here... lol1

    Kabir Bedi ftw xD
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    Post  Pierre Sprey Thu Jul 12, 2018 1:35 am

    The amount of mental retardation that keeps coming up in the western media on the su 57 is just mind numbing. Look at this useless Business Insider hit piece. This is the kind of sophistry that is being used to degrade the pride of the Russian fleet. And Russia fans have been buying into it. Please stop. No. The F-22 is not more stealthy than the su 57. Nothing these mother f--ing America stronkists have ever said, is an honest critique of the aircraft.

    Russia's "fifth-generation," "combat-tested," "stealth" fighter jet has a lot of dubious claims made about it, but recent close-up photography of the plane from Russia's Victory Day parade on May 9 reveals it's just not a stealth jet.

    Business Insider asked a senior scientist working on stealth aircraft how to evaluate the plane's stealth, and the results were not good.
    Take a look at the pictures below and see if you can spot what's wrong:

    PAK-FA, T-50: News #4 - Page 36 Businessins1_1_by_kgb950-dcgyb4o

    [img]https://img00.deviantart.net/630a/i/2018/192/3/9/businessins1_1_by_kgb950-dcgyb4o.png[/img

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    Post  Pierre Sprey Thu Jul 12, 2018 1:38 am

    PAK-FA, T-50: News #4 - Page 36 Businessins2_2_by_kgb950-dcgybg0



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    Post  Pierre Sprey Thu Jul 12, 2018 1:49 am

    PAK-FA, T-50: News #4 - Page 36 Businessins3_3_by_kgb950-dcgyd7p

    Oh and the expert himself chimes in..

    As the scientist said, Russia didn't even appear to seriously try to make a stealth aircraft. The Su-57 takes certain measures, like storing weapons internally, that improve the stealth, but it's leaps and bounds from a US or even Chinese effort.

    The Su-57 will feature side mounted radars along its nose, an infrared search-and-track radar up front, and additional radars in front and back, as well as on the wings.
    As The Drive's Tyler Rogoway writes, the side-mounted radars on the Su-57 allow it to excel at a tactic called "beaming" that can trick the radars on US stealth jets. Beaming entails flying perpendicular to a fighter's radar in a way that makes the fighter dismiss the signature of the jet as a non-target.
    Any fighter can "beam" by flying sideways, but the Su-57, with sideways-mounted radars, can actually guide missiles and score kills from that direction.


    This is your western defense media folks.
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    Post  kvs Thu Jul 12, 2018 3:00 am

    This sort of retarded propaganda can be spewed because the education system has been degraded substantially over
    the last 50 years. Some dipshit "expert" is claiming the thin edge is a bigger reflector of EM radiation than those oversized
    rudders of the F-22. Breathtaking inanity. The backscatter from a wire is much less than from any 2D extensive surface
    for obvious physical reasons. It's all about the cross-sectional area. Clearly the small Su-57 rudder edge is a non-issue.
    By contrast, the F-22 cannot fly at just the right angle to minimize the reflection from its rudders. With several radar
    units, the F-22 basically can't hide its rudders and all of those zig-zag edges and 2D fancy engine nozzles become worthless.
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    Post  kvs Thu Jul 12, 2018 3:02 am

    Pierre Sprey wrote:PAK-FA, T-50: News #4 - Page 36 Businessins2_2_by_kgb950-dcgybg0




    Following the claims of this retarded "expert", there are plenty of edges in the F-22 hull and control surfaces to provide all sorts
    of "non stealth" radar backscatter.

    The west is going full retard. It can't even see the obvious contradictions in its own drivel.
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    Post  Pierre Sprey Thu Jul 12, 2018 4:18 am

    Are you a Russian KVS ?

    What do Russian ppl think when they see stuff like this ? The scornful and condescending tone. In a mainstream publication. This is the quality of material that they spread around the world about your economy too.


    The western mainstream really doesn't like you. They really don't respect you and they really have a problem with you.
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    Post  kvs Thu Jul 12, 2018 5:43 am

    Pierre Sprey wrote:Are you a Russian KVS ?

    What do Russian ppl think when they see stuff like this ? The scornful and condescending tone. In a mainstream publication. This is the quality of material that they spread around the world about your economy too.


    The western mainstream really doesn't like you. They really don't respect you and they really have a problem with you.

    I am living in the west since the 1970s. But I have relatives in Russia and Ukraine.

    Russians do not see the full hate spew in their media since there is a Russian media that does not parrot the US-dominated western
    MSM. But part of this Russian media does parrot the western propaganda to a small audience. There are some current events shows
    on TV where the western propaganda is the topic of discussion. Basically, the ridiculous nonsense you mention is the best
    counter-propaganda.

    However, most Russians do not have a negative view of the west and do not get riled up into anti-western hate on the drop of
    a dime. It will take many years of western blood libel to sour the views of Russians of the west. But even then, the average
    Russian will not hate the average westerner. They will properly target the western elites.

    Unfortunately, there is a hard core western sycophant fraction of the Russian population (around 5% but up to 10%) that hates
    Russia and thinks that all the excrement that is put out by the western media is God's truth. This fringe is what the western
    media claims is the true voice of Russia and the comprador politicians (e.g. Navalny) that represent this fringe are deemed the
    "Russian opposition".

    As for the western elites not liking Russians. This is normal for the last 1000 years. The so-called "drang nach osten" is the
    centuries old demonization and attempts at invasion of Russia. The crusader Teutonic Knights were trying to regime change
    Russia back in the 1100s. Even Poland tried to regime change in the name of the Vatican around 1600. The Grand-Duchy
    of Lithuania was a greater Poland project that ruled over most of the original Kievan Rus in what is now known as Ukraine.
    (The name Ukraine did not exist 200 years ago). This did not last. But then we had Napoleon trying to "civilize the savages"
    in the early 1800s. He got his ass handed on a platter to him and came up with the retarded excuse that he was defeated
    by General Winter even though the key battles happened in September long before any winter. General Winter helped to
    whittle down Napoleon's Grande Arme when it was retreating. Then we have Hitler who was also claiming to put the
    untermenschen in their place. After 1942 his campaign lost the initiative. Naturally, General Winter saved the Russians even
    though there were a couple of summers that did not help the Germans.

    America is taking up Hitler's drang nach osten. As with the Nazis, American politicians think they are exceptional and that
    a manifest destiny guarantees their victory over the Russian savages. As recently mouthed by US politicians, Russia
    is a gas station posing as a country and a "mafia state". Much like Hitler, they actually believe that Russia is a rotten
    facade that will crumble in the face of NATO conventional forces. I guess America has spent too many decades fighting
    3rd world countries and no longer remembers that Germany gave it a hard time even though 80% of Germany's war resources
    were tied up on the eastern front. American trash talk about Russia strikes me as pathetically weak and insecure. Anybody
    with a clue would know that as of 2018, Russia has its act together and is much better shape than 1991 when it comes to
    its economy and actual military potential. If NATO tries to pull a Barbarossa on Russia, it will experience vastly more resistance
    than Hitler faced in 1941.
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    Post  LMFS Thu Jul 12, 2018 12:07 pm

    @kvs: yes, they would be crushed and they know it perfectly. So they cling to their centuries-long, tried and tested Anglo-Saxon true core competence: propaganda.

    They simply are not going to let their stealth myth go away that easily, will constantly dig at the PAK-FA or any other Russian LO design as fake stealth because a good share of their prestige (and intimidation capacity) depend on being the only ones mastering these technologies. It is utterly pathetic BS living on borrowed time due to the existence and increasing proliferation of modern AD systems like the S-400. Soon this scam will be fully busted, but in the meantime we have to endure the massive amounts of crap repeated by certain drones... Rolling Eyes
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    Post  Pierre Sprey Thu Jul 12, 2018 7:31 pm

    PAK-FA, T-50: News #4 - Page 36 Thediplomat1_1_by_kgb950-dch0mdr
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    Post  Pierre Sprey Thu Jul 12, 2018 7:32 pm

    This is The National Interest which is a military publication. It actually links to the |Business Insider nonsense hit piece that I posted yesterday. Did National Interest even bother to check the story ? See if anything in it was fact based ? No.

    Note the side topics.

    PAK-FA, T-50: News #4 - Page 36 Businessinsider5_by_kgb950-dch073v
    miketheterrible
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    Post  miketheterrible Thu Jul 12, 2018 8:15 pm

    I'm surprised any of you guys are....surprised by the (s)hit pieces by Western publications. Of course it's all nonsense. Why talk about it. Yeah, they don't talk about J-20 even with it's older engines and questionable everything cause while China is a rival, it isn't a traditional enemy like Russia is.

    Let's just talk about the plane rather than cry over what retards write.
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    Post  Hole Thu Jul 12, 2018 9:46 pm

    The greatest BS is the small piece left. "How an F-15 could beat an Su-57 in a dogfight". An F-15 couldn´t beat a F-4 in a dogfight. Has someone ever seen a F-15 doing maneuvres like the Su-57 did at MAKS? Man! These morons are… angry
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    Post  miketheterrible Thu Jul 12, 2018 10:16 pm

    F-15 doesn't hold a candle to Su-30 or 35 in dog fighting. Let alone against an Su-27.

    Guys, seriously, give up on this. Complaining here of the drivel from US is a pointless endeavor.

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