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Now this is interesting. Ukropistan army is running out of ammo and they still waste it by daily firing on Novorussian villages and towns to terrorize civilian population. But in military terms this mean Novorussian artillery is now far more powerful that ukrop artillery simply by bigger stocks of ammo, which they capture from ukis in Debaltsevo and other battles and Novorussia also produce new ammo in their factory in Lugansk, which was only ammo factory in Ukraine. In new war Ukropistan army will be without artillery support, because they will run out of ammo and Novorussian army is keeping their ammo exactly for this event and not answer to provocations. Destruction of ukrops in new war by novorussian artillery will be epic and novorussian army is now far more professional than ukrops with similar size of units although their armor units are around half of size of ukrops.
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52 posters
The Situation in the Ukraine. #26
medo- Posts : 4342
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Join date : 2010-10-24
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franco- Posts : 6710
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Join date : 2010-08-18
medo wrote:Now this is interesting. Ukropistan army is running out of ammo and they still waste it by daily firing on Novorussian villages and towns to terrorize civilian population. But in military terms this mean Novorussian artillery is now far more powerful that ukrop artillery simply by bigger stocks of ammo, which they capture from ukis in Debaltsevo and other battles and Novorussia also produce new ammo in their factory in Lugansk, which was only ammo factory in Ukraine. In new war Ukropistan army will be without artillery support, because they will run out of ammo and Novorussian army is keeping their ammo exactly for this event and not answer to provocations. Destruction of ukrops in new war by novorussian artillery will be epic and novorussian army is now far more professional than ukrops with similar size of units although their armor units are around half of size of ukrops.
It doesn't matter the size of the dog in the fight but matters instead the size of the fight in the dog.
JohninMK- Posts : 14709
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Especially when there is a big bear friend nearby.franco wrote:
It doesn't matter the size of the dog in the fight but matters instead the size of the fight in the dog.
I still believe that Kiev, ahead of any military plans, has to have the prime strategic objective of hitting the economic viability of Donbas. So what seems to have happened is critical to that. It looks like Ukops might not have enough barrel artillery rounds to do serious damage to Donbas infrastructure under cover of the first hours of any attack. They will be reliant on much more visible rocket artillery, which could attract the bear's claws.
Ispan- Posts : 643
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Join date : 2015-07-10
Age : 47
Location : Madrid
medo wrote:Now this is interesting. Ukropistan army is running out of ammo
They may still have enough for one year, less if there's a big battle, maybe a few months, but the end is near.
. But in military terms this mean Novorussian artillery is now far more powerful that ukrop artillery simply by bigger stocks of ammo, which they capture from ukis in Debaltsevo and other battles
Most was taken in depots sited prewar by Yuschenko government in anticipation of a Russian invasion. The advantage of Novorussian artillery is precision. But they will have more ammo than the enemy if the final showdown comes. Perhaps there's more coming from Russia.
and Novorussia also produce new ammo in their factory in Lugansk,
That just makes small arms cartridges, though in theory it should be possible to make shells and bombs in Donetsk, they have all the industries and raw resources in place, but if they make ammo, then it's a secret.
I think they don't make new shells, they have enough captured stocks plus Russian supplies.
Destruction of ukrops in new war by novorussian artillery will be epic and novorussian army is now far more professional than ukrops with similar size of units although their armor units are around half of size of ukrops.
More importantly, Ukie tank force is suffering from the lack of spares and wear, so they have less serviceable tanks that numbers suggest. Novorussian tankers are certainly better trained.
Hoping for one climactic final battle, but I think the junta will waste itself all throughout this year, before Russia allows for a big push.
medo- Posts : 4342
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Ispan wrote:That just makes small arms cartridges, though in theory it should be possible to make shells and bombs in Donetsk, they have all the industries and raw resources in place, but if they make ammo, then it's a secret.
I think they don't make new shells, they have enough captured stocks plus Russian supplies.
I still well remember, that at the beginning of war in Donbass novorussian forces posses a factory, which produce Grad rockets and artillery shells and that they in that time didn't have any Grad or howitzer to use them. I don't know, how much this factory was damaged in war, but in this time of "peace" they could restart production.
Ispan- Posts : 643
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Khepesh will love this. Accounting for all T-64 tanks in Ukraine
http://kloch4.livejournal.com/2016/12/10/
They should have 530 tanks on paper, but after losing 200, they could only maintan that strength by cannibalizing the rest of the fleet.
http://kloch4.livejournal.com/2016/12/10/
They should have 530 tanks on paper, but after losing 200, they could only maintan that strength by cannibalizing the rest of the fleet.
JohninMK- Posts : 14709
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Every so often someone kicks the ashes of MH-17
The Dutch police will examine the objects collected by the journalists at the site of the crash of Boeing MH17 aircraft in Ukraine, Wim de Bruin, the spokesman for the Dutch state prosecutor's office, said Tuesday.
On Saturday, Dutch police had confiscated materials concerning the MH17 crash from two independent Dutch journalists, Stefan Beck and Michel Spekkers, upon their arrival to the Netherlands from Donbas. Beck and Spekkers had gone to Ukraine to examine the site of the crash and to speak to the local residents. "The objects that Spekkers took from the site of the crash will be examined by the police," the spokesman told RIA Novosti.
Amsterdam police redirected all journalists' questions to the prosecutor's office.
Read more: https://sputniknews.com/europe/201701101049431413-netherlands-nh17-crash-investigation/
The Dutch police will examine the objects collected by the journalists at the site of the crash of Boeing MH17 aircraft in Ukraine, Wim de Bruin, the spokesman for the Dutch state prosecutor's office, said Tuesday.
On Saturday, Dutch police had confiscated materials concerning the MH17 crash from two independent Dutch journalists, Stefan Beck and Michel Spekkers, upon their arrival to the Netherlands from Donbas. Beck and Spekkers had gone to Ukraine to examine the site of the crash and to speak to the local residents. "The objects that Spekkers took from the site of the crash will be examined by the police," the spokesman told RIA Novosti.
Amsterdam police redirected all journalists' questions to the prosecutor's office.
Read more: https://sputniknews.com/europe/201701101049431413-netherlands-nh17-crash-investigation/
Guest- Guest
JohninMK wrote:Every so often someone kicks the ashes of MH-17
The Dutch police will examine the objects collected by the journalists at the site of the crash of Boeing MH17 aircraft in Ukraine, Wim de Bruin, the spokesman for the Dutch state prosecutor's office, said Tuesday.
On Saturday, Dutch police had confiscated materials concerning the MH17 crash from two independent Dutch journalists, Stefan Beck and Michel Spekkers, upon their arrival to the Netherlands from Donbas. Beck and Spekkers had gone to Ukraine to examine the site of the crash and to speak to the local residents. "The objects that Spekkers took from the site of the crash will be examined by the police," the spokesman told RIA Novosti.
Amsterdam police redirected all journalists' questions to the prosecutor's office.
Read more: https://sputniknews.com/europe/201701101049431413-netherlands-nh17-crash-investigation/
Since when is third of forth hand item reconsidered as evidence in police investigation? Let alone something collected by "independent journalists". Sounds like one of those "proofs" they gathered on Kosovo in 1999.
JohninMK- Posts : 14709
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Join date : 2015-06-16
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The incoming Secretary of State on Crimea/Russia. My highlight and I thought they did just that, but failed anyway.
Tillerson talks tough on Crimea, Ukraine
Tillerson was far less equivocal about Putin’s seizure of Crimea and said that were it up to him, the United States would have taken a far more hawkish stance toward Putin when it came to helping defend Ukraine’s territorial sovereignty.
Sen. Ben Cardin (D-Md.) asked Tillerson whether Russia had a legal claim to the Crimean Peninsula, to which the Texan replied: “No sir. That was a taking of territory that was not theirs.”
Asked what he would have done differently, Tillerson went even further, laying out ways the United States and Ukraine should have taken a far more aggressive stance to curb Russia’s creep into Ukrainian territory. He called that an “illegal action” and said that Russian leaders viewed the United States’s actions afterward as a “very weak response.”
“I would have recommended that Ukraine take all of the military assets that it had available, put them on the eastern border … [and] announce that the U.S. was going to provide them intelligence,” Tillerson said. “I think what Russia would have understood was a more robust response. 'You’ve taken Crimea, let’s stop here.'”
Tillerson talks tough on Crimea, Ukraine
Tillerson was far less equivocal about Putin’s seizure of Crimea and said that were it up to him, the United States would have taken a far more hawkish stance toward Putin when it came to helping defend Ukraine’s territorial sovereignty.
Sen. Ben Cardin (D-Md.) asked Tillerson whether Russia had a legal claim to the Crimean Peninsula, to which the Texan replied: “No sir. That was a taking of territory that was not theirs.”
Asked what he would have done differently, Tillerson went even further, laying out ways the United States and Ukraine should have taken a far more aggressive stance to curb Russia’s creep into Ukrainian territory. He called that an “illegal action” and said that Russian leaders viewed the United States’s actions afterward as a “very weak response.”
“I would have recommended that Ukraine take all of the military assets that it had available, put them on the eastern border … [and] announce that the U.S. was going to provide them intelligence,” Tillerson said. “I think what Russia would have understood was a more robust response. 'You’ve taken Crimea, let’s stop here.'”
Benya- Posts : 526
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Location : Budapest, Hungary
Ceasefire regime finished in Donbass, situation is getting worse
on: January 11, 2017
Donetsk Commandment announced about sharp worsening of the situation at the touch line in Donbass, Ukrainian military units shelled the DPR territory 900 times for the last 24 hours.
Basurin specified that the hostility launched 24 artillery shellsб 11 tank salvos, 269 mines and 527 different grenades were launched.
Villages as Zaytsevo, Ozeryanovka, Nizhnetoretskoe, Mihaylovka, Yasinovataya, Zhabichevo, Trudovskie and Aleksandrovka of Donetsk were subjected to shelling. Moreover, Kiev troops tried to break through the DPR positions in the village Spartak in the north of Donetsk.
Source:
http://novorossia.today/ceasefire-regime-finished-in-donbass-situation-is-getting-worse/
What could get even worse? A full-scale Ukrainian assault on DPR, even it is not really that imminent?
on: January 11, 2017
Donetsk Commandment announced about sharp worsening of the situation at the touch line in Donbass, Ukrainian military units shelled the DPR territory 900 times for the last 24 hours.
Basurin specified that the hostility launched 24 artillery shellsб 11 tank salvos, 269 mines and 527 different grenades were launched.
Villages as Zaytsevo, Ozeryanovka, Nizhnetoretskoe, Mihaylovka, Yasinovataya, Zhabichevo, Trudovskie and Aleksandrovka of Donetsk were subjected to shelling. Moreover, Kiev troops tried to break through the DPR positions in the village Spartak in the north of Donetsk.
Source:
http://novorossia.today/ceasefire-regime-finished-in-donbass-situation-is-getting-worse/What could get even worse? A full-scale Ukrainian assault on DPR, even it is not really that imminent?
franco- Posts : 6710
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JohninMK wrote:The incoming Secretary of State on Crimea/Russia. My highlight and I thought they did just that, but failed anyway.
Tillerson talks tough on Crimea, Ukraine
Tillerson was far less equivocal about Putin’s seizure of Crimea and said that were it up to him, the United States would have taken a far more hawkish stance toward Putin when it came to helping defend Ukraine’s territorial sovereignty.
Sen. Ben Cardin (D-Md.) asked Tillerson whether Russia had a legal claim to the Crimean Peninsula, to which the Texan replied: “No sir. That was a taking of territory that was not theirs.”
Asked what he would have done differently, Tillerson went even further, laying out ways the United States and Ukraine should have taken a far more aggressive stance to curb Russia’s creep into Ukrainian territory. He called that an “illegal action” and said that Russian leaders viewed the United States’s actions afterward as a “very weak response.”
“I would have recommended that Ukraine take all of the military assets that it had available, put them on the eastern border … [and] announce that the U.S. was going to provide them intelligence,” Tillerson said. “I think what Russia would have understood was a more robust response. 'You’ve taken Crimea, let’s stop here.'”
He can't be Secretary of State if he doesn't convince these morons he is as stupid as them
and we make funny of the Ukies with the country 404 phrase 
eehnie- Posts : 2425
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Join date : 2015-05-13
franco wrote:JohninMK wrote:The incoming Secretary of State on Crimea/Russia. My highlight and I thought they did just that, but failed anyway.
Tillerson talks tough on Crimea, Ukraine
Tillerson was far less equivocal about Putin’s seizure of Crimea and said that were it up to him, the United States would have taken a far more hawkish stance toward Putin when it came to helping defend Ukraine’s territorial sovereignty.
Sen. Ben Cardin (D-Md.) asked Tillerson whether Russia had a legal claim to the Crimean Peninsula, to which the Texan replied: “No sir. That was a taking of territory that was not theirs.”
Asked what he would have done differently, Tillerson went even further, laying out ways the United States and Ukraine should have taken a far more aggressive stance to curb Russia’s creep into Ukrainian territory. He called that an “illegal action” and said that Russian leaders viewed the United States’s actions afterward as a “very weak response.”
“I would have recommended that Ukraine take all of the military assets that it had available, put them on the eastern border … [and] announce that the U.S. was going to provide them intelligence,” Tillerson said. “I think what Russia would have understood was a more robust response. 'You’ve taken Crimea, let’s stop here.'”
He can't be Secretary of State if he doesn't convince these morons he is as stupid as them
Better to fall not in wishful thinking. He and Trump are almost the same than the others.
The new gouvernment of the US is a gouvernment of rich oligarchs.
Ispan- Posts : 643
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This was published in the magazine of a spanish newspaper. Is a journalist story on the Donbass battallion 
Surprisingly honest in saying the Ukrainian army is crap and drunken scum and the locals hate the soldiers.
This is allegedly one of the men in the article, what kind of a Kalashnikov is that? Article says it's an old AK from 1963, and yes, I can see the slanted muzzle of the AKM, but everything else has been customized in a "tacticool" way. I think from the size of the magazine it may be indeed a 7.62mm AKM
Wich is a question for Khepesh and other former Soviet soldiers, what happened to the mountains of AK-47 and AKM in 7.62mm caliber? They were all replaced by the AK-74? Where did they went? to the furnaces or exported all around the world?
Pic
Surprisingly honest in saying the Ukrainian army is crap and drunken scum and the locals hate the soldiers.
This is allegedly one of the men in the article, what kind of a Kalashnikov is that? Article says it's an old AK from 1963, and yes, I can see the slanted muzzle of the AKM, but everything else has been customized in a "tacticool" way. I think from the size of the magazine it may be indeed a 7.62mm AKM
Wich is a question for Khepesh and other former Soviet soldiers, what happened to the mountains of AK-47 and AKM in 7.62mm caliber? They were all replaced by the AK-74? Where did they went? to the furnaces or exported all around the world?
Pic
whir- Posts : 826
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A reprint from german media.Ispan wrote:This was published in the magazine of a spanish newspaper. Is a journalist story on the Donbass battallion
Sold by the pound is a more precise description.Ispan wrote:what happened to the mountains of AK-47 and AKM in 7.62mm caliber? They were all replaced by the AK-74? Where did they went? to the furnaces or exported all around the world?
KiloGolf- Posts : 2481
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Militarov wrote:JohninMK wrote:Every so often someone kicks the ashes of MH-17
The Dutch police will examine the objects collected by the journalists at the site of the crash of Boeing MH17 aircraft in Ukraine, Wim de Bruin, the spokesman for the Dutch state prosecutor's office, said Tuesday.
On Saturday, Dutch police had confiscated materials concerning the MH17 crash from two independent Dutch journalists, Stefan Beck and Michel Spekkers, upon their arrival to the Netherlands from Donbas. Beck and Spekkers had gone to Ukraine to examine the site of the crash and to speak to the local residents. "The objects that Spekkers took from the site of the crash will be examined by the police," the spokesman told RIA Novosti.
Amsterdam police redirected all journalists' questions to the prosecutor's office.
Read more: https://sputniknews.com/europe/201701101049431413-netherlands-nh17-crash-investigation/
Since when is third of forth hand item reconsidered as evidence in police investigation? Let alone something collected by "independent journalists". Sounds like one of those "proofs" they gathered on Kosovo in 1999.
Footage of that train still haunts as I watched it live on TV, same for the RTS LGB attack with that journalist brains getting poured out of his head.
We remember.
Guest- Guest
KiloGolf wrote:
Footage of that train still haunts as I watched it live on TV, same for the RTS LGB attack with that journalist brains getting poured out of his head.
We remember.
These you refer to i belive.
Yeah... sadly, many Serbs forgot, or prefer to not remember.
JohninMK- Posts : 14709
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Just gets stranger
A Dutch court has ruled that part of the photo material from Dutch journalists working in Ukraine’s southeast (Donbass) can be used in the interests of the investigation, freelance journalist Stefan Beck told RIA Novosti.
MOSCOW (Sputnik) – On Tuesday, Beck wrote in his blog that he thought that the demand of Amsterdam police to hand over the material collected by Beck and another Dutch journalist Michel Spekkers at the site of the MH17 plane crash in Ukraine’s southeast was a suggestion, not an order. On Friday, Beck told RIA Novosti that most of the photo material, including parts of it which capture the detention of Spekkers at the airport in Amsterdam will be destroyed.
Spekkers had his luggage confiscated last Saturday upon flying back to Amsterdam after filming the MH17 crash site. He reportedly carried bags full of metal parts and an object that could have been human remains.
According to Beck, the two journalists did not try to hide the material they had brought to the Netherlands from the authorities and that they were mostly worried about the safety of the Donbass residents they had interviewed.
Read more: https://sputniknews.com/europe/201701131049544933-donbass-photos-beck-spekkers-investigation/
A Dutch court has ruled that part of the photo material from Dutch journalists working in Ukraine’s southeast (Donbass) can be used in the interests of the investigation, freelance journalist Stefan Beck told RIA Novosti.
MOSCOW (Sputnik) – On Tuesday, Beck wrote in his blog that he thought that the demand of Amsterdam police to hand over the material collected by Beck and another Dutch journalist Michel Spekkers at the site of the MH17 plane crash in Ukraine’s southeast was a suggestion, not an order. On Friday, Beck told RIA Novosti that most of the photo material, including parts of it which capture the detention of Spekkers at the airport in Amsterdam will be destroyed.
Spekkers had his luggage confiscated last Saturday upon flying back to Amsterdam after filming the MH17 crash site. He reportedly carried bags full of metal parts and an object that could have been human remains.
According to Beck, the two journalists did not try to hide the material they had brought to the Netherlands from the authorities and that they were mostly worried about the safety of the Donbass residents they had interviewed.
Read more: https://sputniknews.com/europe/201701131049544933-donbass-photos-beck-spekkers-investigation/
Ispan- Posts : 643
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Back to Ukraine.
Looking for casualties found this interesting report about an OSCE observer telling the truth
http://novorossia.today/135882-2/
Looking for casualties found this interesting report about an OSCE observer telling the truth
http://novorossia.today/135882-2/
GarryB- Posts : 39019
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The posts regarding Scottish independence are moving to here:
https://www.russiadefence.net/t2933-scottish-indepedence#30212
the posts on Kosovo will be left as more relevant to this thread.
Please keep to the Ukraine or at least some where near.
Off topic posts will be moved to more appropriate threats with posts asking for posts to be moved.
GarryB
https://www.russiadefence.net/t2933-scottish-indepedence#30212
the posts on Kosovo will be left as more relevant to this thread.
Please keep to the Ukraine or at least some where near.
Off topic posts will be moved to more appropriate threats with posts asking for posts to be moved.
GarryB
JohninMK- Posts : 14709
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Location : England
Thanks Garry.
It certainly looks as if Kiev is going to have a bit of a problem after the 20th. They seem to have bet the farm on supporting Clinton and Trump has a reputation for getting back at those who intend him and his friends like Manafort harm. Bit of a club about the head rather than a knife in the back man. It is a big article so not cut and pasted.
A couple of days ago, Politico published a fascinating piece describing how factions associated with the current Ukrainian government apparently interfered in the U.S. election on behalf of Hillary Clinton. The findings seem pretty damning, and certainly warrant at least some conversation within the American media given the 24/7 obsession with Russia. Nevertheless, most of you have probably never heard of this saga, since when it comes to the corporate media news cycle, some election interference is more equal than others.
The article is lengthy, and can be confusing at times given all the moving parts, but I highly encourage you to read it. Ukrainian interference in the election can be traced to essentially two sources. First, there was the apparent collaboration between the Ukrainian embassy in Washington D.C. and a highly paid Ukrainian-American DNC consultant, Alexandra Chalupa. The second angle is far more disturbing, and involves the publicization of a so-called ledger demonstrating corruption between Paul Manafort and pro-Russian elements in Ukraine, by a parliamentarian named Serhiy Leshchenko. Bizarrely, the investigation was effectively dropped after Trump won the election, making you wonder if there was anything really there in the first place.
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-01-13/some-election-interference-more-equal-others-how-ukraine-meddled-behalf-clinton
It certainly looks as if Kiev is going to have a bit of a problem after the 20th. They seem to have bet the farm on supporting Clinton and Trump has a reputation for getting back at those who intend him and his friends like Manafort harm. Bit of a club about the head rather than a knife in the back man. It is a big article so not cut and pasted.
A couple of days ago, Politico published a fascinating piece describing how factions associated with the current Ukrainian government apparently interfered in the U.S. election on behalf of Hillary Clinton. The findings seem pretty damning, and certainly warrant at least some conversation within the American media given the 24/7 obsession with Russia. Nevertheless, most of you have probably never heard of this saga, since when it comes to the corporate media news cycle, some election interference is more equal than others.
The article is lengthy, and can be confusing at times given all the moving parts, but I highly encourage you to read it. Ukrainian interference in the election can be traced to essentially two sources. First, there was the apparent collaboration between the Ukrainian embassy in Washington D.C. and a highly paid Ukrainian-American DNC consultant, Alexandra Chalupa. The second angle is far more disturbing, and involves the publicization of a so-called ledger demonstrating corruption between Paul Manafort and pro-Russian elements in Ukraine, by a parliamentarian named Serhiy Leshchenko. Bizarrely, the investigation was effectively dropped after Trump won the election, making you wonder if there was anything really there in the first place.
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-01-13/some-election-interference-more-equal-others-how-ukraine-meddled-behalf-clinton
franco- Posts : 6710
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Here is a tab off the Donipress website for a weekly newsletter for those interested;
https://dnipress.com/en/news/newsletter/#defence
https://dnipress.com/en/news/newsletter/#defence
medo- Posts : 4342
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https://dninews.com/article/ukrainian-forces-fire-1000-times-dpr-territory-tanks-and-self-propelled-mounts-detected
Ukropistan increase shelling of novorussian villages. It seems they want to start new war before Obama leave office. I hope Maidanuts Will actually start a new war and that NAF once and for all destroy Ukropistan army and liberate whole DNR and LNR territory.
Ukraine’s criminal forces violated the ceasefire regime 964 times over the past 24 hours. At that, the enemy has launched 16 artillery shells, five tank-shells, 148 mortar rounds of 120mm and 82mm caliber and 766 shells from grenade launchers of variuos types onto the Republic’s territory. Besides, the enemy used IFVs and small arms.
The Ukrainian terrorists under command of the commanders of the 53rd, 72nd, 92nd separate mechanized brigades of the Armed Forces of Ukraine Gruzyevich, Sokolov, Nikolyuk and the commander of the 36th naval infantry brigade Delyatitsky shelled the Republic’s localities of Golmovsky, the mine named after Gagarin, Shyrokaya Balka, Zhelyeznaya Balka, Yasinovataya, Krutaya Balka, Spartak, Yasinovataya, Aleksandrovka, Staromikhailovka, Petrovskoye, Sakhanka, Leninskoy, Kominternovo, the area of the airport and the settlement of Trudovskiye of Petrovsky district of Donetsk.
Two houses in the localities of Yasinovataya and Kominternovo were damaged as a result of AFU shellings. Two servicemen of the DPR Armed Forces were wounded.
Ukropistan increase shelling of novorussian villages. It seems they want to start new war before Obama leave office. I hope Maidanuts Will actually start a new war and that NAF once and for all destroy Ukropistan army and liberate whole DNR and LNR territory.
auslander- Posts : 1637
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Biden is in Kiev at this moment. Look for fighting to substantially increase this week before inauguration. Biden doesn't care how many die as long as it's another stick in Trump's eye.
PapaDragon- Posts : 13278
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auslander wrote:Biden is in Kiev at this moment. Look for fighting to substantially increase this week before inauguration. Biden doesn't care how many die as long as it's another stick in Trump's eye.
All they can do now is to either increase shelling and accomplish nothing or actually go on the real offensive and get ripped to shreds. Same choice they had for more than a year, maybe two.
Every pig squeals before it is bled to death. Kiev is no different.
ultimatewarrior- Posts : 798
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If NAF has counter battery radars, they can take out Ukrainian artillery and crew every time they shell.
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