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66 posters

    Project 11711: "Ivan Gren" class

    PapaDragon
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    Project 11711: "Ivan Gren" class - Page 32 Empty Re: Project 11711: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  PapaDragon Wed Aug 25, 2021 12:17 am

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:They would then need to replace the deck gun and a coastal fire support gun would be more important for troops then AD. The top spot has an open area below it nowhere to put AA....

    If your landing ship needs to use the main gun during landing in this day and age you done fucked up

    It's not the 50s anymore



    SeigSoloyvov wrote:...So more delays and longer construction times, not a good idea IMO, their current landing ships are getting on in age.

    They streamlined the superstructure not changed propulsion type

    Timeline stays the same



    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Wed Aug 25, 2021 8:01 am

    The change in superstructure shape is trivial, not sure why such a change would require a huge amount of time to implement.

    The whole point of designing and then building and then testing and then redesigning is slow and expensive but it is still the only known way to make ships.

    I am sure the quicker easier way is the way the US built 3 Zumwalts and 16 odd LCSs before they had fully tested them and made sure they did what they expected.... they just essentially put them into serial production and were testing them as soon as they were ready but by the time they realised there were problems they had already made 3 Zumwalts and 16 LCS ship... now for all their speed in getting them made all that money is wasted and they need to decide what to with these useless ships that even their allies likely wont take or can't have because they don't want to share their secrets with.

    That front gun looks like a Duet twin barrel 30mm cannon and that is indeed used for both air defence and attacking surface and land targets... and by the way lack of radar is not a huge drawback for such systems as they often have an optronics package that includes a laser rangefinder and can be very accurate in automatic engagement mode against air and surface targets.

    I do agree that more air defence weapons would certainly be an improvement... even just TOR missile launchers deck mounted around the place and perhaps a Pantsir system sitting on the top deck...

    It does not need to be covered in weapons, but even just replacing the Duet with a 57mm gun mount would increase effective range coverage from the front and a couple of Duets on either side of the hangar roof... unlike the Pantsir/Kashtan, the Duet does not have a huge underdeck magazine and infrastructure taking up space several decks down... it is almost like a RWS for ships.

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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Wed Aug 25, 2021 8:06 am


    If your landing ship needs to use the main gun during landing in this day and age you done fucked up

    It's not the 50s anymore

    Very true, but if you have fucked up then you really want to be able to do something about that... and a heavy artillery gun on a ship that can deliver an accurate shot of HE out to 70km to land a 40kg HE bomb within 10m of a machine gun or sniper or enemy position that you didn't notice when you started your landing but has opened fire and is causing you problems would be very very useful.

    Of course one of the attack helicopters you are carrying could also deliver such a blow too and indeed a UCAV could also do the same... but a ships gun can do it 24/7 in any weather conditions rather faster than an attack helo or drone could manage... once they had the target coordinates of course.

    This ship is probably too small to carry a really heavy calibre gun to reach deep inland for that sort of thing though... an Alligator class landing ship has a 57mm gun and at most a 76mm gun would be used... a new 57mm gun would be more useful for air defence and general duties IMHO.
    SeigSoloyvov
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov Wed Aug 25, 2021 6:06 pm

    The ship looks bigger with this modification Papa, if it's alright then.

    Also no if you are sending a ship right up to the coast that means you already have air cover making AD pointless and Helios are very easy to take down and they aren't that reliable against a foe of equal equipment.

    A gun would be better to support the actual landing operations against dug-in enemy forces at that point


    Last edited by SeigSoloyvov on Thu Aug 26, 2021 4:11 pm; edited 1 time in total
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Thu Aug 26, 2021 1:00 pm

    The Russians traditionally mount air defence systems on their ships... after the Falklands war they started mounting 12.7mm on pretty much all their ships to protect from targets close by the ship that might be hard to engage with heavier guns... and patrol boats often have 14.5mm HMGs too for similar purposes.

    There is actually a low rate of fire AK mount that only fires at 1,000 rpm and is optimised for warning shots at ground targets... AK-306.

    I would expect for a ship like this it would have at least a Duet which seems to be the weapon shown.

    Also during the Falklands war the experience of exocet missiles being fired at British military ships and those ships deploying jammers and decoys only to have the missile lock on to the converted civilian ships with no such defence or protection led to the loss of some ships... so Russian ships will have EW and decoys and other defences and a light gun. The cost is tiny and it might never be used... but having it and not needing it is not that big a deal, but not having it and needing it would be problem.
    Mir
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    Post  Mir Thu Aug 26, 2021 1:19 pm

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:The ship looks bigger with this modification Papa, if it's alright then.

    A gun would be better to support the actual landing operations against dug-in enemy forces at that point

    For that particular purpose I personally would like to see a TOS mounted on a ship Smile
    SeigSoloyvov
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov Thu Aug 26, 2021 5:55 pm

    GarryB wrote:The Russians traditionally mount air defence systems on their ships... after the Falklands war they started mounting 12.7mm on pretty much all their ships to protect from targets close by the ship that might be hard to engage with heavier guns... and patrol boats often have 14.5mm HMGs too for similar purposes.

    There is actually a low rate of fire AK mount that only fires at 1,000 rpm and is optimised for warning shots at ground targets... AK-306.

    I would expect for a ship like this it would have at least a Duet which seems to be the weapon shown.

    Also during the Falklands war the experience of exocet missiles being fired at British military ships and those ships deploying jammers and decoys only to have the missile lock on to the converted civilian ships with no such defence or protection led to the loss of some ships... so Russian ships will have EW and decoys and other defences and a light gun. The cost is tiny and it might never be used... but having it and not needing it is not that big a deal, but not having it and needing it would be problem.

    An AK-306 won't have the penetration power and by the time you try to call in a missile strike lots of damage can be done and you assume it would be missiles.

    Helios are also easy pickings for MANPADS as shown in Syria when the Jhads downed Russian birds easily with them. Also what if the enemy can jam your missiles?.

    You cannot Jam a Gun, so IMO a support gun is better than AD on a ship whose job is to deliver troops to a beach. head
    PapaDragon
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    Post  PapaDragon Thu Aug 26, 2021 7:03 pm

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:The ship looks bigger with this modification Papa, if it's alright then....

    It's been bigger from the get go and first hull segments are already rolled out

    This latest modification is just a tweak on the upper superstructure, nothing changes mass wise



    SeigSoloyvov wrote:...A gun would be better to support the actual landing operations against dug-in enemy forces at that point

    If there is a dug-in enemy that survived all the aircraft, drones, missiles and all the artillery fire from the rest of the fleet then a single gun on a landing ship is pointless because you already screwed up the landing long before that landing ship approached the beach



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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Fri Aug 27, 2021 9:47 am

    An AK-306 won't have the penetration power and by the time you try to call in a missile strike lots of damage can be done and you assume it would be missiles.

    It is a landing ship... an AK-306 would only be there as a sort of HMG type set up on a US ship.

    The actual gun appears to be a duet which has two 5,000 rpm 30mm six barrel cannon with the same ammo so the same penetration... but much more effective against small fast targets.

    Helios are also easy pickings for MANPADS as shown in Syria when the Jhads downed Russian birds easily with them. Also what if the enemy can jam your missiles?.

    Tactics and the right equipment can make them effective... besides the current missiles that will be carried by Russian helicopters like the Izd 305 have a range of 25km... which MANPADS can cope with that?

    Drones will be used to monitor the landing and any resistance to the landing will be deal with using naval gun fire support no doubt... helicopters could be used to support the attack which could include dropping forces behind the beach defences to attack them from the rear and destroy their support lines and rear areas.

    You cannot Jam a Gun, so IMO a support gun is better than AD on a ship whose job is to deliver troops to a beach. head

    The only calibre gun that would be useful would be a 152mm gun which would take up an enormous amount of internal space on such a small ship.

    A 40K helicopter landing ship might have a 152mm gun mount to support operations but these little ships will just have air defence guns and missiles I suspect.

    If there is a dug-in enemy that survived all the aircraft, drones, missiles and all the artillery fire from the rest of the fleet then a single gun on a landing ship is pointless because you already screwed up the landing long before that landing ship approached the beach

    If a landing is screwed up because there are living defenders opposing the landing then there have not been many successful landings that weren't screwed up.

    I seem to recall a US landing on the Alutien islands in about 1942 or 43, where they only lost about 30 men, but there were no Japanese on the islands they landed on so it was a totally unopposed landing which by your criteria makes it not a screw up.

    Thing is that you don't need landing ships if the landing is going to be unopposed... just transport ships and floating piers...

    Some dug in troops can't be defeated with air or naval gun power... but it keeps their heads down while you fight your way onto the beach and spread inland and take those positions with ground forces...
    PapaDragon
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    Post  PapaDragon Sun Aug 29, 2021 8:10 pm

    Project 11711: "Ivan Gren" class - Page 32 26-9988809-11711-1-szh

    Project 11711: "Ivan Gren" class - Page 32 26-9988837-11711-2-szh

    Project 11711: "Ivan Gren" class - Page 32 29-9994913-11711-vladimir-andreev-obschij-vid

    Project 11711: "Ivan Gren" class - Page 32 29-9994921-11711-vladimir-andreev-vidy-sboku-i-sverkhu

    Project 11711: "Ivan Gren" class - Page 32 29-9994925-11711-vladimir-andreev-ttkh

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