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    Project 23900 "Ivan Rogov" Amphibious assault ship

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    mnztr

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    Post  mnztr on Tue Jun 23, 2020 4:17 am

    Very suprised I could not find anything about this new class in the search. 25K ton helicopter carriers to be laidd down soon to replace the Mistrals. To be laid down soon!!

    http://www.navyrecognition.com/index.php/focus-analysis/naval-technology/8634-analysis-part-1-russian-navy-starts-production-of-amphibious-assault-ships-project-23900.html
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    Post  hoom on Tue Jun 23, 2020 10:13 am

    Universal Landing Ships thread is what you're after
    https://www.russiadefence.net/t7867-universal-landing-ships-for-russian-navy
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    Post  marcellogo on Tue Jun 23, 2020 10:16 am

    mnztr wrote:Very suprised I could not find anything about this new class in the search. 25K ton helicopter carriers to be laidd down soon to replace the Mistrals. To be laid down soon!!

    http://www.navyrecognition.com/index.php/focus-analysis/naval-technology/8634-analysis-part-1-russian-navy-starts-production-of-amphibious-assault-ships-project-23900.html

    Because they were a.t.m. covered into the Ivan Gran class thread, still I think is just the right time to have a dedicated one for them, so you are welcome.
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    Post  mnztr on Tue Jun 23, 2020 1:48 pm

    So is this a Mistral knock off, or inspired? My understanding of the Russian Mistral project is that some super blocks were actally manufactured in Russia and floated over to be joined up in the French yard. The next 2 ships were supposed to be built in Russia, And Russia received substantial compensation from the French (Americans) to not deliver the ships..plus the Americans probably had to give Egypt the $ to purchase them lol. In any case the Russians obviously know the Mistral design in intimate detail, so I expect this is a modified Mistral. Opinions?
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Tue Jun 23, 2020 2:05 pm

    marcellogo wrote:
    mnztr wrote:Very suprised I could not find anything about this new class in the search. 25K ton helicopter carriers to be laidd down soon to replace the Mistrals. To be laid down soon!!

    http://www.navyrecognition.com/index.php/focus-analysis/naval-technology/8634-analysis-part-1-russian-navy-starts-production-of-amphibious-assault-ships-project-23900.html

    Because they were a.t.m. covered into the Ivan Gran class thread, still I think is just the right time to have a dedicated one for them, so you are welcome.


    hoom wrote:Universal Landing Ships thread is what you're after
    https://www.russiadefence.net/t7867-universal-landing-ships-for-russian-navy

    Yes they were covered there, not in the Ivan gren thread.

    However,  since this project got the green light, it deserves a dedicated thread... maybe we can even ask the mods to move some of the latest post to this new thread...

    By the way I am not sure it will be called priboy...If I remember well priboy and Lavina were two concepts presented in 2015 by a russian design bureau...

    The new project 23900 is of course inspired to them and to Mistral, but has received no name yet I believe...


    Maybe we could call it Sevastopol (or Vladivostok)  class, if they confirm those names for the first two ships
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    Post  mnztr on Tue Jun 23, 2020 2:35 pm

    Biggest warships built by Russia in a long time, certainly they are an intersting class and maybe will be streched to light carriers in later interations.
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    Post  GarryB on Wed Jun 24, 2020 6:35 am

    So is this a Mistral knock off, or inspired?

    They wanted Mistrals... they ordered Mistrals, they helped build Mistrals and they paid for two Mistrals to be built... and by now they would have had 2-3 years of operational experience with the ships and would likely have ordered two more. Whether they got to make one or both would probably depend on their negotiating skills and the pig headedness of the French...

    Of course with any purchase of any off the shelf design there will be things you don't like... but being an off the shelf design you can't modify the design too much otherwise it is no longer cheap or a safe design you can then make and expect to work the same as the original.

    Mindstorm posted a link to a Russian critique of the Axe job on the Russian Navy and their new ship we essentially actually know very little about.

    As they mention we really don't know a huge lot about their new ship but we do know there were a lot of things they didn't like about the Mistral and really this is a chance to fix those problems... things like a single engine room makes it vulnerable to battle damage taking it out with one hit, and of course the fact that it is not ice ready... which would be critical considering it will be expected to operate from the Pacific Fleet and the Northern Fleets so ice will be a factor.

    The article also mentions that it will be performing the same role as the Mistral so in many ways it will look alike, but you can't just scale designs up so the fact that it will be significantly bigger and likely have different propulsion means it wont be a copy.

    Most likely it will have Redut or other similar SAM system for self defence and also likely Pantsir at the very least in each corner of the deck... possibly two more in the middle in waist positions.

    In any case the Russians obviously know the Mistral design in intimate detail, so I expect this is a modified Mistral. Opinions?

    They will have Mistral plans but also plans and designs from their own design bureaus that they could mix together to get what they want.

    There were a lot of issues with the design of the Mistral they didn't like... when they are designing and building for themselves from scratch they can eliminate those problems. Most drawings I have seen show two smoke stacks for instance... which suggests two engine rooms at least... and being a larger heavier ship they would likely need more power too...

    Maybe we could call it Sevastopol (or Vladivostok)  class, if they confirm those names for the first two ships

    The plan was always to use these ships in the Pacific Fleet and the Northern Fleet, so Vladivostok is rather more likely.

    We need to wait for more information to see what is actually happening and then we can decide what needs to be moved or merged...
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Wed Jun 24, 2020 7:56 am

    GarryB wrote:
    Maybe we could call it Sevastopol (or Vladivostok)  class, if they confirm those names for the first two ships

    The plan was always to use these ships in the Pacific Fleet and the Northern Fleet, so Vladivostok is rather more likely.
    That is the most probable choice, even if a ship like that could be useful also in the mediterranean (and the northern fleet still has the kuznetov).

    I remember reading an article from a couple of years ago where they mentioned that the Pacific fleet would ideally need 2 large amphibious assault ships/helicopter carriers, and the northern and black sea fleet one each

    Edit: it will take a while, anyway, before they could even think about building the third and fourth ship of this serie...
    In the meanwhile probably a couple of modified Ivan gren class could be enough for the black sea fleet (if they start building more than 2)..
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    Post  dino00 on Wed Jul 01, 2020 9:46 pm

    In Russia, began to select crews for domestic helicopter carriers

    For the first domestic helicopter carriers began to pick up crews. We are talking about two universal landing ships (UDC) of project 23900 Vladivostok and Sevastopol, sources in the Defense Ministry told Izvestia.

    According to the interlocutors of the publication, there will be a large helicopter group on board the Russian landing ships, and the crew will include, in addition to sailors, representatives of aviation and marines.

    Sources noted that it is planned to pay special attention to aviation technical posts - their qualifications must meet the highest requirements, as specialists will have to maintain the combat effectiveness of equipment away from their native shores.

    The crews themselves, according to interlocutors of Izvestia, will be staffed by 2022. By this time, the training program for training the team will also be prescribed. It will take time to develop it, since there are no ships of a similar class as part of the Russian Navy, sources said.


    https://iz.ru/1030392/2020-07-01/v-rossii-nachali-podbirat-ekipazhi-dlia-otechestvennykh-vertoletonostcev

    Full Article later


    Last edited by dino00 on Wed Jul 01, 2020 11:19 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Post  dino00 on Wed Jul 01, 2020 11:19 pm

    Navy crews: teams are selected for Russian helicopter carriers

    The Navy will have to prepare seamen, pilots and technical personnel for carrier-based aircraft of the latest ships
    ...

    French lessons

    The experience of training teams for the Mistral helicopter carriers may also be useful. The set of crews for the first two ships of this type began in the fall of 2013. Candidates for them were selected on a competitive basis from the best officers and sailors-contractors. After staffing, the teams underwent initial training in St. Petersburg, and then went to France to better get acquainted with the structure of helicopter carriers.

    For their training, Russia signed a contract with the French company DCI, which specializes in training personnel for the maintenance and operation of military equipment under construction for foreign customers. The training of Russians was to be conducted in French with simultaneous translation into Russian and lasted several months.

    A group of four hundred crew members arrived in Saint-Nazaire in June 2014 aboard the Smolny training ship. In September and October, one of the built helicopter carriers twice went to sea for 10 days with the Russians on board.

    After the refusal of France due to sanctions to transfer ships to Russia, the crews returned to Kronstadt in December 2014. After another six months, the teams were disbanded due to the final break of the contract with Paris.

    ...

    Finally, the appearance of the ship and its characteristics were determined at the end of 2019. As the project was prepared, they changed. The ships planned for construction will have a displacement of already 25 thousand tons and a length of about 220 m. Such dimensions will allow the UDC to take on board up to twenty helicopters and two reinforced battalions of the marine corps.

    Full Article
    https://iz.ru/1029841/aleksei-ramm-roman-kretcul-anton-lavrov-bogdan-stepovoi/ekipazhi-po-flotski-dlia-rossiiskikh-vertoletonostcev-podbiraiut-komandy

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    Post  Isos on Fri Jul 03, 2020 7:59 pm

    That's 1.4 billion $ so 700 million each. More expensive than the french Mistral.


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    The crews for Russia's 2 Project 23900 helicopter carriers, the Vladivostok and Sevastopol, that are slated to be laid down this year at the Zaliv Shipyard will begin training by 2022. The ships cost 100 B RUB together and have a displacement of 25k tons

    Each ship will be able to carry 20 helicopters and two reinforced naval infantry battalions.
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    Post  GarryB on Sat Jul 04, 2020 6:16 am

    The French charged the Russians 1.37 billion Euros for the two ships which was described as being 720 million Euros for the first one and 650 million euros for the second.

    That works out at about 1.54 billion US dollars, and the figure given... 100 billion rubles works out at about 1.44 billion US dollars.

    Considering it has been 5 years, and these are actually bigger heavier ships I think that is a bargain... especially considering not a ruble is going to French ship builders this time, it is all going to Russian ship builders and sub contractors that make Russian stuff... at 25 K tons it is about 3.5K tons heavier and can carry four more helicopters... and most importantly will be done to their own specification and requirements.... within reason of course.

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    Post  Big_Gazza on Sat Jul 04, 2020 1:22 pm

    They are also the lead units, so a portion of the cost will represent R&D activities.  Lead vessels are always more expensive than serial-build units (like the Mistrals).

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    Post  dino00 on Sat Jul 04, 2020 3:21 pm

    Big_Gazza wrote:They are also the lead units, so a portion of the cost will represent R&D activities.  Lead vessels are always more expensive than serial-build units (like the Mistrals).

    Good point, and thy need more than 2, and in the future they have the competency to export.
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    Post  mnztr on Sat Jul 04, 2020 3:33 pm

    GarryB wrote:The French charged the Russians 1.37 billion Euros for the two ships which was described as being 720 million Euros for the first one and 650 million euros for the second.

    That works out at about 1.54 billion US dollars, and the figure given... 100 billion rubles works out at about 1.44 billion US dollars.

    Considering it has been 5 years, and these are actually bigger heavier ships I think that is a bargain... especially considering not a ruble is going to French ship builders this time, it is all going to Russian ship builders and sub contractors that make Russian stuff... at 25 K tons it is about 3.5K tons heavier and can carry four more helicopters... and most importantly will be done to their own specification and requirements.... within reason of course.

    That was what was chaged by the French, but its my understanding that Russia also supplied and manufactured signification sections of the ship no? So you have to add that to the total of what the Mistrals would have cost.

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    Post  GarryB on Sun Jul 05, 2020 3:43 am

    It ultimately doesn't matter because Mistral class ships from France are really not an option.

    Usually when you build something for yourself it costs more to make... and it also takes much longer with no assurance you will get it right... that is why they bought the Mistrals in the first place... they might not have been exactly what they wanted but the price was reasonable for ships that size and they were a proven reliable design with no serious problems.

    Turns out the French government has no spine and will screw you to your face... which is an important lesson for Russia to learn... one of many they have had to take in the last few decades... Yeltsin actually thought Russia and the US were friends, and Putin entered power thinking lots of good things could be done in cooperating with the west, but the west thinks it won the cold war and that it can therefore dictate to everyone how everything should be... and no back talk from the losers.

    Terrible lost opportunity but that ship has clearly sailed... Russia is looking to China and India and other countries that are not joined to the west at the hip and the lip and can't make decisions of their own without checking from Washington first.

    From a western perspective not only have they lost a large and powerful potential ally, but the world opposition gained an ally with technology every bit as good as the wests technology, and significant energy resources too. All they had to do was recognise that Russia has its own interests like any other country on the planet and to show a little respect towards those interests... but they couldn't even do that.
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    Post  GarryB on Sun Jul 05, 2020 3:47 am

    I should add that the extra costs these ships are going to add to the budget is not problem at all because those extra funds will go to Russian companies and sub contractors and businesses, and Russian taxpayers who will spend their money inside the Russian economy... saving 100 million dollars by buying French ships means 1.4 billion going to the French economy and French workers who will pay tax in France and spend their money in the French economy... so not really saving 100 million dollars at all.... actually putting 1.3 billion dollars into the French economy vs putting it into the Russian economy...

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    Post  JohninMK on Wed Jul 15, 2020 11:45 am

    Interesting hull form.

    Rob Lee
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    Russia will lay down its two Project 23900 Priboy-class amphibious assault ships this week at the Zaliv Shipyard. They will be 220 meters long, with a 25k ton displacement, and will be able to carry 20 helos and 2 reinforced naval infantry battalions.



    Project 23900 "Ivan Rogov" Amphibious assault ship G4tSWBRu?format=jpg&name=large


    Full press release in Russian https://iz.ru/1034553/roman-kretcul-aleksei-ramm/pod-shum-priboia-rossiiskie-mistrali-zalozhat-v-blizhaishie-dni

    First para via Yandex

    The UDC 23900 "Priboy" project was developed by the Nevsky design Bureau. To build a Russian "Mistral" will be on the Kerch shipyard "Zaliv". Earlier it was reported that the amount of the contract signed in the spring of the Ministry of defense with the enterprise amounted to 100 billion rubles.

    The project was developed for several years. For the first time, the model of the ship was shown back in 2015, but after that, engineers and military experts agreed on its parameters for a long time. It was only at the end of last year that the UDC's appearance and characteristics were finally determined. Initially, the ship was supposed to have a length of 165 m, a displacement of 14 thousand tons, a speed of up to 20 knots and carry up to eight helicopters on Board, but by the final stage of design, all the characteristics were significantly increased. UDC, which will be laid in the next few days, will have a displacement of 25 thousand tons and a length of about 220 m. As a result, Russian helicopter carriers will surpass the French ones in size (displacement-22 thousand tons, length-199 m). This size will allow the Russian ship to take on Board up to 20 helicopters and two reinforced marine battalions.

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    Post  LMFS on Wed Jul 15, 2020 3:39 pm

    JohninMK wrote:Interesting hull form.

    Project 23900 "Ivan Rogov" Amphibious assault ship Lavina12

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    Post  PapaDragon on Wed Jul 15, 2020 4:32 pm


    That's the image of Lavina project

    I guess will have to wait until tomorrow to finally figure out what the hell are they building
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    Post  dino00 on Thu Jul 16, 2020 11:53 am

    Putin rescheduled a trip to Crimea to the ceremony of laying new Navy ships on July 20

    Moscow. July 16. INTERFAX - Russian President Vladimir Putin postponed a previously scheduled working trip to Crimea to attend the ceremony of laying down warships and will hold the first meeting in Moscow on the upcoming budget process, said presidential spokesman Dmitry Peskov.

    https://www.militarynews.ru/story.asp?rid=1&nid=534985&lang=RU

    Postponed to Monday
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    Post  Arrow on Thu Jul 16, 2020 1:14 pm

    It is not known whether only the ceremony in Crimea is postponed or all ceremonies, ships 22350 and 885M?
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    Post  LMFS on Mon Jul 20, 2020 1:45 pm

    Anyone thought we would see the final shape of 23900 today? lol1

    They could have asked the render to someone who actually knows how an UDK looks like...

    Project 23900 "Ivan Rogov" Amphibious assault ship 23900_10

    BTW, the names of the ships are "Ivan Rogov" and "Mitrofan Moskalenko"
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    Post  ult on Mon Jul 20, 2020 1:54 pm

    Another render.

    Project 23900 "Ivan Rogov" Amphibious assault ship Anons

    https://www.business-gazeta.ru/article/475280

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    Post  dino00 on Mon Jul 20, 2020 2:43 pm

    Is this?

    Project 23900 "Ivan Rogov" Amphibious assault ship 15952410

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