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What is this heresy?! Actual progress on AlrosaMir wrote:Looks like Alrosa is about to make a comeback!
Picture taken in December.
They even got round to closing the torpedo door
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82 posters
Project 877/636: Kilo class SSK
hoom- Posts : 2352
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They even got round to closing the torpedo door
Mir
Mir- Posts : 3118
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Maybe they will use here as a suicide drone? 
Hole- Posts : 10673
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Krepost- Posts : 683
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Kilo and Lada
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andalusia- Posts : 728
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Just read in this article that China says Russian subs have inferior AIP. Also since China is retiring their Kilos they bought from Russia since the mid 90s, are they still a good sub and can they be sold to a country like Iran or Venezuela that needs good submarines? I think these improved Kilos could greatly enhance Iran's naval capabilities.
https://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htsub/articles/20220217.aspx
https://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htsub/articles/20220217.aspx
owais.usmani- Posts : 1786
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Age : 37
andalusia wrote:Just read in this article that China says Russian subs have inferior AIP.
Which Russian subs are they talking about? Both Kilo and Lada do not have AIP.
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Isos- Posts : 11296
Points : 11266
Join date : 2015-11-06
No aip on russian subs. They have prototypes but don't seems like they will use them.
China can sell back its kilos but will need russian authorization as well as a refurbishement.
China can sell back its kilos but will need russian authorization as well as a refurbishement.
GarryB- Posts : 38924
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Join date : 2010-03-30
Location : New Zealand
Is any country actually going forward with AIP powered subs except the Europeans who want subs that can sit in ambush and wait for days being quiet before pouncing?
For most normal SSK operation AIPs are useless... they are not powerful enough to run all the systems on the sub and charge the batteries at the same time... so you have to choose one or the other... the fact that it can do so quietly while underwater is not that important if you also can't do anything for days at a time while you are charging the batteries.
The Japanese tested an AIP powered sub and it is clear it was a failure... their next sub was the same with the AIP system removed and just replaced with more batteries.
For most normal SSK operation AIPs are useless... they are not powerful enough to run all the systems on the sub and charge the batteries at the same time... so you have to choose one or the other... the fact that it can do so quietly while underwater is not that important if you also can't do anything for days at a time while you are charging the batteries.
The Japanese tested an AIP powered sub and it is clear it was a failure... their next sub was the same with the AIP system removed and just replaced with more batteries.
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Krepost- Posts : 683
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Magadan
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andalusia- Posts : 728
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Join date : 2013-09-30
Have anybody here ever heard about the Indonesian Navy Chief of Staff in 2014 after visiting Russia inspected two Kilo-class submarines and decided to cancel the plans because they were in bad condition? Does Russia just retrofit old Kilos or do they make new ones?
This is the quote from the wikipedia article:
"The Indonesian Navy was interested in purchasing two Kilo-class submarines. But in 2014 the Chief of Staff of the Indonesian Navy Laksamana Marsetio after a visit to Russia with the team from the Indonesian Navy to inspect the said submarines decided to cancel the plans. He said "The submarines look good on the outside, but the inside is filled with broken equipment, and the two submarines have been in storage for two years." Indonesia chose to buy six Improved Jang Bogo-class submarines later known as Nagapasa-class submarine instead including a transfer of technology, where Indonesia will eventually build four of six of the submarines with South Korea."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kilo-class_submarine#Failed_Bids
This is the quote from the wikipedia article:
"The Indonesian Navy was interested in purchasing two Kilo-class submarines. But in 2014 the Chief of Staff of the Indonesian Navy Laksamana Marsetio after a visit to Russia with the team from the Indonesian Navy to inspect the said submarines decided to cancel the plans. He said "The submarines look good on the outside, but the inside is filled with broken equipment, and the two submarines have been in storage for two years." Indonesia chose to buy six Improved Jang Bogo-class submarines later known as Nagapasa-class submarine instead including a transfer of technology, where Indonesia will eventually build four of six of the submarines with South Korea."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kilo-class_submarine#Failed_Bids
Big_Gazza- Posts : 4636
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andalusia wrote:Have anybody here ever heard about the Indonesian Navy Chief of Staff in 2014 after visiting Russia inspected two Kilo-class submarines and decided to cancel the plans because they were in bad condition? Does Russia just retrofit old Kilos or do they make new ones?
This is the quote from the wikipedia article:
"The Indonesian Navy was interested in purchasing two Kilo-class submarines. But in 2014 the Chief of Staff of the Indonesian Navy Laksamana Marsetio after a visit to Russia with the team from the Indonesian Navy to inspect the said submarines decided to cancel the plans. He said "The submarines look good on the outside, but the inside is filled with broken equipment, and the two submarines have been in storage for two years." Indonesia chose to buy six Improved Jang Bogo-class submarines later known as Nagapasa-class submarine instead including a transfer of technology, where Indonesia will eventually build four of six of the submarines with South Korea."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kilo-class_submarine#Failed_Bids
Read the article that your quoted passage referenced:
While in Russia, added Marsetio, the Indonesian Navy team also saw the new Kilo Class submarine. However, the high price offered made the plan to purchase this type of submarine failed.
Kilo-class submarines are sophisticated submarines with the ability to fire missiles that are quite far away. This ship is needed to strengthen the capabilities of the Indonesian Navy's defense equipment.
The Indonesians wouldn't pay for new Kilos (Pr 636 presumably) and the two old boats weren't what they wanted. Oh well, if they want a budget solution thats their choice. The Nagapasa-class is less than half the displacement and only carries torpedos. Russia isn't obligated to hand out freebies to every nation that comes begging...
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owais.usmani- Posts : 1786
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Join date : 2019-03-27
Age : 37
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GarryB- Posts : 38924
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Join date : 2010-03-30
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That is unusual... an anti Russia spin on an article in wiki... that doesn't happen very often... NOT.
Russia doesn't really do super cheap any more... new technology can't be made super cheap... they do tend to make it affordable with their choices... like command guided ATGMs instead of IIR or MMW guided ones, but many systems on subs are expensive... but worth it.
Russia doesn't really do super cheap any more... new technology can't be made super cheap... they do tend to make it affordable with their choices... like command guided ATGMs instead of IIR or MMW guided ones, but many systems on subs are expensive... but worth it.
George1- Posts : 18305
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project 636 Ufa
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JohninMK- Posts : 14645
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Photo 1 aboveGeorge1 wrote:project 636 Ufa
Just imagine how many hours went into the design and manufacture of that propeller. No doubt a ton of computer and CAD machine time as well. That is where expertise really pays off.
andalusia- Posts : 728
Points : 790
Join date : 2013-09-30
I know that Russia will never upgrade the Romanian Kilo submarine since Romania is hostile to Russia but can the Definul submarine be upgraded to Project 636 standards or is it too old?
Can another nation like Venezuela or Iran purchase it and send it to Russia to upgrade?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanian_submarine_Delfinul
I see nations like Poland also have old Kilo submarines:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ORP_Orze%C5%82_(1986)
What is the operation costs of a improved Kilo sub compared to the German and French subs? Is it cheaper or more expensive?
I assume that it is cheaper to run and maintain like a lot of Russian military equipment compared to the West.
Can another nation like Venezuela or Iran purchase it and send it to Russia to upgrade?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanian_submarine_Delfinul
I see nations like Poland also have old Kilo submarines:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ORP_Orze%C5%82_(1986)
What is the operation costs of a improved Kilo sub compared to the German and French subs? Is it cheaper or more expensive?
I assume that it is cheaper to run and maintain like a lot of Russian military equipment compared to the West.
Hole- Posts : 10673
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Alrosa
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Stealthflanker- Posts : 1410
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andalusia wrote:I know that Russia will never upgrade the Romanian Kilo submarine since Romania is hostile to Russia but can the Definul submarine be upgraded to Project 636 standards or is it too old?
Can another nation like Venezuela or Iran purchase it and send it to Russia to upgrade?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanian_submarine_Delfinul
That depends on Romanian government willingness to sell it. But yes The submarine needs upgrades mainly if Kalibr capability is desired. The upgrades wont make her 636 but 877-EM/EKM.
What is the operation costs of a improved Kilo sub compared to the German and French subs? Is it cheaper or more expensive?
I assume that it is cheaper to run and maintain like a lot of Russian military equipment compared to the West.
This is hard question unfortunately. I wonder if there is Indian member that can help as they operates ALL German, Russian and French Submarine.
GarryB- Posts : 38924
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Can another nation like Venezuela or Iran purchase it and send it to Russia to upgrade?
Therein lies the rub...
How would you feel if you sold something commercially... say cars... you have brand new cars and old second hand cars to sell... and some person came to you and asked about your products but ended up deciding to save a bit of money on buying a car from one of the people you sold a car too. Obviously that person selling the car was just getting rid of it so they aren't interested in helping this new client to support and operate and upgrade this vehicle so they had to come to you because no one else supports your cars.
Are you going to give them a good price?
I woudn't support that... just like a few aircraft companies in Russia didn't offer cheap parts and support to countries that bought cheap second hand aircraft from Eastern Europe in the 1990s and then suddenly realised they kept the spare parts for the few aircraft they kept operating so a cheap plane with no spares and no support stopped being a cheap plane because the Russian companies who earn their living selling aircraft had to earn their living selling only parts... which makes the parts expensive.
If one of those countries wants a cheap sub they should buy an old sub from Russia and pay for an upgrade before it is delivered and buy a supply and support contract with it too.
Will be much more money than buying from eastern europe but it will save money in the end and create better business ties which can be used to get other products too.
The Kilos would not have sold well if they were expensive to operate.
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andalusia- Posts : 728
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GarryB wrote:Can another nation like Venezuela or Iran purchase it and send it to Russia to upgrade?
Therein lies the rub...
How would you feel if you sold something commercially... say cars... you have brand new cars and old second hand cars to sell... and some person came to you and asked about your products but ended up deciding to save a bit of money on buying a car from one of the people you sold a car too. Obviously that person selling the car was just getting rid of it so they aren't interested in helping this new client to support and operate and upgrade this vehicle so they had to come to you because no one else supports your cars.
Are you going to give them a good price?
I woudn't support that... just like a few aircraft companies in Russia didn't offer cheap parts and support to countries that bought cheap second hand aircraft from Eastern Europe in the 1990s and then suddenly realised they kept the spare parts for the few aircraft they kept operating so a cheap plane with no spares and no support stopped being a cheap plane because the Russian companies who earn their living selling aircraft had to earn their living selling only parts... which makes the parts expensive.
If one of those countries wants a cheap sub they should buy an old sub from Russia and pay for an upgrade before it is delivered and buy a supply and support contract with it too.
Will be much more money than buying from eastern europe but it will save money in the end and create better business ties which can be used to get other products too.
The Kilos would not have sold well if they were expensive to operate.
Why has Romania not sold the Delfinul submarine and how much would it cost to bring it up to a modern standard like 300 million dollars?
Is it still operational after all these years?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanian_submarine_Delfinul
Can you give me an annual estimation of the operating cost of a Kilo sub compared to to western diesel like the German type 209 or 214?
Can Project 877 units be upgraded to Project 636 and what would be the cost?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kilo-class_submarine#Project_877_units
Furthermore is Russia willing to sell its older subs laid down in the late 80s to early 90s?
owais.usmani- Posts : 1786
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ALAMO- Posts : 6660
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Did anyone find the details? Was it calibrated in the process?
Krepost- Posts : 683
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ALAMO wrote:Did anyone find the details? Was it calibrated in the process?
Yes it was.
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ALAMO- Posts : 6660
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So 7 pcs of SLBM capable subs ... That can be considered brand new ... Not bad at all.
GarryB- Posts : 38924
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Why has Romania not sold the Delfinul submarine and how much would it cost to bring it up to a modern standard like 300 million dollars?
Is it still operational after all these years?
Questions I can't answer. I suspect they have realised the Black Sea is a Russian lake so any Romanian sub wont last very long or achieve very much and they have other things to spend their money on.
Their problem is that they are part of the west and the countries that tend to buy Kilos are not part of the west, nor are they generally friendly with the west either.
Can you give me an annual estimation of the operating cost of a Kilo sub compared to to western diesel like the German type 209 or 214?
No idea for either really... but rather cheaper than an SSN would cost.
Can Project 877 units be upgraded to Project 636 and what would be the cost?
Most Soviet and Russian Kilos were 877 models with those upgraded to near 636 standard generally being called 877EKM or something similar.
New equipment and systems were installed to massively improve performance leading to the type being called Improved Kilo.
Again... no idea of cost but certainly worth it.
Furthermore is Russia willing to sell its older subs laid down in the late 80s to early 90s?
Would obviously depend on to whom and for how much but they are probably more interested in selling new models rather than old ones.