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    Su-35 vs F-22/F-35

    ahmedfire
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    Post  ahmedfire on Fri Dec 18, 2020 11:26 pm

    It is not about peak power... American stealth aircraft are stealthy in a narrow frequency range only...

    The land based L-band NNIIRT Protivnik GE with 8.5 x 5.5 m array , has a 500 KW of peak power .

    As per Rosoboronexport , it has a detection range 240 km of a target that is 1.5 sq.m of RCS at height 5km .

    And as per NPP pulsar the L-band wing based radar on Su-35 has a nominal power of 200 WT (200*12= 2.4 kw per array and 4.8 kw for both arrays ) .

    Numbers talk , the limitations of cooling system and array size would limit it's total peak power to detect at high distances . I'm not talking about the detection itself but the point from working against stealth targets is to detect it out of it's BVR missiles otherwise they will take the first shot .

    Also apparently  they are using conduction cooling to the airframe structure instead of liquid cooling,  which would limit the average power for the TR module.

    I'm not saying it's useless ,actually it's brilliant idea but saying it will detect the a stealth target like F-22 from 266 km means a very revolutionary tech for modules power and cooling design and also means the stealth became completely useless , at least they would officially include it on the SUKHOI website.
    Isos
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    Post  Isos on Sat Dec 19, 2020 12:07 am

    The land based L-band NNIIRT Protivnik GE with 8.5 x 5.5 m array , has a 500 KW of peak power .

    As per Rosoboronexport , it has a detection range 240 km of a target that is 1.5 sq.m of RCS at height 5km .

    And as per NPP pulsar the L-band wing based radar on Su-35 has a nominal power of 200 WT (200*12= 2.4 kw per array and 4.8 kw for both arrays ) .

    The Protivnik radar will scan a huge portion of the sky with its big antenna. The radar on su-35 will scan a much smaller area.

    Power is linked to how you concentrate your beam.

    With a 2 kW radar concentrated into a small cone of detection like on most x radar in the fighter's noses you can spot a target much better than if you use a 500kW scanning for half of the sky at once...
    marcellogo
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    Post  marcellogo on Sat Dec 19, 2020 2:54 am

    Isos wrote:
    The land based L-band NNIIRT Protivnik GE with 8.5 x 5.5 m array , has a 500 KW of peak power .

    As per Rosoboronexport , it has a detection range 240 km of a target that is 1.5 sq.m of RCS at height 5km .

    And as per NPP pulsar the L-band wing based radar on Su-35 has a nominal power of 200 WT (200*12= 2.4 kw per array and 4.8 kw for both arrays ) .

    The Protivnik radar will scan a huge portion of the sky with its big antenna. The radar on su-35 will scan a much smaller area.

    Power is linked to how you concentrate your beam.

    With a 2 kW radar concentrated into a small cone of detection like on most x radar in the fighter's noses you can spot a target much better than if you use a 500kW scanning for half of the sky at once...
    The difference between a stealth plane scanning for a conventional one with its onboard X band radar would operate in a conventional way: it scan a large area first once it get some result perform a narrow scan one and begin to track it , all of this  transitioning smoothly from one phase to the successive until it get all the data it need to engage it.
    I expect instead that in the opposite case they would need a consistent amount of time and a less linear shifting from alet's say the first wide area scan made with the L-band radar to the fine tracking necessary to effectively engage the stealth opponent.
    So, one plane would made it in a single stage, the second would perform a series of successive searches receiving just a part of the necessary data from each of them.
    So the L -band in wide search mode would detect the stealth plan at fair distance but would get just a general idea of where is it, so it would need to made a second one in a narrow mode to refine such location and begin a preliminary tracking, after it would pass it to the nose band radar in the x -band that would have to perform a second search in the delimited space in which the former radar has recognized the presence of a stealth plane and keep on narrowing it until it get an enough precise location and finally going to the fine tracking necessary to engage it.
    So, in the end it would need more time to get to the same (or better said a comparable, as I still expect it would need to use a greater portion of its own search power to engage simultaneously a smaller number of targets at the same time) result but it would get it anyway.
    So the presence of two radars is IMHO
    absolutely necessary: the L band one assure the capacity of wide area search and an early detection range even superior to the one of the stealth plane own radar, the X band one the fine tracking capabilities necessary to effectively engage it.

    Still, I think that the Stealth one would reach the condition necessary to launch its own missiles before of the other.cry

    BUT not the necessary distance to do it with an effective chance to hit anything. tongue tongue tongue tongue tongue tongue tongue tongue
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Sat Dec 19, 2020 8:01 am

    I'm not saying it's useless ,actually it's brilliant idea but saying it will detect the a stealth target like F-22 from 266 km means a very revolutionary tech for modules power and cooling design and also means the stealth became completely useless , at least they would officially include it on the SUKHOI website.

    KVS posted above this:

    The expert named the ranges at which the Russian fighter of the 4++ generation Su-35, equipped with the Irbis radar station, can detect the American fighter of the 5th generation F-22 Raptor. According to Leonkov, the latter will be visible at a distance of 266 kilometers, as a result of which "it will not be able to launch its AIM-120D missiles at a range of 180 kilometers unnoticed." wrote:

    Though he did post it in Russian language.

    What he is saying is that Irbis detects the fighter... the wing mounted L band AESA elements are not able to track targets, they are used to detect things not easily spotted by a casual scan at a higher frequency... which would alert the pilot and the system to the presence of something being there that is stealthy and worth a high energy look... which the Irbis should be perfectly capable of doing...

    Note if you look back at post 110 you can see you asked if it was 266km for the L band radar and you will also see I responded with pretty much what I am saying now....... again...

    Still, I think that the Stealth one would reach the condition necessary to launch its own missiles before of the other

    The L band would be used to locate the stealthy target... obviously supported by rather large ground based radar than could track F-35s on borders of countrys thousands of kms away for instance... minimising the amount of scanning needed with the rather more powerful nose mounted radar if needed for a more precise fix (a ground based system could also get a more precise fix too meaning the fighter just needs to launch their missile...

    Note they have mentioned the new Air to Air and Air to Ground missiles for Su-57 include new types of seekers... an R-37M replacement with an IIR seeker and datalink could easily be used to shoot down stealth fighters from well outside the range Ka and Ku band radar would be effective...

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