Su-35 vs F-22/F-35

It is not about peak power... American stealth aircraft are stealthy in a narrow frequency range only...

The land based L-band NNIIRT Protivnik GE with 8.5 x 5.5 m array , has a 500 KW of peak power .

As per Rosoboronexport , it has a detection range 240 km of a target that is 1.5 sq.m of RCS at height 5km .

And as per NPP pulsar the L-band wing based radar on Su-35 has a nominal power of 200 WT (200*12= 2.4 kw per array and 4.8 kw for both arrays ) .

Numbers talk , the limitations of cooling system and array size would limit it's total peak power to detect at high distances . I'm not talking about the detection itself but the point from working against stealth targets is to detect it out of it's BVR missiles otherwise they will take the first shot .

Also apparently  they are using conduction cooling to the airframe structure instead of liquid cooling,  which would limit the average power for the TR module.

I'm not saying it's useless ,actually it's brilliant idea but saying it will detect the a stealth target like F-22 from 266 km means a very revolutionary tech for modules power and cooling design and also means the stealth became completely useless , at least they would officially include it on the SUKHOI website.

The land based L-band NNIIRT Protivnik GE with 8.5 x 5.5 m array , has a 500 KW of peak power .

As per Rosoboronexport , it has a detection range 240 km of a target that is 1.5 sq.m of RCS at height 5km .

And as per NPP pulsar the L-band wing based radar on Su-35 has a nominal power of 200 WT (200*12= 2.4 kw per array and 4.8 kw for both arrays ) .

The Protivnik radar will scan a huge portion of the sky with its big antenna. The radar on su-35 will scan a much smaller area.

Power is linked to how you concentrate your beam.

With a 2 kW radar concentrated into a small cone of detection like on most x radar in the fighter's noses you can spot a target much better than if you use a 500kW scanning for half of the sky at once...

Isos wrote:

The land based L-band NNIIRT Protivnik GE with 8.5 x 5.5 m array , has a 500 KW of peak power .

As per Rosoboronexport , it has a detection range 240 km of a target that is 1.5 sq.m of RCS at height 5km .

And as per NPP pulsar the L-band wing based radar on Su-35 has a nominal power of 200 WT (200*12= 2.4 kw per array and 4.8 kw for both arrays ) .

The Protivnik radar will scan a huge portion of the sky with its big antenna. The radar on su-35 will scan a much smaller area.

Power is linked to how you concentrate your beam.

With a 2 kW radar concentrated into a small cone of detection like on most x radar in the fighter's noses you can spot a target much better than if you use a 500kW scanning for half of the sky at once...

The difference between a stealth plane scanning for a conventional one with its onboard X band radar would operate in a conventional way: it scan a large area first once it get some result perform a narrow scan one and begin to track it , all of this  transitioning smoothly from one phase to the successive until it get all the data it need to engage it.
I expect instead that in the opposite case they would need a consistent amount of time and a less linear shifting from alet's say the first wide area scan made with the L-band radar to the fine tracking necessary to effectively engage the stealth opponent.
So, one plane would made it in a single stage, the second would perform a series of successive searches receiving just a part of the necessary data from each of them.
So the L -band in wide search mode would detect the stealth plan at fair distance but would get just a general idea of where is it, so it would need to made a second one in a narrow mode to refine such location and begin a preliminary tracking, after it would pass it to the nose band radar in the x -band that would have to perform a second search in the delimited space in which the former radar has recognized the presence of a stealth plane and keep on narrowing it until it get an enough precise location and finally going to the fine tracking necessary to engage it.
So, in the end it would need more time to get to the same (or better said a comparable, as I still expect it would need to use a greater portion of its own search power to engage simultaneously a smaller number of targets at the same time) result but it would get it anyway.
So the presence of two radars is IMHO
absolutely necessary: the L band one assure the capacity of wide area search and an early detection range even superior to the one of the stealth plane own radar, the X band one the fine tracking capabilities necessary to effectively engage it.

Still, I think that the Stealth one would reach the condition necessary to launch its own missiles before of the other.

BUT not the necessary distance to do it with an effective chance to hit anything.

I'm not saying it's useless ,actually it's brilliant idea but saying it will detect the a stealth target like F-22 from 266 km means a very revolutionary tech for modules power and cooling design and also means the stealth became completely useless , at least they would officially include it on the SUKHOI website.

KVS posted above this:

The expert named the ranges at which the Russian fighter of the 4++ generation Su-35, equipped with the Irbis radar station, can detect the American fighter of the 5th generation F-22 Raptor. According to Leonkov, the latter will be visible at a distance of 266 kilometers, as a result of which "it will not be able to launch its AIM-120D missiles at a range of 180 kilometers unnoticed." wrote:

Though he did post it in Russian language.

What he is saying is that Irbis detects the fighter... the wing mounted L band AESA elements are not able to track targets, they are used to detect things not easily spotted by a casual scan at a higher frequency... which would alert the pilot and the system to the presence of something being there that is stealthy and worth a high energy look... which the Irbis should be perfectly capable of doing...

Note if you look back at post 110 you can see you asked if it was 266km for the L band radar and you will also see I responded with pretty much what I am saying now....... again...

Still, I think that the Stealth one would reach the condition necessary to launch its own missiles before of the other

The L band would be used to locate the stealthy target... obviously supported by rather large ground based radar than could track F-35s on borders of countrys thousands of kms away for instance... minimising the amount of scanning needed with the rather more powerful nose mounted radar if needed for a more precise fix (a ground based system could also get a more precise fix too meaning the fighter just needs to launch their missile...

Note they have mentioned the new Air to Air and Air to Ground missiles for Su-57 include new types of seekers... an R-37M replacement with an IIR seeker and datalink could easily be used to shoot down stealth fighters from well outside the range Ka and Ku band radar would be effective...

Here is another Indian -in fact, more than never, Russian ;-) -solution. Most of the Indian software and hardware is of Russian origin.



Martyanov said that since the radio photonic radars are available in Russian, there is no way for any stealth aircraft in the world to hide. Now Russia is at a step forward, they are working to embed the radio photonic radar inside the SU-35, SU-30, and Mig-35. It is a new era, now nothing can threaten Russia.

Has someone seen this crap from The National interest ? Now thay wrote that F-35 COULD STOP almost anything "when it comes to deterring or destroying any kind of Russian attack across Eastern Europe has been changed in a profound and measurable way given the amount of arriving F-35s" or "if necessary, quickly launch a massive fifth-generation air assault into Russian airspace instantly should that become necessary." Is there anyone left with some kind of brain in the West ?


Could European & US F-35s Save the Baltics from a Russian Invasion?

F-35s are taking to the skies all over Europe. That paints a new picture when it comes to any ability to deter or destroy Russian forces from the Baltic Sea.
A quick look at a map of the Baltic Sea raises new possibilities for U.S. and NATO allied Air Forces in Northern Europe. It's all thanks to the rapid arrival of new Lockheed Martin F-35 stealth fighter jets.
Just last year, Denmark received its first F-35, Norway conducted F-35 training missions, the Royal Netherlands Air Force declared its F-35s operational. Poland increased its F-35 force, U.S. and UK aircraft carriers and surface ships conducted joint-F-35 missions, and Finland and Switzerland recently chose the F-35 for their air forces as well.

All of these events, unfolding over just this past year, paint a new picture when it comes to any ability to deter or destroy Russian forces from the Baltic Sea. This concentration of F-35 power in Northern Europe introduces the possibility that the United States and its allies could, if necessary, quickly launch a massive fifth-generation air assault into Russian airspace instantly should that become necessary. Not only does Finland share a border with Russia, but the Russian coastline and the Baltic states border the Baltic Sea as well. This places Russia easily within the combat attack radius of F-35s from Poland, Finland, Norway, Denmark, the Netherlands and possibly even the UK. This tactical reality, greatly enhanced by the F-35's multi-national Multifunction Advanced Data Link connecting all F-35s, does not even take ocean launched F-35s into account. U.S. and allied amphibious assault craft or even aircraft carriers could also launch F-35s from areas in the Baltic Sea as well. This possibility may have been part of the thinking this past year when U.S. and UK F-35s conducted nearly 1,300 sorties together to improve readiness, interoperability, and warfare preparations. As part of this exercise, the UK Royal Navy’s HMS Queen Elizabeth launched F-35Bs from both the US Marine Corps and Royal Air Force.

“Nine nations have F-35s operating from a base on their home soil, 12 services have declared Initial Operational Capability and six services have employed F-35s in combat,” a statement from Lockheed Martin on F-35 activities in 2021 said.

The rapid arrival of new F-35s has brought new dynamics to play, which have been documented in a widely read and quoted 2016 Rand Corporation study called “Reinforcing Deterrence on NATO’s Eastern Flank, Wargaming the Defense of the Baltics.” The published report, emerging from extensive wargaming, made the determination that the Baltic states would be quickly overrun by Russian forces in the event of any invasion. The study recommends that the Pentagon substantially reinforce its combat presence and forward-deployment activities in the region.
“The games' findings are unambiguous: As presently postured, NATO cannot successfully defend the territory of its most exposed members. Fortunately, it will not require Herculean effort to avoid such a failure. Further gaming indicates that a force of about seven brigades, including three heavy armored brigades—adequately supported by airpower, land-based fires, and other enablers on the ground and ready to fight at the onset of hostilities—could suffice to prevent the rapid overrun of the Baltic states,” the study’s abstract states.

However, what about considering this 2016 assessment in a 2022 context? In 2016, there were not as many F-35s operating in Northern Europe as there are today, by large margins. Would the proximity, access, and lethality of a nearby multi-national F-35 force change this equation? The quick answer: absolutely. Russia does not operate as many of its own Su-57 5th-generation aircraft, which may not even compare to F-35s in terms of performance. Consequently, a dispersed, networked force of U.S. and European F-35 launched from the air and sea would be very well positioned to slow down, stop or even destroy a Russian ground invasion of the Baltics by quickly establishing air superiority. The strategic circumstance when it comes to deterring or destroying any kind of Russian attack across Eastern Europe has been changed in a profound and measurable way given the amount of arriving F-35s.

Right. They bomb Russia with their F-35s and Russia replies with missile strikes against which they will have little defense.
That is assuming the F-35s won't be intercepted which they likely would be.

TNI is typical US clickbait.

Russia has multiple overlapping radar networks which will vector Russian fighters into the area the F-35s are in. NATO has more airplanes on paper than Russia but F-35s require extensive ground handling facilities which can be targeted. If I was the US I would be more concerned with the modernized MiG-31BM than the Su-57. It can fly at twice the speed of the F-35 and has a huge radar with longer range missiles than the AIM-120D.

The real reason why blue check nations purchase the F-35 is because Lock-Heeb has sold them on the fantasy that with it, they could sweep the skies of Russia/China clean and bomb these nations with impunity like they're some third word shithole with small arms and harsh language for air defence.

Total nonsense of course. Even if we're to take manufacturer's word on it, and inflate by 100% (because the US always understates its capabilties, while Russia/China overstates theirs ) - what's stopping Russia and China from just unleashing their nuclear arsenals on your nuclear-free soy-state?

Some Serbs seem pro russian to me.

Has someone seen this crap from The National interest ?

No, why would I?

Now thay wrote that F-35 COULD STOP almost anything "when it comes to deterring or destroying any kind of Russian attack across Eastern Europe has been changed in a profound and measurable way given the amount of arriving F-35s" or "if necessary, quickly launch a massive fifth-generation air assault into Russian airspace instantly should that become necessary."

So what? Let them find out the hard way how false that presumption is.

Is there anyone left with some kind of brain in the West ?

Yes, but they're also evil so they don't care if their actions leave half of Europe smoldering. That's why Russia hopes for the best but prepares for the worst.

TMA1 wrote:Some Serbs seem pro russian to me.

Not some but most of them because Belgrade (as well as Serbia) was bombed on three occasions just in the past 20th century. We Serbs are christians but orthodox christians, as well as Russians, and that is the main reason why are we so "beloved" in the West. They (West) always saw a "little Russia" in Serbia. Belgrade was shelled first in the First word war and captured by Germans, Belgrade was bombed by the Germans in 1941 and in 1944 the city was devasted again from the Allies, because Germans were still in the city. Then NATO agression comes in 1999 (first military mission of Bundeswehr after Second world war) and city was in pain again.  
But dont forget one thing and that is that Serbia had bloody battle in 1389 with Turkes and after that battle the bells rang even on french Notre Dame catedhral in Paris. Yes, Serbs have lost that battle but thay have also stopped further advance of Turkish army (Ottoman Empire) in the West.

"which may not even compare to F-35s in terms of performance."

Atmosphere wrote:"which may not even compare to F-35s in terms of performance."

Yes, its like comparing Porsche 911 GT2RS (Su-57) with my diesel powered Audi A4 (F-35).

1: Italy LOVES Russia. (And is very much loved by the Russians).

2: the only thing that the F-35 can stop right now is the economic budgets given the costs of those nations that are using it.

)

tanino wrote:1: Italy LOVES Russia. (And is very much loved by the Russians).

2: the only thing that the F-35 can stop right now is the economic budgets given the costs of those nations that are using it.

)

Believe it or not i am a supporter of Italian national football team since early childhood. Of course when Italy doesnt play game against Serbia. Of course we are not fans of german or english football national team. France standts better than Germany and England but not even close to Italia.
If you are from ITALIA i will write just one thing and you will know what i mean; ITS COMING TO ROME !!!!!

tanino wrote:1: Italy LOVES Russia. (And is very much loved by the Russians).

2: the only thing that the F-35 can stop right now is the economic budgets given the costs of those nations that are using it.

)

introduce yourslef pls here:
https://www.russiadefence.net/f6-member-introductions-and-rules

Podlodka77 wrote:

tanino wrote:1: Italy LOVES Russia. (And is very much loved by the Russians).

2: the only thing that the F-35 can stop right now is the economic budgets given the costs of those nations that are using it.

)

Believe it or not i am a supporter of Italian national football team since early childhood. Of course when Italy doesnt play game against Serbia. Of course we are not fans of german or english football national team. France standts better than Germany and England but not even close to Italia.
If you are from ITALIA i will write just one thing and you will know what i mean; ITS COMING TO ROME !!!!!  

introduce yourslef pls here:
https://www.russiadefence.net/f6-member-introductions-and-rules

I thought tanino has been around a bit. Also yeah podlodka77 introduce yourself on that thread bro I've enjoyed some of your posts!

Thank you, my brother in arms...

Podlodka77 wrote:

Atmosphere wrote:"which may not even compare to F-35s in terms of performance."

Yes, its like comparing Porsche 911 GT2RS (Su-57) with my diesel powered Audi A4 (F-35).

One thing i never understand is the audacity of the claims surrounding the "inferiority" of the Su-57, when you look at trial interviews you will notice how examining an aircraft takes a very long time, even for experts and pilots, and yet you have people online claiming all these fallacies without a shadow of engineering background or anything similar.

Atmosphere wrote:

Podlodka77 wrote:

Atmosphere wrote:"which may not even compare to F-35s in terms of performance."

Yes, its like comparing Porsche 911 GT2RS (Su-57) with my diesel powered Audi A4 (F-35).

One thing i never understand is the audacity of the claims surrounding the "inferiority" of the Su-57, when you look at trial interviews you will notice how examining an aircraft takes a very long time, even for experts and pilots, and yet you have people online claiming all these fallacies without a shadow of engineering background or anything similar.

Every rider likes his own horse but western propaganda has surpassed everyone else. I must give them credit for that because in next areas they are the best; they know whats better for you than you do, they are a special nation, dirty propaganda, conspiracy theories, double standards, manipulation and false promises, they have 'Gods given right' to enyoj in wealth but you dont have that possibility.
And thats why they are selling many F-35's because if someone else wants russian fighter jets - sanctions follows !

The western money focus proves that the 120 million dollar F-35 must be better than the 50-60 odd million dollar Su-57... because money means everything...

That of course ignores that Russia spends less than the UK on defence and yet seems to get rather better bang for buck across the board...

The Russians detected F-35s operating on the Iran/Iraq border from Russia... that is probably the best indication of how stealthy it actually is, but if more evidence is needed then if it can just fly into Russian airspace... bomb anything it pleases and then fly out without being noticed or challenged... like a cruise missile or drone attacking critical Saudi oil infrastructure... then why does Israel launch F-35 attacks using expensive and mostly ineffective standoff weapons without entering Syrian airspace?

The F-35 is a dog and they know it.... they didn't want Turkey operating S-400s and F-35s because they didn't want Turkey to find out how bad their stealth actually is.

The irony of all these F-35s appearing near Russian borders gives them all the chances they could possibly need to track the F-35 with all sorts of Russia radar on the ground, and in the air....

The irony will be when the Russians reveal that the most stealthy and most capable F-35 is the Chinese version... they likely fixed its problems and made it affordable to operate too.

The enormous expense to buy F-35s and the obscene operational costs means I want every HATO country to buy 200 of them... it is the fastest way to bankrupt the whole rotten empire...

Yeah no kidding. Once Poland and Finland get their F-35s the Russians will have plenty of chances to test their radars against it. Oh right. Luneburg lenses. That must be why they can see them. F-35 stealth is like that children's tale the Emperor's New Clothes.

Russia should give loans to countries in Europe to buy F-35´s. Good investment into the defence of the motherland.

Imo fifth generation doesn't mean stealth, to begin with. It's an attribute out of many. The T14 isn't a fourth gen tank simply because it has an APS.