Su-35 vs F-22/F-35

I doubt that Su-35 have jammer to jam Link 16 datalink, but for sure have ground based air defense, so in Russian air space Su-35 and other fighters will have also support of ground jammers, which could blind their opponents.

GarryB wrote:

but
also potentially high power jamming against Link
16 and GPS channels, as well as embedded IFF
capabilities.

His speculation. I have never seen the Russians claim any ability for it to jam anything.

As far as I am aware it can be used to scan for targets to basically detect their presence and very rough location, and likely can listen passively for emissions.

it seems true

Geolocate on JTIDS. Many extol the advantages bestowed by ‘Network Centricity’. However, if passive L-Band radars in ‘sniffing’ mode detect emissions from JTIDS nodes – or IFF – then the geolocation of these emitters can be performed at long range. This knowledge then confers a combat advantage to those with the L-Band sensors.

http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-NOTAM-140909-1.html

http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-2009-06.html

David Cenciotti from 'The Aviationist' has an interesting piece on the Flanker vis-a-vis the F-22 and F-35:

the aviationist wrote:Forget the F-22 and F-35, this is a real Super Maneuverable Fighter plane: the Russian Su-35 Flanker-E

The Su-35 (NATO designation Flanker E), Russia’s latest version of the famous super-maneuverable multirole fighter jet has demonstrated its stunning capabilities during the first day of the 50th Paris Air Show at Le Bourget.

During its display, the 4++ generation aircraft has showcased some almost impossible manoeuvres, demonstrating unbelievable low-speed handling authority.

...

Aviationist

:russia

Meteor has 250+ km range just combine it with AN/APG-81+ VSI HMDS helmet and F-35 won't be needed to maneuver. Su-35 chasing it from 360 degree will just crash and burn.

Will this possible ?

moskit wrote::russia

Meteor has 250+ km range just combine it with AN/APG-81+ VSI HMDS helmet and F-35 won't be needed to maneuver. Su-35 chasing it from 360 degree will just crash and burn.

Will this possible ?

Only if the SU-35 has no radar, no active or passive counter measures, no MAWS and only one working engine, also if the F-35 has AWACS support, U.S BVR can't be done without AWACS or at the very least the F-35 hasn't demonstrated such abilities yet.

Update: This missile doesn't have a range of 250+km it has a killzone of around 60km and max range of 100+km which places it around the AIM-120C and R-77-1, and wow is this price tag for real 2mill pounds (GBP) a pop.

AlfaT8 wrote:

moskit wrote::russia

Meteor has 250+ km range just combine it with AN/APG-81+ VSI HMDS helmet and F-35 won't be needed to maneuver. Su-35 chasing it from 360 degree will just crash and burn.

Will this possible ?

Only if the SU-35 has no radar, no active or passive counter measures, no MAWS and only one working engine, also if the F-35 has AWACS support, U.S BVR can't be done without AWACS or at the very least the F-35 hasn't demonstrated such abilities yet.

Update: This missile doesn't have a range of 250+km it has a killzone of around 60km and max range of 100+km which places it around the AIM-120C and R-77-1, and wow is this price tag for real 2mill pounds (GBP) a pop.

What is the no escape zone that they talk about anywhere you see the name of Meteor ?? You can escape evry missile and jam it.

To deal with F-22/35 you just need a stealth mig-21 with Pak-fa's OLS and ground based long range radar to guide them to the target. It will have a small rcs like 0.001 and would be detected by F-22 from 50 km while the OLS will detect them at 60-100 km.

A CGI of proposed F-15 2040C.2040C is a service life extension programme with some notable enhancements to the fighting capabilities of F-15C to make them potent enough to handle emerging threats & enable them to fly until 2040 or later.Proposed sensor package includes AN/APG-82(V)1 AESA developed for Silent Eagle,Talon HATE dual purpose pod.The upgrade will also unlock 5 more weapon stations through 'quad pack carriage system' & will boost the total Air-to-Air missile carrying capacities to 16AAMs.F-15 2040C will supplement F-22 Raptors in airsuperiority missions & will serve as a 'missile truck' for the leading F-22s (just like the quiver of an archer) in a mixed flight. how would a fully armed su 35 counter this new threat ?

moskit wrote: A CGI of proposed F-15 2040C.2040C is a service  life extension programme with some notable enhancements to the fighting capabilities of F-15C to make them potent enough to handle emerging threats & enable them to fly until 2040 or later.Proposed sensor package includes AN/APG-82(V)1 AESA developed for Silent Eagle,Talon HATE dual purpose pod.The upgrade will also unlock 5 more weapon stations through 'quad pack carriage system' & will boost the total Air-to-Air missile carrying capacities to 16AAMs.F-15 2040C will supplement F-22 Raptors in airsuperiority missions & will serve as a 'missile truck' for the leading F-22s (just like the quiver of an archer) in a mixed flight. how would a fully armed su 35 counter this new threat ?

Su-35S is considered to has better electronics and jammers. All these upgrades aim for F-15 to reduce the Flanker’s edge but no decision has been made yet. I had read that they also were considering that restarting production of the F-22, or buy brand new F-15s

Meteor has 250+ km range just combine it with AN/APG-81+ VSI HMDS helmet and F-35 won't be needed to maneuver. Su-35 chasing it from 360 degree will just crash and burn.

The F-35 hopes it does not have to manouver because it is not that great at manouvering...

Missiles are never 100%... why do you think the F-35 carrys a gun?

With very limited internal space for weapons and external weapons ruining its stealth capabilities the F-35 will be at a serious disadvantage against an Su-35... which is faster, and has longer flight range, carries rather more ready to fire missiles and also has a gun and very powerful radar and IRST and datalink.

Assuming the sophisticated self defence suites and likely towed jammers mean neither has effective missiles then it comes down to guns and manouver capability and also speed and range to determine who can run away from whom... and I think you will agree the F-35 cannot run and wont likely be able to hide either.

What is the no escape zone that they talk about anywhere you see the name of Meteor ?? You can escape evry missile and jam it.

The NEZ or no escape zone is the range at which the missile is powered and therefore able to pull rather high g turns and recover energy.

The meteor has a large NEZ because it is ramjet powered which burns for a large portion of its flight range.

Most missiles have an acceleration phase with a high energy rocket motor and then a cruise phase with lower energy longer burning fuel that maintains speed for much longer range. Many short to medium range missiles just have the initial fuel and accelerate rapidly and then coast to their target... the latter types of missiles can have greatly reduced max ranges if they have to do a lot of manouvering and can simply literally run out of momentum and fall from the skies if the target changes direction a lot.

Remember a missile has tiny control surfaces and little lifting wing area unlike an aircraft.

Also some missiles like the R-73 have thrust vectoring so while they are in powered flight their ability to turn is very high. When the rocket motor burns out they rely on control surfaces and so their ability to turn reduces significantly when they are coasting.

Su-35S is considered to has better electronics and jammers. All these upgrades aim for F-15 to reduce the Flanker’s edge but no decision has been made yet. I had read that they also were considering that restarting production of the F-22, or buy brand new F-15s

So they are pretty much admitting even 2 and a half thousand F-35s wont be enough and wont be able to carry enough weapons to cope with an Su-35 equipped enemy.

The amusing thing is that the Su-35 could perform the same role in the Russian military... with PAK FAs near the border and ground based sensors scanning for threats the Su-35s armed with R-37Ms could be fired from 300km away to kill those F-15s and any AWACS or JSTARS operating over enemy territory...

For any one who understands Radar , How true is this  

I personally doubt F-35 can maintain a 0.001 m2 RCS that must be a very narrow figure from a re-rediating cone

wait ,  this video claims the perfect situation where the rcs is 0.001 sqm , this will not happen in real life , the plane will get painted from various directions . Also , the IRBIS E has a reach of 56 km against a 0.001 sqm target and not the value presented .
Also , the video claims that the apg 81 has a comparable if not better range performance than the IRBIS E , based on what did he come to the conclusion?
He also said the apg 77 v 1 has an even longer range , which is wrong because look https://www.forecastinternational.com/archive/disp_pdf.cfm?DACH_RECNO=945 the maximmum range with the *10 watt modules* is 160mi , or 260 km . Lol im starting to get tired of people just assuming superiority with no numbers to prove .
Also , there are UHF radars , such as Gamma DE with enough resolution to guide a missile . And from considerable ranges .

Guys what do you think of the radar comparison this guy has presented?

Its actually decently well explained, in terms of understanding the topic, i am suprised. Its good plastic explanation of basics.

well ye its well explained , but militarov do you agree with his comparison between those radars?

In this video the formulas are correct but it's not the whole truth! Formulas explain not everything, so it's just too simple!

Once and for all!!!

A stealth fighter with radar ON is never really stealth. Enemy jets can see the radarbeam of stealth fighter before his radar can see anything. For example a jet can detect with his radar at a range of 150 km a normal enemy (no stealth), but his radar can bee seen at much longer distance. To avoid this special radars are used in stealth jets LPI radar (Low Probability of Intercept). They try with LPI to use several techniques to hide the radar, emitted from stealth jets, for example using a broader spectra of wavelenght. This works if the stealth jets engages old enemy jets, technology of the 80ies. But against modern jets it's really useless, because the sensors are much better and the power of computer in the 21st century is a bit different than 30 years before, so the intercepted radar signals could be processed very easy to get valuable information!

So the F-35 will never see a Su-35 on radar screen before the Su-35 see the F-35. In reality boths jets with radar on will detect each other at the same time and same distance.
What is now the great advantage of stealth??? Datalink is the answer! F-22 and F-35 are able to be guided by AWACS, or other jets with datalink capability, with their radar OFF! So a jet can be out of fighting distance and guide the stealth fighters to intercept enemies. In reality against a country like China or Russia the concept will maybe not work, but against smaller countries like Iraq it worked very fine.

So stealth technology is a really special technology that gives you a advantage in SOME VERY SPECIAL situations not more! It's not a Wunderwaffe. In a great big conflict it can be complete useless or the game changer, depends on the tactic and the opponent!

HM1199 wrote:well ye its well explained , but militarov do you agree with his comparison between those radars?

One to one situation is bullshit! If F-35 turns radar on he is visible and so you can shoot him down!

Tha AN/APG-81in the F-35 has a detection range of 150 km against a target with RCS 1 qm. But, but, but...not in the LPI mode!!! in LPI mode the detection range is drastic lower!

If F-35 is guided via LPI datalink the situation is different.

azi , the su 35 uses the L150-35 RWR with a number of identifiable radars increased to 1024 , is it able in your opinion to detect lpi radar?

HM1199 wrote:azi , the su 35 uses the L150-35 RWR with a number of identifiable radars increased to 1024 , is it able in your opinion to detect lpi radar?

It's not a question of radar, it's question of data processing. LPI Radar seems like background noise to most old fighters, but if you know to filter the correct signals it wil shine like a star. I don't know but I think the russians know this for long and F-35 is with radar in LPI mode not invisible to a Su-35.

Theoretical a old Mig-21 with old hardware but modern computer to process the correct data can fuck a F-35. Ok, still not best option but theoretical possible.

ah i see , azi , and does filtering the correct signals work against all lpi methods ? for example would it work against an apg 81 sending complex waveforms and different frequencies?

HM1199 wrote:ah i see , azi , and does filtering the correct signals work against all lpi methods ? for example would it work against an apg 81 sending complex waveforms and different frequencies?

It depends from the type RWR system you use.
They are basically radio receivers, the difference is that the older ones would look at the pulse repeating frequence; once they saw a series same radio waves incoming they knew it was a radar, alerted its presence and began to catalogate the incoming emission to know what radar it was.
It is not that such RWR don't see the waves send by a radar in LPI mode, just as they are not repeating themselves the bell simply doesn't ring out.
Now, actual RWR are complete ESM system: they have a way greater angular resolution, so they can ascertain the emission point of any incoming radio waves with great precision, if they sense a standard radar he previously said bell ring if a series of casual like emissions coming from a single point in space, another bell ring.

so basically the idea is that modern rwr's can determine from which point exactly those radio waves are coming and pinpoint the source right?
and by extention , the R77 -1 's seeker has a second passive channel , that seeks radio emissions from a max range of 200 km , so we can say that a su 35 can position the radar of the apg 81 and fling a missile at it at a reasonable range such as 50 - 60 km for a missile kill?

and by extention , the R77 -1 's seeker has a second passive channel , that seeks radio emissions from a max range of 200 km , so we can say that a su 35 can position the radar of the apg 81 and fling a missile at it at a reasonable range such as 50 - 60 km for a missile kill?

No... in passive radar homing mode an R-77-1 could detect an incoming AMRAAM with its ARH seeker active and attack it, but a LPI radar spends 95% of its time listening and less than 5% emitting so a passive radar homing missile would not have a constant signal to home in on.

Having said that NATO datalinks are L band... the same wavelength as the wing mounted radar arrays in the Su-35 and PAK FA so lots of datalink traffic would allow very long range AAMs to be used to deal with assets like AWACS and JSTARS that might be supplying data to F-22s and F-35s...

Watched a video about the combat simulation between these two, not long time ago:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZoF7hu0wAI&t=150s

So, what do you guys think, is the situation really that bad for the Sukhoy or the vid is just another Pro-US BS ?

marketing statements vs marketing statements - who wins? Don't know cause no one knows what each side is really using and what are the real perimeters.

Some claims by USA pilots flying F-22 state its a POS and has trouble finding Sukhois. Some others claim its the second coming of Jesus.

We are here for knowledge and facts. Not youtube video fantasies.

Very simply the Su-35 and F-22 should be immune to each others medium range AAMs, the Su-35 can carry rather more air to air weapons, is faster and has longer flight range.

It also has a range of optical and radar sensors for detecting enemy aircraft, including wing mounted L band radar AESA array antennas.

Even assuming they don't work there are plenty of long wave ground based sensors that would be working with the Flanker to detect the F-22 at long range.

As the Su-35 approaches the F-22 it will be fired upon with AMRAAMs, but its EW capabilities should protect it from them, just as the R-77s probably wouldn't get a decent lock. The long range IR guided R-27TETs might be interesting as stealth aircraft like the B-2 have been detected using IR sensors.

Either way it will eventually come down to manouvering and guns and in that case my money is on the Su-35... faster, more weapons, more manouverable, longer flight range.

GarryB wrote:Very simply the Su-35 and F-22 should be immune to each others medium range AAMs, the Su-35 can carry rather more air to air weapons, is faster and has longer flight range.

It also has a range of optical and radar sensors for detecting enemy aircraft, including wing mounted L band radar AESA array antennas.

Even assuming they don't work there are plenty of long wave ground based sensors that would be working with the Flanker to detect the F-22 at long range.

As the Su-35 approaches the F-22 it will be fired upon with AMRAAMs, but its EW capabilities should protect it from them, just as the R-77s probably wouldn't get a decent lock. The long range IR guided R-27TETs might be interesting as stealth aircraft like the B-2 have been detected using IR sensors.

Either way it will eventually come down to manouvering and guns and in that case my money is on the Su-35... faster, more weapons, more manouverable, longer flight range.

Why F-22 should be immune to R-77-1 and R-37M ???