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    Su-35 vs F-22/F-35

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    Post  Admin Sat May 04, 2019 8:26 pm

    medo wrote: Su-34 radar is also very powerful and capable.

    Powerful compared to what? It is just powerful enough to use R-77 at its full head on range. The radar is less capable than the Zhuk of the 29SMT that has far better ground mapping and sea detection ranges.
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    Post  medo Sun May 05, 2019 10:37 am

    Su-34 PESA radar V004 have 15kW peak power and range of 370 km. I know, you use capabilities of this radar from prototype in nineties and even that radar was comparable with zaslon in MiG-31. Serial Su-34 have well upgraded radar with increased range to 370 km comparing to 200 -250 km range of prototype from nineties. It already use R-27ER missiles, so there is no problem to use R-77-1 in full range. True, Su-34 didn't get those missiles yet, but it will as they are comming in RuAF armament.

    Su-35 vs F-22/F-35 - Page 5 297710

    In air to air capabilities V004 is comparable with zaslon radar. Prototype from nineties have similar capabilities in range, power, could track 10 targets and engage 4 targets simultaneously. Serial Su-34 radar is upgraded and is comparable with Zaslon-AM from MiG-31BM. Zaslon-AM have increased range to 320 km, while V004 to 370 km. Domestic V004 could detect 3 m2 target at range of 200 km, for export range will be at 120 km. True, Zaslon-AM could track 24 targets and engage 8 targets simultaneously, but MiG-31BM is pure interceptor. V004 primary roles are air to ground and air to sea modes, but even with 10 tracking targets and engaging 4 air and 2 ground targets simultaneously is still on the level of many modern fighters.

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    Post  Isos Sun May 05, 2019 11:16 am

    Open sources say 90km against fighters. But its mainly a bomber costing ~25 million $ so ...
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    Post  medo Sun May 05, 2019 3:33 pm

    Isos wrote:Open sources say 90km against fighters. But its mainly a bomber costing ~25 million $ so ...

    This is from the early prototype from the nineties. Radar went through upgrade for serial Su-34, because its capabilities were not good enough for RuAF. Max. range was also increased from 200 km to 370 km. Peak power is 15 kW, so detecting range against fighter at 200 km is quite real comparing to Irbis, with 20 kW peak power and detecting range against 3 m2 at 400 km. V004 is more powerful than Bars-M radar and have big PESA antenna. Usual info are from early prototype or for export model. Yes, it is primarily working in air to ground and air to sea modes, but its air to air capabilities are not to be underestimated. Su-34 could take care for itself and doesn't need fighter protection. It have same missiles in armament as other fighters.
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    Post  miketheterrible Sun May 05, 2019 11:49 pm

    Its physics.

    Energy input = energy output (minus loss). If the radar uses 15kw of power, then it is outputting 15kw of power and this gives indication of its capabilities. Newer sensitive electronics onboard allow detection and tracking to be stretched out a bit more.
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    Post  Isos Mon May 06, 2019 12:00 am

    Any source ?

    Its physics.

    Energy input = energy output (minus loss). If the radar uses 15kw of power, then it is outputting 15kw of power and this gives indication of its capabilities. Newer sensitive electronics onboard allow detection and tracking to be stretched out a bit more.

    Mig-25 had a 400kW radar. I always suggested to use it by combining it with itbis E technology so that they have a 400kW irbis E which would be theorically 20 times more powerfull than normal irvis E. Fuck LPI if you burn and see 600km everything in front of you.
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    Post  miketheterrible Mon May 06, 2019 12:05 am

    400kw radar? what?

    Anyway, it is also if the transistor is capable of handling the output.  That is why a N036 has similar performance to Irbis-E because both are 20kw radars.

    As for finding info on V004, good luck.

    The reason behind this info as BARS R radar going from its 140km 3m^2 detection range (1999) to roughly about 300km 3m^2 detection range that was posted by former member of this forums and was posted on keypub.  It was adjustments to the T/R module (single due to PESA design) and the sensitive components like the microprocessor that can translate the data quicker and more accurately.
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    Post  Isos Mon May 06, 2019 8:39 am

    400kw radar? what?

    Well I just checked and some say 600kW.

    https://www.globalaircraft.org/planes/mig-25_foxbat.pl

    Thanks to the use of vacuum tubes, the MiG-25P's original Smerch-A (Tornado, NATO reporting name 'Foxfire') radar had enormous power %u2014 about 600 kilowatts.

    Vaccum tubes were also resistant to nuclear EMP. It could cook a chiken if used on the ground.

    Replace the irbis T/R with small vaccum tubes and boost the power output. The computer should be able to handle that easily. In lock on mode at small ranges enemy's transistors should burn.
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    Post  Admin Mon May 06, 2019 2:30 pm

    medo wrote:Su-34 PESA radar V004 have 15kW peak power and range of 370 km. I know, you use capabilities of this radar from prototype in nineties and even that radar was comparable with zaslon in MiG-31. Serial Su-34 have well upgraded radar with increased range to 370 km comparing to 200 -250 km range of prototype from nineties.

    The V004 certainly doesn't have those capabilities. It is about as cheap of a multi-function radar as one can produce.

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    Post  miketheterrible Mon May 06, 2019 6:36 pm

    https://www.sukhoi.org/products/samolety/254/

    This is the info about the radar for Su-32 (not local 34). So there is no doubt that V004 is far more advanced now
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    Post  Admin Mon May 06, 2019 10:16 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:https://www.sukhoi.org/products/samolety/254/

    This is the info about the radar for Su-32 (not local 34). So there is no doubt that V004 is far more advanced now

    Those are the same specs listed for the reveal at MAKS 2005, nothing about the capabilities of V004 has changed.
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    Post  miketheterrible Mon May 06, 2019 11:14 pm

    Vladimir79 wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:https://www.sukhoi.org/products/samolety/254/

    This is the info about the radar for Su-32 (not local 34). So there is no doubt that V004 is far more advanced now

    Those are the same specs listed for the reveal at MAKS 2005, nothing about the capabilities of V004 has changed.

    Yes they have like everything else.

    Bars was 140km at first.  Now over 300km for adjustments.  This is actually documented.

    Things don't sit idle.  ZaslonM/AM is not same as Zaslon.
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    Post  Admin Tue May 07, 2019 7:59 am

    miketheterrible wrote:

    Yes they have like everything else.

    Bars was 140km at first.  Now over 300km for adjustments.  This is actually documented.

    Things don't sit idle.  ZaslonM/AM is not same as Zaslon.

    Then post some new specs because detecting a railway bridge at 100km isn't new. It is still only detecting a vehicle at 30km.
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    Post  Isos Wed May 08, 2019 12:35 pm

    Maybe they need to stop the production of su-34 and shift to su-64, twin seat bomber of su-57, once su-57 start production.

    Family of planes like the armata family. It will reduce the price per fighters as more will be build.
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    Post  miketheterrible Wed May 08, 2019 1:15 pm

    I think more details will emerge when Su-34M debuts
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    Post  medo Wed May 08, 2019 5:44 pm

    Vladimir79 wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:https://www.sukhoi.org/products/samolety/254/

    This is the info about the radar for Su-32 (not local 34). So there is no doubt that V004 is far more advanced now

    Those are the same specs listed for the reveal at MAKS 2005, nothing about the capabilities of V004 has changed.

    Those specs are from early prototype from nineties. That radar is not in Su-34, because RuAF didn't accept it and was than upgraded. RuAF Su-34 have upgraded radar according to RuAF needs. Su-34 is very important fighter-bomber in RuAF and we could well see its value in Syria. There is a good reason, why Russia didn't bring much info for that upgraded radar.
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    Post  GarryB Thu May 09, 2019 1:22 am

    Information about export models is generally easy to get, but in service equipment is secret and they have no real reason to give that sort of information to anyone.
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    Su-35 vs F-22/F-35 - Page 5 Empty Su-35 will see the F-22 [& F-35] because of the "Achilles heel"

    Post  kvs Fri Dec 11, 2020 6:50 am

    Специалист утверждает, что в отчетах, учитывающих эффективную площадь рассеяния (ЭПР), «не всегда указывается дальность обнаружения, на которой проводилось измерение», в результате чего приводимые там данные «не совсем объективны». wrote:

    Indeed the range at which the radar cross section was determined is critical. All those BS numbers such as 0.001 cm^2 or whatever
    are utterly worthless without the range from source to detector.

    Эксперт назвал дальности, на которых российский истребитель поколения 4++ Су-35, оснащенный радиолокационной станцией (РЛС) «Ирбис», может обнаружить американский истребитель 5-го поколения F-22 Raptor. По словам Леонкова, последний будет виден на расстоянии 266 километров, вследствие чего «не сможет незаметно осуществить пуск своих ракет AIM-120D на дальность, составляющую 180 километров». wrote:

    So the Su-35 with its Irbis detector can clearly see the F-22 at 266 km. This is greater than the range of the AIM-120D missiles used by
    the Raptor.

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    Post  ahmedfire Sun Dec 13, 2020 11:04 pm

    So the Su-35 with its Irbis detector can clearly see the F-22 at 266 km. This is greater than the range of the AIM-120D missiles used by
    the Raptor.

    266 km based on the L band radar ?
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    Post  GarryB Mon Dec 14, 2020 1:24 am

    No, Irbis is the radar in the nose of the Su-35... though it might use the wing mounted L band AESA to augment its ability to detect targets too... Like the ground based NEBO uses three different radars operating in three different frequencies to detect and track difficult targets.
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    Post  Backman Mon Dec 14, 2020 2:32 pm

    Isos wrote:Maybe they need to stop the production of su-34 and shift to su-64, twin seat bomber of su-57, once su-57 start production.

    Family of planes like the armata family. It will reduce the price per fighters as more will be build.

    I know you are half joking here. But since the su 57 is an evolutionary design based on the T-50, this could probably be done in the future. Imagine an su 57 based Hell Duck.

    Basically any variant of the su 27 could be 57'ized.
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    Post  Isos Mon Dec 14, 2020 2:46 pm

    Backman wrote:
    Isos wrote:Maybe they need to stop the production of su-34 and shift to su-64, twin seat bomber of su-57, once su-57 start production.

    Family of planes like the armata family. It will reduce the price per fighters as more will be build.

    I know you are half joking here. But since the su 57 is an evolutionary design based on the T-50, this could probably be done in the future. Imagine an su 57 based Hell Duck.

    Basically any variant of the su 27 could be 57'ized.

    No joke at all. Su-57 will be what su-27 was to flanker family.

    We will see carrier based su-57k. Export model su-57MKI (india will probably buy a twin seater). Bomber version like su-34. Unmanned version. A command and control version like su-30SM to control other aircraft and drones.

    The thing is that it is a modern plateform and will be much more ingegrated than su-27/30/33/34.
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    Post  LMFS Mon Dec 14, 2020 2:54 pm

    They have the Okhotnik, I am not sure a strike version of the Su-57 is really needed...
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    Post  Isos Mon Dec 14, 2020 3:11 pm

    LMFS wrote:They have the Okhotnik, I am not sure a strike version of the Su-57 is really needed...

    The philosophy is not tge same as for the older generation of su-27/34. But IMO su-57 will be a family like su-27 was.

    It's doubtfull to see a su-34 version but a twin seater specialized in strikes with a guy in the cockpit coordinating all the drones and su-57 or flankers will be needed.

    AI in su-57 can't replace a real operator that was debriefed before the mission about enemy positions, numbers, goal of the mission...
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    Post  magnumcromagnon Mon Dec 14, 2020 3:38 pm

    LMFS wrote:They have the Okhotnik, I am not sure a strike version of the Su-57 is really needed...

    S-70 is not a replacement for anything, just a complimentary piece. That's how Uncle Sham thinks. It's kind of like how the Russian's planned on flying Su-35's with their Su-57's, when the Americans said F-35's would replace NATO fighters. Rolling Eyes  Embarassed   It won't replace manned stealth fighters, manned CAS, manned strike fighters. If a Su-57 offshoot designed in the same degree as a replacement for the Su-32/34 than Okhotnik couldn't dream of being a proper substitute. One of a few things a Su-62/64 could in all likelihood do better than a S-70 (or even the Su-57) is being a flying command post, being a major part of weaving sensors and anti-air and ground attack munitions, UAV's/UCAV's/UGV's in hybrid missions against peer/near-pear OPFOR.

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