Su-35 vs F-22/F-35

Isos wrote:

Indians rejected su57 because it didn’t live up to Russian claims. What does a random friendly fire incident have to do anything with that?

Thry never claimed that... it's people like you that spread this story.

Indians were never part of the program. They paid to have some access to it for their own version that was suposed to be developed by themselves. The issue was that India was expecting sukhoi to transfert all the 5th gen technologies developed for su-57 for the 6 billion they invested. Sukhoi told them to **** off.

And when you see they paid 8 billion for 36 Rafales they really went to **** themselves.

That’s not the whole truth. They weren’t happy with the stealth the radar and the engine. They wanted an f22sky and were underwhelmed as well not wanting to fund the production.

bitcointrader70 wrote:Lol? F35 has the latest radar and the latest EW suit

The Su-57's radar and EW are even more latest...

bitcointrader70 wrote:R27 is a garbage missile worst PK than the sparrow. That leaves r73 and r77.

You are judging the R-73, R-77 and newer versions of the R-27 based on the performance of older variants of the R-27, this is a ridiculous and not a fair comparison.

bitcointrader70 wrote:Su 35 has to know the f35 is there to be able to fire anything

And it will know where the F-35 is even before it can fire, as I showed earlier.

bitcointrader70 wrote:Russians have a bad habit of lying and over exaggerating everything. I know because I’m Russian

There is a bit of truth in the statement, as you, a Russian, have been lying exaggeratedly with every comment you make.

bitcointrader70 wrote:The Indians rejected su57 because they deemed it not good enough.

According to these same Indians, the Su-30 was able to beat the RAF EF-2000 by 12x0, and that the Mig-21 was able to shoot down an F-16 from Pakistan, do you believe that too?

bitcointrader70 wrote:Su35 does not have a 350km detection range. The radar settings have to be changed for a small vector scan and it’s a useless mode without awacs queuing it up.

You talk as if Russia didn't have AWACS and ground-based radars that could tell the Su-35, through the datalink, where to point that narrower field of view.

"the assured detection and acquisition of typical aerial targets at a range of up to 200 km (up to 170 km against ground background), and in a narrower field of view¬ – up to 350-400 km."
https://www.uacrussia.ru/en/aircraft/lineup/military/su-35/#design-features

200km of range is still better than the F-35's 160km...

Belisarius wrote:

bitcointrader70 wrote:Lol? F35 has the latest radar and the latest EW suit

You can not take this guy seriously - he is just trolling (badly).

Isos wrote:Indians were never part of the program. They paid to have some access to it for their own version that was suposed to be developed by themselves. The issue was that India was expecting sukhoi to transfert all the 5th gen technologies developed for su-57 for the 6 billion they invested. Sukhoi told them to **** off.

And when you see they paid 8 billion for 36 Rafales they really went to **** themselves.

This is a major flaw in Russia's marketing programme. Instead of catering to third world shitholes like India, Africa, Russia should market its products in Middle East, South America and Europe. That's where the top dollars are.

Su35 has absolutely zero chance against the f35.

Sukhoi’s own patent claims Su-57 having a design RCS between 0.1 and 1 m2.

Su-35s operate within an IADS network that can detect and track F-35s from enormous distances... the Su-35 pilot might never turn his nose mounted radar on.

That’s comparable to a clean Super Hornet and it shouldn’t be a surprise when Su-57 follows many of the same RCS-reduction measures such as using radar blockers to hide the engine face instead of an actual serpentine duct.

A clean SH is useless for air combat. Western claims of similar RCS for Rafales are equally amusing... especially with that stealthy fixed inflight refuelling probe.

It’s not just Su-57 being less stealthy than F-35 (-40 dBsm) – it has a 1,000 times bigger RCS. Since detection range is proportional to the 4th root of RCS, a 1,000 times bigger RCS equates to 5.6 times greater detection range. And this is after giving Su-57 every benefit of doubt, the F-35’s RCS is very likely closer to -50 dB.

And yet Israeli F-35s refuse to fly into Syrian airspace...

The F-35 will be enjoying almost 6 times greater detection range against Su-57. The difference is so huge that Su-57 will be hopelessly outclassed. We see this time and again in Red Flags and Northern Edge with F-35 having 28–1 kill ratio against modern 4th gen. aircraft backed by AWACS and SAMs. The enormous difference in detection range from Stealth is the primary factor for such a lopsided kill ratio.

Or the fact that previously the Russians had no stealth fighters so fighting stealth aircraft was never a requirement of US or western fighter aircraft/AWACS platforms and that they are optimised for murdering people in third world countries and are not really set up for second world opponents...

It doesn’t matter how capable radar or EW suite you have, they simply can’t compensate the enormous difference in detection range from a VLO airframe. You can have amazing performance at airshows but without Stealth you’re not gonna be in a fight against 5th gen. aircraft.

So why is the US stopping buying F-35s and putting F-15s back into production which I am sure will have a RCS of 0.001 when fully armed because US stealth is just so amazing.

And this is ignoring the infancy of Su-57 program and consistent delay in the production/IOC since last 4 years or the fact Su-57’s avionics suite is not remotely comparable to that of F-35.

Su-57 has multiple radar antenna including L band for hunting enemy stealth fighters. F-35s have more problems than they have working features...

The F-35 has a bigger and much more capable radar and orders of magnitude more powerful EW suite giving vastly superior Situational Awareness.

If it is stealthy why does it need any EW equipment?

Surely EW would just give away the planes location.

Where F-35’s DAS make it the only Fighter to fully operate in the IR spectrum, Su-57 can’t even use its forward-hemisphere IRST without further ruining its RCS. The IRST is turned backwards in Su-57 because its a sphere, the worst shape in terms of RCS that uniformly reflects in all direction.

The Mistral MANPADS has a faceted pointy nose for aerodynamic purposes... not good for IR performance however. Igla-1 and later missiles have a rounded IR sensor which is optimal and uses an aerospike for aerodynamic performance...

Su-57s IRST will likely be rather superior to the F-35 and F-22 neither of which really have a proper IRST.

Despite all the problems with Su-57 program including lack of existence or international interest, the fundamental design is so far behind F-35 in terms of both Stealth and Situational Awareness – two key aspects of a 5th gen. aircraft. The Su-57’s design is closer to that of modern 4th gen. than it is to either F-22 or F-35.

Is that why the US is putting 4th gen fighters back in to production and are now talking about 6th gen fighters?

10 years since first flight and there’s no indication of K-77M or K-74M anywhere close to being operational, forcing Su-57 to fly with R-77 & R-74 externally (as they won’t fit inside).

There is no value in releasing information about their weapons... suffice to say until the Su-57 was in service there would be no benefit for having these missiles in service or shown to the public.

Imagine the kind of articles you’d see if F-35 didn’t have an operational missile that could fit internally. The Su-57 gets away with all the shortcomings using propaganda and fantasies, the likes of non-existent L band radar.

It has a full range of air to air and air to ground weapons specially developed for it.... unlike the F-22 and F-35.

The SDB was developed because they fucked up and couldn't fit air to ground weapons in their F-22s of course, but does their AIM-9X sidewinder still needs to be extended from a weapon bay to get a lock on a target before launch?

How unstealthy is that?

The Su-57 is nowhere near F-35 for similar reasons as to why F-18 Super Hornets are nowhere near F-35. The gap in Stealth and ultimately Situational Awareness is just overwhelming.

The wing mounted L band AESA arrays on Su-57s and Su-35s and now upgraded Su-30s render F-35 and F-22 stealth ineffective to all their primary interceptors...

Doubt. F22 and f35 are essentially undefeated in exercises vs f15/f16/fa18/raphael/typhoon.

Are you sure, because your own figures....

We see this time and again in Red Flags and Northern Edge with F-35 having 28–1 kill ratio against modern 4th gen. aircraft backed by AWACS and SAMs.

Made worse by US think tank simulations with F-35s against Chinese Su-35s showing the Chinese would likely win the engagement...

America nuked them because it was convenient for them and no one could stop them.

They selected the two target cities because they had no military value and had not been bombed up until that point, and they bombed them for two reasons... one to show the Japanese they were prepared to kill anyone and everyone with no mercy, and two to show Stalin the same message and now we have nukes...

Having your future enemy realise you are a soulless bastard was the message... a message they repeat often because the talk about morals and human rights is just talk.

All of those responses with hypersonic missiles and zircons and Khinzals. Those are strategic weapons. By even bringing them into discussion you are acknowledging the inferiors of the Russian airforce to the Americans and their doctrine.

They are not even nearly strategic weapons.... Zircon has a range of 1,000km or thereabouts and Kinzhal about 2,000km and both have conventional warheads as standard... they are not even nearly strategic weapons.

Also this website severely underestimates how good amraam is. It’s active radar homing and has passive homing to counter jamming.

It has a combat performance of about 40% PK against unaware targets... which is amazing compared with Vietnam war era BVR missiles with about 6%, but not something that is relevant when talking about peer enemies...

And you are turning a blind eye to the advantages of using the UV sensor.

Another advantage is that all objects give off IR radiation.... all things have a temperature, but things like IR decoy flares give off IR radiation too but they also give off UV rays and will help differentiate between a hot object and an actively burning object... a jet engine compared with a flare decoy.

The f35 does as well, and it indeed excels in stealth. That said I would be wary of falling into the usual fanboi tropes and hubris. We dont know the full capabilities of either fighter. They are both incredible.

It is the attempt to achieve high levels of stealth that make the F-35 so expensive to buy and to operate... an advantage that is hard to quantify, and is only going to degrade over time as radar and IIR sensors improve.

Not just this many dont know that even older radars can be heavily upgraded with powerful computers and software updates.

Many older radar antennas lacked performance because they generated enormous amounts of data that could not be processed. To allow it to be processed a lot of the raw data was ditched before processing to make it easier... The first Zaslon radar in the MiG-31 was notorious for having weak computer processing power despite being an amazing PESA radar with excellent performance.

Does su35 have the ability to launch a missile at f35 with data from ground based radar without its own radar having a lock? I doubt it.

Using data from other platforms it could detect the target on its IRST and launch an IR guided R-27ET at the target... It would probably be able to use its L band AESA to get a precise location and then use the power of its nose mounted PESA to find the target and launch a missile.

That would be insane sensor fusion that even Americans couldn’t dream off in their 5th gen jets.

Their AWACS planes can lock on targets for S-400s to engage over the radar horizon from the launchers... in the 1990s when testing the R-37 missile a MiG-31M with an old radar received target data from an Su-30 operating much closer to the target and launched the missile which flew 300km to hit the target it never detected on its own radar...

If su35 jammers can defeat amraam that is definitely comforting but Americans are always working on the next thing. They are sneaky.

They certainly are, but the Russians are rather clever too and at the moment with their AMRAAMs and AIM-9X sidewinders not working properly it should come down to guns and I would put my money on the Russian plane in that case because the F-35 sounds like it is pretty ordinary in that regard.

Su35 dont need radar, IRST and r74 is enough, hel run down f35 at mach 2, and kill him without him knowing

It is an F-35... R-27T or R-27ET would be plenty.

They upgrade their old missiles all the time... so does the west... I mean ESSM is just a new build Sparrow missile from the Vietnam era... with modern digital components and new seekers it is fine for most tasks.

The R-27T and R-27ET had the same seeker as the R-73 but actually had a wider field of view because it is a larger missile. It lacked the amazing agility of the R-73 because it didn't have a thrust vectoring rocket motor, but those butterfly front wings allow it to turn sharp corners without bleeding off as much speed as a triangular wing shape because it acts like a forward swept wing and the span wise flow goes in to the wing root and over the wing surface creating lift instead of off the end of the triangular wing tip where it creates a vortex and extra drag...

Europeans are not bypassing stealth. Look at the prototypes of all their 6th gen fighter aircraft. They have been designed keeping stealth in mind.

Lots of prototypes and promises but not many actual aircraft.

Su-57 is stealthy but they will rely more on its ability to guide drones than anything else. Its stealth will worl great at long distances from where it will guide its drones on tatgets.

F-22 is just stealthy. F-35 is still full of mostakes in development.

For the Russian planes stealth is a feature... like camouflaged uniforms, but it is still a well armed and equipped fighting machine.

US stealth is a sniper in a Ghillie suit who is best equipped to fight from a distance, which is fine when the enemy are the Taliban, but against a near peer enemy it is a problem because Russia has invested in equipment to see camouflaged targets...

He can’t fire r74 without radar lock. IRST is not enough to launch with thermal.

Which just shows how much of an expert you are... or your sources are.

Tell me... what is the value of a high offboresight air to air missile if you have to point your radar at the target and scan and get a lock before you can launch.

Also what sort of radar are the Houthi using when they launch R-73s from the ground?

A little bit of news for you... since it entered service the R-73 along with the radar and IRST and helmet mounted cueing system has a range of different options for attacking targets.

One is to get a radar lock and get the missile to look at the locked on target and then launching the missile... but the IRST and the helmet mounted sight can also be used to direct the missiles seeker to lock the target... the helmet mounted sight means you can turn your head and put the blinking crosshair on the target for a system lock... once locked you can range it with the radar or laser to get precise range and you also have an IRST lock and a radar lock too but you don't have to turn the radar on.

A missile lock is all you need for a launch... and you can get that by scanning with the missile seeker... which can take a while because its field of view is very large, or you can point the missiles sensor at the target using the IRST or radar or Helmet mounted sight... and once the missile has a lock the missile can be launched.

Even if the radar and IRST are off you can still get a lock and launch the missile.

Problem with that is you are gambling on amraam not hitting anything. F35 will get to fire first.

Currently that already happens 60% of the time with aircraft that don't know they are under attack... and don't have EW even if they did.

Su-35s and Su-34s and Su-30s and Su-57s and MiG-35s do.

But I was talking about r77. It can’t launch r77 without radar lock.

You are wrong about that too. R-77 is an ARH missile, not a SARH missile... but even the SARH R-27ER does not need a target lock before launch.... it flys to the target area on autopilot and then as it approaches the target the launch aircraft illuminates the target and the missile homes in on the reflection. In fact an Su-35 could probably launch the missile to a point 20km to one side of the target and turn and fly towards the opposite side of the target and then when it turns and illuminates the F-35, the F-35s design is intended to redirect radar waves away from where they came from so it would scatter the radar in other directions except back at the launch aircraft... with a SARH missile fired out to one side it could probably get enough redirected radiation to get a lock.

Yes R77 is also avoidable, but this dance would continue

And also Su-35 can carry 14 missiles if it wants to... how many on F-35 if it is to be stealthy?

This is the problem I have with Russia not having a real stealth jet operational.

Amusing... If I was American I would be super pissed off that they have more than 600 F-35s and they still have fundamental problems and are still not fully operational despite being 5 times more expensive to buy and operate than these new Russian fighters.

Even worse the Su-57 is their F-22 and it is a fraction of the price of the F-35 and yet kicks its arse in terms of speed and range and payload... and not just that but they are using the design to fast track a light 5th gen stealth fighter that is cheaper to buy and operate than most modern Lead In Fighter Trainers....

F35s can pressure flankers the same way by continuing to launch amraams and getting closer for better shots. And even though su35 is better aerodynamically it’s bleeding speed and energy dodging missiles while f35 is cruising pretty.

F-35s can't even super cruise and have the aerodynamics of a brick.

They can't out turn F-16s or F-18s which means Su-27s and MiG-29s will probably beat them as well... let alone newer models with TVC engines.

R27 is a garbage missile worst PK than the sparrow.

Actually it had better numbers that Sparrow and probably would have allowed MiG-29 pilots to shoot down F-15s fairly easily... that is one reason why AMRAAM was fast tracked... the other being how good R-73 and HMS is.

BTW upgraded digital Sparrows are still the front line defence missile for the US Navy... try looking up what ESSM stands for.

Su 35 has to know the f35 is there to be able to fire anything

Has a rather big and very powerful radar in its nose and IRST and also wing mounted AESA array radar too optimised specifically for stealth targets.

Big hint.... on the ground the Russians have a big radar family called NEBO.

It includes several very large radar with very different antenna because each radar operates in a completely different frequency range.

These radars are not used separately, they are used together and their signals are combined and processed and they create target data vastly superior than any of the three radar could generate on their own in terms of anti stealth and anti drone capacity.

With wing mounted L band AESA radar and nose mounted Ku and Ka band PESA radar do you think they use the nose radar to not find stealth and wing mounted antenna for IFF purposes?

Or do you think they have computers combining not just their information but also information from the IRST, and the radars and systems of other aircraft and ground platforms?

Russians have a bad habit of lying and over exaggerating everything. I know because I’m Russian.

The Turks have no reason to lie and they say the S-400 is better than what the Russians promised. China seems pretty happy with its Su-35s too.

Kret has been caught doing it. The Indians rejected su57 because they deemed it not good enough.

The Indians rejected it because they wanted several massive changes and were told if they wanted them they would have to pay for them themselves.

One of the things was a two seater, and the other was much higher level of stealth, which would massively blow out the cost of purchase and operational costs for no enormous improvement in performance.

It was the mistake they made with the F-35... not stealthy enough to be safe but stealthy enough to be far to expensive to operate as your main fighter.

Any time russian equipment fails it’s blamed on it being an export model when the truth is Russia just makes inferior products.

Most of the time when Russian equipment fails it is because it is being operated by morons. Even rather old gear operated well can be effective enough... ask Serbia... as long as it is maintained.

The best hope flankers have against f35 is that it only has 4 amraams internally and if it wants aimx9 it’s stealth is severely degraded.

The best hope Flankers have is that every HATO country buys hundreds of F-35s and they end up making 20,000 of them.... the west will be bankrupted.

Jamming makes stealth more effective and stealth makes jamming more effective. This is basic stuff.

The first F-22s and F-117s had no jammers... newer stealth aircraft carry jammers...

You have to ask yourself if stealth is so great why is their primary jammer aircraft an F-18?

Surely it should be an F-22 or F-35...

F22 has only a better chance marginally to f35 because it can actually fly, and maneuvers, even then rafale trashed f22

The core problem for the US is the S-400s and S-350s it will have to deal with before it gets anywhere near a Russian plane.

It's impossible to compare missiles without getting a few dozen and doing your own tests. The same applies to American and Russian designs, so the dick-waving based on "real life" operational history is a pointless endeavor.

Depends on the target too of course... R-27s are plenty for shooting down cruise missiles and drones as well as all sorts of fighters in the current models with digital electronics and parts.

Same for the Sparrow in the form of the ESSM.

That’s not the whole truth. They weren’t happy with the stealth the radar and the engine. They wanted an f22sky and were underwhelmed as well not wanting to fund the production.

They did want better stealth and two seat version and when they found out they would need to fund both they decided to not invest in development and just wait till they were in serial production and buy some off the shelf and upgrade them then. Essentially what they did with the Su-30MKI. Make it much more expensive with some token western parts and domestic parts and then complain about how expensive it is despite being less than half the price they paid for Rafales.

They payed 6 billion for the vasic design.

Pretty sure they were expecting to pay 2 billion and were asked for 6 billion and ended up paying nothing at all.

At which point lots of westerners said the Su-57 is dead because Indian money was paying for the development and with that gone it will be cancelled...

As we can tell today of course...

This is a major flaw in Russia's marketing programme. Instead of catering to third world shitholes like India, Africa, Russia should market its products in Middle East, South America and Europe. That's where the top dollars are.

Rich countries generally owe their wealth to links to the west... links the west will cut if they buy Russian products.

Rich countries get rich because they never pay full price... poor countries can develop and grow from investment and trade and become rich and respect Russia because of that...

Russian says in past that avr RCS of Su57S from all aspects are 0.3m²...so he is stealthy enough...

Do you all remember how USA clamed in mid 90s that RCS of F22 is 0.1m2, then after we Serbs shot 3 F117, o e fall in Serbia, they change it to 0.01m², then again change it in 0.001 when Russians made S400,becaus they say that they can easly shot this target...now they have F35 with imposibile 0.00001m² so its small as bees or some small insects...

Do you all believe in this shit they came out?!

What they say about F-117 and probability of P-18/15 radar to see him and shot him down and still we saw him at 30+km away and track it till we shot him, lock it at ~10 and shot it at ~7km...radar P-15 can lock this plane at less then 7km because F117 have as yanks says lot of 0 after that . and still we shot it with S125 system NEVA from fking 60s...

Do you think this newer and more powerful radars on modern PVO systems or planes can detect this miracle from USA with all big and powerful surveillance radar Russia have it!?

galicije83 wrote:then after we Serbs shot 3 F117, o e fall in Serbia, they change it to 0.01m², then again change it in 0.001 when Russians made S400,becaus they say that they can easly shot this target...now they have F35 with imposibile 0.00001m² so its small as bees or some small insects...

You shot three but could produce only one. F 117s were flying through the same flight path. Zoltan Dani waited for the appropriate time and shot down just one of them.

The only other aircraft the Serbs shot down was an F-16.

Isos wrote:Indians were never part of the program. They paid to have some access to it for their own version that was suposed to be developed by themselves. The issue was that India was expecting sukhoi to transfert all the 5th gen technologies developed for su-57 for the 6 billion they invested. Sukhoi told them to **** off.

Being a habitual importer Indians had zero knowledge about stealth. So those assholes were actually a part of the program. They entered into the Su-57 project thinking the Russians will design a F-22 for them.

After having burnt their ass on the project Indians realized the Russians are not developing a fighter that is anywhere as stealthy as the F-22. Instead they were developing a far less stealthy platform with great maneuvering capabilities.

So they bailed out and started working on a home grown version of a stealth aircraft that will be powered by either a US or French engine.

RTN wrote:
You shot three but could produce only one. F 117s were flying through the same flight path. Zoltan Dani waited for the appropriate time and shot down just one of them.

The only other aircraft the Serbs shot down was an F-16.

They haven't shot down more F-117 because the USA forces shoot anti radiation missiles to the direction of the expected altitude radars during every mission.
The case of Dani was different, in that case no anti radiation/jammer plane was on scene, means they been able to keep the X band radar on longer than 20 seconds.


During Serbia the best part of the sortiex was SEAD, and even with that they haven't managed to kill ANY high altitude strategic SAM asset.

So, the F-117 vs Seribian SAMs was 0:1 : )

AND with all their high tech smart bombs their sortie rate for each target destroyed was huge! Many of the destroyed targets were actually decoys as well.

One thing they did pretty well was the bombing of civilians and the Chinese Embassy.

Well in latest Danis inteviews, he tells that our PVO shot one F117, hit 2 one land on Pleso airport Croatian it was crashlanding, and another land in Budapest Hungary. Also we hit between 45 and 60 planes, but yanks and rest of the aliance for now they do not want to admit that.

You will see it will be same as was against Iraq in 1991 when coalition lost more then 75 planes. This documents was published 25 years later....

Our PVO fires lot of AA missiles and we have more AA battalions, not just one 3rd who shot 117, 16 and hit B2...probably they hit more planes during war...

did this guy really reply to my argument saying ''nah man F35 got the latest stuff"?

Atmosphere wrote:did this guy really reply to my argument saying ''nah man F35 got the latest stuff"?

He is apparently Russian (I doubt it still but whatever,maybe liberal scum) who lives in the United States and doesn't have experience or knowledge in the field of this technology.

He will use the "I'm Russian so I know" mantra about it as if he has any inside knowledge or whatever. He doesn't. And he isn't very convincing in any of his arguments.

In the end, we are giving him ammo though by replying to him. There really isn't a need to.

[quote="RTN"]

galicije83 wrote:then after we Serbs shot 3 F117, o e fall in Serbia, they change it to 0.01m², then again change it in 0.001 when Russians made S400,becaus they say that they can easly shot this target...now they have F35 with imposibile 0.00001m² so its small as bees or some small insects...

You shot three but could produce only one. F 117s were flying through the same flight path. Zoltan Dani waited for the appropriate time and shot down just one of them.

The only other aircraft the Serbs shot down was an F-16.


Well the situation is a bit different: not Serbs ,but the battery of Zoltan Dani (both under its direct command or one of its crew shift) , single-handedly, downed one F-117, damaged another one beyond repair (that managed to execute an emergency landing April 30), downed an F-16 and two A-10s (one downed and another land crashed), all without suffering a single material or personel loss in spite literally half of the SEAD/DEAD forces, among involved NATO's ones, was tasked to discover and destroy this "SAM devil's battery"

As said several times the unique question anyone should ask to himself should be:" What allowed this single battery to achieve ,in a situation so desperately loopsided, a so high kill- ratio, representing effectively over the 90% of the NATO aircraft downed in comparison with all the remaining Serbian air defense batteries that instead failed to achieve significative results,except limiting the material and crew losses ?

The response is in the technical details concerning the measures aimed at reduce the losses by part of NATO Air Forces over Serbian skies: NATO aircraft losses during the Operation Allied Force was avoided not thanks to mythical effects produced by EW capabilities or "stealth" designs, if not marginally, what instead really reduced enormously the losses was :

- ALE-50 This towed decoy saved 10-12 B1 bombers and about 36 among F-15s and F-16s from almost assured downing (SAM diverted had radar lock on the aircraft and had surpassed kinematic evasive manoeuvres)
-Altitude limit of the SA-6 batteries
-Fixed nature of the SA-2 and SA-3 batteries, that had the altitude reach to engage NATO aircraft at any operative cruise altitude

I repost here a mine pasted comment on the same subject ( post 661 from PAK FA, T-50: News #1)

When, in 1991,USAF was sure to be capable to avoid completely the potential (...and reduced thanks to low-observability) area of detection of its F-117 by part of Iraqi air defense,thanks to pre-mission-computable flight's routes accounting for the well- known position of each enemy FIXED SA-2 and SA-3 batteries and the altitude limits of the mobile export SA-6 batteries , mandatorily employed F-117 Nighthawk's squadrons in STRICT SOLITARY missions just to preserve theirs security.

In Kosovo War the solitary initiative of the commander of a single battery of SA-3 represented the unexpected variable contributing to the departure from this well established CONOPs for stealth bombers.

The "home-made" modifications executed by this Serbian SAM battery's commander -Col. Zoltan Dani- ,a true passionate of its work ,that had procured for himself a rich, restricted technical literature about latest evolutions in SAM's design and theirs tactically employment in a modern environment, had rendered its export and largely downgraded battery of antediluvian SA-3 (that was ,anyhow, the unique SAM system in the theatre with the ceiling to engage NATO aircraft flying at medium-to-high altitude) a battery much more similar to a relatively modern SAM of its times, capable to:
- Travel off road at increased speed
- Shorten the deployment/un-deployment cycle to dozen of minutes instead of an hour
- Increase of several times the original 24 W/MHz jamming signal rejection of SNR-125 radar
- Increase range of detection and tracking of “low observable” targets (anyhow very far from the laughable metropolitan legends circulating on this subject)
- Reduce significantly time of reaction of the battery
- Increase fuse’s sensibility for better missile's Pk in near-misses detonations

Z. Dani’s battery so modified ( in spite of ,obviously, showing performances and operative parameters anyhow dozens of times inferior to true up-to-date SAM systems of the time and being capable to engage only a single target for battery) ,also thanks to the good proficiency of its crew , became quickly a true killer battery ,unique of its kind ,on the top list of the most “wanted” Serbian SAM batteries by part of NATO’s J-Stars and SEAD/DEAD groups.
It was capable to down one F-117 (and heavily damage another ), down an F-16 , damage two A-10s without suffering a single life or equipment loss in the entire Air-Missile NATO Campaign !

Among the effects that the achievements of this SINGLE well manned battery of a largely downgraded export version of an antediluvian SAM system ,modified with totally “home-made” measures to achieve a scarce surrogate of a part of the capabilities in possession of modern SAM systems of the time, was to FORCE NATO planners to commit escort EA-6B Prowler jamming aircraft F-16s (for HARM delivery ) and F-15s to provide air coverage from eventual enemy interceptors for this “high-observable” strike group.

So this isnt Serbian battery but Danis battery?..WTF who wrote this shit?!

For the LAST time for You all westerners or any other nation...THERE was NO modification on S-125 NEVA system...this isnt true for GOD sake and it is your propaganda. Dani admit that in his latest interviews and many time before that...this is just bullshit written in USA for lsot of this planes...

Do you know that they need almost 2 hours for deployment and undeployment instead of 2.5 hours as other battery need it..so yes they reduce time but not for god sake to dozen minutes but just to 2 hours instead to 2 hour and 30min...


Yugoslavian engineers of our VTI or military and technical institute modified S-125 Neva rocket in way that we can shot when plane come and when plane goes from zone of distruction (in two ways not just one as it was on original system). This was only modification on that system...

And also you do not know that 3rd battery whole war was in an ambush, because of that they do not have casualties and they was not hit in this war. That was plan of 250. rocket brigade if war start...

galicije83 wrote:
Do you know that they need almost 2 hours for deployment and undeployment instead of 2.5 hours as other battery need it..so yes they reduce time but not for god sake to dozen minutes but just to 2 hours instead to 2 hour and 30min...

SEAD, more like seethe. Pathetic. So the very best of NATO wild weasels could not even take down pretty much static targets - and that's with nobody contesting the air space or attacking their airbases

Nobody tell them even the strategic SAMs have setup and tear-down times of 5 minutes, or they'd shit themselves.

lyle6 wrote:

galicije83 wrote:
Do you know that they need almost 2 hours for deployment and undeployment instead of 2.5 hours as other battery need it..so yes they reduce time but not for god sake to dozen minutes but just to 2 hours instead to 2 hour and 30min...

SEAD, more like seethe. Pathetic. So the very best of NATO wild weasels could not even take down pretty much static targets - and that's with nobody contesting the air space or attacking their airbases

Nobody tell them even the strategic SAMs have setup and tear-down times of 5 minutes, or they'd shit themselves.

I mean they couldn’t find them because they spent majority of the time hiding. These SAMs were effectively suppressed and their inferiority showed. NATO bombed them with practically zero resistance. It showed that older Soviet SAMs were essentially useless in this conflict. The f117s that were hit were due to poor NATO mission planning and lack of EW support.

If s300/s400 will have to hide like this from NATO than they are failures.

bitcointrader70 wrote:
I mean they couldn’t find them because they spent majority of the time hiding. These SAMs were effectively suppressed and their inferiority showed. NATO bombed them with practically zero resistance. It showed that older Soviet SAMs were essentially useless  in this conflict. The f117s that were hit were due to poor NATO mission planning and lack of EW support.

Serbia's SAMs were shooting from day 1 until the end of the conflict - why lie?

bitcointrader70 wrote:
If s300/s400 will have to hide like this from NATO than they are failures.

As opposed to US stealth jets that wouldn't even dare come within LOS of Russian S-400?

bitcointrader70 wrote:

lyle6 wrote:

galicije83 wrote:
Do you know that they need almost 2 hours for deployment and undeployment instead of 2.5 hours as other battery need it..so yes they reduce time but not for god sake to dozen minutes but just to 2 hours instead to 2 hour and 30min...

SEAD, more like seethe. Pathetic. So the very best of NATO wild weasels could not even take down pretty much static targets - and that's with nobody contesting the air space or attacking their airbases

Nobody tell them even the strategic SAMs have setup and tear-down times of 5 minutes, or they'd shit themselves.

I mean they couldn’t find them because they spent majority of the time hiding. These SAMs were effectively suppressed and their inferiority showed. NATO bombed them with practically zero resistance. It showed that older Soviet SAMs were essentially useless  in this conflict. The f117s that were hit were due to poor NATO mission planning and lack of EW support.

If s300/s400 will have to hide like this from NATO than they are failures.

My request for you to explain how an APG-81 would cut through DRFM, In detail, Is still pending.
And so is how would it's LPI modes get past SPO150.

I also remind you that a failure to explain any of these will invalidate every argument you've made up until now.

You shot three but could produce only one. F 117s were flying through the same flight path. Zoltan Dani waited for the appropriate time and shot down just one of them.

That does not make any sense. Even if there was a rigid flight path and schedule, you still can't shoot down a plane with that information if you can't see the plane.... get a camera and sit somewhere on a bus route with a blind fold on and set your watch alarm to when the bus should be travelling down a street... when the alarm goes off take a photo... is there a bus in that image? And buses only travel in two dimensions... aircraft travel in three...

The idea that you know the schedule for the plane so you should be able to shoot it down is ridiculous.

Being a habitual importer Indians had zero knowledge about stealth. So those assholes were actually a part of the program. They entered into the Su-57 project thinking the Russians will design a F-22 for them.

The idea was that they were going to take a Russian design and make some India specific changes to it and then put it into production... much like they did with the Su-30MKI... they put Indian and western kit into it and then assembled it in India.

After having burnt their ass on the project Indians realized the Russians are not developing a fighter that is anywhere as stealthy as the F-22. Instead they were developing a far less stealthy platform with great maneuvering capabilities.

The F-22 is not very stealthy either.... certainly not enough for it to be a problem for the Russian IADS.... the only really stealthy aircraft they have is the B-2 and they train to penetrate Russian airspace at low altitude... why would they do that if Russian radars can't see them?

So they bailed out and started working on a home grown version of a stealth aircraft that will be powered by either a US or French engine.

The French don't have an engine in that thrust range do they? They would be better off with Al-41s and upgrading their Su-30MKIs to that engine too if they don't already use it.

India is most likely to just wait and in a few years buy Su-57s from Russia as a finished product.

bitcointrader70 wrote:
I mean they couldn’t find them because they spent majority of the time hiding. These SAMs were effectively suppressed and their inferiority showed. NATO bombed them with practically zero resistance. It showed that older Soviet SAMs were essentially useless  in this conflict. The f117s that were hit were due to poor NATO mission planning and lack of EW support.

If s300/s400 will have to hide like this from NATO than they are failures.

They are not hiding, they were in ambush...wait for right moment to attack enemy.. its different...we fired 163 AA missiles from S125 Neva (93 at 50 targets) and 2k12 Kub (70 missiles at 46 targets). How many hits Yanks and rest of the OTAN knows batter then we are, but they do not want to tell us, for now

This system was great in time were the was made and it was 60s and 70s. Lot of change in warfare during 20+ years. If we have BUK system and S300 OTAN will never attack us, off course we need planes to, but this system will be real treat to them and they will have lot of more shot down planes and possible they will lost some piltos to...Its stupid to compare S300 range with range of S125 and 2k12 system..hell if we have BUK missile system we will probably shoot down more planes, because it is hell of the system with 2 times range then system we have...

galicije83 wrote:So this isnt Serbian battery but Danis battery?..WTF who wrote this shit?!

For the LAST time for You all westerners or any other nation...THERE was NO modification on S-125 NEVA system...this isnt true for GOD sake and it is your propaganda. Dani admit that in his latest interviews and many time before that...this is just bullshit written in USA for lsot of this planes...

Do you know that they need almost 2 hours for deployment and undeployment instead of 2.5 hours as other battery need it..so yes they reduce time but not for god sake to dozen minutes but just to 2 hours instead to 2 hour and 30min...


Yugoslavian engineers of our VTI or military and technical institute modified S-125 Neva rocket in way that we can shot when plane come and when plane goes from zone of distruction (in two ways not just one as it was on original system). This was only modification on that system...

And also you do not know that 3rd battery whole war was in an ambush, because of that they do not have casualties and they was not hit in this war. That was plan of 250. rocket brigade if war start...

Obviously it was a Serbian air defense battery, what an assertion.....

It not suffered casualities because it was in "ambush"?

Practically any AD battery, and even more all Serbian SAM batteries during Operation Allied Forces, shift cyclically from active to ambush stance ,but while any other failed to achieve any downing, suffering at least some material or man losses, this single battery caused instead single-handedly practiclaly the entire losses suffered by NATO in this operation.

In the Federation the Operation Allied Forces has been examined in the most minuscle details and not obviously by public declarations (including those of Dani that correctly continue to adhere to Serbian brothers OPSEC) but by extensive and strictly technical examination of all the factors involved in the clash between NATO combined Forces and Serbian Air Defenses Forces ,up to direct test of a recollected ALE-50 against domestic products that shown the absolute inefficiency of this measure against domestic SAMs of the times.

Precise data about times of transition from march to deployment of different SAMs and the inverse, theirs response times to different air targets, missile's fuse sensitivity, jam rejection thresholds, on road and off road performances and average response times of NATO Air Forces SIGINT elements to decoy emitters and actual radar pinging, metrics about theirs communication channels , average time to arrival at delivery point of different ammunitions after data dissemination, kinematic parameters of different aircraft in evasive maneuvring or attempt egression from a SAM engagement footprint......all was crossed to produce a model harmonized with data of domestic IAD of the time.

The result was that even discounting effect of the Air Forces, EW forces and long range attacks to theirs air bases an operation like Allied Forces would have failed totally and likely conducted to the complete paralysis of the NATO air operations within the first 48 hours cause unbearable crippling aircraft losses.

Z. Dani simply rendered its battery more similar to a relatively modern SAM of the Federation of its times through 19 distinctive modifications to different components of its battery (some minors others more substantial and ingenous).

Mindstorm wrote:

Z. Dani simply rendered its battery more similar to a relatively modern SAM of the Federation of its times through 19 distinctive modifications to different components of its battery (some minors others more substantial and ingenous).    

Yes, he and his crew rendered its battery more similar to a relatively modern SAM system, but he adn they do not modified nothing as i say..only modification was made by VTI was on missiles...

Yes they made some good anti harm systems to neutralized HARM missile similar to the decoy on planes, they made fake radar radiation imitator 1km away from its main radar, and when used real radar to scan airspace and when they turn it off, this fake radar continue to work as main and if NAT launch HARM he will hit this fake radar, not real one. But that was all..off course he was hell of officer, but he also have a good officers under him, and they all work as team, and they all know how IRAQI went trough against USA in 1991 with same systems when they iluminate to much from their main radars..

Rest you can read about him and rest of 3rd battery of 250. AA brigade are FALSE and made by USA propaganda after the war...