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    Su-35 vs F-22/F-35

    Arkanghelsk
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    Su-35 vs F-22/F-35 - Page 11 Empty Re: Su-35 vs F-22/F-35

    Post  Arkanghelsk Tue Feb 01, 2022 1:31 am

    bitcointrader70 wrote:
    Podlodka77 wrote:I called him a bull, because he is a bull. He attacked the F-35 plane as if it were a red scarf..
    POLITICS; Every story in the West starts with "we are superior". Then they make sure to add that Russians live in severe anarchy, are poorly educated, have a problem of national minorities, criminals + bears and vodka.
    Imagine a situation where the NATO pact is in Ukraine and Finland and where Russia is ahead of it. It is clear what would happen, they would be accused again of putting pressure on Armenia, Kazakhstan, but this time they would also mention national minorities in Russia. The policy of sanctions is not directed against Putin and the Russian authorities, as they like to say in the West, but is directed against the Russian people. Of course, through sanctions, the West wants to turn the Russian people against their own government, as they did against other countries that have been under long-term sanctions.

    "SUPERIORITY"; And the story of the F-35 is American nonsense, because in the past 30+ years, the Americans first fired cruise missiles at every opponent (cruisers, destroyers, LA-class submarines, strategic bombers), and only after that will be included the USAF and aircraft carriers. That is why every pro-NATO fanatic is bothered when next is mentioned; Russian hypersonic and supersonic anti-ship missiles, air defense systems, EW systems, GLONASS global surveillance, Tu-160 and MiG-31, nuclear weapons. and WHY is that so ?
    Because no opponent of the United States or the NATO pact had the above-mentioned systems, so the worn-out story of how NATO planes are superior is always included. People in the West are silk and have become accustomed to a fairly comfortable life, so I doubt very much that they are ready to lose all that in the conflict with Russia.
    When the West writes about the US army, it is like writing about Sparta, although the fact is that the US did not defeat Japan with honor. Yes, they destroyed their navy and air force, but they did not get Japan on land. And then, with a disgusting decision, they dropped two atomic bombs because they had NO army or readiness to bear the huge number of American soldiers killed, which would have been inevitable if they had decided to invade Japan.
    The Russians set out on the path of RECIPROCITY. Yes, it is cheaper to make dozens or hundreds of Kinzhal and Zircon missiles than to produce hundreds and hundreds of new fighter jets.
    A pro-Western journalist told a military analyst the following in a TV show in Serbia; "Are you saying the West hates Russia?" The analyst calmly said the following to the journalist; "Yes, that's all they can and have been doing for centuries - to hate Russia and nothing else."

    I’m sorry they bombed your country. But you are kind of a goodball. The Americans don’t use sanctions or fire barrages of cruise missiles because their military is weaker. They do this because they fight with every single advantage. Even if it’s 100% confirmed that the f35 can slaughter every single flanker and felon jet Russia has Americans would still do sanctions and fire missiles first to weaken their opponent. You completely misunderstand their tactics and their strategy. They fight to win in these kind of wars.

    Morals have very little to with it as well. They nuked Japan because fighting a ground war against religious fanatics was pointless and a waste of time. Also the Japanese weren’t saints. All of the dirty shit they did to POWs and raping all those Korean and Chinese women. Don’t get me started. Morals are irrelevant. America nuked them because it was convenient for them and no one could stop them.


    Their BVR and air superiority tactics are well proven. Especially when the Israelis put a bunch of Soviet instructor pilots in the dirt during the Arab wars with Egypt.

    All of those responses with hypersonic missiles and zircons and Khinzals. Those are strategic weapons. By even bringing them into discussion you are acknowledging the inferiors of the Russian airforce to the Americans and their doctrine.

    Their f35 was kept out by s400 in turkey and is more of a submarine anyway

    It wouldnt last against Su35 in IADS

    F22 even less

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    Su-35 vs F-22/F-35 - Page 11 Empty Re: Su-35 vs F-22/F-35

    Post  bitcointrader70 Tue Feb 01, 2022 2:08 am

    “Sultan” wannabe Erdogan is trying to create his own empire. American f35s come with too many restrictions and babying.

    Them choosing s400 over f35 had nothing to do with performance. It was all about his politics. Also s400 vs f35 is a different argument than su35/su57 vs f35 as opposed to f35 vs s400.

    Also this website severely underestimates how good amraam is. It’s active radar homing and has passive homing to counter jamming.


    Amramm D is not an old missile. And when Americans get aim260 online it will be an even worse situation for Russia unfortunately.

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    Su-35 vs F-22/F-35 - Page 11 Empty Re: Su-35 vs F-22/F-35

    Post  Belisarius Tue Feb 01, 2022 2:17 am

    You're just repeating Abhirup Sengupta's nonsense.

    bitcointrader70 wrote:Su35 has absolutely zero chance against the f35.

    The Su-35 can detect the F-35 before it enters the NEZ of the AIM-120D, which has an active X-band radar terminal seeker using a solid-state transmitter and a built-in radio frequency processor. The only wavelengths that the AMRAAM operates on is the 8-10 GHz X-band frequency range, which is easy to be blocked by the DRFM-capable Sorbitsya Russian ECM systems and the new KNIRTI Khibiny blocking pods carried by the variants. from Flanker.
    The KNIRTI L175M Khibiny M jamming system uses multiple techniques, including DRFM and spot-jamming, to which AMRAAM is particularly susceptible.
    DRFM (Digital Radio Frequency Memory) blocking or replay blocking is a replay technique that manipulates incoming radar energy and retransmits it to change the echo that the radar sees. This technique can change the range the radar detects by changing the delay in transmitting pulses, the speed the radar detects, changing the doppler shift of the transmitted signal or the angle to the plane using AM techniques to transmit on the radar side lobes.
    The AIM-120B/C/D's home-on-jam (HOJ) feature works when the missile's receiver detects signals that did not come from its transmitter, and locks onto the source transmitting them.
    But the HOJ feature doesn't work against DRFM.
    The DRFM used in KNIRTI is more advanced; DRFM digitizes the received signal and stores a coherent copy in digital memory. When necessary, the signal is replicated and retransmitted. Being a coherent representation of the original signal, the transmitting radar will not be able to distinguish it from other legitimate signals it receives and processes as targets.
    As the signal is stored in memory, it can be used to create false targets behind (reactive blocking) and in front (predictive blocking) of the target intended for protection. KNIRTI goes a step further, generating signals that indicate a false distance and location for passive guidance on the HOJ.
    Spot jamming occurs when a jammer focuses all of its energy on a single frequency. While this severely reduces the ability to track the jammed frequency, a frequency agility radar would hardly be affected because the jammer can only jam one frequency at a time. However, the AIM-120D can only operate in the X-band frequency range.
    The KNIRTI L175M jammer is said to be an effective ECM against more advanced AESA radars, so it can easily confuse the AMRAAM's radar detection head.
    Russia also produces other ECM systems, one of which is the SAP 518, used in the Su-30 and Su-34. SAP 518 is DRFM class too and is produced by KNIRTI (Kaluga Research Radio Engineering Institute).
    The manufacturer says it operates in the 2-18 GHz range and is also made to jam radar-guided air-to-air missiles like the AIM-120.
    Your idea that the Su-35 has absolutely zero chance against the F-35 is just bullshit.

    bitcointrader70 wrote:The technical result, the achievement of which the invention is directed, is to reduce the magnitude of the aircraft radar visibility to an average value of the order of 0.1 – 1 m 2 .

    "Russian designers say that while 4 generation fighters using almost 5 generation technology showed up on radar as objects the size of a football(~0,038m2), the T-50 shows up on radar as a object the size of a tennis ball(0,0033m2)..."
    https://youtu.be/KvyAbM67yKI

    Well, you see the video, read the patent and maybe you're wondering "why do they have such different RCS values?", well the reason is simple, any aircraft doesn't have one RCS value, the RCS varies with a lot of parameters such as the direction the radar is pointing at the aircraft, just as radars operating in different bands can get different RCS values ​​against the same aircraft.
    The Su-57 having an RCS of 0.1-1m2 from unspecified angles and frequencies will not prevent him from getting lower RCS values ​​in other circumstances.

    bitcointrader70 wrote:That’s comparable to a clean Super Hornet and it shouldn’t be a surprise when Su-57 follows many of the same RCS-reduction measures such as using radar blockers to hide the engine face instead of an actual serpentine duct.

    Radar blockers were used on the F-117 and X-32, and that never stopped them from being considered stealthy and unless these RCS values ​​were obtained at the same aspect angle, frequency and polarization, which I doubt, this is a silly comparison.
    The main solution to reduce radar visibility is internal carriage of weapons.The shape of the airframe must be selected to reduce the number of directions in which electro-magnetic waves are reflected, and to ensure these directions are the safest. SU-57 has canted and mostly serrated surfaces to redirect radar energy. It’s smoother and more streamlined with less discontinuities. The F-18, with the exception of the v-tails, and intakes has no other canted surfaces, there are no trapezoid style shaping in the wings or bays and its full of discontent.
    The NO36 radar arrays are deflected from the vertical plane, thus deflecting the enemy radar’s radiation aside. The domes of the arrays are selective, they let their own signal pass through and block other frequencies. In addition, the compartments for these arrays feature RAM coatings on their edges to absorb ‘freak waves’ (which occur when a wave is amplified after multiple reflections within an enclosed space).
    It is impossible for an F-18 to ever match the RCS of the SU-57.

    bitcointrader70 wrote:It’s not just Su-57 being less stealthy than F-35 (-40 dBsm) – it has a 1,000 times bigger RCS. Since detection range is proportional to the 4th root of RCS, a 1,000 times bigger RCS equates to 5.6 times greater detection range. And this is after giving Su-57 every benefit of doubt, the F-35’s RCS is very likely closer to -50 dB.

    Having an RCS of -40 dBsm at a narrow angle is useless:
    https://basicsaboutaerodynamicsandavionics.files.wordpress.com/2016/03/f_35_metal_rcs.png?w=768

    The slightest change in the position of the radar relative to the aircraft would change the RCS tens or even hundreds of times.
    The average RCS is much larger:
    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FDhFxjtVUAoCDvs?format=jpg&name=large

    bitcointrader70 wrote:The F-35 has a bigger and much more capable radar and orders of magnitude more powerful EW suite giving vastly superior Situational Awareness.

    The Su-35's radar has a range against air targets of up to 350km and a sector of vision in azimuth is ± 120°.
    In comparison, the APG-81 has a range of up to 160km and an azimuth vision sector of ±60°. And this gap will certainly be even bigger when compared to the Su-57's radar.
    and in terms of EW there is nothing the F-35 does that the flankers already do with their electronic warfare pods.

    bitcointrader70 wrote:
    Where F-35’s DAS make it the only Fighter to fully operate in the IR spectrum


    About the Su-35:
    "the I-222 optoelectronic reconnaissance system developed by NPK SPP provides detection of air targets by INFRARED radiation with selection of missiles attacking the aircraft, as well as aircraft laser irradiation detection..."
    https://www.sukhoi.org/products/samolety/256/

    bitcointrader70 wrote:while turning a blind eye to the fact Su-57 use a UV based Missile Warning System – making Su-57 significantly vulnerable to BVR missiles.


    And you are turning a blind eye to the advantages of using the UV sensor.
    The MAWS sensors that operate in the ultraviolet spectrum (from 0.2 to 0.5 microns) are used to detect the emissions from the burning of the engine jets, taking advantage of the fact that the ozone layer filters the ultraviolet energy from the sun. This means that few natural sources could give false alerts like welders, halogen lamps, fires and sparks. The ultraviolet spectrum also penetrates battlefield smoke, contributing to its efficient use in detecting missile launches.
    Another advantage is that they are small and do not need refrigeration.

    bitcointrader70 wrote:forcing Su-57 to fly with R-77, R-74 externally (as they won’t fit inside).

    doesn't fit inside?!
    The Su-57 has two tandem main internal weapon bays each approximately 4.4 m (14.4 ft) long and 0.9 m (3.0 ft) wide, the R-77 has a length of 3.6m, a diameter of 200mm and a wingspan of 350mm, the Su-57 can carry a minimum of 4 R-77s internally.

    bitcointrader70 wrote:
    of non-existent L band radar.

    Unfortunately for you it exists, and it will give the Su-57 capabilities that F-35 pilots can't even dream of.
    Search, track and missile midcourse guidance against low signature aircraft.
    Identification Friend Foe / Secondary Surveillance Radar.
    Passive angle tracking and geolocation of JTIDS/MIDS/Link-16 emitters at long ranges.
    Passive angle tracking and geolocation of L-band AEW&C/AWACS and surface based search radars at long ranges.
    Passive angle tracking and geolocation of hostile (i.e. Western) IFF and SSR transponders at long ranges.
    High power active jamming of JTIDS/MIDS/Link-16 emitters.
    High power active jamming of satellite navigation receivers over large areas.
    High power active jamming of L-band AEW&C/AWACS and surface based search radars at long ranges.
    High power active jamming of guided munition command datalinks over large areas.
    http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-2009-06.html

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    Su-35 vs F-22/F-35 - Page 11 Empty Re: Su-35 vs F-22/F-35

    Post  TMA1 Tue Feb 01, 2022 2:21 am

    Nah I'm not buying the National Intetest tier arguments. For example the su57 the dircm turrets scan in the near and mid IR range and the UV detection sensors are just part of a multispectral suite. The primary 4adar is a gallium arsenide based AESA with 11 kilowatt max transmit output. It is very good. The software is very good. It also uses cheek arrays and gallium nitride based L band radar arrays.

    The fighter has many tricks up its sleeve. The f35 does as well, and it indeed excels in stealth. That said I would be wary of falling into the usual fanboi tropes and hubris. We dont know the full capabilities of either fighter. They are both incredible.

    This same nonsense happens with the su35. I remember hearing stuff like the SAR resolution for the irbis e was beyond three meters squared. This was used as proof that it was "80s tech". Come to find out the irbis e s
    SAR resolution is under one meter squared. What many people dont know is that the irbis e is not at all obsolete and is a hybrid PESA with totally up to date software. Not just this many dont know that even older radars can be heavily upgraded with powerful computers and software updates.

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    Arkanghelsk
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    Su-35 vs F-22/F-35 - Page 11 Empty Re: Su-35 vs F-22/F-35

    Post  Arkanghelsk Tue Feb 01, 2022 2:30 am

    bitcointrader70 wrote:“Sultan” wannabe Erdogan is trying to create his own empire. American f35s come with too many restrictions and babying.

    Them choosing s400 over f35 had nothing to do with performance. It was all about his politics. Also s400 vs f35 is a different argument than su35/su57 vs f35 as opposed to f35 vs s400.

    Also this website severely underestimates how good amraam is. It’s active radar homing and has passive homing to counter jamming.


    Amramm D is not an old missile. And when Americans get aim260 online it will be an even worse situation for Russia unfortunately.


    Has nothing to do with politics but performance

    Erdogan was almost hit by AMRAAM Aim 120, so he put up s400 to block the skies from it

    Combined with Su35 it's obvious why Turkey simply declined the f35

    It's not going to protect you , Turkey as the 2nd strongest army of NATO showed what is qualitatively a necessity for its airforce

    And the Su35 and S400 work together, like the f18 and E2 , or f15 and e3

    It's obvious why Israel prefers F15 and F16, because those aircrafts at least allow Israel to carry munitions with some minimum performance. 

    They would not dare to use f35 in Syria,  and that sums up why the F35 is at best a non stealthy submarine 

    USAF copies Su35 and Su30sm2 superior aircraft with the F15SM and F16SM, they also could not master super maneuverability,  with 2d vectoring as opposed to 3d 

    Where Su35 can absolutely destroy any aircraft within IADS , with data linking from NEBO M and Yenisei

    It's a done deal, the f35 is better in the ocean

    AMRAAM is a bad missile like AIM9X, Syrian flares can dodge aim9x , and AMRAAM was fired by Pakistanis f16 within NEZ, and Su30 brushed it off with the 3D vectoring superiority

    Remember AMRAAM at even 60km is terrible demonstrated by Pakistan

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    Post  bitcointrader70 Tue Feb 01, 2022 3:17 am

    Does su35 have the ability to launch a missile at f35 with data from ground based radar without its own radar having a lock? I doubt it. That would be insane sensor fusion that even Americans couldn’t dream off in their 5th gen jets. Because nebo M uses multiple wavelengths that’s wouldn’t be comparable with r77/74 like S band L band UHF and VHF. It would give the su35 good situational awareness however.

    If su35 jammers can defeat amraam that is definitely comforting but Americans are always working on the next thing. They are sneaky.
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    Post  TMA1 Tue Feb 01, 2022 4:25 am

    bitcointrader70 wrote:Does su35 have the ability to launch a missile at f35 with data from ground based radar without its own radar having a lock? I doubt it. That would be insane sensor fusion that even Americans couldn’t dream off in their 5th gen jets. Because nebo M uses multiple wavelengths that’s wouldn’t be comparable with r77/74 like S band L band UHF and VHF. It would give the su35 good situational awareness however.

    If su35 jammers can defeat amraam that is definitely comforting but Americans are always working on the next thing. They are sneaky.

    I have heard the su 35 is connected with s400 systems. Not sure of this tho

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    Post  Arkanghelsk Tue Feb 01, 2022 4:49 am

    Su35 dont need radar, IRST and r74 is enough, hel run down f35 at mach 2, and kill him without him knowing

    All he need is s400 datalink
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    Post  RTN Tue Feb 01, 2022 9:10 am

    Isos wrote:China and Russia are into hypersonic and drones. Stealth is barely developed. Europeans are also bypassing massive investements in stealth and focus and datalinked stuff.
    Europeans are not bypassing stealth. Look at the prototypes of all their 6th gen fighter aircraft. They have been designed keeping stealth in mind.
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    Post  Isos Tue Feb 01, 2022 9:20 am

    RTN wrote:
    Isos wrote:China and Russia are into hypersonic and drones. Stealth is barely developed. Europeans are also bypassing massive investements in stealth and focus and datalinked stuff.
    Europeans are not bypassing stealth. Look at the prototypes of all their 6th gen fighter aircraft. They have been designed keeping stealth in mind.

    Yes but stealth isn't the caracteristic on which they will invest the more. It is the network capability with all other plateforms, datalinks and drones...

    Su-57 is stealthy but they will rely more on its ability to guide drones than anything else. Its stealth will worl great at long distances from where it will guide its drones on tatgets.

    F-22 is just stealthy. F-35 is still full of mostakes in development.

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    Post  RTN Tue Feb 01, 2022 2:02 pm

    Isos wrote: It is the network capability with all other plateforms, datalinks and drones...
    European data link and drone technology is half a generation behind the U.S. So they are trying to catch up. In stealth they never had any proficiency.

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    Post  Isos Tue Feb 01, 2022 3:09 pm

    RTN wrote:
    Isos wrote: It is the network capability with all other plateforms, datalinks and drones...
    European data link and drone technology is half a generation behind the U.S. So they are trying to catch up. In stealth they never had any proficiency.

    They are investing in the first two. Not in stealth.

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    Post  bitcointrader70 Tue Feb 01, 2022 3:49 pm

    Arkanghelsk wrote:Su35 dont need radar, IRST and r74 is enough, hel run down f35 at mach 2, and kill him without him knowing

    All he need is s400 datalink
    He can’t fire r74 without radar lock. IRST is not enough to launch with thermal.
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    Post  Sujoy Tue Feb 01, 2022 3:55 pm

    Isos wrote:Yes but stealth isn't the caracteristic on which they will invest the more. It is the network capability with all other plateforms, datalinks and drones...
    Stealth isn't all that important. Gripen can detect and target lock on stealth when they network the IR and radar of two Gripens. Previous versions of Gripens could not create two way data link of IR sensors but the E variant can.
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    Post  Arkanghelsk Tue Feb 01, 2022 4:36 pm

    Su-35 vs F-22/F-35 - Page 11 10926410
    Su-35 vs F-22/F-35 - Page 11 10926411
    Su-35 vs F-22/F-35 - Page 11 10926412


    Look at the amount of rust on F35! The submarine is not configured for Ocean condition, it also says alot of the supposed RCS values we are given

    SU35 IRST networked with NEBO will take the POS aircraft any day any time

    Better F15SM , but without 3d vectoring, and good IADS, there will be no penetration of VKS airspace

    OLS 30/35 require no radar lock for R73 or R74, these are IR guided missiles cued by IRST with own seekers, and locking onto the bright signature coming from F35 flaming engine , it wont be able to outrun SU35, in fact even Su35 gun would be enough

    That's why f35 will stay out of NEBO M coverage and in that case it's useless to even fire long range ARM missiles

    If it stays the distance Su57 will come in and kill him

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    Post  Belisarius Tue Feb 01, 2022 4:53 pm

    bitcointrader70 wrote: He can’t fire r74 without radar lock.

    WVR IR guided missiles use a passive sensor to detect, track and lock infrared radiation, they don't need radar lock to be able to be fired.

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    Post  bitcointrader70 Tue Feb 01, 2022 5:14 pm

    Problem with that is you are gambling on amraam not hitting anything. F35 will get to fire first.

    But I was talking about r77. It can’t launch r77 without radar lock.
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    Post  AlfaT8 Tue Feb 01, 2022 5:48 pm

    Your all wrong.
    The S-400 will be firing first. ;-)

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    Post  Arkanghelsk Tue Feb 01, 2022 6:20 pm

    bitcointrader70 wrote:Problem with that is you are gambling on amraam not hitting anything. F35 will get to fire first.

    But I was talking about r77. It can’t launch r77 without radar lock.

    Amraam was fired at Su30 by PAF at 70km range

    All missiles were detected and spoofed or evaded

    MIG21 was downed because abindahan went fu throttle, supposedly he got f16

    What we know, is that Amraam is ineffective in massed aerial battle
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    Post  Isos Tue Feb 01, 2022 6:21 pm

    bitcointrader70 wrote:Problem with that is you are gambling on amraam not hitting anything. F35 will get to fire first.

    But I was talking about r77. It can’t launch r77 without radar lock.

    It can carry only 4 amraam in the bays. Carry them outside and it becomes less stealthy.

    With jammers and evasive manouevres you can easily escape from those amraams in a su-35.

    Against a su-57 it would be as hard as hitting a f-22 with a r-77. Pretty useless.

    Those missiles aren't magic, real Pk is very low even against 4th gen fighters, that's why russians have long range IR r-27ET still in service. They will also very likely deploy r-77M with IR guidance. R-77 also should have had such version but they stoped developements because of the 90s crisis.

    Such missiles will have datalink and will use data from Nebo radars... making it a deadly long range anti stealth weapon.

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    Su-35 vs F-22/F-35 - Page 11 Empty Re: Su-35 vs F-22/F-35

    Post  Arkanghelsk Tue Feb 01, 2022 6:34 pm

    If we use Bakalot and retaliation of PAF of example,

    Everything becomes clear

    In BVR su30 dodged AIM 120C5 which was fired at 70km and had excellent kinematic launch

    However Su30 defeated Amraam kinematically and was out of reach before NEZ

    In reality due to Indian choices, they did not have RVV SD , they only just bought R77, which would have allowed Su30 to fire back at F16, and dodge, and would have forced F16 to dodge as well,

    Yes R77 is also avoidable, but this dance would continue

    Su30 with superior fuel and speed could sustain the fight longer, once Enemy is out of Amraam, he will close and engage at full afterburner and it becomes dogfight

    Indians have R77 now for SU30 but went with meteor for rafale and mirage

    Hopefully this does not affect their s400 datalinks, but su30 can always take advantage of their radars
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    Post  Isos Tue Feb 01, 2022 7:59 pm

    If the f-16 fired at 70km then they could have used RVV-AE at its limits (80km) but that would have still had a chance to hit or at least to make the f-16 go defensive allowing the su-30 to go on him and get closer for another missile launch and keep getting closer and keep launching missiles.

    But what you forget is that it was 2 su-30 vs 12 or more f-16. Su-30 kept a safe distance which is understandable. It's not some stupid US exercice where you can go 1 vs 10 and hope to win. Real war, real tactics. If the enemy outnumbers you with decent jets you keep safe above friendly SAMs and monitor the enemy, even if you have a su-57 or a f-22.

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    Su-35 vs F-22/F-35 - Page 11 Empty Re: Su-35 vs F-22/F-35

    Post  bitcointrader70 Tue Feb 01, 2022 8:04 pm

    Isos wrote:If the f-16 fired at 70km then they could have used RVV-AE at its limits (80km) but that would have still had a chance to hit or at least to make the f-16 go defensive allowing the su-30 to go on him and get closer for another missile launch and keep getting closer and keep launching missiles.

    But what you forget is that it was 2 su-30 vs 12 or more f-16. Su-30 kept a safe distance which is understandable. It's not some stupid US exercice where you can go 1 vs 10 and hope to win. Real war, real tactics. If the enemy outnumbers you with decent jets you keep safe above friendly SAMs and monitor the enemy, even if you have a su-57 or a f-22.

    This is the problem I have with Russia not having a real stealth jet operational. F35s can pressure flankers the same way by continuing to launch amraams and getting closer for better shots. And even though su35 is better aerodynamically it’s bleeding speed and energy dodging missiles while f35 is cruising pretty.
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    Su-35 vs F-22/F-35 - Page 11 Empty Re: Su-35 vs F-22/F-35

    Post  Atmosphere Tue Feb 01, 2022 8:10 pm

    bitcointrader70 wrote:Problem with that is you are gambling on amraam not hitting anything. F35 will get to fire first.

    But I was talking about r77. It can’t launch r77 without radar lock.

    >F35 will get to fire first.
    Wrong. For that to ever happen, APG-81 needs to get past khibiny and provide a solid lock, if you have evidence of the APG81's ECCM specifically going through khibiny, you can demonstrate that.
    Furthermore, this ''theory'' ignores the fact the probability of pastel passively seeing the APG-81. And no, just like radars have software to mask their emissions, ESM systems do as well. Therefore you would provide exact evidence that it will gest past SPO-150-35. Or the claim is bogus.

    >It can’t launch r77 without radar lock.
    Wrong, R-77-1 has a Passive-Active seeker. There are eight passive nodes in it that silently lock at any emitting thing at up to 200km. And mid course guidance info can be provided by many sources to begin with, like triangulation. So you are conveniently ignoring the probability of this seeker locking on APG81.


    Last edited by Atmosphere on Tue Feb 01, 2022 8:35 pm; edited 1 time in total

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    Su-35 vs F-22/F-35 - Page 11 Empty Re: Su-35 vs F-22/F-35

    Post  Atmosphere Tue Feb 01, 2022 8:28 pm

    bitcointrader70 wrote:
    Isos wrote:If the f-16 fired at 70km then they could have used RVV-AE at its limits (80km) but that would have still had a chance to hit or at least to make the f-16 go defensive allowing the su-30 to go on him and get closer for another missile launch and keep getting closer and keep launching missiles.

    But what you forget is that it was 2 su-30 vs 12 or more f-16. Su-30 kept a safe distance which is understandable. It's not some stupid US exercice where you can go 1 vs 10 and hope to win. Real war, real tactics. If the enemy outnumbers you with decent jets you keep safe above friendly SAMs and monitor the enemy, even if you have a su-57 or a f-22.

    This is the problem I have with Russia not having a real stealth jet operational. F35s can pressure flankers the same way by continuing to launch amraams and getting closer for better shots. And even though su35 is better aerodynamically it’s bleeding speed and energy dodging missiles while f35 is cruising pretty.

    "This is the problem I have with Russia not having a real stealth jet operational."
    Su-57 is Operational.

    " F35s can pressure flankers the same way by continuing to launch amraams and getting closer for better shots."
    No that is not how it works.
    Your post once again ignores everything from ECM to ESM picking up emissions, to integrated sensors of the surroundlings (L band radars and so on) giving more situation awareness. It then Ignores the fact that the NEZ of an AMRAAM is short and more or less comparable to that of an R-77-1. Therefore any relevant shot is already within or close to IRST range and well within radar range. (Unless you believe in bee size RCS from every angle and ignore the fact that aircraft are seen from a very wide range of angles in which RCS is magnitudes larger than that making that narrow front practically irrelevant)

    as for longer shots then that is highly dependant on missile's energy, if it has barely any energy to turn then it needs little maneuvering to avoid, in which energy of the airplane is quickly recovering, then there's another hole in your observation, which is the aircraft needing to dodge or not, since ECM can entirely divert a missile from it's target.
    All of your claims are very general and inaccurate, they do not have the precise contexts and the data and evidence to back those contexts up. It's like saying ''AESA Has ECCM, therefore it will bypass ECM" or saying "this missile is anti tank therefore will destroy any tank". With your very own logic, the T-72B3's radio, which has frequency hopping, will defeat every ESM and ECM in existance because there's the name "frequency hopping" included in.

    "And even though su35 is better aerodynamically it’s bleeding speed and energy dodging missiles while f35 is cruising pretty."
    Except that it isn't.
    Once again, you have no evidence on weather the F35 could really shoot at an Su35 from standoff distances given the realities stated above, they can even end up having comparable distances to fire, depending on ECM vs ECCM and how the RCS varies. And no, there isn't just "losing" energy, speed of its recovery is also a factor, and if the F35 is dodging too then it is in the same position. It might even be in a worse position if ECM does beat ECCM and the battle ends up heavily influenced by kinematics.

    Then you are ginoring how the Su35 fires way more missiles than the F35 with a larger variety of seekers (passive active, passive semi active) which drastically increases ECCM, And hit probablity compared to the monotone AMRAAM attacks.

    You are making long stroke statements with enormous plot holes in them, while selectively ignoring anything in favor of the Su-35, which smells an awful lot like F-16.net.

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