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    Poseidon carrier Submarines

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    owais.usmani

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    Post  owais.usmani Fri Jan 15, 2021 5:39 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Ulyanovsk is Yasen-class sub and won't be carrying Poseidons

    This article is BS


    The same is reported by TASS: https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/10465325
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    Post  PapaDragon Fri Jan 15, 2021 6:26 pm

    owais.usmani wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:
    Ulyanovsk is Yasen-class sub and won't be carrying Poseidons

    This article is BS


    The same is reported by TASS: https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/10465325

    It can be reported by God Emperor himself, it's still BS

    Russian journalists fucking up as usual

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    Post  Tsavo Lion Fri Jan 15, 2021 7:01 pm

    From before, Russia has one Yasen-class sub in operation, the “Severodvinsk”. The first modernized Yasen-M class vessel, the “Kazan”, is currently undergoing sea trials, while the “Novosibirsk”, “Krasnoyarsk”, “Arkhangelsk”, “Perm” and “Ulyanovsk” are in various phases of construction.
    https://thebarentsobserver.com/en/2020/07/russia-starts-construction-two-more-nuclear-powered-super-subs
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    Post  magnumcromagnon Sat Jan 16, 2021 12:04 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    owais.usmani wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:
    Ulyanovsk is Yasen-class sub and won't be carrying Poseidons

    This article is BS


    The same is reported by TASS: https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/10465325

    It can be reported by God Emperor himself, it's still BS

    Russian journalists fucking up as usual


    Mini Poseidon's could be developed, smaller to fit smaller dimensions torpedo tubes and used exclusively for tactical naval (anti-CVN) operations as opposed to Doomsday thermonuclear war.

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    Post  kvs Sat Jan 16, 2021 12:50 am

    Every internet expert knows the development plans of the Russian armed forces better than the Russian general staff
    and "God Emperor" himself.

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    Post  magnumcromagnon Sat Jan 16, 2021 12:59 am

    kvs wrote:Every internet expert knows the development plans of the Russian armed forces better than the Russian general staff
    and "God Emperor" himself.


    To be fair the name was going to be used for the Yasen-M sub, but then was decided to be repurposed and used for a Poseidon carrier instead. With that being said Rosatom has developed quite a few compact sized NPP's, nothing stops them from using the smaller and more compact NPP for the Burevestnik cruise missile on the mini-Poseidon torpedo. If anything Rosatom has shown us their new compact NPP's are very scalable.

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    Post  Isos Sat Jan 16, 2021 1:05 am

    magnumcromagnon wrote:

    Mini Poseidon's could be developed, smaller to fit smaller dimensions torpedo tubes and used exclusively for tactical naval (anti-CVN) operations as opposed to Doomsday thermonuclear war.

    And from where would you use them ? They will never be "mini" enough to fit in standard torpedo tube and they won't send Yasen subs back to shipyard to be converted.

    And they already have enough anti CVN weapons in service and in development.

    There is no need for Poseidon let alone a mini poseidon.

    Soviets already made the mistake to overestimate US ABM and spend a shiton of money to counter it while it was effective only in Reagan's stupid head.
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    Post  PapaDragon Sat Jan 16, 2021 3:02 am

    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    kvs wrote:Every internet expert knows the development plans of the Russian armed forces better than the Russian general staff
    and "God Emperor" himself.


    To be fair the name was going to be used for the Yasen-M sub, but then was decided to be repurposed and used for a Poseidon carrier instead. With that being said Rosatom has developed quite a few compact sized NPP's, nothing stops them from using the smaller and more compact NPP for the Burevestnik cruise missile on the mini-Poseidon torpedo. If anything Rosatom has shown us their new compact NPP's are very scalable.

    Got a source on this? Seems too important to just fly under the radar

    Also Poseidon is as mini as it's going to get

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    Post  magnumcromagnon Sat Jan 16, 2021 2:42 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    kvs wrote:Every internet expert knows the development plans of the Russian armed forces better than the Russian general staff
    and "God Emperor" himself.


    To be fair the name was going to be used for the Yasen-M sub, but then was decided to be repurposed and used for a Poseidon carrier instead. With that being said Rosatom has developed quite a few compact sized NPP's, nothing stops them from using the smaller and more compact NPP for the Burevestnik cruise missile on the mini-Poseidon torpedo. If anything Rosatom has shown us their new compact NPP's are very scalable.

    Got a source on this? Seems too important to just fly under the radar

    Also Poseidon is as mini as it's going to get


    From the Tass link by owais.

    Initially, it was assumed that the name "Ulyanovsk" will receive the sixth corps of the project 885M "Yasen-M" multipurpose submarine.

    https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/10465325

    Remember Rosatom made a whole suite of compact NPP's, one of them was for the Burevestnik cruise missile, which is by far the smallest of the compact NPP's and can be used for a smaller variant of Poseidon if needed.
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    Post  PapaDragon Sat Jan 16, 2021 3:16 pm


    This is that same article

    Are they implying that there is no sixth Yasen boat?
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    Post  Mindstorm Sat Jan 16, 2021 5:04 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    kvs wrote:Every internet expert knows the development plans of the Russian armed forces better than the Russian general staff
    and "God Emperor" himself.


    To be fair the name was going to be used for the Yasen-M sub, but then was decided to be repurposed and used for a Poseidon carrier instead. With that being said Rosatom has developed quite a few compact sized NPP's, nothing stops them from using the smaller and more compact NPP for the Burevestnik cruise missile on the mini-Poseidon torpedo. If anything Rosatom has shown us their new compact NPP's are very scalable.

    Got a source on this? Seems too important to just fly under the radar

    Also Poseidon is as mini as it's going to get



    Not a certain information but it seem that in revision of the 2020-2027 procurement plan the original construction order for "Ульяновск" was suddenly converted from пр. 885М to пр. 09853 to provide strategic forces the three carriers of complex 2M39 that was considered necessary to provide independent deterrence on both eastern and western theatre.

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    Post  PapaDragon Sat Jan 16, 2021 5:16 pm


    So they are one Yasen short now?
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    Post  magnumcromagnon Sat Jan 16, 2021 6:09 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    So they are one Yasen short now?

    Expect by year 2023-24 to see adjustments to the procurement plan.
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    Post  owais.usmani Sat Jan 16, 2021 7:06 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:

    This article is BS


    So I guess the article was not bullshit after all eh PD?
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    Post  PapaDragon Sat Jan 16, 2021 7:33 pm

    owais.usmani wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:

    This article is BS


    So I guess the article was not bullshit after all eh PD?

    Seems like it

    What I can't figure out is how come it's treated like no big deal on Russian forums

    You'd think something like this would kick up some fuss, SSN fleet got cut so they could have platform for weapons which are still not in service

    Did Russians expect US missile shield to start working flawlessly all of a sudden?

    And now they are down to just 8 new SSNs with no solution in sight

    Ordering separate additional Poseidon carrier is well and good but not if it means sacrificing ships they are desperately short on

    It will be super extra stupid if this is conversion of Yasen class and not modified Borei, it would mean that they will have another boutique class ship instead of standardized fleet



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    Post  Arrow Sat Jan 16, 2021 7:37 pm

    I think they will order another 885M in this year.

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    Post  GarryB Sun Jan 17, 2021 5:06 am

    When everything goes tits up SSNs are not going to matter... in fact in many ways the role of the SSGN was to sink US carrier groups to protect the mainland... MiG-31Ks with Kinzhal can suppliment and largely replace them in the defence role.... for attack around the world the Yasen will of course remain potent and supported with converted Oscars still very effective in that job...

    But Poseidon carriers offer a new capability that Yasens and Oscars can't really match... the loss of one Yasen to add the kick in the balls revenge that is Poseidon is probably well worth it for now... just add another Yasen to the orders and everything is fine...

    And in addition to train launched weapons mixed with IRBMs and IRCMs for use against Europe and Japan and Israel, and of course nuclear powered cruise missiles that can reach any target then larger heavier ICBMs going via the south pole on totally different flight trajectories and the problem the west faces with their ABM systems massively complicates... without really needing a massive increase in production...
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    Post  Big_Gazza Sun Jan 17, 2021 1:20 pm

    The Pr. 09851 Kharbarovsk is generally said to be based on the Pr. 955 Borei, which makes sense given the Poseidon is said to be a counterforce strategic weapon (ie for retaliatory attacks). Emphasis is on stealth and quiet running in protected bastions, hence pumpjet and lack of the more advanced and expensive combat systems on the latest Russian SSGNs like 855M Yasen.

    The Pr. 09853 Ulyanovsk however started life as a Pr. 885M SSGN, and has apparently been repurposed to a Poseidon carrier. This doesn't make sense if the Poseidon is purely a retalitory nuke, but does make sense if Poseidon has variants for other uses, such as killing CVNs from super long range (without the attacking boat having to risk itself by approaching the enemy battlegroup). I suspect that she is confirmation that the Russians envison the Poseidon to be a multi-discipline weapon system and that the Ulyanovsk won't be a one-of-a-kind unique build constructed solely to speed up the intro of Poseidon (which would be wasteful and complicate Navy logistics & support) but the lead ship of a new class of attack submarine. One model (09851) for strategic variants, another (09853) for tactical.

    It makes a lot of sense. If Russia can develop a large nuclear-powered UUV that can operate autonomously and run fast/deep to evade US/NATO ASW capabilities, then using it for conventional strikes against vital enemy naval targets such as CVNs is a no-brainer. Develop such a weapon and deploy it in numbers and the USN will be loathe to commit its absurdly expensive (and fragile) flattops anywhere near Russian forces. Take away the US ability to deploy carriers near Russian shores and the USN looses much of their teeth as a power projection force. thumbsup

    Question Were there any prior indications that Ulyanovsk was being repurposed as a Poseidon carrier? Seems strange that there was apparently no background chatter on this change, and that we only know about it because of Russian media announcements. Could this be an example of maskirovka?? Suspect
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    Post  PapaDragon Sun Jan 17, 2021 4:28 pm

    Big_Gazza wrote:...Take away the US ability to deploy carriers near Russian shores and the USN looses much of their teeth as a power projection force....

    They already lost that ability when Kinzhal went live and more stuff is on the way

    The whole fantasy about using nuclear torpedo against ships when much more reliable, cheaper and abundant nuclear missiles are available is Vann7 level stupidity



    Big_Gazza wrote:... Were there any prior indications that Ulyanovsk was being repurposed as a Poseidon carrier?

    None whatsoever and there has been nothing since, neither officially nor on forums

    Still dead quet



    Big_Gazza wrote:...Seems strange that there was apparently no background chatter on this change, and that we only know about it because of Russian media announcements. Could this be an example of maskirovka??

    Only way this would result in non-retraded outcome is if Ulyanovsk remained Yasen-SSGN and Poseidon is additional externally mounted feature which can be omitted in regular use

    But I am still hoping that this whole thing is just another case of Russian journalists being retards again, so far they haven't disappointed and it's better for them to be retards as usual rather than Navy




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    Post  Big_Gazza Sun Jan 17, 2021 10:54 pm

    The whole fantasy about using nuclear torpedo against ships when much more reliable, cheaper and abundant nuclear missiles are available is Vann7 level stupidity

    Not so sure. Being able to attack a CBG from a range of thousands of kms using a pack of stealthy UUVs whose launch cannot be detected by the enemy is a considerable capability. USN planners assume they will get warning of an imminent attack via radar detection of incoming misisles, or maybe detection of a missile launch via satellite. That won't happen with Poseidon, and the first warning they get might be the sudden detection of high speed screws in close proximity as the weapon fires up its reactor into high power mode and goes max speed for its attack run thru defended seaspace.

    As for it having a nuclear powerplant, so what? If the Russians are going to attack a USN CBG I think its safe to say that handing the US some grist for their propaganda mill (ie being so "irresponsible" as using a nuke propelled weapon and "recklessly polluting the enviroment") is a small price to pay for rupping the guts out of US power projection and deflating their monstrously over-pumped egos. Who gives a rats arse if a patch of ocean becomes a little radioactive? A CVNs breached reactor will release far more radionuclides into the environment than a Poseidon, but that won't stop Russia sinking one (or several) if the need arises.

    But I am still hoping that this whole thing is just another case of Russian journalists being retards again, so far they haven't disappointed and it's better for them to be retards as usual rather than Navy


    Yes, I think there is a good chance you are right, as journalistic incompetance is a renewable resource and available in vast quantities, but time will tell....
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    Post  Isos Sun Jan 17, 2021 11:21 pm

    Carrier task group can't detect an ebemy sub in the middle of their formation. Why develop torpedoes that have thousands of km ranges ?

    They can just use a 650mm torpedo. Cold war era 650mm torpedo had 100km range so now by applying technology developed for fizik and UGST torpedoes on them they could reach 200-250km which is more than enough to attack them safely.

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    Post  Big_Gazza Sun Jan 17, 2021 11:38 pm

    Conventional torpedo rely on fuels or battery power and simply don't have the legs for long range cruise and have enough in reserve for a sustained high-energy attack profile at target.

    Poseidons launched at long range will give the Russians a near-certain "sneak attack" capability and ensure the launcing platforms will be safe. It's not the ASW forces on USN CBGs that are the threat but their SSNs. The seppostanis have dozens of them and they could be used to interdict Russian waters and hunt down Russian submarine strike assets before they can approach close enough to a CBG to launch missiles. Poseidons allow Russia to set up a defense zone within Russian territorial waters and maximise their capabilities to defend against SSN interdiction while still having the chops to effectively takedown CBGs without having to leave the defended havens.

    I should have thought the advantages of the Poseidon are clear. Think of it not as a mega-torpedo but a kamikaze SSN whose mission is to sneak up to a high value target and blow it outta the water. Why risk a manned boat when a robot will do the same job?
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    Post  kvs Sun Jan 17, 2021 11:46 pm

    Worrying about the optics of nuclear contamination during WWIII is to put it mildly, detached from reality. Nobody will giving a
    flying fcuk about the environment when faced with nuclear annihilation.

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    Post  kvs Sun Jan 17, 2021 11:55 pm

    Big_Gazza wrote:Conventional torpedo rely on fuels or battery power and simply don't have the legs for long range cruise and have enough in reserve for a sustained high-energy attack profile at target.

    Poseidons launched at long range will give the Russians a near-certain "sneak attack" capability and ensure the launcing platforms will be safe.  It's not the ASW forces on USN CBGs that are the threat but their SSNs.  The seppostanis have dozens of them and they could be used to interdict Russian waters and hunt down Russian submarine strike assets before they can approach close enough to a CBG to launch missiles. Poseidons allow Russia to set up a defense zone within Russian territorial waters and maximise their capabilities to defend against SSN interdiction while still having the chops to effectively takedown CBGs without having to leave the defended havens.

    I should have thought the advantages of the Poseidon are clear.  Think of it not as a mega-torpedo but a kamikaze SSN whose mission is to sneak up to a high value target and blow it outta the water.  Why risk a manned boat when a robot will do the same job?

    Poseidon type weapons are a real game-changer even if clowns on internet fora willfully refuse to see this and engage in inane troll-think.
    Having autonomous large nuclear warhead carrying and nuclear propelled submarine drones that can evade any detection system by
    having the ability to lower their noise emissions below ocean background noise (which is ubiquitous and substantial) snookers all
    carrier groups completely. Carrier groups are sitting ducks that can't even save part of their ships by scattering. There is no way
    to protect the carrier(s) without tethering the support ships to a proximity range. So the whole group can be nuked from just below
    the surface. The induced tsunami will be enough to roll over any ship in the group that is lucky to escape the direct blast.

    The retards in Washington, London and the other vassal capitals still have not clued in to the seriousness of this real threat.
    Every day that passes narrows their options to "put Russia in its place". They will have to spawn more Navalny's and rent-a-crowd
    lemming mobs to bring Russia down. But even that "soft power" projection has lost any effectiveness in Russia. There will not be
    any regime change because some group of idiots kills its own members with a stampede like the one during "Bloody Sunday" in 1905.

    The NATzO anti-Russian cheese is so thick that even the dumb part of the Russian population is being turned off by it. Professional
    malcontents living off western money are totally irrelevant. Their job is to rile up the mob and they can't do that.

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    Post  Isos Mon Jan 18, 2021 12:06 am

    Conventional torpedo rely on fuels or battery power and simply don't have the legs for long range cruise and have enough in reserve for a sustained high-energy attack profile at target.

    Actually wire guided torpedoes are powered by the submarine until the wire breaks then they run for the final attack on batteries.

    533mm torpedoes have ranges over 70km. 650mm are way bigger and could reach 200km.

    They already have speeds of 100km/h with cruising speeds of 50km/h.

    If you want a final attack that goes fast just put a mini shkval as a warhead. But IMO modern torpedoes have almost 100% Pk.

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