Poseidon carrier Submarines

LMFS wrote:"The presence of these weapons will allow the Navy to solve a wide range of tasks in the far sea zone, in waters close to the enemy's territory," Vladimir Korolev, then commander - in - chief of the Russian Navy, said in 2018.

I wouldn't exclude USN carrier groups or US navy "invasion groupings" . BTW when Ben Wallace will start talking about nuke strikes against Russia Zakharova shall just remind him: Ben, Poseidon.

GunshipDemocracy wrote:I wouldn't exclude USN carrier groups or US navy "invasion groupings"  .  BTW when Ben Wallace will start talking about nuke strikes against Russia Zakharova shall just remind him: Ben, Poseidon.

Sure! Dealing with surface fleets is rather easy with Tsirkon, at lest in the medium term. But subs are a substantial problem (think the numbers of SSGNs in USN or the SSBN controlled by rabid Russophobes in UK) and Poseidon is a great remedy against them

LMFS wrote:

GunshipDemocracy wrote:I wouldn't exclude USN carrier groups or US navy "invasion groupings"  .  BTW when Ben Wallace will start talking about nuke strikes against Russia Zakharova shall just remind him: Ben, Poseidon.

Sure! Dealing with surface fleets is rather easy with Tsirkon, at lest in the medium term. But subs are a substantial problem (think the numbers of SSGNs in USN or the SSBN controlled by rabid Russophobes in UK) and Poseidon is a great remedy against them

haha not only in UK but since London can be reached by small radioactive Tsunami...

a s for surface fleets I respectfully disagree. Zircon carrier needs to com close - like 1000km and can be seen by AWACS. Poseidon carrier remains deep and can used to kill carrier form deep. With a nuke perhaps the whole groupings. But why not to combine? Zircon form above Poseidons below?

a s for surface fleets I respectfully disagree. Zircon carrier needs to com close - like 1000km and can be seen by AWACS. Poseidon carrier remains deep and can used to kill carrier form deep. With a nuke perhaps the whole groupings. But why not to combine? Zircon form above Poseidons below?

You mean like a Zircon carrier like Yasen? Zircon is primarily a replacement for Onyx/Yakhont and is a ship and sub launched missile... at 500km the AWACS might notice the missile being launched and climbing, but I doubt it.

GarryB wrote:You mean like a Zircon carrier like Yasen? Zircon is primarily a replacement for Onyx/Yakhont and is a ship and sub launched missile... at 500km the AWACS might notice the missile being launched and climbing, but I doubt it.

Exactly. Tsirkon has a range between 1000 km (supposedly sea targets) and 1500 km (land targets), that is more than enough for a sub to get in range of a CBG, fire a whole salvo and flee with impunity. At such ranges the AWACS may see the missiles coming (plasma sheath has some effects in that regard), but be useless to stop them, and the ASW grouping cannot operate effectively at such distances or over such areas, that is more than 3 million square km to search for an almost invisible, moving target... the only real problem Russia has still is that USN has a lot of SSNs they can dedicate to permanently track their own Tsirkon carriers, and that is one of the issues Poseidon may allow to handle in a radically different way. Of course PLAN numbers help here, but that is IMO also the reason why so many modernised SS(G)Ns are coming back to service between 2022 and 2024, not only 949AM able to carry Tsirkon themselves but also 971 that may be destined to provide cover. It is still too early to know if they can carry Tsirkon too, or some version of it, they have 650 mm torpedo tubes capable for the Kalibr-PL. Still good enough as USN sub hunters in any case.

Martyanov wrote about the Poseidon yesterday BTW, he notices the choir of wailing Western voices calling for prohibition of such weapons altogether... **** off losers, you made your bed now sleep in it

https://smoothiex12.blogspot.com/2022/07/belgorod-is-in.html

LMFS wrote:

GarryB wrote:You mean like a Zircon carrier like Yasen? Zircon is primarily a replacement for Onyx/Yakhont and is a ship and sub launched missile... at 500km the AWACS might notice the missile being launched and climbing, but I doubt it.

Exactly. Tsirkon has a range between 1000 km (supposedly sea targets) and 1500 km (land targets), that is more than enough for a sub to get in range of a CBG, fire a whole salvo and flee with impunity. At such ranges the AWACS may  see the missiles coming (plasma sheath has some effects in that regard), but be useless to stop them, and the ASW grouping cannot operate effectively at such distances or over such areas, that is more than 3 million square km to search for an almost invisible, moving target... the only real problem Russia has still is that USN has a lot of SSNs they can dedicate to permanently track their own Tsirkon carriers, and that is one of the issues Poseidon may allow to handle in a radically different way. Of course PLAN numbers help here, but that is IMO also the reason why so many modernised SS(G)Ns are coming back to service between 2022 and 2024, not only 949AM able to carry Tsirkon themselves but also 971 that may be destined to provide cover. It is still too early to know if they can carry Tsirkon too, or some version of it, they have 650 mm torpedo tubes capable for the Kalibr-PL. Still good enough as USN sub hunters in any case.

Martyanov wrote about the Poseidon yesterday BTW, he notices the choir of wailing Western voices calling for prohibition of such weapons altogether... **** off losers, you made your bed now sleep in it

https://smoothiex12.blogspot.com/2022/07/belgorod-is-in.html

Zircon can and will be used on Kilo's as well since they can launch through the torpedo tube. Already works with Kalibr.

At that point, it gives far more reach than the US would like, and then wears down their ability to try and track all the subs.

sepheronx wrote:Zircon can and will be used on Kilo's as well since they can launch through the torpedo tube.  Already works with Kalibr.

At that point, it gives far more reach than the US would like, and then wears down their ability to try and track all the subs.

Of course that would make a lot of sense, but by now it seems it is just for vertical launch, and the diameter of the missile seems too big for the the 533 mm tubes. But there was talk about a reduced size version if I am not wrong, and in principle I don't see why tube launch could not be feasible. So yes, USN has reasons to worry now and in the future.

LMFS wrote:

sepheronx wrote:Zircon can and will be used on Kilo's as well since they can launch through the torpedo tube.  Already works with Kalibr.

At that point, it gives far more reach than the US would like, and then wears down their ability to try and track all the subs.

Of course that would make a lot of sense, but by now it seems it is just for vertical launch, and the diameter of the missile seems too big for the the 533 mm tubes. But there was talk about a reduced size version if I am not wrong, and in principle I don't see why tube launch could not be feasible. So yes, USN has reasons to worry now and in the future.

Reduced size will come soon enough, probably already being worked on as we speak as its also supposed to be used for the airforce (or airforce variant, not sure).

sepheronx wrote:
Of course that would make a lot of sense, but by now it seems it is just for vertical launch, and the diameter of the missile seems too big for the the 533 mm tubes. But there was talk about a reduced size version if I am not wrong, and in principle I don't see why tube launch could not be feasible. So yes, USN has reasons to worry now and in the future.

Reduced size will come soon enough, probably already being worked on as we speak as its also supposed to be used for the air force (or airforce variant, not sure).[/quote]

when you look in diameter of Kh-15 (carried in Tu-22 bomb ay - ~52 cm) and requirement that GZUR missile shall fit there we can assume that 533mm GZUR for subs could be an option

The BEAST...K-329

Nice pic of Belgorod.

I want to build on some of the thoughts in this thread with the following speculation:

Consider that:

1. a new SSN project is necessary, because if none are developed soon, with construction starting toward the end of this decade, the Russian SSN fleet will collapse between the middle and end of the next decade
   
2. the Laika SSN project is reportedly not currently being funded by the navy...the company is only doing some slow work on its own initiative
   
3. the Yasen(-M) project is already closer to an SSN performance profile than any other SSGN, especially compared to the Oscar submarines
   
4. Poseidon could potentially be used for more than strategic deterrence, e.g. long-range reconnaissance, ASW, tactical nuclear strikes on CBGs, some of which covers the task set of SSNs
   
5. it's unlikely a Poseidon can just be "left out there" for years, since it's a complex system that would carry out immensely important tasks and there are no such systems that can stay for years in salt water without maintenance while retaining high reliability; improving reliability of multi-year deployment via containers will make the weapon static and thus much less useful, such that a greater number of Poseidon carrier submarines would be necessary if Poseidons are to partially take over the SSN role
   
6. there are already apparently three different Poseidon carrier projects: Belgorod, Khabarovsk and probably Ulyanovsk, with the Khabarovsk project in particular seeming too narrow in its scope if it were just a Poseidon carrier for deterrence purposes...but having a large number of SSBNs, SSGNs (Yasen), Poseidon carriers (SSPNs?) AND ALSO something like Laika (SSN) is probably too much for the Russian budget
   

From these facts it could be surmised that since the classic SSN / SSBN / SSGN paradigm for the nuclear submarine fleets of superpowers is already many decades old, Russia is thinking outside the box and planning on changing the paradigm. SSBNs are staying, but instead of having submarine missile trucks (SSGN) and hunter subs (SSN) there will be a chimera (project 885(M)) and a new type (Poseidon carrier), which is being experimented with in various forms (primarily Khabarovsk and Ulyanovsk with Belgorod serving as an almost "freebie prototype"). So there may not actually be a Laika SSN project if the Khabarovsk- or Ulyanovsk-type subs turn out to be sufficient for covering the role of tracking and threatening enemy nuclear subs. The Laika project would then serve the role of "plan B" in case this paradigm shift doesn't work for whatever reason and/or Maskirovka and/or some basic research project to improve submarine technology for the next round of designs after Borei/Yasen etc.. The main "missing link" here would be the uncertainty surrounding the potential reuse capability of Poseidon and how well such a weapon can track modern enemy nuclear subs without having lots of space for sonar and other sensors.

Thoughts?

IMHO, UUV tech will need to improve to the point where an autonomous UUV can function as effectively as a crewed SNN. I can't see AI systems bridging this gap for decades. "Autonomous" UUVs or surface vessels are mostly just miltech porn at this point in time, same kind of USN exceptionalist self-arousal like depictions of a fleet of 20+ invisible Zumwalts fitted with lasers and rail guns...

Autonomous weapons - Yes. Autonomous underwater platforms to patrol, track, investigate, engage in combat, then return to port for resupply before rinse/repeat? - No.

Yeah, I'm a bit skeptical of Poseidon's abilities to go and find enemy SSBNs by itself, too, but I thought if nothing else the Poseidon carrier could be the one to track down the enemy SSBN and then deploy one or two Poseidons, which would just have to follow the SSBN around, so a much easier task. Then there would need to be some way for it to receive instructions (basically just one of two things: either at what point in time it should take out the SSBN - this might even be given at the time of launch - or that it should return to some collection point) and possibly give its location periodically and - voila! You've got the ability to tail all adversary SSBNs in times of tension (for this the Poseidon carriers could try to stay close to the enemy SSBN bases...very difficult for sure, as enemy SSNs will be on the lookout for that).

I agree it is not ready for autonomous drone, but cruise missile or land mine would be fine, you could design them to merge in with civilian traffic and operate directly below neutral or even enemy ships when sailing through narrow straights where they might otherwise be detected.

Equally once in the water they might go to a deep place and submerge 3-4km deep and just sit for a month or several months and wait and then go on its mission to detonate nuclear warheads in water at various spots on the planet...

Rather than a autonomous drone, as a robot or tele controlled vehicle it would be interesting for various roles... destroying pipelines and cables and underwater listening arrays etc etc... hell it could even be a special forces tug... most mini subs are slow as hell and have short range... imagine a team of Naval Spetsnaz divers who just have those underwater torpedo shaped subs they travel around in that could be hooked up to a Poseidon and towed out to sea, with the tow cable incorporating a power connection so the minisubs can have electricity and perhaps oxygen generators and heating for the divers in their own subs to enter and leave enemy waters very quickly... say Poseidon takes them from 100km offshore from a roll on roll off ship or even a helicopter carrier with a flooded dock for landing ships to operate from their rear... the Poseidon drags the minisubs with divers 95km and releases the minisubs that then travel the remaining 5km at say 10km/h silently and then they park them below the low tide waterline and land at the beach in scuba gear... when they finish their mission... into the water and into their mini subs and sail out or even have Poseidon nip in and collect them... once hooked on it can go out to the waiting ship or sub for recovery and debriefing.

BELGOROD

https://flot.com/2023/%D0%A2%D0%B8%D1%85%D0%BE%D0%BE%D0%BA%D0%B5%D0%B0%D0%BD%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%B9%D0%A4%D0%BB%D0%BE%D1%829/

The Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation is working on the issue of forming a new division of submarines in Kamchatka, which will receive two special-purpose nuclear submarines built at Sevmash - Belgorod and Khabarovsk. According to Izvestia , citing sources in the military department, the construction of the corresponding coastal infrastructure is already being completed. The tasks that the division will solve have not been disclosed.

Now two divisions of nuclear submarines are stationed in Kamchatka. The 25th includes missile submarines with intercontinental ballistic missiles, the 10th includes multi-purpose submarines with cruise missiles and torpedoes. Both divisions are actively re-equipping with new projects 885M "Ash-M" and 955A "Borey-A".

Based on the documents of arbitration courts at the disposal of Izvestia, in Krasheninnikov Bay, the construction of coastal infrastructure for the Belgorod submarines of project 09851 and Khabarovsk of project 09852, as well as for the support vessel of project 20183, is being completed. in 2015.

Nice pic of Belgorod.

Full resolution of above picture (for your desktop):

http://www.wrk.ru/forums/attachment.php?item=1888253

Russia will be protected by Poseidon https://nvo.ng.ru/concepts/2023-04-20/1_1233_poseidon.html?print=Y

Poseidon is a revolutionary weapon system ("without foreign analogs" as Russians like to say ) and IMHO its development and deployment has shown clear signs of incremental progression. Sarov was a unique boat designed a developmental testbed for Poseidon, a very heavily modified Kilo equipped with a single launch tube. With the prototype technology sucessfully demonstrated, they committed to the Belgorod as a special missions boat (*), and then began work on a combat boat (Khabarovsk Pr 09851) to achieve IOC of the strategic counterforce version. 09851 is designed for strategic duty, so is based on the Borei SSBN with emphasis on stealth and long duration. I suspect however that they plan to introduce a conventionally-armed variant for use against USN carriers, so the Pr 09853 might be based on the Yasen-M SSGN for active war-fighting in the conventional theatre?

Several possibilities for "Ulyanovsk" :

(a) There are two boats, 1x885M and 1x09853. Best outcome by far...
(b) There is one boat, laid down as a 09853 but publically listed as an 885M for purpose of maskirovka
(c) There is one boat, originally intended as a 885M, but repurposed early in the build when the 09853 design was completed

(*) Belgorod is an odd fish, and it makes a strange operational fit for such a large mothership with a Paltus mini-sub and UUVs to have Poseidons if the later is just a strategic counterforce weapon. I suspect that Poseidon, being a fully-fledged UUV rather than just a "torpedo", will come in a range of variants and that Belgorod will carry them rigged for non-combat purposes such as intelligence gathering and probing NATO seaborne defense. eg Poseidons are launched, perform their mission, then return to Belgorod and are recovered via the moonpool used to support the Paltus.

Anyways, time will tell...

Poseidon is a revolutionary system, but only if we consider the naval warfare.
If we think for a moment what it really is, we came to the conclusion that it is an underwater cruise missile.
That is what makes it revolutionary - nobody before figured out that the same principles that apply cruise missiles, can be used under water.
If operates thanks to detailed sea bottom mapping Soviets were known for for decades. It can simple stick to the ocean floor for it's entire route, making it impossible to intercept. It operates at depth out f a reach for any modern torpedo, at speed outrunning them either.
It is impossible to effectively track&intercept at the moment.
This revolution is much more than implementing Tomahawks as a part of strategic carriers. Soviets had tools to deal with them, only needed a moment to redesign/modernize some stuff. LDSD radars were already widespread, missiles reached the minimal altitudes without much issues, radar coverage was already fine and flying radars were on duty - only the numbers needed to be increased.
Yet, redesigning the entire complex took years, and put enormous financial stress to the Soviets.

Now imagine the submersible cruise missile.
That is faster than your underwater destruction tools, dives deeper than them, and operates along routes you have no idea about.

Only mapping of the possible hidden access routes will demand years of intense hydrological studies. There are no weapons to take it down. There are hardly any systems capable of finding it - considering its unlimited range.
Oh yeah, it is a revolution indeed.

Arrow wrote:

The concept itself dates back to the beginning of the Cold War. If Poseidon has warheads, which is speculated to be only 2MT, no tsunami wave will arise from it.

2MT is quite a substantial warhead