sepheronx wrote:It is clear as crystal that the preliminary data blames Russia/rebels.
It's not. No technical investigation in the past has blamed someone unless he was proactively involved, and in every single case it was concluded that it was suicide.
The final conclusions of the investigation panel, that is an annex to the technical text with no legal value, and since probably it's going to be politically biased expect some esoteric wording about the facts portrayed in the technical report garnished with a lot of empty words and all kinds of condemnations.
Neutrality wrote:The whole blame game on Russia is heavily influenced by the fact that the BUK is a Russian system.
A Soviet SAM system which means that Ukraine uses it as well. Russia would have an even harder time if the BUK was as Russian as T-72B3.
Again. It. does. not. matter. The common reader knows jackshit about weapon systems. He reads the articles and assumes it as truth.
All headlines in the MSM speak about a RUSSIAN BUK system. This gives the reader the impression that Russia supplied it and that kind of headline doesn't necessarily make the MSM wrong. Because the BUK IS Russian made. You see what I'm getting at with this? Again, it's a good example of information warfare. In this exact case, ambiguity IS the information warfare.
Last edited by Neutrality on Thu Jul 30, 2015 5:18 pm; edited 1 time in total
Neutrality wrote:The whole blame game on Russia is heavily influenced by the fact that the BUK is a Russian system.
A Soviet SAM system which means that Ukraine uses it as well. Russia would have an even harder time if the BUK was as Russian as T-72B3.
Again. It. does. not. matter. The common reader knows jackshit about weapon systems. He reads the articles and assumes it as truth.
All headlines in the MSM speak about a RUSSIAN BUK system. This gives the reader the impression that Russia supplied it and that kind of headline doesn't necessarily make the MSM wrong. Because the BUK IS Russian made. You see what I'm getting at with this? Again, it's a good example of information warfare. In this exact case, ambiguity IS the information warfare.
It matters insofar as it allows Russia to counter this narrative with its own BUK narrative rather than just denying it.
A few days ago, a group of American soldiers caused a security alert at Vienna’s Schwechat airport. The men were stopped while trying to travel with army weapons to Ukraine without any necessary permits, the newspaper wrote. The Austrian police had to intervene and remove the weapons. An investigation into the case was launched.
The nine US soldiers were on their way from Washington to Ukraine, where they were to be deployed. "However, since there were problems with their connecting flight after a stopover in Schwechat, they had to rebook their flight and, therefore, leave the transit area," Colonel Michael Bauer, Defense Ministry spokesman said.
M16 assault rifles and pistols were discovered in the luggage of the American soldiers at a security checkpoint. The incident caused huge shock, because the weapons were not declared and registered and, thus, carried illegally. The soldiers had not obtained the required transit approval by Austria. In special cases, the stay or transit of foreign military forces may be officially allowed after completing the application procedure, but the US soldiers did not send any required requests.
The attempt by the American embassy to obtain the approval after the incident was rejected for legal reasons. Instead of going to Ukraine, the soldiers had to fly back home to Washington and were allowed to take the weapons with them, the newspaper reported.
Agreed, but it made me smile and it is pretty original. Anyway, Sputnik is always 100% bang on accurate, aren't they? (rhetorical question )
Looks like it was true.
WASHINGTON (Sputnik) — US Marines stopped in Austria en route to Ukraine did not have proper clearances because of accidental oversight, US European Command spokesperson David Westover told Sputnik on Thursday. Austria’s media reported on Wednesday that nine US military personnel were stopped at Vienna’s Schwechat airport while trying to travel with army weapons to Ukraine without any necessary permits.
“By unintentional oversight, the necessary clearances required for transiting Austria were not properly processed prior to their departure. The Austrian authorities were very helpful in resolving this issue,” Westover explained. The spokesperson continued, the Marines were stopped on July 19 while travelling on NATO travel orders through Vienna on commercial flights from Alaska to Ukraine. The group was scheduled to participate in Exercise Saber Guardian in Ukraine, he added.
Austrian Defense Ministry spokesman Colonel Michael Bauer said that there were problems with a connecting flight, and the soldiers had to leave the transit area and rebook.
M16 assault rifles and pistols were discovered in the luggage of the American soldiers at a security checkpoint, according to the Kurier newspaper's report on Wednesday. “The Marines have since returned to their home duty station in Alaska,” Westover said. “US European Command and the US Embassy in Vienna are grateful for the support of the Austrian Government to coordinate the onward movement of nine US Marines last week.”
sepheronx wrote:The MH-17 situation wont look good for Moscow. While they are right in saying that the investigation must be completed first, the Ukrainians were the ones whom also pushed for the Tribunal and thus were probably guaranteed that they wont be found guilty regardless. Add in, with comments from Churkin that there was no tribunal for the Russian plane shot down over Ukraine back in 2001 mixed with this is making everyone state Russia is guilty. At this point, they should release their evidence because if they do it afterwards, people will just assume it is doctored. The preliminary reports are out and was handed to each party. So my guess is that they blamed Russia entirely due to the equipment used by rebels and thus why Ukraine and US is pushing it. If Ukraine was going to be viewed as guilty, they wouldnt be pushing this.
The points that Churkin asked, which are good ones like 1) why was the plane diverted over a war zone where planes were shot down previously, and (2) where is the flight control center recordings? Will largely be ignored and never answered. Rebels will be found guilty and Russia will be found guilty in association. Maybe they may go as far as blaming Russian military for manning and such the air defence system (the investigators wouldnt know but US will doctor some up "evidence".
The investigation will be a farce and used to blame Russia. Saying Russia will help with investigation will be unwanted and be denied.
There is a twist here. All the information passed by the data providing countries is covered by their 'secrecy pact'. If there is more data that Russia has not yet released to anyone that will not be covered. If this were the case then, if it is not Russia's fault, someone out there might be quite concerned as to what might be released.
In a way maybe Russia is trying to keep the others 'honest' unless the whole thing will be an agreed stitch-up with side benefits. Whatever it is we may never know.
That doesnt make sense. In the end, clearly they are blaming Russia as they did at the start, and Ukraine is denying nearly everything else and wont answer what happened to the control center data and why the pla.e was diverted over that area. You think the Russians want to lose credibility amongst their allies/partners as well as credibility from their own voting base over some secrecy pact or such? BS. It is clear as crystal that the preliminary data blames Russia/rebels.
Of course they are. US and other Western Intel agencies are watching Russia very closely and the situation in Ukraine even closer. They have to have some assets that could aid an impartial investigation greatly, though satellite overwatch to even boots on the ground. The US wouldn't hesitate to back up all their propaganda and rhetoric if their data did show the Russian Armed Forces driving into Ukraine, targeting and downing a civilian airliner, and driving back out. So far they have been silent.
A few days ago, a group of American soldiers caused a security alert at Vienna’s Schwechat airport. The men were stopped while trying to travel with army weapons to Ukraine without any necessary permits, the newspaper wrote. The Austrian police had to intervene and remove the weapons. An investigation into the case was launched.
The nine US soldiers were on their way from Washington to Ukraine, where they were to be deployed. "However, since there were problems with their connecting flight after a stopover in Schwechat, they had to rebook their flight and, therefore, leave the transit area," Colonel Michael Bauer, Defense Ministry spokesman said.
M16 assault rifles and pistols were discovered in the luggage of the American soldiers at a security checkpoint. The incident caused huge shock, because the weapons were not declared and registered and, thus, carried illegally. The soldiers had not obtained the required transit approval by Austria. In special cases, the stay or transit of foreign military forces may be officially allowed after completing the application procedure, but the US soldiers did not send any required requests.
The attempt by the American embassy to obtain the approval after the incident was rejected for legal reasons. Instead of going to Ukraine, the soldiers had to fly back home to Washington and were allowed to take the weapons with them, the newspaper reported.
Agreed, but it made me smile and it is pretty original. Anyway, Sputnik is always 100% bang on accurate, aren't they? (rhetorical question )
Looks like it was true.
WASHINGTON (Sputnik) — US Marines stopped in Austria en route to Ukraine did not have proper clearances because of accidental oversight, US European Command spokesperson David Westover told Sputnik on Thursday. Austria’s media reported on Wednesday that nine US military personnel were stopped at Vienna’s Schwechat airport while trying to travel with army weapons to Ukraine without any necessary permits.
“By unintentional oversight, the necessary clearances required for transiting Austria were not properly processed prior to their departure. The Austrian authorities were very helpful in resolving this issue,” Westover explained. The spokesperson continued, the Marines were stopped on July 19 while travelling on NATO travel orders through Vienna on commercial flights from Alaska to Ukraine. The group was scheduled to participate in Exercise Saber Guardian in Ukraine, he added.
Austrian Defense Ministry spokesman Colonel Michael Bauer said that there were problems with a connecting flight, and the soldiers had to leave the transit area and rebook.
M16 assault rifles and pistols were discovered in the luggage of the American soldiers at a security checkpoint, according to the Kurier newspaper's report on Wednesday. “The Marines have since returned to their home duty station in Alaska,” Westover said. “US European Command and the US Embassy in Vienna are grateful for the support of the Austrian Government to coordinate the onward movement of nine US Marines last week.”
It still doesn't pass the smell test. No one makes that kind of mistake when traveling with weapons, civilian or military. Why were 'US Marines' traveling from Alaska to Ukraine to participate in a training exercise with the UAF when there's a couple Marines sitting in Quantico and LeJeune and the only two official Marine bases in Alaska are two small 'recruiting' offices? Why were they bringing their service weapons with them when it would have been easier and more convenient to simply have service weapons shipped in the west Ukraine for the exercise as was done for all the rest of the troops. I don't remember any USMC cadre scheduled to participate in that particular 'training exercise'.
I smell a rat. Two dedicated sniper teams with CaC? Nahh, they wouldn't. Would they?
Last edited by auslander on Thu Jul 30, 2015 6:57 pm; edited 1 time in total
Ukraine has veto rights on the publication of the results and stated that they will never be publicly released. Yet they wanted a tribunal regardless but knew Russia would vote against it.
Ukraine has veto rights on the publication of the results and stated that they will never be publicly released. Yet they wanted a tribunal regardless but knew Russia would vote against it.
The whole thing is messed up.
Can't Russia start leaking evidences that proves Ukrops and their CIA masters did it? I believe Russia should start playing things dirty too as thats what the US + Ukrops have been doing since the beginning. Start more sabotage/bombarding of Ukraine until it breaks to pieces and leak sensitive weapons technology to all nations hostile to Merica, hit them hard where it hurts the most!
I don't get it? What is there to discuss and beat the meat in that thread how the West "finaly made up their mind" and other nonsense. We all know who was it, not the ukrainians out of their stupidity but Operation Northwoods an US planned false flag to blame russia. If the media the western controlled MSM is focusing on something that tightly with blatant propaganda just hours after something happened then you know they are either responsible for it or they knew it in advance and used their media to cover it for political reasons. You have been told the same thing a year ago and you still keep on this stupid pseudo- "we don't know for sure" bullshit. We know it, they know it and even the PRO USA idiots are damn sure that it was their side.
not that I support that tribunal, but as an innocent party Russia shouldn't vetoe it.
Of course it will be a fair tribunal, so Russia has nothing to fear if they are not guilty... after all when they invaded Georgia the west fully supported their rights to defend their peace keepers... oh, hang on... no they didn't... for months afterwards it was Russian aggression in Georgia and that poor little defenceless tie eater calling for his NATO allies to defend them against big aggressive Russia.
Even with everything we already know about the so-called "West," I still am amazed at how dirty their tactics are. As is, MH17 very much looks like a frame up job, either by design or just used as such. The party that should be regarded as the leading suspect is an official member of the investigation with veto rights. That alone stinks to high heaven. And now, the West is clearly doubling-down on their ruse with this tribunal stunt. They're 100% guaranteed to eventually place the blame on NAF political and military leaders on the basis of highly-dubious "evidence." No matter though, the ever-reliable MSM will use this to help create momentum for an intervention, or demands that NAF leadership be delivered Milosevic-style into the hands of their enemies. The "tribunal" is obviously the method they're trying to use to establish the basis for that outcome. And, it's obvious that Russia would see this ploy for what it is.
Russia and its allies should double their efforts to fight this dirty Propaganda war initiated by US&puppets. Breaking American influence + economy should make them think twice about their delusional feeling of superiority
Project Canada wrote:Russia and its allies should double their efforts to fight this dirty Propaganda war initiated by US&puppets. Breaking American influence + economy should make them think twice about their delusional feeling of superiority
Your voice sounds familiar, I've heard it somewhere.
Project Canada wrote:Russia and its allies should double their efforts to fight this dirty Propaganda war initiated by US&puppets. Breaking American influence + economy should make them think twice about their delusional feeling of superiority
They are already doing it. Have you been paying attention to the news? Breaking the US economy and its allies will be catastrophic for the entire world. It's better to "relocate" all that capital. Hence the BRICS bank and the AIIB. These institutions are created in order to "steal" that money from the mainstream financial institutions thus taking away their financial power. That's how I see it anyway. This is the multipolar world that Putin was talking about in 2007 at the Munich conference and I hope he will succeed.
Project Canada wrote:Russia and its allies should double their efforts to fight this dirty Propaganda war initiated by US&puppets. Breaking American influence + economy should make them think twice about their delusional feeling of superiority
Your voice sounds familiar, I've heard it somewhere.
Out of nowhere the US has included several banks into the sanctions list, just now. This move shows how desperate the US actually is. They are pushing heavily for economic warfare. If this is considered a serious move I'd say Moscow should watch the other way and let the NAF finish the job.
Neutrality wrote:Out of nowhere the US has included several banks into the sanctions list, just now. This move shows how desperate the US actually is. They are pushing heavily for economic warfare. If this is considered a serious move I'd say Moscow should watch the other way and let the NAF finish the job.
Revenge for the Security Council veto, pure and simple.
Why did Russia give that plane wreck to the West instead of keeping it for itself and conducting it's own investigation? Didn't the plane land to rebel-controlled territory? Why did Russia ONCE AGAIN give all the propaganda weapons to the West?
Drunken Ukrainian military on Saxone demolished fences Kiev
(not sure he's drunk, but not sure he isn't!
It says: Lugansk 26/07/15 separatists drove people to bathe, eat barbecue and drink beer! Ukraine segodnya.Lugansk 26 07. 15 Dear respectable Ukrainians! And most importantly the most decent of you Masha Gaidar and Misha Saakashvili! Those damn terrorists under the leadership of the main villain Vladimir Putin on Sunday drove people to bathe, eat barbecue and drink beer! Disgraceful! Poor people! The lake is full of cars and people! Decent man wheelbarrow even had nowhere to deliver!
New batch of Ukrainian military who returned from Donbas get yourself plot:
(Is this this year? This Spring? WHERE are all these Ukrainians getting killed? I know in the East, but this isn't in Ukrainian news. The Ukrainian gov. promised them land, and they're giving them land, but not exactly what they promised them. )
& are they wearing Right Sector arm bands?!
# Avdiyivka now. Brewing rebellion, residents need to remove the roadblocks from the APU houses. The situation NovorossiaEgoRZemtsoV Jul 29
KomissarBojanchev wrote:[Ukraine's PM Yatsenyuk in 2012: Putin Is Russia's Saviour
Who knew minds could get so retarded so fast...
That's priceless. i do believe he thought he was going to be the next President of Ukraine, maybe, when he sold his soul to the USA, and the EU>
It's just like how he had some extremely hostile views about Crimean Tatar rights...more and more embarrassing 'Ratsinpuke' quotes emerge every few months lol!
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