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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #17

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    Post  Guest on Sat Jul 18, 2015 9:43 pm

    Rodinazombie wrote:Actually, the disagreements we see here on the forum regarding the strategy are most likely a microcosm of what the residents of donetsk are thinking and feeling too. The effect it has on us, will be having the same on them, only greater. Think about that.
    Well said RodinaZombie. Have a +1 for that too, anyone who posts in this topic ought to know this.
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    Post  par far on Sat Jul 18, 2015 9:44 pm

    Flagship Victory wrote:Maidan leader says Russia gave Buk to NAF who shot down MH17 Shocked



    Thing is nothing new, I think Russia needs to release some shocking evidence, showing that it was the US government behind the 9/11 attacks and do it in such fashion, where the world stands and pays attention.
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    Post  sepheronx on Sat Jul 18, 2015 9:44 pm

    Rodinazombie wrote:Actually, the disagreements we see here on the forum regarding the strategy are most likely a microcosm of what the residents of donetsk are thinking and feeling too. The effect it has on us, will be having the same on them, only greater. Think about that.
    Ivan the Colorado wrote:
    Rodinazombie wrote:Actually, the disagreements we see here on the forum regarding the strategy are most likely a microcosm of what the residents of donetsk are thinking and feeling too. The effect it has on us, will be having the same on them, only greater. Think about that.
    Well said RodinaZombie. Have a +1 for that too, anyone who posts in this topic ought to know this.

    So it should be a good example to those on here blindly following the NAF should also understand that if they are going to keep all these secrets away from people, then the people are going to get ideas that there is no plan and they will simply be sheep sent to the slaughter with those artillery strikes, they will revolt. People tend to do this type of stuff.
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    Post  Ghoster on Sat Jul 18, 2015 9:47 pm

    07/18/2015 The shelling of the Kiev district of Donetsk


    According to DAN News, one civilian was killed in center of Donetsk. Shelling was still audible 20 minutes ago.
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    Post  Flagship Victory on Sat Jul 18, 2015 9:48 pm

    Looks like the supermarket was destroyed by today's edition of shelling. No supermarket, no food. People of Donetsk will have to be evacuated to Russia to live.
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    Post  Neutrality on Sat Jul 18, 2015 9:48 pm

    ExBeobachter1987 wrote:What about Shirokino?

    Was apparently discussed just today between Lavrov and Steinmeier. Lavrov pointed out that it was important that Kiev does the same as the NAF did.

    Look. Let's think logical here, without all the doom and gloom panic Rolling Eyes . Why would you assume that Moscow simply folded and decided Kiev should recapture Donbass. Please don't regurgitate the same old crap about "good will" or how corrupt Putin is and that he doesn't care about Donbass. Looking at you mostly Flagship. You keep posting the same old stuff and I will throw you on the ignore list for real this time. You can talk to yourself then.
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    Post  Karl Haushofer on Sat Jul 18, 2015 9:49 pm

    par far wrote:"In case of escalation in Donbas costs for Russia will go up" - Nuland. I don't think these people look at what Russia is doing not to start a war, I say f*** everything and go on the offensive and drive these thugs out. There are going to sanctions and threats no matter what happens. People are being killed and that is not a good for moral and everything else. And one more think I would also like to point that people making threats against Russia are mostly Jewish(call me an anti-Semitic, I don't give a flying f***).

    http://en.interfax.com.ua/news/general/278757.html

    By "escalation" Nuland means that the NAF would actually shoot back while being shelled at. But I guess Nuland will get her will since the NAF is not shooting back, so they are not "escalating" the conflict.
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    Post  sepheronx on Sat Jul 18, 2015 9:50 pm

    Neutrality wrote:
    ExBeobachter1987 wrote:What about Shirokino?

    Was apparently discussed just today between Lavrov and Steinmeier. Lavrov pointed out that it was important that Kiev does the same as the NAF did.

    Look. Let's think logical here, without all the doom and gloom panic Rolling Eyes . Why would you assume that Moscow simply folded and decided Kiev should recapture Donbass. Please don't regurgitate the same old crap about "good will" or how corrupt Putin is and that he doesn't care about Donbass. Looking at you mostly Flagship. You keep posting the same old stuff and I will throw you on the ignore list for real this time. You can talk to yourself then.

    And what did Steinmeier say? Did he go on to demand Ukraine to pull out troops? If not, then it falls on deaf ears and Lavrov should have said "then NAF will be allowed to take more territory unless Ukraine pulls its troops out". But no, that didn't go that way, now did it?

    In response to these artillery strikes, NAF should artillery strike those positions then, I mean, if artillery striking simply falls on deaf ears and everyone tends to ignore them anyway.
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    Post  JohninMK on Sat Jul 18, 2015 9:51 pm

    Having just read the last three pages I'd like to say:

    - since when have <100mm been heavy weapons? I think we can be pretty certain that the >100mm weapons are still in appropriate places and >200mm in even more appropriate places.

    - I agree that what we know of the current withdrawal, bear in mind that we know almost nothing about it and it could be a bluff or part bluff or even trap, looks like a tactical blunder but then we have no sight of the strategic plan, of which there will certainly be one.

    - bear in mind that there are officers (on both sides) who are trying to make their name (within their own organisation) in this war, to set up the rest of their careers. Wars do not come along often, especially ones like this using 'old fashioned' artillery/infantry in a no fly zone and have proved to be excellent career accelerators. This scenario may well be what the next (hope it never happens) war between balanced foes is going to be. Thus the experience gained here will be invaluable. It is therefore very likely that there are some very bright advisers around.

    - one way or another many branches of the Russian military really, really want to get involved. Just imagine the opportunities in intelligence, electronic warfare, special forces etc, and the opponent speaks Russian! This also applies on the other side.

    Finally, modern warfare is not just out there. It is in here, on websites like this, Facebook, Twitter, YouTube etc that the 'break the opponents will to fight' battle is waged. Notice that there is much less 'careless talk costs lives' type traffic on these networks and probably much less phone location opportunities now compared with last year. The war is getting more sophisticated as both sides, and their advisers, learn.

    What we can be absolutely certain of is that this site is targeted as part of that. Which is why some here will not put up information that could be useful to others.
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    Post  auslander on Sat Jul 18, 2015 9:52 pm

    Rodinazombie wrote:
    auslander wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:
    Neutrality wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:If NAF does not fight back after these events, then I give up any full supporting of them.  They have proved to be incompetent and they are allowing their own people to die.  Eventually, the people will see this, the unwillingness of self defence, and will turn on NAF and be willing to be ruled under Kiev's authorities (for peace and security of not going to die from artillery fire).  The ones who did fight back will end up facing persecution and the rest will flee.  Russia will in the end look like fools and traitors.

    NAF is f***ed.  They are getting ass kicked right now and losing territory all in the name of good will.  We know specifically once they pull back, PUkes will move in and we will be back to what we are now, but with PUkes shelling even further in Donetsk/Lugansk and nothing done.

    Yeah, they will just love that. The very people that have killed several thousand of their relatives. Stop the panick already and wait to see what happens.

    You think they will waltz in and ethnic cleanse?  Oh no, it is much easier for them to start pushing the brainwashing even more.  At the expense though, people will take it as it is a hell of a lot better than being worried that an artillery shell will land on you, while your so called compatriots that are supposed to be defending you, are hiding away and moving troops around but doing squat.  I know I would.  I think at this point, NAF has given up and people have fled, hence why no one has heard from Givi or Motorolla or the like.  Now the bombardments have increased and gone even further into Donetsk, and they have done nothing.

    Sorry, you cannot wait on these things.  One has to act or you wont have people left.  Especially people who will support you.  Because lets face it, sitting back and doing nothing for "good will", isn't going to protect you from a 100mm shell landing on you, or a 7.62 round in the head.

    Ya know, son, you can probably count the times I've use off color language on this forum on the fingers of one hand and have a couple digits left over. However, me being a senior NCO when I was serving, and the ONLY reason I'm not up there now is I'm too busted up and old to serve in the front lines with the boys much as I want to, here's a little something for you in language you may understand.

    There's not a fucking thing preventing you from fucking leaving Canukland and highing your lazy ass to Novorissya and joining NAF to fight. Either quit your fucking bitching or get your fucking ass in gear and go fight! If you're so fucking gung ho to fight then fucking go there and fucking fight!

    Methinks I'm going to have to clean this post up in a few mikes but I'm in no mood to put up with keyboard commandos this evening.

    With all the respect in the world, i think that post is out of order.

    You are telling him to go fight, but please tell, who is he going to fight? Because from the outside it looks like NAF are being STOPPED from fighting whilst the ukies do as they please.

    If you want people to fight for you,  why dont you actually let them fight?  its hardly going to encourage them to come if alls you can offer is sitting in a bunker whilst the ukies freely shell the hell out of you.

    Now i tend to be closer to your point of view when it comes to the overall strategy, though I do feel its becoming more questionable as time goes on. But this post was out of order, dropping the f bomb and demanding he go and fight just because he is legimitately questioning the value of withdrawing your weapons and not fighting back, giving up ground to allow the enemy to walk right in is not fair.

    I actually believe there is a value in doing all of those, but the proof is in the pudding, until we see the pudding its more than reasonable that people will question it, especially when we are talking about civilians being killed on a daily basis.

    Post edited and your concerns understood. Time for me to shaddap for a while.
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    Post  ExBeobachter1987 on Sat Jul 18, 2015 9:54 pm

    Neutrality wrote:Was apparently discussed just today between Lavrov and Steinmeier. Lavrov pointed out that it was important that Kiev does the same as the NAF did.

    Unless it has consequences, it is just useless talk.
    Don't trust Steinmeier or anything what he says.
    He does not want to soil his reputation with war, but he is loyal to the Transatlantics in our government and ultimately supports Kiev.
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    Post  sepheronx on Sat Jul 18, 2015 9:55 pm

    JohninMK wrote:Having just read the last three pages I'd like to say:

    - since when have <100mm been heavy weapons? I think we can be pretty certain that the >100mm weapons are still in appropriate places and >200mm in even more appropriate places.

    - I agree that what we know of the current withdrawal, bear in mind that we know almost nothing about it and it could be a bluff or part bluff or even trap, looks like a tactical blunder but then we have no sight of the strategic plan, of which there will certainly be one.

    - bear in mind that there are officers (on both sides) who are trying to make their name (within their own organisation) in this war, to set up the rest of their careers. Wars do not come along often, especially ones like this using 'old fashioned' artillery/infantry in a no fly zone and have proved to be excellent career accelerators. This scenario may well be what the next (hope it never happens) war between balanced foes is going to be. Thus the experience gained here will be invaluable. It is therefore very likely that there are some very bright advisers around.

    - one way or another many branches of the Russian military really, really want to get involved. Just imagine the opportunities in intelligence, electronic warfare, special forces etc, and the opponent speaks Russian! This also applies on the other side.

    Finally, modern warfare is not just out there. It is in here, on websites like this, Facebook, Twitter, YouTube etc that the 'break the opponents will to fight' battle is waged. Notice that there is much less 'careless talk costs lives' type traffic on these networks and probably much less phone location opportunities now compared with last year. The war is getting more sophisticated as both sides, and their advisers, learn.

    What we can be absolutely certain of is that this site is targeted as part of that. Which is why some here will not put up information that could be useful to others.

    I truly (and I am 100% honest here) hope that NAF has a plan and is more than willing to do what is needed. But so far, these proclamations about pulling back and what not, doesn't sound like a plan to me other than withdraw (and since NAF territory is still quite small, that isn't good). As well, I do hope that Givi and Motorolla are still back in the scene even if their units were disbanded/absorbed into th NAF militia.
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    Post  Flagship Victory on Sat Jul 18, 2015 9:56 pm

    Karl Haushofer wrote:By "escalation" Nuland means that the NAF would actually shoot back while being shelled at. But I guess Nuland will get her will since the NAF is not shooting back, so they are not "escalating" the conflict.

    You are too naive. Even if NAF does not shoot back, Nuland will still say NAF did shoot back and slap more sanctions on Russia. dunno
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    Post  par far on Sat Jul 18, 2015 9:56 pm

    Neutrality wrote:
    ExBeobachter1987 wrote:What about Shirokino?

    Was apparently discussed just today between Lavrov and Steinmeier. Lavrov pointed out that it was important that Kiev does the same as the NAF did.

    Look. Let's think logical here, without all the doom and gloom panic Rolling Eyes . Why would you assume that Moscow simply folded and decided Kiev should recapture Donbass. Please don't regurgitate the same old crap about "good will" or how corrupt Putin is and that he doesn't care about Donbass. Looking at you mostly Flagship. You keep posting the same old stuff and I will throw you on the ignore list for real this time. You can talk to yourself then.


    I think by putting someone on the ignore list, you are just admitting defeat.
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    Post  Neutrality on Sat Jul 18, 2015 9:59 pm

    sepheronx wrote:

    And what did Steinmeier say?  Did he go on to demand Ukraine to pull out troops?  If not, then it falls on deaf ears and Lavrov should have said "then NAF will be allowed to take more territory unless Ukraine pulls its troops out".  But no, that didn't go that way, now did it?

    In response to these artillery strikes, NAF should artillery strike those positions then, I mean, if artillery striking simply falls on deaf ears and everyone tends to ignore them anyway.

    RBK didn't say what Steinmeier answered so I have no idea. Regardless of that, I refuse to put on a panic mode.
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    Post  par far on Sat Jul 18, 2015 9:59 pm

    ExBeobachter1987 wrote:
    Neutrality wrote:Was apparently discussed just today between Lavrov and Steinmeier. Lavrov pointed out that it was important that Kiev does the same as the NAF did.

    Unless it has consequences, it is just useless talk.
    Don't trust Steinmeier or anything what he says.
    He does not want to soil his reputation with war, but he is loyal to the Transatlantics in our government and ultimately supports Kiev.



    Steinmeier is just like all the rest of them, just a puppet.
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    Post  sepheronx on Sat Jul 18, 2015 10:00 pm

    Neutrality wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:

    And what did Steinmeier say?  Did he go on to demand Ukraine to pull out troops?  If not, then it falls on deaf ears and Lavrov should have said "then NAF will be allowed to take more territory unless Ukraine pulls its troops out".  But no, that didn't go that way, now did it?

    In response to these artillery strikes, NAF should artillery strike those positions then, I mean, if artillery striking simply falls on deaf ears and everyone tends to ignore them anyway.

    RBK didn't say what Steinmeier answered so I have no idea. Regardless of that, I refuse to put on a panic mode.

    Then it is safe to assume that he had nothing to say, and will continue to say nothing.
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    Post  Flagship Victory on Sat Jul 18, 2015 10:00 pm

    Bear in mind, weapons UNDER 100 mm caliber include small arms like assault rifles and pistols. NAF is now left with nothing but knives and sticks. Terrible.
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    Post  BKP on Sat Jul 18, 2015 10:01 pm

    I don't think there's been a single day in which Ukes haven't been in violation of Minsk 2. We know the Western MSM ignore or misrepresent this and fully expected them to do so. And, of course, they will howl with outrage if NAF go on the the offensive, and put all the blame on them and Putin while screaming about the "Minsk agreement."

    Since it's a given that Novos will be blamed regardless, I'm wondering why they don't go on the offensive. Maybe they still don't have adequate forces to do so? Offense is risky, but maybe the US government's strategy for the Ukes is to never commit to a major thrust again, and just slowly kill everyone and destroy everything from a relatively safe distance. That sounds like something they'd come up with: dirty, ruthless, cowardly, but possibly effective in the long term.

    Obviously, the NAF have a clearer picture of what their situation, capabilities, and limitations than we can ever have. Still, it's extremely frustrating having to watch the side of evil and lies deliberately kill civilians day after day.

    I'm still hoping something will give and there will be positive developments.
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    Post  par far on Sat Jul 18, 2015 10:02 pm

    Flagship Victory wrote:
    Karl Haushofer wrote:By "escalation" Nuland means that the NAF would actually shoot back while being shelled at. But I guess Nuland will get her will since the NAF is not shooting back, so they are not "escalating" the conflict.

    You are too naive. Even if NAF does not shoot back, Nuland will still say NAF did shoot back and slap more sanctions on Russia. dunno



    This is very true, this is how western hypocrisy and propaganda work.
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    Post  Flagship Victory on Sat Jul 18, 2015 10:02 pm

    Judging from today's edition of Maidan shelling on Donetsk, looks like Maidan is using artillery shells of more than 120 mm. Some of those impacts are absolutely ginormous. Shocked


    Last edited by Flagship Victory on Sat Jul 18, 2015 10:03 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Post  Neutrality on Sat Jul 18, 2015 10:03 pm

    Yeah I'm quite certain Flagship, Haushofer and now par far are the one and the same person.
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    Post  Karl Haushofer on Sat Jul 18, 2015 10:03 pm

    I can understand why people want to defend Putin since he is the symbol of Russia's resurgence during the last 15 years. Putin is a cult hero to many people. He is even credited of saving Russia from disintegration.

    I'm sure that many of those who are publicly defending him are having doubts about him but they are afraid to say it out loud.

    For clarification I still don't want Putin to be replaced by a revolution because people who would take power after him would almost certainly be worse than Putin.
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    Post  sepheronx on Sat Jul 18, 2015 10:04 pm

    BKP wrote:I don't think there's been a single day in which Ukes haven't been in violation of Minsk 2. We know the Western MSM ignore or misrepresent this and fully expected them to do so. And, of course, they will howl with outrage if NAF go on the the offensive, and put all the blame on them and Putin while screaming about the "Minsk agreement."

    Since it's a given that Novos will be blamed regardless, I'm wondering why they don't go on the offensive. Maybe they still don't have adequate forces to do so? Offense is risky, but maybe the US government's strategy for the Ukes is to never commit to a major thrust again, and just slowly kill everyone and destroy everything from a relatively safe distance. That sounds like something they'd come up with: dirty, ruthless, cowardly, but possibly effective in the long term.

    Obviously, the NAF have a clearer picture of what their situation, capabilities, and limitations than we can ever have. Still, it's extremely frustrating having to watch the side of evil and lies deliberately kill civilians day after day.

    I'm still hoping something will give and there will be positive developments.

    Only thing now is to strike back with artillery on the PUkes artillery positions.  The west will scream about it but do nothing.  Because then the PUkes will have to leave their hardened positions to go fight, and NAF would destroy them.  So the only thing NAF isn't doing which should be doing, is hitting those artillery positions.

    Karl Haushofer wrote:I can understand why people want to defend Putin since he is the symbol of Russia's resurgence during the last 15 years. Putin is a cult hero to many people. He is even credited of saving Russia from disintegration.

    I'm sure that many of those who are publicly defending him are having doubts about him but they are afraid to say it out loud.

    For clarification I still don't want Putin to be replaced by a revolution because people who would take power after him would almost certainly be worse than Putin.

    Putin did right with Crimea. He did wonders actually. And many love him for that. But his silence and stance on Donetsk is odd, at least for me. Maybe it is easier for him to let PUkes settle it and that they will simply expand the western military district and possibly close borders with Ukraine. I think what it is, if he continued support for NAF, Ukrainians will blame Russia entirely (not all Ukrainians are brainwashed) and thus lose the ethnic unity portion of things for the future. I don't know, just a guess.


    Last edited by sepheronx on Sat Jul 18, 2015 10:07 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Post  Flagship Victory on Sat Jul 18, 2015 10:05 pm

    Neutrality wrote:Yeah I'm quite certain Flagship, Haushofer and now par far are the one and the same person.

    You are quite wrong. pirat I'm Canadian. He's Finnish. Not all Canadian and Finnish hate Russia. But you are pushing that way. cheers

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