The Situation in the Ukraine. #17

sepheronx wrote:

Neutrality wrote:

sepheronx wrote:If NAF does not fight back after these events, then I give up any full supporting of them.  They have proved to be incompetent and they are allowing their own people to die.  Eventually, the people will see this, the unwillingness of self defence, and will turn on NAF and be willing to be ruled under Kiev's authorities (for peace and security of not going to die from artillery fire).  The ones who did fight back will end up facing persecution and the rest will flee.  Russia will in the end look like fools and traitors.

NAF is f***ed.  They are getting ass kicked right now and losing territory all in the name of good will.  We know specifically once they pull back, PUkes will move in and we will be back to what we are now, but with PUkes shelling even further in Donetsk/Lugansk and nothing done.

Yeah, they will just love that. The very people that have killed several thousand of their relatives. Stop the panick already and wait to see what happens.

You think they will waltz in and ethnic cleanse?  Oh no, it is much easier for them to start pushing the brainwashing even more.  At the expense though, people will take it as it is a hell of a lot better than being worried that an artillery shell will land on you, while your so called compatriots that are supposed to be defending you, are hiding away and moving troops around but doing squat.  I know I would.  I think at this point, NAF has given up and people have fled, hence why no one has heard from Givi or Motorolla or the like.  Now the bombardments have increased and gone even further into Donetsk, and they have done nothing.

Sorry, you cannot wait on these things.  One has to act or you wont have people left.  Especially people who will support you.  Because lets face it, sitting back and doing nothing for "good will", isn't going to protect you from a 100mm shell landing on you, or a 7.62 round in the head.

I agree. How good is a government if it can't protect its own citizens? Protecting your own citizens is the number one priority for any normal country.

At this rate, how many more cities will be demilitarized by LPR/DPR leadership, only for Kiev junta to do whatever it wants with them afterwards, with no repercussions? I thought withdrawing weapons under 100mm caliber was stupid enough, but I didn't think they would actually go ahead with that.

Whatever "cunning plan" there is to win this war this way, I'm not seeing it.

Neutrality wrote:

sepheronx wrote:
He is right you know.  IF you know otherwise, please post it.  Because here are the facts so far:

-Donetsk is getting shelled even more
-PUkes are moving closer, and increasing troops
-NAF is being mentally retarded by pulling troops back
-Have not done a thing to stop the artillery strikes even though people demanded it
-Innocent civilians are dying by quite a bit
-Givi and Motorolla vanished
-Minister of taxation in Donetsk arrested in Russia
-No demands from Russian government regarding about the attacks on Novorussia from artillery fire

I have to say, I think he is correct.

I'll report what I said earlier:

I'm going to go ahead and state a crazy thought. I think the NAF are pulling back their manpower and armor from the frontlines not just to "adhere to the Minsk agreements" but to simply bait the VSU into attacking villages around Donetsk and Donetsk itself. That Ukrop infantry assault into Alexandrovka (if indeed true) basically suggests this is the strategy. This gives the NAF 2 advantages: Clearly showing that Kiev is the one who doesn't give a flying fuck about Minsk-II (political advantage) and forcing the VSU out of their fortified positions (strategic advantage).

Molon labe Ukrops.

Wrong, wrong, wrong.

The junta will not attack. It will just move its artillery closer and closer to Donetsk and shell the fuck out of the city.

This will be the consequence of the latest gesture of good will.

It is a fact that Putin ordered NAF to pull back weapons under 100 mm 3 km back, that includes 82 mm mortars, 76 mm SPG-9, RPGs, AK assault rifles, pistols. The only weapons NAF has now are knives. Putin is more concerned about his pockets than for people's lives.

Flagship Victory wrote:It is a fact that Putin ordered NAF to pull back weapons under 100 mm 3 km back, that includes 82 mm mortars, 76 mm SPG-9, RPGs, AK assault rifles, pistols. The only weapons NAF has now are knives. Putin is more concerned about his pockets than for people's lives.

Neutrality wrote:I'm going to go ahead and state a crazy thought. I think the NAF are pulling back their manpower and armor from the frontlines not just to "adhere to the Minsk agreements" but to simply bait the VSU into attacking villages around Donetsk and Donetsk itself. That Ukrop infantry assault into Alexandrovka (if indeed true) basically suggests this is the strategy.

Unless these locations are evacuated, that is a very dirty strategy.
The NAF is supposed to protect people, not let them get killed.

Neutrality wrote:This gives the NAF 2 advantages: Clearly showing that Kiev is the one who doesn't give a flying fuck about Minsk-II (political advantage) and forcing the VSU out of their fortified positions (strategic advantage).

This "political advantage" is worthless.
Everyone who pays even just a bit attention to the conflict knows that Kiev has violated Minsk-II all the time.
The rest does not care.

sepheronx wrote:

Neutrality wrote:

sepheronx wrote:
He is right you know.  IF you know otherwise, please post it.  Because here are the facts so far:

-Donetsk is getting shelled even more
-PUkes are moving closer, and increasing troops
-NAF is being mentally retarded by pulling troops back
-Have not done a thing to stop the artillery strikes even though people demanded it
-Innocent civilians are dying by quite a bit
-Givi and Motorolla vanished
-Minister of taxation in Donetsk arrested in Russia
-No demands from Russian government regarding about the attacks on Novorussia from artillery fire

I have to say, I think he is correct.

I'll report what I said earlier:

I'm going to go ahead and state a crazy thought. I think the NAF are pulling back their manpower and armor from the frontlines not just to "adhere to the Minsk agreements" but to simply bait the VSU into attacking villages around Donetsk and Donetsk itself. That Ukrop infantry assault into Alexandrovka (if indeed true) basically suggests this is the strategy. This gives the NAF 2 advantages: Clearly showing that Kiev is the one who doesn't give a flying fuck about Minsk-II (political advantage) and forcing the VSU out of their fortified positions (strategic advantage).

Molon labe Ukrops.

There isn't and never will be any political advantage over that.  I don't know where you are from, but here in Canada we do not hear a single word about the artillery strikes, and if pointed out this - people shut their ears and go "la la la la" to drown out the noise.  This seems to be quite evident by most european countries and US too.  Winning browny points to people whom don't matter and wont change their own system regardless of protests, is pointless entirely.

As for strategic; well, I don't think so.  Let us see.  But I assume that over time, the civilians are going to get real tired of living day in day out, worried if an artillery shell is going to hit them on their way to work or to school.  If that is the case, then I can only assume that they will revolt at NAF entirely and that would be the end of them.

And no one cares about Canada. Because Canada nor the US are part of the Normandy 4. So whatever Canada thinks or doesn't think, no one gives a flying fuck about that complete retard that you guys call your PM.

auslander wrote:

sepheronx wrote:

Neutrality wrote:

sepheronx wrote:If NAF does not fight back after these events, then I give up any full supporting of them.  They have proved to be incompetent and they are allowing their own people to die.  Eventually, the people will see this, the unwillingness of self defence, and will turn on NAF and be willing to be ruled under Kiev's authorities (for peace and security of not going to die from artillery fire).  The ones who did fight back will end up facing persecution and the rest will flee.  Russia will in the end look like fools and traitors.

NAF is f***ed.  They are getting ass kicked right now and losing territory all in the name of good will.  We know specifically once they pull back, PUkes will move in and we will be back to what we are now, but with PUkes shelling even further in Donetsk/Lugansk and nothing done.

Yeah, they will just love that. The very people that have killed several thousand of their relatives. Stop the panick already and wait to see what happens.

You think they will waltz in and ethnic cleanse?  Oh no, it is much easier for them to start pushing the brainwashing even more.  At the expense though, people will take it as it is a hell of a lot better than being worried that an artillery shell will land on you, while your so called compatriots that are supposed to be defending you, are hiding away and moving troops around but doing squat.  I know I would.  I think at this point, NAF has given up and people have fled, hence why no one has heard from Givi or Motorolla or the like.  Now the bombardments have increased and gone even further into Donetsk, and they have done nothing.

Sorry, you cannot wait on these things.  One has to act or you wont have people left.  Especially people who will support you.  Because lets face it, sitting back and doing nothing for "good will", isn't going to protect you from a 100mm shell landing on you, or a 7.62 round in the head.

Ya know, son, you can probably count the times I've use off color language on this forum on the fingers of one hand and have a couple digits left over. However, me being a senior NCO when I was serving, and the ONLY reason I'm not up there now is I'm too busted up and old to serve in the front lines with the boys much as I want to, here's a little something for you in language you may understand.

There's not a fucking thing preventing you from fucking leaving Canukland and highing your lazy ass to Novorissya and joining NAF to fight. Either quit your fucking bitching or get your fucking ass in gear and go fight! If you're so fucking gung ho to fight then fucking go there and fucking fight!

Methinks I'm going to have to clean this post up in a few mikes but I'm in no mood to put up with keyboard commandos this evening.

With all the respect in the world, i think that post is out of order.

You are telling him to go fight, but please tell, who is he going to fight? Because from the outside it looks like NAF are being STOPPED from fighting whilst the ukies do as they please.

If you want people to fight for you,  why dont you actually let them fight?  its hardly going to encourage them to come if alls you can offer is sitting in a bunker whilst the ukies freely shell the hell out of you.

Now i tend to be closer to your point of view when it comes to the overall strategy, though I do feel its becoming more questionable as time goes on. But this post was out of order, dropping the f bomb and demanding he go and fight just because he is legimitately questioning the value of withdrawing your weapons and not fighting back, giving up ground to allow the enemy to walk right in is not fair.

I actually believe there is a value in doing all of those, but the proof is in the pudding, until we see the pudding its more than reasonable that people will question it, especially when we are talking about civilians being killed on a daily basis.

Well, it was good while it lasted. I no longer support NAF unless they man up and fight. Adios

sepheronx wrote:

Neutrality wrote:

sepheronx wrote:If NAF does not fight back after these events, then I give up any full supporting of them.  They have proved to be incompetent and they are allowing their own people to die.  Eventually, the people will see this, the unwillingness of self defence, and will turn on NAF and be willing to be ruled under Kiev's authorities (for peace and security of not going to die from artillery fire).  The ones who did fight back will end up facing persecution and the rest will flee.  Russia will in the end look like fools and traitors.

NAF is f***ed.  They are getting ass kicked right now and losing territory all in the name of good will.  We know specifically once they pull back, PUkes will move in and we will be back to what we are now, but with PUkes shelling even further in Donetsk/Lugansk and nothing done.

Yeah, they will just love that. The very people that have killed several thousand of their relatives. Stop the panick already and wait to see what happens.

You think they will waltz in and ethnic cleanse?  Oh no, it is much easier for them to start pushing the brainwashing even more.  At the expense though, people will take it as it is a hell of a lot better than being worried that an artillery shell will land on you, while your so called compatriots that are supposed to be defending you, are hiding away and moving troops around but doing squat.  I know I would.  I think at this point, NAF has given up and people have fled, hence why no one has heard from Givi or Motorolla or the like.  Now the bombardments have increased and gone even further into Donetsk, and they have done nothing.

Sorry, you cannot wait on these things.  One has to act or you wont have people left.  Especially people who will support you.  Because lets face it, sitting back and doing nothing for "good will", isn't going to protect you from a 100mm shell landing on you, or a 7.62 round in the head.

I'm sure Givi and Motorola are dying to post their GPS coordinates on Facebook

Neutrality wrote:

Flagship Victory wrote:

Rodinazombie wrote:https://vk.com/wall-57424472_67204

Few pics from the latest shelling

I feel for the people of Donetsk. This is not a city to live. Daily shelling by fascists. The city is sacrificed so Putin can keep selling natural gas to the EU. Capitalism these days. What can you do about it?  Money tramps people.

Honestly.

Shut
The
Fuck
Up

Already.

Put him on ignore list, man. It's called foe list here...

ExBeobachter1987 wrote:

Neutrality wrote:I'm going to go ahead and state a crazy thought. I think the NAF are pulling back their manpower and armor from the frontlines not just to "adhere to the Minsk agreements" but to simply bait the VSU into attacking villages around Donetsk and Donetsk itself. That Ukrop infantry assault into Alexandrovka (if indeed true) basically suggests this is the strategy.

Unless these locations are evacuated, that is a very dirty strategy.
The NAF is supposed to protect people, not let them get killed.

Neutrality wrote:This gives the NAF 2 advantages: Clearly showing that Kiev is the one who doesn't give a flying fuck about Minsk-II (political advantage) and forcing the VSU out of their fortified positions (strategic advantage).

This "political advantage" is worthless.
Everyone who pays even just a bit attention to the conflict knows that Kiev has violated Minsk-II all the time.
The rest does not care.

Evacuation is precisely what the NAF have been doing this past week. Some decided to stay and I'm sure many have been adequatelly warned about the dangers of staying close to the frontlines.

Kiev has violated the Minsk II agreements by shelling. They haven't made any assault yet which would be a political blunder on their part since it would be extremely hard for the OSCE to deny this.

sepheronx wrote:
 I don't know where you are from, but here in Canada we do not hear a single word about the artillery strikes, and if pointed out this - people shut their ears and go "la la la la" to drown out the noise.  This seems to be quite evident by most european countries and US too.  Winning browny points to people whom don't matter and wont change their own system regardless of protests, is pointless entirely.

Same here in Finland. Our media is completely silent about the daily artillery strikes to Donetsk, Gorlovka and other cities. They only mention the war nowadays if Ukrainian side loses soldiers and blame Russia for breaking the Minsk agreement.

There is zero advantage for the NAF trying to show the world that they are playing by the rules. They have the whole "international community" against them and they should not even expect fair treatment from the "international community". They will not get it. Their only task should be winning the war with all means possible. Nothing else.

"In case of escalation in Donbas costs for Russia will go up" - Nuland. I don't think these people look at what Russia is doing not to start a war, I say f*** everything and go on the offensive and drive these thugs out. There are going to sanctions and threats no matter what happens. People are being killed and that is not a good for moral and everything else. And one more think I would also like to point that people making threats against Russia are mostly Jewish(call me an anti-Semitic, I don't give a flying f***).

http://en.interfax.com.ua/news/general/278757.html

Maidan leader says Russia gave Buk to NAF who shot down MH17

PapaDragon wrote:I'm sure Givi and Motorola are dying to post their GPS coordinates on Facebook  

Wasn't Givi's unit dissolved recently? He should not be worried about that.
At this point they have a greater value as inofficial spokesmen of the NAF than as fighters.

Actually, the disagreements we see here on the forum regarding the strategy are most likely a microcosm of what the residents of donetsk are thinking and feeling too. The effect it has on us, will be having the same on them, only greater. Think about that.

sepheronx wrote:
So then who would it win political advantage over?  Whom will care?

Members of the Normandy 4? Like Germany and France? I understand the biasness of Merkel and Hollande but even THEY can't deny certain things nor act like they are blind and deaf.

Neutrality wrote:Evacuation is precisely what the NAF have been doing this past week. Some decided to stay and I'm sure many have been adequatelly warned about the dangers of staying close to the frontlines.

Last time I checked the evacuation was incomplete.

Neutrality wrote:Kiev has violated the Minsk II agreements by shelling. They haven't made any assault yet which would be a political blunder on their part since it would be extremely hard for the OSCE to deny this.

What about Shirokino?