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    AK-12 Rifle Discussion

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    ALAMO


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    AK-12 Rifle Discussion - Page 32 Empty Re: AK-12 Rifle Discussion

    Post  ALAMO Tue May 30, 2023 8:55 pm

    3 round burst was never an issue, it is carried for the last 70 years Laughing
    This two round mode was a new feature, assisted by a compensation subsystem.
    I have never shot any of the Abakan project guns, so can't have any thoughts about that.

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    Mir
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    Post  Mir Tue May 30, 2023 9:08 pm

    I have seen video footage of the Abakan. The low recoil in full auto or burst was quite impressive but the gun was too expensive for the Russians.
    But the AK-107did pretty much the same...for a lot less.
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Wed May 31, 2023 7:15 am

    I don't really understand the use of the iconic selector switch in the Mod 2023 version as it doesn't seem to have any selector function except perhaps keeping out some dust and debris? They do mention a "curtain" - but why not just extend the top cover?

    When the rifle is on safe it acts as a dust cover, but when firing that slot that it closes needs to be kept open to allow the cocking handle to reciprocate.

    If you fill the slot with an extended top cover you would need to modify the cocking handle and how it works which is quite a change for aesthetics.

    I personally liked the way the SLR system worked but in an emergency I suspect your average Russian will reach to the right hand side and expect a cocking handle that is fixed to the bolt carrier so you would need an amazing reason to really change that.

    The ADS has a cocking handle that can flip left or right and sticks straight ahead when not in use which I think it clever but have never actually tried it myself.

    They should honestly just adopt a version of the AK tht has the shturmgewere style upper lower receiver arrangement with the upper rail being a thick piece of machined aluminium bolted and pinned directly to the trunnion

    A rather radical change considering the length of the receiver. The old side latch mount for older scopes worked fine... an enlarged version of that moved to the top of the receiver instead of just beside running the full length of the receiver should make it work just fine for any existing AK with the part in front  of the top cover all in rails too.

    Some sort of bridge connection to the front and top rail to make it more solid shouldn't be too hard.

    The whole top cover rail idea was always deeply flawed and will never be as accurate as a rigid, non removable machined arrangement. If they really have to keep the traditional Russian style top cover then they should move back to side rails and milled receivers.

    These are assault rifles firing assault rifle cartridges which means if you can hit targets out beyond 400m then good for you but the likely damage is going to be equivalent to getting hit by 22 rim fire ammo most of the time.

    Soldiers shouldn't be aiming for head shots at 600m, a torso hit out to 400m is far beyond what they will be needing most of the time.

    If you have guys that want to hit further then give them the SVD or it new replacement.

    Most guys wont even see targets at that distance, and if they do then that is what SVDs and PKMs and RPKs are in the unit for.

    I can only guess that double shot sequence was a spinn off from Abakan project?

    The idea of a rapid burst of a few rounds, whether it is two or three shots has been a popular thing, but from what I have read is that one of the main reasons US soldiers like the shorter M4 carbine over the M16 rifle of the newer types is because the M4 has single fire and full auto options while the newer M16 has single shot and three round burst options.

    Obviously the M4 is also more compact and lighter too, but it sounded like a lot of soldiers preferred the smaller lighter rifle because it was full auto capable.

    2 round was essential to the Abakan, and the whole mechanism of balancing exhaust gases to minimize recoil of the second round.
    As finally new models haven't received the feature, and the demand by MoD aged longer - they have finally cancel that. This is my understanding of things.

    The Abakan had a recoiling barrel and the two shots were fired during one recoil impulse to try to get them on the same trajectory... they were never going to go through the same hole in a flak jacket or anything, but the second shot was supposed to land within a 80 or 90 mm if the first round so a moving target the second shot would increase the chance of getting at least one hit and for a still target you increase your lethality by putting two holes into them instead of one.

    The much lower rate of fire of the AK-12 would mean it probably wouldn't work so well though the very low recoil of the round could allow both rounds to be on target, it seems the added complication to make it work... some sort of two position ratchet system, wasn't worth the effort.

    I seem to remember on the M16 there was a ratchet mechanism that counted the shots so if you fired off most of your ammo and had one round in your rifle it would fire the one round but the second round would be an empty chamber, so replacing the mag  when you pulled the trigger expecting a three round burst only one shot would fire to reset the ratchet again.

    It was tricky to work out how many would fire... a distraction... perhaps a reset when you removed the mag maybe... I don't know...

    The burst fire options is nice to have on paper but it is apparent that it comes with some reliability issues. Not so nice when you're under fire!

    I do remember when the British soldiers finally got to test the worlds best assault rifle in the desert (it was going to shine because the long barrel gave it excellent accuracy and performance over flat open terrain) and they found that it was actually more reliable on full auto than on single shot... which I thought was a bit ironic.

    But the AK-107did pretty much the same...for a lot less.

    The balanced recoil mechanism is probably more complex than most soldiers are wanting in a rifle, most soldiers probably just want single shot and full auto and they can train to get the bursts they need...

    The complication needed to get a two round burst will come at a cost in weight and price and complication, so if it isn't being used then it is a good thing to get rid of it.

    With the Abakan the first two rounds were fired at about 1,800 rpm but the third and later shots in a full auto burst were at 600rpm.

    With proper training and supported holding of the rifle even in full auto the rifle does not appear to jump all over the place anyway.

    Most accurate is always going to be single shot and its low recoil means you can observe the effect and follow up with further shots to finish off the target or to correct to get hits.

    I could see a three round burst being useful for a light machine gun, but their new light machine gun doesn't even seem to have a single shot option.

    The KORD assault rifle seems to have a burst fire option too, I wonder if upgrades will keep that feature or not.

    It does use a balanced recoil mechanism... I wonder how it compares with its higher rate of fire (900rpm)... getting a 2 to 3 round burst with a full auto trigger on an AK-12 might be easy, whereas with the Kord 5.45 it might be firing too many rounds in a burst so a burst mode for firing 3 rounds only might make more sense.
    Mir
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    Post  Mir Wed May 31, 2023 10:21 am

    GarryB wrote:When the rifle is on safe it acts as a dust cover, but when firing that slot that it closes needs to be kept open to allow the cocking handle to reciprocate.
    If you fill the slot with an extended top cover you would need to modify the cocking handle and how it works which is quite a change for aesthetics.

    Yes I only meant for the cover to be extended as far as the cocking handle can go backwards and not all the way to the front of the receiver.

    Till about where the red mark is - then you can probably discard the old selector switch in doing so?

    AK-12 Rifle Discussion - Page 32 Ak-ope10

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    Post  Regular Wed May 31, 2023 11:56 am

    Mir wrote:The burst fire options is nice to have on paper but it is apparent that it comes with some reliability issues. Not so nice when you're under fire!  Laughing


    The problem wasn’t as much as reliability itself, but the way 3 round burst mechanism affecting the control of a trigger. Also, it’s redundant fire mode. Good for controlling panicking grunts mowing down the jungle in Vietnam, but in todays reality, soldiers either control their automatic fire themselves or use single fire. 

    Also, this new AK-12 looks very good. Finalised diopter, buttstock. I wish it would have longer handguard like AK-12SPK or chinese NUR AK. I bet trigger now feels like heaven (100 series is well known for competition like triggers) and production quality was increased (It is said on Kalashnikov website that manufacturing techniques were improved) Took them a while, literally needed a war and moaning soldiers, I guess nothing good happens during the peace time as nothing is actually tested under so much stress. Driving a cars over it, having soldiers step on it or shooting thousands of rounds in testing chambers is paper statistics, hence why I would still take AK-74 over any fancy new rifle.

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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Wed May 31, 2023 2:08 pm

    Till about where the red mark is - then you can probably discard the old selector switch in doing so?

    They essentially did that on the original AK-12...

    AK-12 Rifle Discussion - Page 32 Ak12ra10

    Looking a that image now I can see a slot coming to the rear of the ejection port so really it is just shifting the problem.

    There was an early version that allowed the cocking handle to be flipped over from left side to right side meaning an ejection port on both sides and presuambly the same slot for the recoiling cocking handle too.

    Being able to determine the side for the cocking handle appealed to me, though of course in practise you would set it the side you want it and probably never shift it again.

    It is amusing that Russian soldiers get a very reliable family of weapons to choose from and even the worst option is more reliable than many western rifles... we had problems with our Aussie made Steyrs and of course the problems with the M16 and SA-80 are legendary.

    Edit: Ahh, here it is...

    AK-12 Rifle Discussion - Page 32 Ak1210

    So the cocking handle is forward where the rear sight block would be on standard AKs and I believe in this image has been turned to the other side, so the slot for the cocking handle goes forward of the ejection port rather than back from it.
    Mir
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    Post  Mir Thu Jun 01, 2023 9:04 am

    Apologies to Kalash but perhaps something like this?
    (patent pending Laughing )

    AK-12 Rifle Discussion - Page 32 Ak12m210

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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Thu Jun 01, 2023 9:19 am

    I remember looking through a Kalashnikov book on Kalashnikovs and it included a lot of early prototypes and it is amazing the options they went through including a version that was in two halves like the FN FAL with an upper and a lower that made a lot more sense than the M16 version because like the FN FAL the magazine well was part of the upper so you could have any calibre upper you wanted with different magazine dimensions that come with the different calibre barrel.

    I seem to remember it even had the cocking handle on the left hand side and it had controls that were easy reach... but it was probably a bit more expensive to make and the design they chose could be and was cranked out in enormous numbers and was good enough.
    Kiko
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    Post  Kiko Sun Aug 13, 2023 8:11 pm

    Russia's Kalashnikov Designs Short Version of AK-19 Rifle for NATO Cartridge, 08.13.2023.

    KUBINKA, Moscow Region (Sputnik) - Russian defense manufacturer Kalashnikov has developed a shortened version of the AK-19 assault rifle chambered for NATO cartridges, a Sputnik correspondent reported on Sunday.

    The compact version is presented at the company's expo center. It can fire 5.56×45mm rounds, which are adopted as a standard cartridge for rifle weapons in NATO countries.

    Kalashnikov designed AK-19, an export variant of the AK-12 assault rifle, which fires NATO cartridges in 2020. In 2021, Russia signed first export contracts for the supplies of these rifles. Last year, the weapon was put into series production.

    The new design was unveiled at the ARMY-2023 forum, with the main event scheduled to open on Monday, August 14 and last until August 20.

    https://sputnikglobe.com/20230813/russias-kalashnikov-designs-short-version-of-ak-19-rifle-for-nato-cartridge-1112566300.html

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    George1
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    Post  George1 Sat Nov 11, 2023 3:01 pm

    Concern "Kalashnikov" fulfilled a 3-year contract for the supply of AK-12 assault rifles to the Ministry of Defense.

    https://bmpd.livejournal.com/4768860.html

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    galicije83
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    Post  galicije83 Sat Nov 11, 2023 8:05 pm

    AK-12 Rifle Discussion - Page 32 17m2
    I do not know why they still made this gun, out dated and with lot of problems...onstead they move to modern version of the AK platform like they made this concept rifle called AM17M
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Sun Nov 12, 2023 6:19 am

    As a rifle there is not much wrong with the Ak-74 series of rifles... they had latch mounts for scopes before western mounting systems were invented and can easily be added with third party stuff bolted on.

    The most important feature of a rifle is that it works, and many modern western rifles don't always work, and many have not worked for a very long time, but that has been hidden by the fact that many never went to a real war and were challenged by harsh conditions for long periods.

    The SA-80 was fantastic on the firing range, but in Iraq it was a dog. The M16 was great until it went to war too and they have been trying to fix it ever since.

    Based on their other projects... tanks, fighter planes, etc the first step is to take Soviet equipment and improve it as far as possible with upgrades and improvements, while in the background another company is working hard on a from scratch new design that eliminates all the problems of existing equipment and might introduce new technologies or ways of doing things.

    The T-72 got an upgrade, the T-90 got an upgrade but in the background the T-14 was developed.

    The Su-27 got upgraded to the Su-27SM and the Su-35 was put into service but in the background the Su-57 was developed.

    The MiG-29 got an SMT upgrade, the MiG-29K was introduced to the Navy and the MiG-35 was produced in tiny numbers, but we haven't seen MiGs new generation fighter except in model form in a single engined fighter and a twin engined light carrier based fighter.

    Right now the AK-12 is doing the job and allowing optics and other to be fitted and removed easily enough... what is coming next might be revealed with the Ratnik III which is supposed to be shown in 2025... which is not that far away.

    There are other rifles being offered but most appear to be evolutions of rifles that were tested against AKs previously and failed to get the job.

    They will keep working on their rifles of course but they would need to be substantially better than the AK to justify setting up mass production... which is a steep task.

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    galicije83
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    Post  galicije83 Sun Nov 12, 2023 12:14 pm

    GarryB wrote:As a rifle there is not much wrong with the Ak-74 series of rifles... they had latch mounts for scopes before western mounting systems were invented and can easily be added with third party stuff bolted on.
    With do respect it was in past, now in 21 st century they far behind west in many things about rifles and staff they put on it.


    The most important feature of a rifle is that it works, and many modern western rifles don't always work, and many have not worked for a very long time, but that has been hidden by the fact that many never went to a real war and were challenged by harsh conditions for long periods.

    This isnt truth 100%. In every story we have 2 side of coin...Harsh conditions, any rifle will stop to work if you don not clean it properly...AK 47 isnt batter or worst then M16/4 in the same conditions..in some its worst because of its construction in other is batter.. We always will have +/- on any rifle...

    The SA-80 was fantastic on the firing range, but in Iraq it was a dog. The M16 was great until it went to war too and they have been trying to fix it ever since.

    M16 is good rifle, today she is batter then she was in past and she is fixed...ergonomic best rifle made in last 80 years+...

    Right now the AK-12 is doing the job and allowing optics and other to be fitted and removed easily enough... what is coming next might be revealed with the Ratnik III which is supposed to be shown in 2025... which is not that far away.

    Can retain zero...we se on TG russian SpN units still use their AK-74 with zenitco modules...AK12 have lot off problems and they talk about them +/- on rifle...one of the stupidest thing they made on AK 15 because Shoigu wants is two shot burst...come on...

    There are other rifles being offered but most appear to be evolutions of rifles that were tested against AKs previously and failed to get the job.

    And all of them was and still are more expensive then this AK-12. Instead they go with Ak-74 with is grat gun and put Zenitco stuff on it, tehy made AK-12 from AK-400 model. To be cheap to make it...

    They will keep working on their rifles of course but they would need to be substantially better than the AK to justify setting up mass production... which is a steep task.

    They made it in AM-17M, but this rifle was to expensive for them as it was AEK and still is...as it was ARENA M active system on tanks, i can go all they to list things they never made because they were too expensive for milliatry...they stole fking 1.5 million uniforms (even worst they never made it but they have it on paper)...its Russia in their best...in Stalin time many of them will be shot because of thing they do..
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Mon Nov 13, 2023 5:00 am

    With do respect it was in past, now in 21 st century they far behind west in many things about rifles and staff they put on it.

    Like what?

    You can clip on a 40mm grenade launcher or a bayonette. The AK-12 has mounts for fitting all sorts of scopes and grips and lights and suppressors no problem at all.

    The rifle itself is made of modern synthetic resins that are not brittle or crack... or melt on contact with insect repellant like the SA-80 did.

    What you want from a rifle is that it is not too heavy, it is not too long, and it fires when you pull the trigger... it can mount all the different sights you might want and is rather more reliable than most western weapons.

    There are stupid videos where they fill them with mud and they fail but anyone stupid enough to allow their weapon get into that state and expect it to fire is a moron.

    Videos of them getting rained on and then put into a freezer at minus 30 degrees C and then take them out and load them and fire them and they work.

    That is realistic because in some places it gets cold.

    This isnt truth 100%. In every story we have 2 side of coin...Harsh conditions, any rifle will stop to work if you don not clean it properly...AK 47 isnt batter or worst then M16/4 in the same conditions..in some its worst because of its construction in other is batter.. We always will have +/- on any rifle...

    That is not true. The M-16 and a few other western rifles fail in dusty conditions because of the way they are designed. The AKs are designed to still operate when frozen or with dust in them.

    Obviously you can't pack dirt into them and expect them to fire but the sort of level of dust that gets into rifles in places like Afghanistan and Iraq didn't cause problems for the AKs like it did for western rifles of all different types.

    M16 is good rifle, today she is batter then she was in past and she is fixed...ergonomic best rifle made in last 80 years+...

    The M16 is not one rifle, there are plenty of different variants and many have problems with reliability way beyond what people who us AKs have.

    A large part of the M16s unreliability is their cheap shitty magazines... damage the lips and they will misfeed and cause all sorts of problems.

    The feed lips on an AK mag are 5-6mm thick... you can use them to open beer bottles with no problems.


    Can retain zero...we se on TG russian SpN units still use their AK-74 with zenitco modules..

    And are they really SpN or just bullshitting? Wouldn't trust things being said on TG about very much at all.


    And all of them was and still are more expensive then this AK-12.

    It is not just that they are more complex and expensive, it is that you would need to tool new factories to make the different rifles which means the difference in changing to a new rifle design would be much much more expensive... so of course you are not going to change to a different rifle because it feels better or because it is 2% more accurate at 300m.

    Personally I like the ADS, I think it looks cool and it solves the empty shell case ejection to the face problem most other bullpups have...

    they stole fking 1.5 million uniforms (even worst they never made it but they have it on paper)...its Russia in their best...in Stalin time many of them will be shot because of thing they do..

    Yeah, only corruption in Russia... completely unheard of in the west... how much does the west pay for tanks getting smashed in Ukraine? But it is OK that they cost more because they will kill 20 Russian tanks for every one of them destroyed right?

    If there is corruption they will find it and they will deal with it.

    In comparison the US Pentagon lost about 40 billion dollars and decided not to try to find out where it went... they didn't care.... because 40 billion is peanuts compared to the money the US MIC steals every year.


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