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    AK-12 Rifle Discussion

    lancelot
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    Post  lancelot Fri Apr 22, 2022 3:00 am

    There is just one problem with this video. Since you cannot import the AK-12 to the US they are basing their analysis on what they can glimmer from available data and their own AK-12 replica. Now, that is a replica, not the actual thing.

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    Post  par far Fri Apr 22, 2022 4:10 am

    lancelot wrote:There is just one problem with this video. Since you cannot import the AK-12 to the US they are basing their analysis on what they can glimmer from available data and their own AK-12 replica. Now, that is a replica, not the actual thing.


    This was my first thought as well.

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    teh_beard
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    Post  teh_beard Fri Apr 22, 2022 9:45 am

    I`m in the market for an new AK right now, so I`m following the developments with AK-12 closely. Not chromed gasblocks are telling of course, but some of the reviewers shown actual TR3 (civilian SA AK-12) that got in their countries before all trade connections were gone. I, and Russian civilian shooters who got their hand on genuine things, have quite a few criticisms on the design too. So, my own list, with possible solutions:

    1. Handguard. It is indeed thin, flimsy and would not realistically hold zero. Clearly it was done to fit in a weight requirement set by MOD, and no other reason.
    Solution: Zenitco aluminium handguards, they pressure fits into trunnion and absolutely solid. There are several to choose from too - from heavier with lot of Picatinni rails to completely slimmed down with only one on top with rest of surfaces covered with Basis interface points (Zenitco own proprietary analog to M-LOK)

    2. Stock. Initial is lame, with AR-stile tube of proprietary dimensions, which are not Milspec, nor Commercial...
    Solution: fixed in new iteration of AK-12, where stock is may look like Magpul Zhukov, but way more solid. QD sling holes still of proprietary design though. Or could be easily swapped for Zenitco stuff - PT-1, of PT-3

    3. Fire selector and trigger. Those who tried military ones report that 2-round burst introduced M16A2-like mushiness in it, and addition one more selection to the AK safety did not help ergonomics, since its now 4 positions separated by fewer degrees of selector lever travel. In general, idea of substitution of training with tech is a poor one, but we civilian shooter do not have to contend with it. Our obviously semi-auto TR3s still have that OKish standart AK trigger feel. And only two positions. About lower position stop and lever being pushed past it in stress - that a new info from this war. Not nice, what else to say, especially because it blocks access to trigger that way too...
    Solution: I expect 2-round burst being dropped in gen.3 AK-12s and lever stop enhanced to fix the last issue

    Dust cover zero holding capability remains to be tested. While its inherently inferior to upper-lower solution, it has history of doing its job done by many - FAB Defence, Zentico.. Initial reports show that KK solution is recommends itself solid so far.
    But anyway, with current levels of KK greed: https://kalashnikov.market/product/0000001378K0000071/tr3-5-45x39-415-mm-priklad-ak-evo - 93k RUB vs 78k RUB that was TR3 gen.1, for no discernable reason other then KK CEO REALLY needing new Bentley in this trying times when it has to smuggled in Russia via third countries, I think I`ll stick with good ol` Saiga-MK rev.33 - shorty based on AK-104/105 for 52k RUB. Until they release short TR3 with further fixes, which will not happen any time soon, as its military counterpart AK-12K is developed by KK at its own initiative and not by request of MOD or MoIA, where all the contract meat lies.

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    Post  Regular Tue Apr 26, 2022 3:20 pm

    teh_beard wrote:I`m in the market for an new AK right now, so I`m following the developments with AK-12 closely. Not chromed gasblocks are telling of course, but some of the reviewers shown actual TR3 (civilian SA AK-12) that got in their countries before all trade connections were gone. I, and Russian civilian shooters who got their hand on genuine things, have quite a few criticisms on the design too. So, my own list, with possible solutions:


    Thanks for interesting post.

    Yes, it seems Kalashnikov is greedy now, there's no excuse why TR3 it's so expensive for what it is. No love for AK-12. Ak-105 with zenetco prichindals would be my choice.

    Would you be interested in AKV-521 if they would release it?

    Or KSO-18?
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    Post  teh_beard Tue Apr 26, 2022 4:15 pm

    Regular wrote:Thanks for interesting post.

    Yes, it seems Kalashnikov is greedy now, there's no excuse why TR3 it's so expensive for what it is. No love for AK-12. Ak-105 with zenetco prichindals would be my choice.

    Would you be interested in AKV-521 if they would release it?

    Or KSO-18?
    AKV is nice in theory, with its proper upper-lower design, but since receiver was split, it necessitated reinforcements of both halves to esure its rigidity. It weights same as PRK one.
    And I`m, in my just thirties already have busted back from all the sport-related things I`ve done, so I really count every gram now. Shorter rifles, pencil-thin handguards, titanium supressors, plate carriers with StKSS... Rev.33 I`ll take in 7.62 - I really want to experiment how subsonic Tula ammo gonna go with with shorter cans from AlfaArms or my neighbours Hexagon.

    About KSO-18 - I know it exist, now, after your post!
    Won`t take off, in my opinion. Too expensive, too gimmicky for what it has to offer, just like its military counterpart.

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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Wed Apr 27, 2022 12:47 pm

    The purpose of the AK-12 was not to revolutionise assault rifles everywhere and make all western rifles redundant or inadequate.

    The AK-12 is like the T-90AM or the Su-35... you take the existing product (AK-74, T-90, Su-27) and then upgrade and modify it to fix any perceived or real problems as far as possible and also make it easier to use with new equipment... in the case of T-90AM and Su-35s that means upgraded navigation and communications and net centric equipment so you can pass target data to other platforms and also receive target data from other platforms too to make the platform a more effective weapon.

    For the AK-12 it needed to allow various bits and bobs to be attached, like night vision scopes and red dot sights so they can be used together along with underbarrel grenade launchers and rifle grenades as well.

    We haven't really seen any rifle grenades of course so we don't know what they have developed in that regard, but then the under barrel grenade launcher seems to be changed too but little info is available about that at the moment.

    Ratnik III is supposed to be deployed 2025 and may include new fire arms that have been promised with new functional principles and possibly new calibres and materials.

    In terms of the basics the AK-12 adds the ability to easily add optics including various scopes together like a red dot sight and night vision optics or just iron sights.

    Which is all they really need for an AK-74 temporary replacement for Ratnik I and II.

    It has an adjustable butt stock so it can be used easily by different sized people wearing or not wearing body armour.

    Otherwise it should just shoot which is seems to do.

    With an American Youtube video it is tough to verify where they got the rifle and what ammo they were using, so any findings or performance would be difficult to gauge.

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    Post  Regular Sat Apr 30, 2022 6:33 am

    Yes, those kits westerners are using require some fabrication and are based on Bulgarian AKs. But then again, Russian weapon bloggers who had real deal (both civilian and military) have bad things to say as well.

    In this case, mostly about shitty M4 style stock, and flimsy plastics and it's not even news. The Military also complained about some issues and I don't know how they managed to bend the guns and were shouting at Kalashnikov about the corrosion.  

    Kalashnikov already showed an updated version of this that fixes most ergonomic problems.
    AK-12 Rifle Discussion - Page 31 Image51
    AK-12 Rifle Discussion - Page 31 Image52


    I still think Zenitco did it better. IMHO, Kalashnikov needs to make base rifles and let these guys do all the modding.

    AK-12 Rifle Discussion - Page 31 Image53
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=okmvdQ5QOQk

    Especially now when exports are out of the window companies like Zenitco also need some orders. There is no need to reinvent the wheel, Zentico stuff is loved and used by Russian SF and army and Russians love long handguards for C-clamp grip. Or Kalashnikov can maybe purchase them and integrate in their weapons, I am biased here, but Zenitco stuff is absolutely Godly.


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    Post  Cyrus the great Tue May 03, 2022 11:57 pm

    The AKV-521 seems really promising and (imo) should have replaced the AK-74M; the mounting station is 100% solid and should have no issues with maintaining zero.

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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Wed May 04, 2022 7:34 am

    The core problem of course is we only know about stuff that has been shown and revealed.

    They have mentioned new weapons... new family weapons that operate with new principles... whatever that means.

    There are exotic technologies like caseless and plastic cased ammo, new calibres, new propellent ideas.

    The AK-74 stayed in service because it works and is relatively cheap to make and simple to use and keep working.

    I suspect new weapons will be revealed over the next 2-3 years...
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    Post  Regular Thu May 05, 2022 3:20 am

    GarryB wrote:The core problem of course is we only know about stuff that has been shown and revealed.

    They have mentioned new weapons... new family weapons that operate with new principles... whatever that means.

    There are exotic technologies like caseless and plastic cased ammo, new calibres, new propellent ideas.

    The AK-74 stayed in service because it works and is relatively cheap to make and simple to use and keep working.

    I suspect new weapons will be revealed over the next 2-3 years...

    If Americans will flip flop (most likely) with their new calibre then I don't see any new weapons emerging.

    AK-12 is not bad weapon, furniture can be replaced anytime if needed. Russia will get plenty of feedback from Ukraine and experience there will be deciding factor
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    Post  GarryB Thu May 05, 2022 6:51 am

    The core issue is that the calibre that needs to be replaced is the 7.62x54mm R round... the 6x49mm round they were developing was supposed to replace the Machine gun and Sniper cartridge of the Russian military to extend effective range to about 1.2km with less recoil and a smaller lighter round that would fit ammo belts and box magazines better.

    The higher muzzle velocity and rather more efficient bullet design means it gets to the target faster with more energy and with less flight deviation, making it more accurate and more effective on target.... but it is not an assault rifle cartridge... the 5.45mm seems to be effective enough as it is.

    An optimised drum feed that was reliable and quiet and not expensive to make would be interesting... there was a 95 round drum being designed for the RPK-16 or something... but their new LMGs seem to be belt fed because belt feed ammo is lighter and easier to carry.

    Russia started a process to upgrade all its equipment and weapons to be new... having a cartridge from the 19th century wont make sense even if it still gets the job done.... the original PK and AK-74 get the job done but the PKP and AK-12 are in service and will be continually upgraded over time with experience.

    They dedicated quite a bit of work to develop the 6x49mm replacement for the full power round, but ironically they might decide instead of going smaller to go bigger and perhaps go for a 9mm version of one of their Lapua Magnum rounds they are using for sniping... a shared round for the machine gun role, for sniping and for the designated marksman role within a combat platoon of motor rifle troops would be interesting.

    In its sniper round form it would be far too expensive to use in the MG role but a round for coaxial machine gun roles would be interesting for targets to 1.5km or further out...

    Man portable machine guns might go small calibre to make them and their ammo lighter, which for coaxial and vehicle mounts is not so important.

    They also have the question of pistol and SMG ammo... do they continue to use the HATO round considering it is almost as old as the 7.62x54mm R cartridge too.

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    The-thing-next-door
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    Post  The-thing-next-door Thu May 12, 2022 7:28 pm

    I have just been looking at the new pindostanski rifle, in my opinion all they have really achieved is the loss of full auto viability.

    I find it unlikely that typical soldiers will hit anything beyond the range of the 5.45 with any consistency.

    Though I wonder what the Russians have planned for new rifles, perhaps they figured out how to make economical APFSDS round in small calibres?
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    Post  GarryB Fri May 13, 2022 4:30 am

    The 300m effective range of assault rifle cartridges was not plucked from the sky or found in a cabbage patch in the garden.

    Except in extreme terrain like open desert or mountains, most of the time if you see targets further away than 300m on the battlefield that are camouflaged and also in combat like you there is no time to get your rifle on target, identify as the enemy and fire, because they will be moving from cover to cover already.

    Having rifles and ammo to reach further and further out does not make it easy to hit such targets... the only soldiers trained to hit such targets are LMG and MMG operators and of course soldiers with full calibre rifles in the marksman type role.

    US rifles traditionally with peep iron sights and their training try to hit bullseyes, while Soviet soldiers and Soviet rifles used chest sized targets they just had to hit.

    Ironically an AK might hit someone in the gut or shoulder where even the best standard body armour wont stop, while a western rifle shooting for the heart will hit the main trauma plate and be stopped every time.

    Experience with Russian soldiers in Syria is that they didn't even notice some chest hits from 556, because they hit the trauma plate and were stopped cold.
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    Post  Kiko Thu Dec 22, 2022 10:25 pm

    Features of the modernized AK-12 assault rifle became known, by Ilya Maksimov for Rossiskaya Gazeta. 12.22.2022.

    Production of the 5.45 mm AK-12 (6P70) assault rifle with the M1 package of changes is scheduled to begin in 2023. Changes in the design of the weapon were made taking into account the experience of operating the machine during a special military operation. This is reported by the magazine "Kalashnikov".

    Taking into account the changes made, the modernized machine gun can be called AK-12M1, the newspaper notes.

    As previously reported, in the new modification, the AK-12 will lose the burst firing mode with a two-shot cutoff. The machine will receive a fuse-translator flag that can be switched with your thumb, and the function of blocking the bolt carrier when the fuse is on will be added to the trigger mechanism.

    It also became known that the AK-12M1 is planned to be equipped with a fixed flame arrester-compensator, which could previously be seen on the AK-19.

    The changes will also affect the diopter sight. It is assumed that the new version of the sight will receive a flip L-shaped rear sight, one of the positions of which will be designed for firing at a direct shot at a target 0.5 meters high, and the other for firing at a distance of 600 meters. The first position also provides for the possibility of using a backup diopter designed for shooting in low light conditions.

    The assault rifle will receive a new handguard, however, as Kalashnikov magazine points out, two of its designs are being worked out right now, and it is still unknown which one will be chosen. The new handguard is expected to be more comfortable and stronger.

    Not without changes in the design of the adjustable buttstock, which received a new angled lifting cheek. It improves the ease of use when shooting with various optoelectronic sights that have a higher line of sight compared to the standard one.

    https://rg.ru/2022/12/22/stali-izvestny-osobennosti-modernizirovannogo-avtomata-ak-12.html

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    Post  Regular Sat Dec 24, 2022 4:37 am

    It seems that 3rd version of AK-12 won't be very popular as well. Those who said that Russia should rather stick with m3/m4 kits for AK-74 rifles were right.



    https://t.me/milinfolive/94695

    Military Informant wrote:Meanwhile , the Kalashnikov Concern presented the AK-12 of the 2023 model , the machine received the M1 index. It is reported that the changes were made following the operation of the machine in the NWO zone. Production will start next year.

    USM machine gun lost the firing mode with a cut-off, and also received a fire translator flag under the thumb. One of the main innovations is a non- removable flash hider . Here the question is brewing, what about those servicemen who decide to install their own, purchased DTK? Or "bank"? KK is again doing everything so that those who decide to buy something at their own expense face difficulties in choosing and buying commercial products for the machine. It is reported that in 2023 the changes will also affect the forearm, KK is currently working on a new version.

    The changes also affected the diopter sight (for the third time in the life of this product). Now there is a flip L-shaped rear sight. Diopters have sizes of 1.8 and 4.5 mm. Where 1.8 is the “P” diopter for shooting at a direct shot, or for shooting at 600 m. The 4.5 mm diopter is designed for firing in limited light conditions. Here the question also arises, what to do if it turns out that this "mechanics" is not removed, and the user wants to put his sight? If so, then probably one of the most popular commercial scopes Holosun 403-series will have to be put only on a high stem, since on a low one there is a possibility of a "conflict" with the diopter.

    And finally we got to the point that a regular cheek appeared on the butt. It is now at an angle, which is said to provide more flexibility in terms of proper placement of the shooter.

    Thus, the Kalashnikov Concern is ready to put into production the third generation of the AK-12. The process of writing this text was accompanied by comments from three of our comrades regarding the 12-shki, two of whom worked with him in one way or another in the NWO zone, and we did not hear positive words about the new changes, in general, there was only obscene language and questions. It is not clear why KK each time goes in an incomprehensible way in terms of working with this machine. Moreover, people in the SMO zone prefer to work with the good old AK-74 in the M, RMO versions, or the simplest "oar".


    AK-12 Rifle Discussion - Page 31 Image89

    At least the buttstock will be fixed now. Maybe version no 4 will finally be universally acclaimed as now it's barbie gun
    AK-12 Rifle Discussion - Page 31 Image90

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    Post  GarryB Sat Dec 24, 2022 8:50 am

    The position of the iron sights is intentional, so you can take the standard night optic that can be hand held or attached to a helmet mount as a NVG can also be attached to the rifle in front of an existing optic or on a bare rifle.

    Note the night optic does not have crosshairs so mounting it in front of an existing rifle scope you would use the riflescopes crosshairs to aim and the night vision scope would give you a night vision view of the world so you can use day optics to shoot at night without having to rezero the scope.

    Equally if there is no conventional optic fitted the x1 magnification night vision device allows you to use your iron sights at night on targets.

    Some people will never like what they make no matter what they produce, that is just the nature of some people.
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    Post  Regular Sat Dec 24, 2022 6:23 pm

    GarryB wrote:The position of the iron sights is intentional, so you can take the standard night optic that can be hand held or attached to a helmet mount as a NVG can also be attached to the rifle in front of an existing optic or on a bare rifle.

    The problems are not the 3 leaf sight, but the buttstock. Also, with optics there is no need for such a rigid diopter design. There were complaints about it being flimsy on pre-2020 version. I think Kalashnikov stated that they are working on a final vesrion and it will look different on the finished model.

    Here is the issue with the EVO buttstock of mod 2020 clearly visible. Hence why soldiers use tourniquets and rags to improvise cheek rise.
    AK-12 Rifle Discussion - Page 31 31998710

    Here is the other problem with it and literally most of the bad rep for the rifle comes from this. It doesn't survive the real-life test. Firing was GP broke it and smashed the optics too.
    AK-12 Rifle Discussion - Page 31 Fjkple10


    GarryB wrote:Some people will never like what they make no matter what they produce, that is just the nature of some people.

    Russian soldiers don't complain a lot unless you touch their weapons that were working well before. They were not the ones asking for "modern barbie rifles".

    AK from SMO operators gets universally bad reviews. Many many I guess if they would have been moving from worse gun to this, but AK-74 is very decent platform from a begone era where they didn't have to modify it 242 times to make it work. It's not SA80, it should be good out of box.

    So far complaints are universal -
    Not rugged enough (Bad quality, and workmanship of pre-2020 rifles)
    Evo buttstock. Weak, flimsy, not comfortable.
    Cleaning kit location
    Bad thermal shielding, unable to have a forward clamp/grab, now very popular with the current shooting trends, especially when SMO guys are trained by professionals
    Fire selector

    Some of this was addressed by ZenithCo before Kalashnikov
    AK-12 Rifle Discussion - Page 31 Fbvf7a10
    AK-12 Rifle Discussion - Page 31 Figliz10
    AK-12 Rifle Discussion - Page 31 Image91

    Then again, now it's just identical to heavy AK-74 mod FSB/MVD/RG, but all of this gear was tested for more than a decade by most active units. Not some AR-15 gucci style nonsense or "reinvented bicycle" by some young zoomers in Kalashnikov

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    Post  zepia Mon Jan 30, 2023 4:43 am

    Some more detail about the final latest iteration of AK12.

    https://translated.turbopages.org/proxy_u/ru-en.en.00e618e1-63d699f2-fa5d4823-74722d776562/https/www.kalashnikov.ru/avtomat-ak-12-obraztsa-2023-goda/

    AK-12 assault rifle model 2023
    Rostec announces production of upgraded AK-12 assault rifle


       Mikhail Degtyarev
       28.01.2023

    AK-12 Rifle Discussion - Page 31 Ak-12-19

    "The AK-12 assault rifle has been significantly improved based on the results of its use in the SVO.
    It has become much more comfortable and ergonomic. This year, an updated version will be released in the series."

    - said the head of the state Corporation "Rostec" Sergey Chemezov in an interview with RIA Novosti.

    The message of the news agency "Novosti" fully corresponds to reality and I will be happy to add to it specifics regarding
    the material part of the AK-12 (6P70) assault rifle undergoing the next stage of modernization. I pay special attention to
    the relevance of photos taken in January 2023 in Izhevsk.

    AK-12 Rifle Discussion - Page 31 Ak-12-20
    5.45 mm AK-12M1 assault rifle (model 2023) with a low-noise firing device and a prototype of a new forearm with
    a fixed gas tube cover. On serial submachine guns, the mechanism for fixing the receiver cover will be simplified
    – the designers refused to check the flag with a short circuit on the forearm. Photo by Mikhail Degtyarev


    Before going directly to the design features of the new machine gun, I think it is necessary to emphasize that
    the Kalashnikov Design and Technology Center is working very intensively on the machine gun.

    AK-12 Rifle Discussion - Page 31 Ak-12-21
    5.45 mm AK-12M1 assault rifle (2023) with a folded butt with a prototype of a new forearm. Photo by Mikhail Degtyarev

    No sooner does one decision on a node or part have time to go through the entire complex of in-house inspections and tests,
    and another option falls on the table for discussion, and this diversity, which generates competition, clearly has a positive effect
    not only on the final result, but also on the very essence of the ongoing process.

    AK-12 Rifle Discussion - Page 31 Sergej11
    Chief Designer of the Kalashnikov Concern Sergey Urzhumtsev (right) and lead designer of the AK-12 Dmitry Dolganov discuss
    the changes made to the machine guns based on the results of the operation analysis during the SVO. Photo by Mikhail Degtyarev


    By the way, for the upgraded machine gun, the project's lead designer Dmitry Dolganov suggested using the designation AK-12 mod. 2023.
    Along with it, I will use simplified names AK-12 (2023) and AK-12M1.

    So, the changes implemented in the upgraded AK-12 in 2023, compared to the 2018 automatic, include:

    1. New muzzle device.
    The muzzle compensator brake with bayonet mount was replaced by a slotted flame arrester. The PMS is put on over it and fixed with an eccentric.

    2. New handguard.
    We haven't finished working on the final version yet. But, we can already say that the node as a whole will be significantly strengthened
    and will be less susceptible to overheating during intensive shooting.

    3. New front sight.
    Here, the changes are more technological than functional. I'll describe them in a big review.

    4. New diopter.
    Already the third version of the diopter for the AK-12 allows the shooter to choose between three settings: direct shot (main),
    low illumination (large diameter hole) and 600 m.

    AK-12 Rifle Discussion - Page 31 Ak-12-22
    The new version of the AK-12M1 diopter (2023) has three installations. Photo by Mikhail Degtyarev

    5. New safety mechanism.
    The USM of the AK-12 (2023) assault rifle is equipped with a safety translator with a two-way flag, which controls the curtain
    that closes the cutout in the receiver cover in the "safety on" position when turned.

    AK-12 Rifle Discussion - Page 31 Ak-12-23
    On the AK-12M1 (2023), the traditional Kalashnikov translator-fuse was transformed into a curtain that covers
    the cutout of the receiver cover and is controlled by a two-sided flag. Photo by Mikhail Degtyarev


    AK-12 Rifle Discussion - Page 31 Ak-12-24
    The flag of the AK-12M1 safety translator (model 2023) on the left side is controlled by the thumb (for a right-handed person).
    Photo by Mikhail Degtyarev


    In addition, the bolt carrier stop is introduced in the trigger, which prevents the cocking handle from touching the curtain
    and deforming it during strong impacts with the back of the butt or the rear receiver insert.

    AK-12 Rifle Discussion - Page 31 Ak-12-25
    The bar that restricts the bolt carrier stroke when the safety is turned on, and the AK-12M1 (2023) is adjacent
    to the inner side of the left wall of the receiver. Photo by Mikhail Degtyarev


    5. New fire control handle.
    The handle of the 2018 model, overly articulated under the fingers, gave way to a new handle made at the same time
    with a trigger guard. Radically changed the attachment of the container, which in the previous version broke,
    which led to the loss of the container itself.

    AK-12 Rifle Discussion - Page 31 Ak-12-26
    The new handle for the AK-12M1 is made in one piece with the trigger guard. Photo by Mikhail Degtyarev

    6. New stock
    "Triangular" the stock on a steel tubular base is replaced with an L-shaped fully polymer one with the ability to adjust the length,
    height of the back of the head and crest.

    AK-12 Rifle Discussion - Page 31 Ak-12-27
    The comb is an optional element of the butt of the AK-12M1 submachine gun (model 2023). It can be equipped with submachine guns
    with collimator sights. Photo by Mikhail Degtyarev


    That's all for now. I will tell you more about the entire set of measures to improve the design of the AK-12 assault rifle in a large review
    that is currently being prepared.



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      Current date/time is Tue Feb 07, 2023 11:25 pm