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lancelotThere is just one problem with this video. Since you cannot import the AK-12 to the US they are basing their analysis on what they can glimmer from available data and their own AK-12 replica. Now, that is a replica, not the actual thing.
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AK-12 Rifle Discussion
lancelot- Posts : 1091
Points : 1091
Join date : 2020-10-17
sepheronx, par far and zepia like this post
par far- Posts : 3295
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Join date : 2014-06-26
lancelot wrote:There is just one problem with this video. Since you cannot import the AK-12 to the US they are basing their analysis on what they can glimmer from available data and their own AK-12 replica. Now, that is a replica, not the actual thing.
This was my first thought as well.
sepheronx likes this post
teh_beard- Posts : 78
Points : 80
Join date : 2015-05-04
Location : St.-Petersburg, Russia
I`m in the market for an new AK right now, so I`m following the developments with AK-12 closely. Not chromed gasblocks are telling of course, but some of the reviewers shown actual TR3 (civilian SA AK-12) that got in their countries before all trade connections were gone. I, and Russian civilian shooters who got their hand on genuine things, have quite a few criticisms on the design too. So, my own list, with possible solutions:
1. Handguard. It is indeed thin, flimsy and would not realistically hold zero. Clearly it was done to fit in a weight requirement set by MOD, and no other reason.
Solution: Zenitco aluminium handguards, they pressure fits into trunnion and absolutely solid. There are several to choose from too - from heavier with lot of Picatinni rails to completely slimmed down with only one on top with rest of surfaces covered with Basis interface points (Zenitco own proprietary analog to M-LOK)
2. Stock. Initial is lame, with AR-stile tube of proprietary dimensions, which are not Milspec, nor Commercial...
Solution: fixed in new iteration of AK-12, where stock is may look like Magpul Zhukov, but way more solid. QD sling holes still of proprietary design though. Or could be easily swapped for Zenitco stuff - PT-1, of PT-3
3. Fire selector and trigger. Those who tried military ones report that 2-round burst introduced M16A2-like mushiness in it, and addition one more selection to the AK safety did not help ergonomics, since its now 4 positions separated by fewer degrees of selector lever travel. In general, idea of substitution of training with tech is a poor one, but we civilian shooter do not have to contend with it. Our obviously semi-auto TR3s still have that OKish standart AK trigger feel. And only two positions. About lower position stop and lever being pushed past it in stress - that a new info from this war. Not nice, what else to say, especially because it blocks access to trigger that way too...
Solution: I expect 2-round burst being dropped in gen.3 AK-12s and lever stop enhanced to fix the last issue
Dust cover zero holding capability remains to be tested. While its inherently inferior to upper-lower solution, it has history of doing its job done by many - FAB Defence, Zentico.. Initial reports show that KK solution is recommends itself solid so far.
But anyway, with current levels of KK greed: https://kalashnikov.market/product/0000001378K0000071/tr3-5-45x39-415-mm-priklad-ak-evo - 93k RUB vs 78k RUB that was TR3 gen.1, for no discernable reason other then KK CEO REALLY needing new Bentley in this trying times when it has to smuggled in Russia via third countries, I think I`ll stick with good ol` Saiga-MK rev.33 - shorty based on AK-104/105 for 52k RUB. Until they release short TR3 with further fixes, which will not happen any time soon, as its military counterpart AK-12K is developed by KK at its own initiative and not by request of MOD or MoIA, where all the contract meat lies.
1. Handguard. It is indeed thin, flimsy and would not realistically hold zero. Clearly it was done to fit in a weight requirement set by MOD, and no other reason.
Solution: Zenitco aluminium handguards, they pressure fits into trunnion and absolutely solid. There are several to choose from too - from heavier with lot of Picatinni rails to completely slimmed down with only one on top with rest of surfaces covered with Basis interface points (Zenitco own proprietary analog to M-LOK)
2. Stock. Initial is lame, with AR-stile tube of proprietary dimensions, which are not Milspec, nor Commercial...
Solution: fixed in new iteration of AK-12, where stock is may look like Magpul Zhukov, but way more solid. QD sling holes still of proprietary design though. Or could be easily swapped for Zenitco stuff - PT-1, of PT-3
3. Fire selector and trigger. Those who tried military ones report that 2-round burst introduced M16A2-like mushiness in it, and addition one more selection to the AK safety did not help ergonomics, since its now 4 positions separated by fewer degrees of selector lever travel. In general, idea of substitution of training with tech is a poor one, but we civilian shooter do not have to contend with it. Our obviously semi-auto TR3s still have that OKish standart AK trigger feel. And only two positions. About lower position stop and lever being pushed past it in stress - that a new info from this war. Not nice, what else to say, especially because it blocks access to trigger that way too...
Solution: I expect 2-round burst being dropped in gen.3 AK-12s and lever stop enhanced to fix the last issue
Dust cover zero holding capability remains to be tested. While its inherently inferior to upper-lower solution, it has history of doing its job done by many - FAB Defence, Zentico.. Initial reports show that KK solution is recommends itself solid so far.
But anyway, with current levels of KK greed: https://kalashnikov.market/product/0000001378K0000071/tr3-5-45x39-415-mm-priklad-ak-evo - 93k RUB vs 78k RUB that was TR3 gen.1, for no discernable reason other then KK CEO REALLY needing new Bentley in this trying times when it has to smuggled in Russia via third countries, I think I`ll stick with good ol` Saiga-MK rev.33 - shorty based on AK-104/105 for 52k RUB. Until they release short TR3 with further fixes, which will not happen any time soon, as its military counterpart AK-12K is developed by KK at its own initiative and not by request of MOD or MoIA, where all the contract meat lies.
Regular and GunshipDemocracy like this post
Regular- Posts : 3111
Points : 3091
Join date : 2013-03-10
Location : Fuck war
teh_beard wrote:I`m in the market for an new AK right now, so I`m following the developments with AK-12 closely. Not chromed gasblocks are telling of course, but some of the reviewers shown actual TR3 (civilian SA AK-12) that got in their countries before all trade connections were gone. I, and Russian civilian shooters who got their hand on genuine things, have quite a few criticisms on the design too. So, my own list, with possible solutions:
Thanks for interesting post.
Yes, it seems Kalashnikov is greedy now, there's no excuse why TR3 it's so expensive for what it is. No love for AK-12. Ak-105 with zenetco prichindals would be my choice.
Would you be interested in AKV-521 if they would release it?
Or KSO-18?
teh_beard- Posts : 78
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Join date : 2015-05-04
Location : St.-Petersburg, Russia
AKV is nice in theory, with its proper upper-lower design, but since receiver was split, it necessitated reinforcements of both halves to esure its rigidity. It weights same as PRK one.Regular wrote:Thanks for interesting post.
Yes, it seems Kalashnikov is greedy now, there's no excuse why TR3 it's so expensive for what it is. No love for AK-12. Ak-105 with zenetco prichindals would be my choice.
Would you be interested in AKV-521 if they would release it?
Or KSO-18?
And I`m, in my just thirties already have busted back from all the sport-related things I`ve done, so I really count every gram now. Shorter rifles, pencil-thin handguards, titanium supressors, plate carriers with StKSS... Rev.33 I`ll take in 7.62 - I really want to experiment how subsonic Tula ammo gonna go with with shorter cans from AlfaArms or my neighbours Hexagon.
About KSO-18 - I know it exist, now, after your post!
Won`t take off, in my opinion. Too expensive, too gimmicky for what it has to offer, just like its military counterpart.
Regular likes this post
GarryB- Posts : 33172
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Join date : 2010-03-30
Location : New Zealand
The purpose of the AK-12 was not to revolutionise assault rifles everywhere and make all western rifles redundant or inadequate.
The AK-12 is like the T-90AM or the Su-35... you take the existing product (AK-74, T-90, Su-27) and then upgrade and modify it to fix any perceived or real problems as far as possible and also make it easier to use with new equipment... in the case of T-90AM and Su-35s that means upgraded navigation and communications and net centric equipment so you can pass target data to other platforms and also receive target data from other platforms too to make the platform a more effective weapon.
For the AK-12 it needed to allow various bits and bobs to be attached, like night vision scopes and red dot sights so they can be used together along with underbarrel grenade launchers and rifle grenades as well.
We haven't really seen any rifle grenades of course so we don't know what they have developed in that regard, but then the under barrel grenade launcher seems to be changed too but little info is available about that at the moment.
Ratnik III is supposed to be deployed 2025 and may include new fire arms that have been promised with new functional principles and possibly new calibres and materials.
In terms of the basics the AK-12 adds the ability to easily add optics including various scopes together like a red dot sight and night vision optics or just iron sights.
Which is all they really need for an AK-74 temporary replacement for Ratnik I and II.
It has an adjustable butt stock so it can be used easily by different sized people wearing or not wearing body armour.
Otherwise it should just shoot which is seems to do.
With an American Youtube video it is tough to verify where they got the rifle and what ammo they were using, so any findings or performance would be difficult to gauge.
The AK-12 is like the T-90AM or the Su-35... you take the existing product (AK-74, T-90, Su-27) and then upgrade and modify it to fix any perceived or real problems as far as possible and also make it easier to use with new equipment... in the case of T-90AM and Su-35s that means upgraded navigation and communications and net centric equipment so you can pass target data to other platforms and also receive target data from other platforms too to make the platform a more effective weapon.
For the AK-12 it needed to allow various bits and bobs to be attached, like night vision scopes and red dot sights so they can be used together along with underbarrel grenade launchers and rifle grenades as well.
We haven't really seen any rifle grenades of course so we don't know what they have developed in that regard, but then the under barrel grenade launcher seems to be changed too but little info is available about that at the moment.
Ratnik III is supposed to be deployed 2025 and may include new fire arms that have been promised with new functional principles and possibly new calibres and materials.
In terms of the basics the AK-12 adds the ability to easily add optics including various scopes together like a red dot sight and night vision optics or just iron sights.
Which is all they really need for an AK-74 temporary replacement for Ratnik I and II.
It has an adjustable butt stock so it can be used easily by different sized people wearing or not wearing body armour.
Otherwise it should just shoot which is seems to do.
With an American Youtube video it is tough to verify where they got the rifle and what ammo they were using, so any findings or performance would be difficult to gauge.
par far likes this post
Regular- Posts : 3111
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Yes, those kits westerners are using require some fabrication and are based on Bulgarian AKs. But then again, Russian weapon bloggers who had real deal (both civilian and military) have bad things to say as well.
In this case, mostly about shitty M4 style stock, and flimsy plastics and it's not even news. The Military also complained about some issues and I don't know how they managed to bend the guns and were shouting at Kalashnikov about the corrosion.
Kalashnikov already showed an updated version of this that fixes most ergonomic problems.
I still think Zenitco did it better. IMHO, Kalashnikov needs to make base rifles and let these guys do all the modding.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=okmvdQ5QOQk
Especially now when exports are out of the window companies like Zenitco also need some orders. There is no need to reinvent the wheel, Zentico stuff is loved and used by Russian SF and army and Russians love long handguards for C-clamp grip. Or Kalashnikov can maybe purchase them and integrate in their weapons, I am biased here, but Zenitco stuff is absolutely Godly.
In this case, mostly about shitty M4 style stock, and flimsy plastics and it's not even news. The Military also complained about some issues and I don't know how they managed to bend the guns and were shouting at Kalashnikov about the corrosion.
Kalashnikov already showed an updated version of this that fixes most ergonomic problems.
I still think Zenitco did it better. IMHO, Kalashnikov needs to make base rifles and let these guys do all the modding.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=okmvdQ5QOQk
Especially now when exports are out of the window companies like Zenitco also need some orders. There is no need to reinvent the wheel, Zentico stuff is loved and used by Russian SF and army and Russians love long handguards for C-clamp grip. Or Kalashnikov can maybe purchase them and integrate in their weapons, I am biased here, but Zenitco stuff is absolutely Godly.
Cyrus the great- Posts : 296
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Join date : 2015-06-12
The AKV-521 seems really promising and (imo) should have replaced the AK-74M; the mounting station is 100% solid and should have no issues with maintaining zero.
Regular likes this post
GarryB- Posts : 33172
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Join date : 2010-03-30
Location : New Zealand
The core problem of course is we only know about stuff that has been shown and revealed.
They have mentioned new weapons... new family weapons that operate with new principles... whatever that means.
There are exotic technologies like caseless and plastic cased ammo, new calibres, new propellent ideas.
The AK-74 stayed in service because it works and is relatively cheap to make and simple to use and keep working.
I suspect new weapons will be revealed over the next 2-3 years...
They have mentioned new weapons... new family weapons that operate with new principles... whatever that means.
There are exotic technologies like caseless and plastic cased ammo, new calibres, new propellent ideas.
The AK-74 stayed in service because it works and is relatively cheap to make and simple to use and keep working.
I suspect new weapons will be revealed over the next 2-3 years...
Regular- Posts : 3111
Points : 3091
Join date : 2013-03-10
Location : Fuck war
GarryB wrote:The core problem of course is we only know about stuff that has been shown and revealed.
They have mentioned new weapons... new family weapons that operate with new principles... whatever that means.
There are exotic technologies like caseless and plastic cased ammo, new calibres, new propellent ideas.
The AK-74 stayed in service because it works and is relatively cheap to make and simple to use and keep working.
I suspect new weapons will be revealed over the next 2-3 years...
If Americans will flip flop (most likely) with their new calibre then I don't see any new weapons emerging.
AK-12 is not bad weapon, furniture can be replaced anytime if needed. Russia will get plenty of feedback from Ukraine and experience there will be deciding factor
GarryB- Posts : 33172
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Join date : 2010-03-30
Location : New Zealand
The core issue is that the calibre that needs to be replaced is the 7.62x54mm R round... the 6x49mm round they were developing was supposed to replace the Machine gun and Sniper cartridge of the Russian military to extend effective range to about 1.2km with less recoil and a smaller lighter round that would fit ammo belts and box magazines better.
The higher muzzle velocity and rather more efficient bullet design means it gets to the target faster with more energy and with less flight deviation, making it more accurate and more effective on target.... but it is not an assault rifle cartridge... the 5.45mm seems to be effective enough as it is.
An optimised drum feed that was reliable and quiet and not expensive to make would be interesting... there was a 95 round drum being designed for the RPK-16 or something... but their new LMGs seem to be belt fed because belt feed ammo is lighter and easier to carry.
Russia started a process to upgrade all its equipment and weapons to be new... having a cartridge from the 19th century wont make sense even if it still gets the job done.... the original PK and AK-74 get the job done but the PKP and AK-12 are in service and will be continually upgraded over time with experience.
They dedicated quite a bit of work to develop the 6x49mm replacement for the full power round, but ironically they might decide instead of going smaller to go bigger and perhaps go for a 9mm version of one of their Lapua Magnum rounds they are using for sniping... a shared round for the machine gun role, for sniping and for the designated marksman role within a combat platoon of motor rifle troops would be interesting.
In its sniper round form it would be far too expensive to use in the MG role but a round for coaxial machine gun roles would be interesting for targets to 1.5km or further out...
Man portable machine guns might go small calibre to make them and their ammo lighter, which for coaxial and vehicle mounts is not so important.
They also have the question of pistol and SMG ammo... do they continue to use the HATO round considering it is almost as old as the 7.62x54mm R cartridge too.
The higher muzzle velocity and rather more efficient bullet design means it gets to the target faster with more energy and with less flight deviation, making it more accurate and more effective on target.... but it is not an assault rifle cartridge... the 5.45mm seems to be effective enough as it is.
An optimised drum feed that was reliable and quiet and not expensive to make would be interesting... there was a 95 round drum being designed for the RPK-16 or something... but their new LMGs seem to be belt fed because belt feed ammo is lighter and easier to carry.
Russia started a process to upgrade all its equipment and weapons to be new... having a cartridge from the 19th century wont make sense even if it still gets the job done.... the original PK and AK-74 get the job done but the PKP and AK-12 are in service and will be continually upgraded over time with experience.
They dedicated quite a bit of work to develop the 6x49mm replacement for the full power round, but ironically they might decide instead of going smaller to go bigger and perhaps go for a 9mm version of one of their Lapua Magnum rounds they are using for sniping... a shared round for the machine gun role, for sniping and for the designated marksman role within a combat platoon of motor rifle troops would be interesting.
In its sniper round form it would be far too expensive to use in the MG role but a round for coaxial machine gun roles would be interesting for targets to 1.5km or further out...
Man portable machine guns might go small calibre to make them and their ammo lighter, which for coaxial and vehicle mounts is not so important.
They also have the question of pistol and SMG ammo... do they continue to use the HATO round considering it is almost as old as the 7.62x54mm R cartridge too.
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The-thing-next-door- Posts : 1042
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I have just been looking at the new pindostanski rifle, in my opinion all they have really achieved is the loss of full auto viability.
I find it unlikely that typical soldiers will hit anything beyond the range of the 5.45 with any consistency.
Though I wonder what the Russians have planned for new rifles, perhaps they figured out how to make economical APFSDS round in small calibres?
I find it unlikely that typical soldiers will hit anything beyond the range of the 5.45 with any consistency.
Though I wonder what the Russians have planned for new rifles, perhaps they figured out how to make economical APFSDS round in small calibres?
GarryB- Posts : 33172
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Join date : 2010-03-30
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The 300m effective range of assault rifle cartridges was not plucked from the sky or found in a cabbage patch in the garden.
Except in extreme terrain like open desert or mountains, most of the time if you see targets further away than 300m on the battlefield that are camouflaged and also in combat like you there is no time to get your rifle on target, identify as the enemy and fire, because they will be moving from cover to cover already.
Having rifles and ammo to reach further and further out does not make it easy to hit such targets... the only soldiers trained to hit such targets are LMG and MMG operators and of course soldiers with full calibre rifles in the marksman type role.
US rifles traditionally with peep iron sights and their training try to hit bullseyes, while Soviet soldiers and Soviet rifles used chest sized targets they just had to hit.
Ironically an AK might hit someone in the gut or shoulder where even the best standard body armour wont stop, while a western rifle shooting for the heart will hit the main trauma plate and be stopped every time.
Experience with Russian soldiers in Syria is that they didn't even notice some chest hits from 556, because they hit the trauma plate and were stopped cold.
Except in extreme terrain like open desert or mountains, most of the time if you see targets further away than 300m on the battlefield that are camouflaged and also in combat like you there is no time to get your rifle on target, identify as the enemy and fire, because they will be moving from cover to cover already.
Having rifles and ammo to reach further and further out does not make it easy to hit such targets... the only soldiers trained to hit such targets are LMG and MMG operators and of course soldiers with full calibre rifles in the marksman type role.
US rifles traditionally with peep iron sights and their training try to hit bullseyes, while Soviet soldiers and Soviet rifles used chest sized targets they just had to hit.
Ironically an AK might hit someone in the gut or shoulder where even the best standard body armour wont stop, while a western rifle shooting for the heart will hit the main trauma plate and be stopped every time.
Experience with Russian soldiers in Syria is that they didn't even notice some chest hits from 556, because they hit the trauma plate and were stopped cold.
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