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    AK-12 Rifle Discussion

    sepheronx
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    Post  sepheronx Sat Dec 20, 2014 8:42 am

    Are we even sure which rifle passed the tests? Ratnik is already being implemented yet they still use the older AK's. Last I heard, AEK won the tender. I prefer the AEK rifle by what I have read in accounts, but either choice is still a good choice.

    Kalashnikov should be looking at producing more than just rifles to save itself. Maybe go back to making cheap cars, motorbikes and guided munitions should be a good start.
    TheArmenian
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    Post  TheArmenian Sat Dec 20, 2014 9:03 am

    It is not politics or lobbying. It is more economics.
    Izhmash is already under strain from sanctions (their biggest export markets for civilian firearms was the US and EU).
    Sanctions are not hurting Kovrov as it does not make civilian exports. In fact Kovrov is doing very well with steady orders for KORD, ASVK, Pecheneg and PKM.

    I think the AEK is more advanced and overall better than the AK-12. I would like to see it win with the production shared between the 2 factories.

    Alternatively, both rifles can be ordered with the VDV, Marines and special forces getting the AEK, while the rest (which is the bulk) of the armed forces getting the AK-12. The final choice can be made a few years later when the whole army can standardize on the one that it finds more suitable.
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    Post  GarryB Sat Dec 20, 2014 11:08 am

    Dont want to get too small of MOA though, almost want the rounds to spread out a bit ?

    The main purpose of the three round burst function is two fold... first if the target is moving then three shots hitting in a group.. ie not all hitting in exactly the same place improves your chance of at least one hit against a moving or indistinct target. Second for a stationary target it means the potential for multiple hits which increases lethality. In both cases you don't want extremely tight little 1 MOA groups... a bit of spread is good without wasting too much ammo.

    The balancing counter-weight in AEK is not winning supporters it seems.

    Part of the problem will be that it is most effective in firing bursts, but overall accuracy against point targets is best in single shot.

    Some reports said it was based on rack-pinion design, which would, in fact, be fragile in my opinion. But I don't really see a need for such complexity .

    I have been told it is not soldier proof and needs to be reinstalled after cleaning correctly otherwise you have a single shot rifle...

    Why would they need the RP setup ?

    To balance the motion of both components... if they are out of balance for whatever reason the system does the opposite of what it should do... it makes the recoil forces biased in one direction or another.

    There's always quality of ammo thing, but that's secondary and can be addressed independently.

    Efforts are being made in that direction too.

    The AEK-971 is a marvelous assault rifle according to everyone who has ever tried it; I mean can you imagine burst or automatic fire with only a fraction of the recoil? And now this innovative rifle is going to be lost to the anus of military-industrial lobbying and Russia's equivalent of 'big business' suppressing the small guy. Damn them all.

    they have the same problem in the US... lots of contenders but they don't offer enough of an improvement in performance over the M16 and M4 to warrant the cost to change to a new rifle.

    The AK-74 already does a good job and the AK12 fixes all its perceived problems and a few more that I don't even think were problems... why not pick the AK12?

    Reminds me a bit of the MiG SU conflict, but there was enough of a difference between them to warrant accepting both into service.

    I don't think there is enough of a difference for the AK and AEK... perhaps if the AEK was more radically different... a bullpup or something it might be worth it... but the fact is that it is just a recoil balanced AK... an AK-107 really.

    The AK-12 has lightened internals, so recoil will be reduced. This also inherently reduces reliability, a drawback.

    True, but how reliable is too reliable and how reliable is reliable enough...

    I know for a fact that part of the problems with the M4 and M16 is the crappy cheap magazines they use. AK mags are solid.

    I have to agree with FP.

    The sad truth is politics are more important than performance when it comes to the MiC.

    I have to disagree... I rather doubt Kovrov has the production facilities to make a few million AEK rifles for the Russian military... odds are they would likely contract them out to Kalashnikov for some of the production anyway.

    We need some 'Prima Faci' evidence to back such claims, otherwise the Kalashnikov family of rifles legendary tradition should take precedence over anything else.

    I disagree... the Ak12 looks to me to be a good enough rifle to stand on its own merits without mentioning its pedigree.

    The AK-12 is just so vanilla.

    So your argument is change for the sake of change... Not a strong argument in my opinion.

    The optics rail/dust cover looks flimsy.

    The same rail mount has been shown on upgraded versions of the SVD... do you think they would make it weak?

    The stock lacks a cheek riser.

    The ones shown above do, but the original ones have an adjustable cheek piece... and the AEK rifle has an even more basic folding stock.

    It lacks a flared magwell of any sort, more rock and lock clumsy reloading.

    It has the same mag well as all other AKs in Russian military service.

    The front sight post, even on the standard infantry rifle variant should be integrated with the gas block.

    Why shorten the sight base?

    The only real impressive difference compared to say an AK-74 is the modularity.

    No it isn't... how is it modular?

    the impressive differences is the rifling is changed to allow heavier projectiles to be fired accurately, a bolt hold open device is fitted, mounting equipment is made easier with various rails, the safe and fire selector is made fully ambidextrous, a three round burst option is added, there is now a capacity to change the side the charging handle is on, the folding stock is now length adjustable, some models have a cheek riser to allow a better cheek wield for scopes, and iron sights are now peep sights, and if you want you can fire existing NATO standard rifle grenades from the muzzle while still being able to use the existing under barrel 40mm grenade launcher. Internal components have been redesigned to be lighter which reduces recoil.

    Sounds pretty worthwhile to me.

    BTW balanced recoil mechanisms were developed a long time ago and were included in the competition that the AK-74 finally won in the 1970s... to me this appears to be a case of a gun very similar to the AK-74 with balanced recoil, and a thoroughly upgraded AK-74 (AK12) competing... and in terms of ergonomics the AEK rifle looks like an old AK-74 while the AK12 looks modern.

    To me, the selection seems like a creative way to bail out the Kalashnikov brand. Which is important, especially in the face of the newly restricted US civilian market thanks to these fucking sanctions.

    If that was the case they could have just declared the AK-74 acceptable and just kept buying them.

    The Kalashnikov brand does not need bailing out... they are making missiles... Smile

    I think the AEK is more advanced and overall better than the AK-12. I would like to see it win with the production shared between the 2 factories.

    I disagree... the AEK is not more advanced as far as I can tell.

    Everyone is saying the balanced recoil mechanism is simple, but a chap I have talked to said it was tricky and if you didn't keep it clean and put it back together correctly you would have problems.

    Now if this is true and I have no reason to doubt him, why introduce such a rifle into widespread service... I didn't like the pulley cable system on the AN-94 either for very similar reasons.

    The AK12 solves the problem by reducing the weight of the bolt carrier and bolt so the parts of the rifle bouncing around during recoil have less impact.... literally.

    Not anything new... the SVD has a light piston rod and a separate lighter bolt carrier to reduce the effect of recoil, though the rather more powerful round mean it still kicks a bit.
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    r111

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    Post  r111 Sat Dec 20, 2014 1:22 pm

    Gents,

    an excellent conversation here.

    Here is a pic of piston & bolt/carrier of HK416.

    http://photos.imageevent.com/smglee/clt2/huge/DSCN2458.jpg

    Looks uber light. Note also that piston is separate/not-part-of push rod - this is done on purpose, to lower the heat transfer back to the bolt.

    Anyone can post similar pics for AK12 ? W/o violating any state secrets etc, of course Smile
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    Vann7

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    Post  Vann7 Sat Dec 20, 2014 1:27 pm

    I also on the side that thinks is not politics ..but needs..

    Somewhere i read.. that the AK-12 is most ideal for the army.. because..

    The gun is more is more simpler ,  have less mechanical parts which is a big plus for a combat zone
    over long periods ,  ( means easier to clean ) and apparently the Ak-12 can support many more caliber munition,
    apparently can support NATO munition and ak-47 munition too ,this is a big plus in moments that you are out of bullets.. you could pick your enemies munition when they killed and resupply. This is HUGE..  Extremely important
    in any war.. if for example you are encircle , usually what your enemy will do if you have too strong defeses is wait you starve and force you go out of munition. And this is usually the tactics of Syrian army in Syria.. they encircle jihadist in towns.. and just wait they low on munition to assault. AEK could be better.. but in versatility and long periods fighting the AK-12 will come in top..   In Serbia war for example ,one of the problems the Russian army sent to protect the airport ,they had the problem to run out of munition. In a real repeat of a long war ,is better to have the much simpler weapons with more versatility ,and easier to maintian and clean.

    Personally i think Russia should pick Both.. to support the weapon industry and give the AEK to lets say the regular army.. the one that will fight at home.. and special forces that need to enter deep inside territory of enemy the ak-12 and a silent sniper rifle. Or perhaps get an upgraded AEK for all that support all munitions that ak-12 support.

    even though it doesn't matters in combat.. the ak-12 looks prettier too with upgrades.

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    r111

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    Post  r111 Sat Dec 20, 2014 4:02 pm

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MQjwqlXnRFc

    The most recent public video  of AK12. Looking real sharp. Absolutely flat & long-ass top picrail.
    Peep-hole stock iron sight, _also_ picrail mounted.

    I am dying to see the piston & bolt carrier group Smile

    At the end, the shooter unloads 96-round drum in one squeeze. Don't want to be @receiving end of that volley.


    Werewolf
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    Post  Werewolf Sat Dec 20, 2014 6:15 pm

    I still find amazing how low the recoil of the AK-12 is, just awesome. I've shot the G-36 which was already said to have "low recoil" but despite being 5.56mm you feel in full auto that it pushes you back, but this looks like recoil of a bizon or mp5.
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    Post  Regular Sat Dec 20, 2014 8:46 pm

    Werewolf wrote:I still find amazing how low the recoil of the AK-12 is, just awesome. I've shot the G-36 which was already said to have "low recoil" but despite being 5.56mm you feel in full auto that it pushes you back, but this looks like recoil of a bizon or mp5.

    Recoil on AK-12 looks nice. But are You saying You were allowed to use fully auto in Bundeswehr? G-36 models Germany uses are really outdated with piss poor optics and barrels with low temperature tolerance. But it still a good rifle. HK 41X series look more interesting, but as always best things Germans make rarely are used by themselves.
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    Post  Werewolf Sat Dec 20, 2014 8:55 pm

    Regular wrote:
    Werewolf wrote:I still find amazing how low the recoil of the AK-12 is, just awesome. I've shot the G-36 which was already said to have "low recoil" but despite being 5.56mm you feel in full auto that it pushes you back, but this looks like recoil of a bizon or mp5.

    Recoil on AK-12 looks nice. But are You saying You were allowed to use fully auto in Bundeswehr? G-36 models Germany uses are really outdated with piss poor optics and barrels with low temperature tolerance. But it still a good rifle. HK 41X series look more interesting, but as always best things Germans make rarely are used by themselves.

    Allowed not but as reservist we do not take what we are allowed and what not, so seriously and i find everyone should have experienced full auto at least one time to know how it is to get sensitive with the recoil. When you mean with "piss poor optics" that they are defeating their purposed goal of fast acquisition with the Red Dot Sight that the diameter of the sight is to small than yes, but other than that they actually are fine. Well probably the HK-416 series are good but i really hate already the m4 crappy layout have just an allergic reaction to this weapon, did not like anything about it only how it lays in hands in comperision with G-36. Well that is often the case for many armies that they do not field the best those countries have before others do, just like the case with AEK exists already since soviet times und is just now in fieldtest for army.
    Zivo
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    Post  Zivo Sun Dec 21, 2014 12:02 am

    I have to disagree... I rather doubt Kovrov has the production facilities to make a few million AEK rifles for the Russian military... odds are they would likely contract them out to Kalashnikov for some of the production anyway.

    You answered your own criticism for me. Production would be contracted out.

    The same rail mount has been shown on upgraded versions of the SVD... do you think they would make it weak?

    Previous designs were weak. I've handled new rifles and shotguns strait from Izhmash with integrated rails on the dust cover, the designs are hit and miss. I've even seen some were the holes for the rivets that pin the dustcover to the rail are not strait, which bends the rail. I've actually seen examples were the rear furthermost section of the rail is angled either way by as much as 10°. This is by no means a rare observation either.

    It has never happened to me, but I've seen examples of these rails becoming detached during use. Thin metal, bad rivets, recoil and all that.

    The AK-12's dust cover looks like it may be vulnerable to the same manufacturing flaws.

    The ones shown above do, but the original ones have an adjustable cheek piece... and the AEK rifle has an even more basic folding stock.

    I'm not impressed with either stock at this point. What disappoints me is the AK-12's stock has been downgraded. Many AEK's have folding stocks and the cheek riser is a cheap addon for the skeletal stocks you usually see on them.

    It has the same mag well as all other AKs in Russian military service.

    It's a clumsy system, that can be simply improved with minimal cost. They fixed the mag release with a simple addon, they could do the same for the magwell.

    Why shorten the sight base?

    To lighten the weight a bit, and move the center of gravity further back. You shorten the sight base by a finger's length,  but save in weight and cost. One less thing for the factory to screw up, crooked sight blocks, etc. The carbine version and standard version would have more part commonality. I don't see the point in retaining the original AK front sight block, especially since the rear sight has been placed towards the back of the AK-12.

    Optics are becoming more common anyways.


    the impressive differences is the rifling is changed to allow heavier projectiles to be fired accurately, a bolt hold open device is fitted, mounting equipment is made easier with various rails, the safe and fire selector is made fully ambidextrous, a three round burst option is added, there is now a capacity to change the side the charging handle is on, the folding stock is now length adjustable, some models have a cheek riser to allow a better cheek wield for scopes, and iron sights are now peep sights, and if you want you can fire existing NATO standard rifle grenades from the muzzle while still being able to use the existing under barrel 40mm grenade launcher. Internal components have been redesigned to be lighter which reduces recoil.

    Sounds pretty worthwhile to me.

    I'm aware of the features.

    IMO, not enough has been improved. Rifles have long service lives, and a decade from now I don't want to hear the same complaints I've been hearing for years about the AK's ergonomics. If they're trying to fix the problems of the AK-74 using extensive modifications, they mights as well go all in.
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Sun Dec 21, 2014 11:09 am

    You answered your own criticism for me. Production would be contracted out.

    So they are offering a prototype they can't produce themselves and subcontracting the work will make it even more expensive for no extra benefit... and you are OK with that?

    The AK-12's dust cover looks like it may be vulnerable to the same manufacturing flaws.

    And so what... will they sudden;ly be fixed and perfect if instead of making AK12s they are making AEKs?

    Many AEK's have folding stocks and the cheek riser is a cheap addon for the skeletal stocks you usually see on them.

    Most of the AEK stocks are the crappy sliding stocks the Germans seem to love, which offers no chance for a cheek rest.

    It's a clumsy system, that can be simply improved with minimal cost. They fixed the mag release with a simple addon, they could do the same for the magwell.
    8

    The fact that it hasn't been made as a change suggests it is not a problem.

    I don't have problems reloading my mags on my AK or my FN FAL or my M4.

    If they're trying to fix the problems of the AK-74 using extensive modifications, they mights as well go all in.

    But the AK12 fixes most of the real problems with the AK and the AEK does not.

    The AK12 also fixes the problem of the dust cover safety bar... when set to fire it exposes the internals to dirt and dust and also means you can't remove a round from the chamber without setting the safety to fire on the standard AK. On the AK12 you can set the rifle to safe and eject a round and cycle rounds in the mag out of the weapon without removing the safety or exposing the internals to dust which should also improve reliability.

    the simple facts are that there are versions of the AK that have balanced recoil mechanisms (AK-107/108) and there are versions with the front iron sights on the gas system (AK-9 and AKS-74U). If they actually wanted such features they could have adopted them easily.

    The only reason to move the front iron sights to the gas tube would be to allow over barrel suppressors to be fitted further back making the whole weapon slightly shorter than with a muzzle fitted can.

    For all we know the front iron sight might act as a barrel weight balance that improves accuracy...
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    Post  Vann7 Sun Dec 21, 2014 5:30 pm


    RT visits Kalashnikov

    http://rt.com/news/216431-kalashnikov-plant-inside-ak12/


    Watch how the ak-12 is done..
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    Post  George1 Sun Dec 21, 2014 10:41 pm

    AK-12 will have a carbine version also?
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    Post  Regular Sun Dec 21, 2014 11:30 pm

    George1 wrote:AK-12 will have a carbine version also?
    It already does
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    Post  Zivo Mon Dec 22, 2014 2:33 am

    So they are offering a prototype they can't produce themselves and subcontracting the work will make it even more expensive for no extra benefit... and you are OK with that?

    There is benefit, both companies will make money, and the soldiers will get a higher performance rifle. If rearmament has to be extended a few years to meet budget, so be it. The AK-74 can serve a few years longer.

    And so what... will they sudden;ly be fixed and perfect if instead of making AK12s they are making AEKs?

    The AK's dust cover wasn't originally intended to have anything mounted to it. It's a flimsy piece of stamped steel whose rearmost attachment point happens to be the same piece of pressure fitted steel the recoil spring attaches too. It's a smart design for its intended use, I can't even blame Mr. Kalashnikov for that flaw because his rifle is being adapted to use non-soviet optics. I don't know for sure what caused the defects in the rails I've seen, but the theory I've heard thrown around is that the dust cover can twist during the riveting process.

    The A-545's upper section looks far more rigid vs the AK-12's. It's a large fuck up proof chuck of polymer. I have quite a few russian made polymer pieces of similar construction, including the rails, and they're all high quality.

    Most of the AEK stocks are the crappy sliding stocks the Germans seem to love, which offers no chance for a cheek rest.

    Like I said, I don't like either stock.

    The AK-12's stock has be revised already, and in my opinion, downgraded. I highly doubt a service rifle would go into production with the A-545's collapsible stock, and would likely be changed.

    The "what if" still remains though, had the A-545 been selected it might have gotten a stock like the AK-12 and the problem would remain.

    The fact that it hasn't been made as a change suggests it is not a problem.

    I don't have problems reloading my mags on my AK or my FN FAL or my M4.

    I don't have problems reloading when on the range either, but it's disappointing seeing Novorussian rebels fumbling with their magazines during firefights, shaky hands and adrenaline make it harder.

    The AK12 also fixes the problem of the dust cover safety bar... when set to fire it exposes the internals to dirt and dust and also means you can't remove a round from the chamber without setting the safety to fire on the standard AK. On the AK12 you can set the rifle to safe and eject a round and cycle rounds in the mag out of the weapon without removing the safety or exposing the internals to dust which should also improve reliability.

    The A-545 addresses the same problem with a similar solution.

    the simple facts are that there are versions of the AK that have balanced recoil mechanisms (AK-107/108) and there are versions with the front iron sights on the gas system (AK-9 and AKS-74U). If they actually wanted such features they could have adopted them easily.

    It's a conservative choice, they're keeping the appearance of the older rifle, while addressing a few of the highest priority problems with the original design.

    I like the list design choices made with the exception of the stock, but they could do better. More improvements should have been made.

    For all we know the front iron sight might act as a barrel weight balance that improves accuracy...

    Any weight on the furthest point of the arm is going to cause sway and make the weapon harder to handle.

    It's just easier to unify the gasblock/sight between all variants and extend the barrel for the longer range rifles.


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    Post  GarryB Tue Dec 23, 2014 9:35 am

    There is benefit, both companies will make money, and the soldiers will get a higher performance rifle. If rearmament has to be extended a few years to meet budget, so be it. The AK-74 can serve a few years longer.

    But that is the problem... where is the evidence it is a better rifle?

    The AK's dust cover wasn't originally intended to have anything mounted to it. It's a flimsy piece of stamped steel whose rearmost attachment point happens to be the same piece of pressure fitted steel the recoil spring attaches too. It's a smart design for its intended use, I can't even blame Mr. Kalashnikov for that flaw because his rifle is being adapted to use non-soviet optics. I don't know for sure what caused the defects in the rails I've seen, but the theory I've heard thrown around is that the dust cover can twist during the riveting process.

    But you are talking about existing rifles that have been adapted by having a rail system fitted to something that was never originally designed for rail mounts.

    the AK12 is a new build where rails were considered relatively essential from the beginning.

    The shape of the receiver cover on the AK12 looks totally different in shape and likely thickness.

    The A-545's upper section looks far more rigid vs the AK-12's. It's a large fuck up proof chuck of polymer. I have quite a few russian made polymer pieces of similar construction, including the rails, and they're all high quality.

    The SKS has a strong receiver cover too, do you really think they would not redesign the receiver cover for its new intended purpose?

    The "what if" still remains though, had the A-545 been selected it might have gotten a stock like the AK-12 and the problem would remain.

    the first stock shown with the AK12 as we know it now had length adjustment, plus rifle butt angle adjustment capabilities as well as a moving cheek piece for scopes.

    Have not seen the AEK with anything remotely like that.

    I don't have problems reloading when on the range either, but it's disappointing seeing Novorussian rebels fumbling with their magazines during firefights, shaky hands and adrenaline make it harder.

    That is what training is for.

    It's a conservative choice, they're keeping the appearance of the older rifle, while addressing a few of the highest priority problems with the original design.

    Which is most likely what they were asked to do.

    This is to be the MiG-35/Su-35... the PAK FA of rifles is secret...

    I like the list design choices made with the exception of the stock, but they could do better.

    Of course they could do better, but they have to be able to mass produce these rifles and SMGs and LMGs and sniper rifles for a reasonable price and on time. Conservative is not a dirty word in military circles.

    Any weight on the furthest point of the arm is going to cause sway and make the weapon harder to handle.

    Lots of target shooting rifles have barrel weights to harmonise the vibrations when firing.

    Vibrations as such are not bad for accuracy. Accuracy is consistency, so if the gun bends in the middle that wont reduce accuracy as long as it bends at the same time for each shot the same distance.

    It's just easier to unify the gasblock/sight between all variants and extend the barrel for the longer range rifles.

    Why?

    My SLR and M4 have their front iron sights on top of their gas systems, but I really don't see it having any advantage over the AKM I have.

    The only minor advantage would be with overbarrel suppressors making the overall weapon shorter than with a muzzle forward suppressor... but how often will they be used by soldiers?
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    Post  Austin Tue Dec 23, 2014 1:38 pm

    MIC: two machine guns passed state tests for equipment "Warrior"


    Board member of the Military-Industrial Commission of the Russian Federation Oleg Martianov said that during the trial operation machines AEK-971 and AK-12 will be decided by departments, where they will be delivered.



    MOSCOW, December 23 - RIA Novosti. Both developed within the equipment of the future "Warrior" machine - AEK-971 (Degtyarev Plant) and AK-12 (concern "Kalashnikov") - passed state tests and must be received by experimental Branch operation in Armed Forces.

    "Both have been gosipytaniya machine, both correspond to the tactical and technical demands made in the Ministry of Defence. Small flaws on the results of state tests now eliminated," - said Tuesday RIA Novosti board member of the Military-Industrial Commission of the Russian Federation Oleg Martianov.

    He noted that in March, most likely, both the machine will go to the development of army operation in the Armed Forces. By March, all 54 member "warrior", including weapons, will be delivered in these units have Martianov.

    "During the trial operation has to be decided by departments, where they will be delivered, and quantity. Perhaps one of the machines will go alone, and others - others. For example, special forces need some features Airborne - other Marines - third, and land forces need a mass good weapon, "- said Martianov.

    According to him, November 25 state tests of all 54 items of equipment.

    "Now there is a meeting of the interdepartmental commission on which relevant documents are issued by the adoption of the weapons" - said Martianov. Clearance is likely to last until February.

    "Warrior" - the Russian military-industrial complex "soldier of the future", combines modern firearms, effective protection kits, reconnaissance and communications, only about ten different subsystems.

    In addition to their combat functionality, it is designed to ensure effective protection of the soldier from various damaging factors on the battlefield. The scope of "Warrior" includes about 50 different items, including small arms, aiming system, protection, electronic means of communication, navigation and targeting.

    http://ria.ru/defense_safety/20141223/1039795898.html
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    Post  magnumcromagnon Tue Dec 23, 2014 2:59 pm

    Austin wrote:MIC: two machine guns passed state tests for equipment "Warrior"


    Board member of the Military-Industrial Commission of the Russian Federation Oleg Martianov said that during the trial operation machines AEK-971 and AK-12 will be decided by departments, where they will be delivered.



    MOSCOW, December 23 - RIA Novosti. Both developed within the equipment of the future "Warrior" machine - AEK-971 (Degtyarev Plant) and AK-12 (concern "Kalashnikov") - passed state tests and must be received by experimental Branch operation in Armed Forces.

    "Both have been gosipytaniya machine, both correspond to the tactical and technical demands made in the Ministry of Defence. Small flaws on the results of state tests now eliminated," - said Tuesday RIA Novosti board member of the Military-Industrial Commission of the Russian Federation Oleg Martianov.

    He noted that in March, most likely, both the machine will go to the development of army operation in the Armed Forces. By March, all 54 member "warrior", including weapons, will be delivered in these units have Martianov.

    "During the trial operation has to be decided by departments, where they will be delivered, and quantity. Perhaps one of the machines will go alone, and others - others. For example, special forces need some features Airborne - other Marines - third, and land forces need a mass good weapon, "- said Martianov.

    According to him, November 25 state tests of all 54 items of equipment.

    "Now there is a meeting of the interdepartmental commission on which relevant documents are issued by the adoption of the weapons" - said Martianov. Clearance is likely to last until February.

    "Warrior" - the Russian military-industrial complex "soldier of the future", combines modern firearms, effective protection kits, reconnaissance and communications, only about ten different subsystems.

    In addition to their combat functionality, it is designed to ensure effective protection of the soldier from various damaging factors on the battlefield. The scope of "Warrior" includes about 50 different items, including small arms, aiming system, protection, electronic means of communication, navigation and targeting.

    http://ria.ru/defense_safety/20141223/1039795898.html

    I've been saying this for about 6 months that the likeliness that both rifles will be accepted in to service are great...I'm starting to look like a profit now lol! People who like to whine that the AEK may have not 'won' the competition, don't seem to realize that a great rifle will still find it's way in to service.
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    Post  r111 Tue Dec 23, 2014 4:58 pm

    Yep, great news indeed russia .
    I felt the same way about both having a chance to enter the service.

    They both passed the rigorous testing routine. Lil things to get addressed.

    May be now they will show more of both in the news Smile.

    Now, a question. What would spec ops choose ? Allegedly more accurate AEK ? Or better-understood AK12 unshaven ?

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    Post  George1 Tue Dec 23, 2014 5:30 pm

    r111 wrote:Yep, great news indeed  russia .
    I felt the same way about both having a  chance to enter the service.

    They both passed the rigorous testing routine. Lil things to get addressed.

    May be now they will show more of both in the news Smile.

    Now, a question. What would spec ops choose ? Allegedly more accurate AEK ? Or  better-understood AK12   unshaven ?



    i thinks special forces and VDV will take AEK-971
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    Post  magnumcromagnon Tue Dec 23, 2014 6:39 pm

    r111 wrote:Yep, great news indeed  russia .
    I felt the same way about both having a  chance to enter the service.

    They both passed the rigorous testing routine. Lil things to get addressed.

    May be now they will show more of both in the news Smile.

    Now, a question. What would spec ops choose ? Allegedly more accurate AEK ? Or  better-understood AK12   unshaven ?


    I believe special forces will probably prefer the AEK, while conscripts will probably prefer the simpler AK-12. With all the debate about which rifle should be brought in to service, I was one of the few vocal members on this forum who explicitly mentioned that both rifles passed state trials, and I was one of the few to point out that both rifles will be brought in to service. I was smart enough not to waste my time claiming (insert rifle) should be taken over the other, It goes to show that people shouldn't question my empirical and holistically based judgement again... Razz Cool
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    Post  Regular Tue Dec 23, 2014 9:06 pm

    Same as M4 and M16 in USA. I don't think it will be logistics problem as someone said before. There are plenty of weapons in Russian army with various callibres already.
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    Post  magnumcromagnon Tue Dec 23, 2014 9:36 pm

    Regular wrote:Same as M4 and M16 in USA. I don't think it will be logistics problem as someone said before. There are plenty of weapons in Russian army with various callibres already.

    Exactly! That's what I've been saying too. Logistics concerning small arms aren't anything like vehicle logistics. You can have multiple rifles in service without any major concerns.
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    Post  George1 Tue Dec 23, 2014 9:42 pm

    M4 is a that was derived from earlier carbine versions of the M16 rifle.

    AK-12 and AEK-971 combination is like M4 that used from US army and FN SCAR that used from special operation forces of USA and marines
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    Post  Zivo Wed Dec 24, 2014 1:26 am

    But that is the problem... where is the evidence it is a better rifle?

    Because it's still in the running. The AEK is a one trick pony, if it wasn't a better performer than the basic AK-12 assault rifle variant, it would have been eliminated.

    But you are talking about existing rifles that have been adapted by having a rail system fitted to something that was never originally designed for rail mounts.

    the AK12 is a new build where rails were considered relatively essential from the beginning.

    The shape of the receiver cover on the AK12 looks totally different in shape and likely thickness.

    It's the manufacturing process I worry about, not the design.

    AK-12 Rifle Discussion - Page 16 1861389

    This is a Saiga-12 030, its rail is actually hinged to the rear sight block, and the dust cover is riveted directly too the rail. The hinge is well built, the problem is the actual dust cover is sometimes poorly attached to the rail. I fear the AK-12 will have similar problems when it's mass produced.

    On a positive note, if you get one with good rivets and a strait rail, it's actually a quality setup.

    the first stock shown with the AK12 as we know it now had length adjustment, plus rifle butt angle adjustment capabilities as well as a moving cheek piece for scopes.

    And for some reason it vanished on the newer variants.

    Lots of target shooting rifles have barrel weights to harmonise the vibrations when firing.

    This isn't a target shooting rifle, it's a service rifle. Some man or women has to carry it around all day. Handling and weight are important considerations.

    Of course they could do better, but they have to be able to mass produce these rifles and SMGs and LMGs and sniper rifles for a reasonable price and on time. Conservative is not a dirty word in military circles.

    I don't disagree. The AK-12 may not be perfect, but it is a economical design. Certain features may help one variant, but complicate others.

    Austin wrote:MIC: two machine guns passed state tests for equipment "Warrior"


    Board member of the Military-Industrial Commission of the Russian Federation Oleg Martianov said that during the trial operation machines AEK-971 and AK-12 will be decided by departments, where they will be delivered.

    Excellent news. It'll be interesting to see who adopts each rifle.

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