MiG-29/ΜiG-35 Fulcrum: News

RIP  

Long time lurker first time poster, but I thankful to be able to find such a wealth of information here.  My first question for you guys:  Would any MiG-29M2 ordered from the introduction of the MiG-29MRCA (2003/2004) to the resent day have been a new build aircraft, or would they have been refurbished older examples such as the 28 MiG-29SMTs that Algeria rejected in 2007? (now flying for the Russians I believe).  

  I know that Syria had ordered MiG-29M/M2s but that their delivery had been delayed due to the conflict there, are these aircraft new builds based on the Indian MiG-29K/Kub?  

 Finally, are these these MiGs compatible with western targeting pods such as the Thales Damocles that Malaysia uses on the Su-30MKM?  I know that MiG was enhancing their A2G capacities significantly from the MiG-29SMT onwards, and was wondering if such advanced strike capabilities were available for new build MiG-29M2s.  

The Saxon

 To the Forum! 

(To be honest, this isn't a topic I know a whole ton on. So I might need to be corrected.)

I believe that the MiG-29M2 could be a whole new aircraft and/or an "upgrade package" like the original MiG-29M

If the Syrians do receive the M2 variant, they would probably be new aircraft (?). As they would not be an upgrade of Syria's current MiG-29 fleet.

My guess is that the M2's are compatible with "targeting pods", but I know that they don't come standard. The SMT variant is built to be "flexible" when it comes to avionics. So, this is something I'm not sure about. 

I know that Syria had ordered MiG-29M/M2s but that their delivery had been delayed due to the conflict there, are these aircraft new builds based on the Indian MiG-29K/Kub?

Exactly. The K/KUB is the new generation airframe that forms the base for the land based MiG-29M/M2 and MiG-35. And yes, if MiG-35 would have been selected, all 126 would have been new built, very similar in appearance to the K/KUB or M/M2, AND at a fraction of the Rafale's cost! Finally, i'm sure the Damocles pod can be integrated if demanded.

Ok, that makes sense. It also means I was wrong...  

Thanks for correcting me!

As a long term lurker you might have noticed out section on members rules and introductions.

Too late now, but your first post should have been an introduction in the introductions section.

Please post an introduction there at your earliest convenience..

Regarding your questions:

Would any MiG-29M2 ordered from the introduction of the MiG-29MRCA (2003/2004) to the resent day have been a new build aircraft, or would they have been refurbished older examples such as the 28 MiG-29SMTs that Algeria rejected in 2007? (now flying for the Russians I believe).

the MiG-29M2 is the basis for a new structural design of the MiG-29, so it is not an upgrade because there are no previously mass produced versions to base the upgrade on.

The SMT is an upgrade intended to improve older models to MiG-29M like standard depending on the model.

When Algeria ordered MiG-29SMTs they knew it is a upgrade applied to existing production aircraft... their complaints basically started when Sukhoi offered Flankers for the same price MIG was selling Fulcrums... at which point the Algerians rejected the smaller lighter aircraft for the larger more capable types.

the MRCA would have involved 16 new build MiGs from Russia and the remaining aircraft (110) assembled and built in India... and at a fraction of the cost of Rafales too BTW.

I know that Syria had ordered MiG-29M/M2s but that their delivery had been delayed due to the conflict there, are these aircraft new builds based on the Indian MiG-29K/Kub?

The MiG-29M2 and MiG-29K2 are either not in service with anyone or are brand new and so using an existing MiG-29M2 or MiG-29K2 to upgrade is not an option. there are no production MiG-35s, so if you want a MiG-29M2, a MiG-29K2, or MiG-35 they will have to be new builds.

Conversely the old model MiG-29 is no longer in production so if you want a MiG-29SMT then it has to be a rebuild.

Finally, are these these MiGs compatible with western targeting pods such as the Thales Damocles that Malaysia uses on the Su-30MKM? I know that MiG was enhancing their A2G capacities significantly from the MiG-29SMT onwards, and was wondering if such advanced strike capabilities were available for new build MiG-29M2s.

MiG-29s from the M model onwards (ie from 1988) were designed with a fully digital data bus and onboard computer network, so yes... Damocles should be able to be integrated... just a question of writing the drivers so the existing hardware and software and displays and controls work with it.

Of course they are working hard on a range of aircraft mounted pods as well as integrated systems for targeting air and ground targets, so it might not make sense to add Damocles when you could add the sensor suite fitted to the MiG-35.

I believe that the MiG-29M2 could be a whole new aircraft and/or an "upgrade package" like the original MiG-29M

Pretty much correct.

If the Syrians do receive the M2 variant, they would probably be new aircraft (?). As they would not be an upgrade of Syria's current MiG-29 fleet.

Correct too. The existing MiGs could get an SMT upgrade or be swapped for more M2s.

My guess is that the M2's are compatible with "targeting pods", but I know that they don't come standard. The SMT variant is built to be "flexible" when it comes to avionics. So, this is something I'm not sure about.

Correct too.

Ok, that makes sense. It also means I was wrong...

Not really. the M2 and K2 and 35 all share the same airframe that is new and different from previous airframes and are the only airframes currently in production.

new build has to be M2, K2, or 35 therefore. SMT is an upgrade and can be applied to older model aircraft.

In many ways the 35 is the upgraded design with all the bells and whistles.... so I suspect the K2 could get 35 features like AESA etc as could the M2.

As it stands the K2 is naval model while M2 is good standard and 35 is best available

Ok GarryB, thanks for correcting me on how correct I really was...

Does anyone know when Syria will be receiving their new MiG's? My guess would be after the civil war ends, but who knows when or if they will even be delivered. 

We likely wont find out till they are delivered...

BTW regarding the original MiG-29M the main difference between that aircraft and the aircraft before it was that of the way they use space inside the aircraft.

You might have seen close up photos of early model MiG-29s and the fit between the panels was relatively poor... there were gaps and the skin wasn't perfectly smooth.

A critical factor here is that the skin was just a skin so the skin over a compartment that was used for fuel will have a few gaps in it but it didn't matter because inside that compartment was a fuel tank that contained the fuel. It also didn't matter for aerodynamics for the same reason golf balls have dents in them rather than have them perfectly smooth.

When air flows over the surface of a golf ball or a MiG-29s wing the air right at the surface of the ball or plane is actually rather chaotic and is called the boundry layer. If the layer is smooth it does not stick to the surface and leaves the ball at its edge so the drag volume is measured to the edge of the ball. With dimples or an irregular surface the air sticks to the surface for a big and only leaves the surface after it has travelled around the ball or the aircraft surface... which means the drag volume is reduced which lowers drag and improves flight performance.

The huge breakthrough for the M model MiG-29, which first flew in 1988 BTW, was to use a wielded skin of lighter stronger materials. Because it was wielded rather than riveted the compartments inside the structure were sealed so you didn't need extra weight like fuel tanks as the skin formed the outer surface of the fuel tank.

This made the aircraft lighter and stronger and all of a sudden any sealed section of structure could be used as a fuel tank.

The Fly by wire system also mean no need for hydraulic pipes and structures throughout the air frame.

The MiG-29S was the late model production aircraft and the SM added improved avionics and weapon options, while the T was added the hump back for extra fuel. These upgrades could be applied to previous models of Fulcrum, but production of those models has ended.

If you want a Fulcrum now there is the MiG-29M2 and the carrier based version the MiG-29K2, and soon we will see the MiG-35 enter service with the Russian AF.

The Indian MRCA saw the MiG-35 developed, but after its rejection the Russian AF has made a few unknown demands and will start to receive the aircraft in 2016 or so.

Honestly the new MiG-29M/35 doesn't have the greatest looking airframe gaps either, compared to Sukhois latest.

May i respectfully recommend that this topic should be moved in for instance the VVS section? Thank you.

Honestly the new MiG-29M/35 doesn't have the greatest looking airframe gaps either, compared to Sukhois latest.

Would suggest you post evidence... few of the photos I have of either aircraft are close ups, but the few I have showing the unpainted aircraft show very smooth surfaces like this example with the combination of yellow composite materials with no gaps at all.

I have been waiting for the MiG-35 since the Indian Expo till now. Quite a long time with very little information but full of rumors... both about the project and the MiG company.

Hope that the MiG-35 purchase will not be postponed again...

These lines from Austin's posts in the VVS topic are interesting, what are they referring to? Do they talk about legacy 9.13/9.13S MiG-29 upgardes? 10-15 years puts in to 2025-2030, which is the length of time the i would expect the SMTs to serve, but the legacy ones would be over 40 years by then!

We are engaged in a deep modernization of the MiG-29, Su-27, Su-25 - said in a briefing Commander.

The Russian air force will continue upgrade efforts on the MiG-29 fleet so as to keep them in service for “another 10 to 15 years, maybe more.”

From here:
https://www.russiadefence.net/t1920p930-vvs-news-photos

Chances are the F-16 will still be in service by then, so at least Russia won't be the only large country with 40 yo planes... Plus, MiG upgrades tend to be pretty substantial.

RuAF have to replace around 250 MiG-29 fighters. This is not such big number to replace with new build MiGs. In coming two years RuAF will receive additional 16 new MiG-29SMT and in this time MiG-35 will be ready for production.

250 mig29 would include various airframes that've been rotated in and out of reserve status over the last two decades. I don't think all these will be replaced on one-to-one basis.

100ish mig35 to be ordered in a year or two, start production by 2017/2018 and be all delivered by 2025 or so. Remainder of the mig29 force will be 50 smt/ubt. Of course, if one counts the naval migs then one might get to a total of 175 airframes to soldier on past 2025, once all legacy soviet migs are retired.

Next year Russian MoD will receive 10 MiG-29K and 8 MiG-29SMT. If you count here Indian MiGs, there will be more than 20 MiGs produced next year. 250 new MiGs in 10 years is 25 planes per year and I see no problem to build 250 new MiG-35 fighters.

They could do that... Or they could (possibly) upgrade some, and build some newer ones. That way they could receive the planes sooner, and probably save some money at the same time. Even better, they could build 250 MiGs and upgrade some of the newer orginal 250 that need to be replaced.

Don't think there are that many legacy MiG-29s still operational, probably the numbers now for 9.12/9.13/9.13S/UB (not counting SMT/UBM from Kursk here) are about 150. Operational units are as far as i know still flying them in Armenia and at Millerovo, the Domna ones they are replaced with Su-30SM now no? Training units flying MiG-29s are at Armavir (still with some 9.12!), Kushevskaya and Lipetsk (Strizhi) right, please correct me if i'm wrong.

The talk now seems to center around 40 MiG-35 (presumably by 2020) although imo 48 would be a nice number for 2 regiments (say Millerovo and Armenia- btw is there just a squadron or a full regiment there in Armenia?), would be nice to have another lot of 48 built past 2020 to get the total numbers to about 100.

I can image the training units can be handed down all the good condition 9.13/9.13S/UB that are replaced by MiG-35, the second hypothetical lot of 48 replacing say the SMT/UBMs which will replace themselves the last legacy ones in the training units after 2020.

- That also sounds like a good idea... Another option is if Russia could "upgrade" some of them and sell them to a smaller, maybe poorer country.

Has anyone that speaks Russian read the original quote?

I suspect that Deep modernisation actually means Su-35, MiG-35, and the new model Su-25 that they were working on, rather than the SU-27SM, MiG-29SMT, and Su-25SM2 or 3.

Upgrading domestic models with all their secret IFF systems and bits for carrying and using tactical nukes etc, would require further upgrades before they could be exported... existing models could be given an export upgrade to the customers request and then sold... rather than upgraded... used.... upgraded again and sold. IMHO.

I (cannot speak Russian therefore have to use Google Translate and) failed to find the original Russian quote, but there are some related info on RIA Novosti and ITAR-TASS.

RIA Novosti Russian version, article "Рогозин предложил спустя 20 лет возобновить производство МиГ-31"

RIA Novosti, 8 August 2014 wrote:Он также сообщил, что "ждет большого заказа на новый самолет МиГ-35". "По этому самолету сейчас завершаются все бумажные процедуры, после чего мы надеемся приступить к серьезному производству", — добавил вице-премьер, отметив, что у МиГ-35 огромный экспортный потенциал.

ITAR-TASS Russian version, article "Главком ВВС: перехватчик на смену МиГ-31 поступит в российские войска до 2025 года"

ITAR-TASS, 11 August 2014 wrote:Судьба МиГ-29

ВВС России не планируют отказываться от истребителей МиГ-29, поскольку эти самолеты обладают достаточным запасом для модернизации, чтобы оставаться в строю еще минимум 10-15 лет. По словам главкома, у МиГ-29 "не меньший запас, чем у других самолетов - чтобы его модернизировать, и он оставался в строю минимум 10-15 лет, а то и больше".

"Те самолеты, которые выпущены в Советском Союзе, устарели морально, есть износ двигателей. Но, во всяком случае пока, замечаний к планеру, к двигателям и оборудованию особых нет. Да, есть отказы, но они незначительны и позволяют с успехом завершить полет", - сказал Бондарев.

В будущем ВВС России планируют заменять МиГ-29 самолетами МиГ-29СМТ и ожидают новейшие МиГ-35, которые "также в скором времени появятся" в войсках, заключил главком.

Basically D. O. Rogozin said that MiG-35 have a huge potential for export and he expected a big contract for this plane since the development of MiG-35 is currently at the very final phase and the serial production of this plane will be very soon.

And V. N. Bondarev claimed that the Russian Air Force is planning to retired all the MiG-29/29SMT and they are expected MiG-35 in a very near future. But he also claimed that the Air Force won't abandon the MiG-29 series. He claimed that although the existing MiG-29s are outdated but the technical problem are minor and can be fixed. MiG-29 is expected to be in service for at least 10-15 years more.

It is quite certain that we will see the MiG-35 soon. If there is no unexpected problem.

It all depends on the new specs and requirements from the Russian AF.

I do suspect the MiG-35 will be the first Russian Fighter with AESA radar... just like the MiG-31 was the first Soviet fighter with a PESA electronically scanned array radar.

Depend, which will be first delivered to RuAF. Maybe it will be MiG-35, maybe PAK-FA. Both are expected around 2016.