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    MiG-29/ΜiG-35 Fulcrum: News

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    Post  Austin Sun Jun 02, 2013 8:35 am

    Lantrin does low level navigation and target detection/attack in single pod does this pod on Mig-29M2 does the same ?
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    Post  Department Of Defense Sun Jun 02, 2013 9:33 am

    By that logic the USAF should have hundreds of C-5s and not bother with any C-130s.

    Your analogy is misplaced . The C 5 was introduced a decade after the C 130 for (a) heavy ; (b) intercontinental-range strategic airlift capability

    Since these features were missing in the C 130 the C 5 was designed .

    The Su 35 already exists . The Su 30 SM already exists . So where is the need for a MIG 35 ?

    A Mig-35 is a much better replacement for a Mig-29 than a big expensive Su-35 is.

    Ok , but then you have the SU 30 SM which is much affordable than the SU 35 . Compare the procurement cost of the SU 30 SM with the Mig 35 and you will get what I am saying .


    They have production capacity that is not being used... a Mig-29 replacement is useful


    Granted that a replacement for the naval version of the Mig 29 is useful until a naval version of the FGFA makes it's debut .


    No need to base heavy, expensive, super-duper Su-35 or PAK-FA so close to the border. MiG-35 will do just fine there.
    Keep the more expensive longer legged aircraft (Su-30, Su-35, Su-34, PAK-FA) at he rear and deploy the more expendable, simpler, less complicated and less expensive to acquire /operate aircraft (MiG-35 and Su-25) at the forward airbases.


    Sorry to burst your bubble .The Chinese keep their SU 30s close to the Japanese border . The Vietnamese keep their Su 30s close to their Chinese borders as do the Indians .

    Last heard there is nothing to write home about Turkey's air defense system . But China & Japan have great air defenses.
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    Post  medo Sun Jun 02, 2013 9:37 am

    Austin wrote:Lantrin does low level navigation and target detection/attack in single pod does this pod on Mig-29M2 does the same ?

    No, Lantirn have two pods, check F-15E and F-16C equipped with Lantirn.
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    Post  medo Sun Jun 02, 2013 9:43 am

    The Su 35 already exists . The Su 30 SM already exists . So where is the need for a MIG 35 ?

    In my opinion Su-35 and PAK FA will be more air defense fighters under VKO command, while Su-30SM and Mig-35 will be more multirole tactical air force fighters, where Su-30SM could also do the job of Su-24, because I doubt RuAF will get as many Su-34 as they have Su-24.
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    Post  Cyberspec Sun Jun 02, 2013 11:10 am

    Austin wrote:Lantrin does low level navigation and target detection/attack in single pod does this pod on Mig-29M2 does the same ?

    Apparently it does in conjunction with onboard systems (if I understood the brochure correctly). It can target 4 ground/sea targets at once and can identify the type of target/s
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    Post  GarryB Sun Jun 02, 2013 11:23 am

    Lantrin does low level navigation and target detection/attack in single pod does this pod on Mig-29M2 does the same ?

    Most likely, though the Mig-35 is supposed to have -5th gen avionics, so it probably contributes to the systems data collection capacity, but with sensor fusion the pilot will likely just use information without knowing exactly which specific sensor is collecting it.

    Likely would also allow real time data be sent to HQ for recon etc.

    Nice find....Flateric and Paralay have solved the mystery...it's a ground target detection pod said to be equivalent to "Lantirn"

    Just looking at that I would say that this podded system is actually likely the system fitted to the Mig-35 that can be used on the Mig-29M2 or other model Migs like the Mig-29K2 for example.

    Your analogy is misplaced . The C 5 was introduced a decade after the C 130 for (a) heavy ; (b) intercontinental-range strategic airlift capability

    No it isn't. The Mig-29 was developed for the frontal aviation portion of the Russian Air Force as a point defence interceptor with some dumb ground attack capability for a swing role to replace the Mig-23. The Su-27 was developed for the PVO as a long range interceptor and escort for strike and bomber aircraft.

    Different roles, different parts of the military.

    Those different role remain... the smaller lighter Mig is cheaper to operate in situations where 4,000km range is simply not needed on a daily basis.

    They both have inflight refuelling so the only justification for wanting the Flanker over the Mig is that the Flanker is larger and can cover a larger area... and while it is true a Flanker can cover the area of two Migs... two Migs can cover that airspace better than one Flanker can.

    Ok , but then you have the SU 30 SM which is much affordable than the SU 35 . Compare the procurement cost of the SU 30 SM with the Mig 35 and you will get what I am saying .

    The larger Su-30SM costs more to operate... it is basic physics... a big heavy aircraft costs more to push around the sky than a smaller lighter aircraft.

    Granted that a replacement for the naval version of the Mig 29 is useful until a naval version of the FGFA makes it's debut .

    A replacement for all the Mig-29s in service also makes sense and the investment in the Mig-35 means that a light 5th gen fighter will be more developed as the company making it has more real experience with leading edge technologies.

    Sorry to burst your bubble .The Chinese keep their SU 30s close to the Japanese border . The Vietnamese keep their Su 30s close to their Chinese borders as do the Indians .

    Last heard there is nothing to write home about Turkey's air defense system . But China & Japan have great air defenses.

    There is a huge political implication when you base Su-35s or PAK FAs near an international border... especially if they are replacing old model Mig-29s.

    Plus the larger Flankers cost more to operate... and if you want to use Flankers instead of Migs... you will have to wait a couple of years and compete with export production schedules too.

    In my opinion Su-35 and PAK FA will be more air defense fighters under VKO command, while Su-30SM and Mig-35 will be more multirole tactical air force fighters, where Su-30SM could also do the job of Su-24, because I doubt RuAF will get as many Su-34 as they have Su-24.

    They certainly wont need as many Su-34s as they have Su-24s.

    I suspect the Su-35 and Mig-35 will make the multirole missions seamless, so training for such will be much easier than with previous fighters and upgrades.

    Remember for long range Su-24 missions they will also have Backfires...
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    Post  a89 Mon Jun 03, 2013 10:34 am

    Those different role remain... the smaller lighter Mig is cheaper to operate in situations where 4,000km range is simply not needed on a daily basis.

    very often, fighter aircraft are used for air policing. For this task, the MiG-29M2/35 is very well suited. As others have mentioned, there is a large number of MiG-29 that will need replacement, advanced Fulcrum will fit very well. It also gives impetus to an aircraft which can be exported.

    The prospects of RSK MiG have changed for the better in the last 10 years. These are the latest contracts:

    Russian navy: 24 aircraft.
    Russian Air Force: 25 (+12 optional), contract to be signed.
    Indian Navy: 45 aircraft (20 delivered).
    Serbia: 6 aircraft.
    Myanmar: 20 aircraft to be built from stocks. Soviet stock of 9.13 airframes now exhausted.
    Syria: 12 aircraft
    Siria: 12 MiG-29M2 (+12 optional).

    Total: 132 aircraft.

    I would appreciate if others could provide more detail on other contracts (Sudam, Bangladesh...)

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    Post  Austin Sat Jun 08, 2013 6:21 pm

    MiG Awaits MiG-35 Order from Russian MoD
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    Post  sepheronx Sat Jun 08, 2013 6:44 pm

    MiG-35 order is much needed. The fact that the aircraft introduces 5th gen technology as well as being the only aircraft so far that can be built in numbers, fielding an AESA radar. They need to purchase such technology or the technology will end up the way of the ghost as companies cannot keep producing something or keeping the project afloat if no one purchases it, and unfortunately for Russia, this technology is very important. The Lack of orders for MiG-35 but orders for Su-35S is quite troubling in some respects, as even though the Irbis-E radar is more powerful, the Zhuk-A is technologically more advanced and thus, more funds to it, means more work can be done to improve it.
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    Post  GarryB Sun Jun 09, 2013 8:51 am

    Russia is investing enormous amounts of funding for the development and production of AESA radar components... Russia will have AESA radars in fighter aircraft whether they buy Mig-35s or not.

    Having said that, buying from Mig will fund two competing fighter companies that are currently different departments of the same company, but maintaining the broad skills and capabilities and production capacity is vastly more useful than having one fighter type that does everything.
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    Post  Austin Sun Jun 09, 2013 9:02 am

    Buying Mig-35/Mig-29M2 and making it operational in RuAF would have a very significant impact on the export potential of these aircraft in coming decade.

    One of the reason Rosoborexport has officially mentioned why Russia lost the MMRCA contest was Mig-35 was not operational in RuAF , so induction of Mig-35 even if it means 2 squadron would greatly boost the chance of export potential of modern Mig-29 variant.
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    Post  sepheronx Mon Jun 10, 2013 1:53 pm

    GarryB wrote:Russia is investing enormous amounts of funding for the development and production of AESA radar components... Russia will have AESA radars in fighter aircraft whether they buy Mig-35s or not.

    Having said that, buying from Mig will fund two competing fighter companies that are currently different departments of the same company, but maintaining the broad skills and capabilities and production capacity is vastly more useful than having one fighter type that does everything.

    Same company as UAC, but they are competing. And having that competition internally, could guarentee better quality with more advancements as the two companies try to compete for contracts either domestically or abroad.

    I also understand that Russia is investing a lot in AESA technology, no doubt. But, funding MiG by purchasing their aircrafts will not only allow people to work (which in turn buy other goods), but also keep skilled workers (like you already said) and more importantly: Phazotron will get funding and as well, Zhuk-AE could very well come into effect and other countries could end up buying it.

    Like Austin said: if they fielded the MiG-35, they could potentially get more customers for the aircraft. At that, the technology in it is very important and could very well lead Mikoyan to coming out with a LO/VLO airframe using same technologies applied from MiG-35.
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    Post  George1 Thu Jul 04, 2013 7:36 am

    Russia will place an order for the Mikoyan MiG-35 'Fulcrum F' multirole fighter aircraft in the first half of 2013, the CEO of Mikoyan believed
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    Post  GarryB Thu Jul 04, 2013 10:18 am

    It is July... we are already in the second half of 2013...
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    Post  Viktor Thu Jul 04, 2013 1:37 pm

    Laughing 
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    Post  Viktor Thu Jul 04, 2013 9:27 pm

    Here is interesting development. MIG will put two Zhuk-A radar with detection range of over 160 km (1100 T/R module) on two MIG-29.

    "MiG" allocate two MiG-29 to test the "Zhuk-A"

    Tests airborne radar (radar) with an active phased array (AESA) is scheduled for the MiG-29
    Russian Aircraft Corporation "MiG" to allocate two MiG-29 for trials with AESA radar "Zhuk-A" development group "Fazotron-NIIP." Flight tests with AESA radar "Zhuk-A" will be held for the benefit of the installation of the radar on multi-role fighters MiG-35, the contract for the supply of Russian Air Force which will be signed in the near future. Tests "Zhuk-A" will take several months. Radar can detect up to 60 targets at a range of over 160 kilometers. It allows you to simultaneously attack eight goals and track up to 30.

    LINK
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    Post  Stealthflanker Fri Jul 05, 2013 11:27 am

    Viktor wrote:Here is interesting development. MIG will put two Zhuk-A radar with detection range of over 160 km (1100 T/R module) on two MIG-29.

    "MiG" allocate two MiG-29 to test the "Zhuk-A"

    Tests airborne radar (radar) with an active phased array (AESA) is scheduled for the MiG-29
    Russian Aircraft Corporation "MiG" to allocate two MiG-29 for trials with AESA radar "Zhuk-A" development group "Fazotron-NIIP." Flight tests with AESA radar "Zhuk-A" will be held for the benefit of the installation of the radar on multi-role fighters MiG-35, the contract for the supply of Russian Air Force which will be signed in the near future. Tests "Zhuk-A" will take several months. Radar can detect up to 60 targets at a range of over 160 kilometers. It allows you to simultaneously attack eight goals and track up to 30.

    LINK

    that's good advancement over previous Zhuk AE Demonstrator which only have 680 modules respekt  and apparently the computing power is also increased.

    Anyway i wonder if Phazotron also produce AESA for Su-27's

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    Post  GarryB Sat Jul 06, 2013 9:06 am

    that's good advancement over previous Zhuk AE Demonstrator which only have 680 modules respekt and apparently the computing power is also increased.

    The earlier model with 680 modules was because of the size of the modules and the amount of wiring and computer boxes needed for the AESA design taking up space so the antenna had to be moved forward and so there was less room for modules.

    The newer modules are smaller and more compact and can be moved further back where a wider array can be fitted.

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    Post  mack8 Sat Aug 10, 2013 12:08 am

    If not here, then where... is there any recent info regarding the MiG-35 deal for VVS ? What is the situation, why it hasn't been signed yet ? Will it be indeed signed? Thanks.
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    Post  flamming_python Sat Aug 10, 2013 8:02 am

    You know, with the Kuznetsov modernisation moved back due to the Syria crisis; there might not be any point in buying MiG-29Ks for it. Because by the time its finished - the PAK-FA should just be entering the RuAF. Of course the naval carrier variant would not be ready. But it might make sense to try and accelerate that program, make it run parallel with the current one so that the first carrier-borne fighters would be ready before 2020. The Su-33s may last for another 6-7 years I'd imagine.

    Or does the plan call for MiG-29Ks and naval PAK-FAs serving together with each other?
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    Post  GarryB Sat Aug 10, 2013 10:43 am

    The production preparation of Mig-29Ks has pretty much been paid for with the Indian initial and follow on orders, so it makes sense to buy them anyway because the new carrier simulator in Russia is now available for use so training can continue while the K is being upgraded.

    I rather suspect that the PAK FA-K  will be expensive initially and so perhaps a few might be developed... folding wings and increased strength undercarriage and of course a tail hook wont take forever to develop, but tests to make sure it is sturdy enough and protected from salt spray might take some time...

    Regarding the Mig-35 deal... when they are ready I guess.

    The Mig-35 is not totally ready for service... there will be further testing to do before they have a serial bird they can start producing.


    Last edited by GarryB on Sun Aug 11, 2013 11:14 am; edited 1 time in total
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    Post  sepheronx Sat Aug 10, 2013 2:52 pm

    They might as well just continue on with MiG-29M as it is ready, concentrate on getting the Zhuk-A with its 1100T/R module fitted to the MiG-29M/M2, and would make a wonderful upgrade for other nations who have MiG-29's, as it would fit on the MiG-29K as well.

    Phazotron isn't worried about the sales of MiG-35 for its AESA radar, since Ka-52K is being fitted with the Zhuk-A radar, so they will get orders.  But there are a LOT of MiG-29's in service, and giving them at least up to 200km detection/tracking range would make them equal to the F-16Block62's and very formidable aircrafts, cheap, which is really needed.

    There is lots of talk about MiG-35 to enter Russian service, yet no orders have been placed yet. I am starting to think that 1) mod isn't interested and 2) Mikoyan are holding onto a dream. Problem is, MoD will be kicking themselves in the arse if they do not have a large arsenal of modernized systems capable of dealing with outside threats, and not having much for skilled workers in the field of making the jets, cause lets face it, a company cannot survive with no orders. Mikoyan is entirely reliant on foreign orders, and modernizing some aircrafts here and there for Russia. Russia on the other hand, has a massive territory and are quite in desperate need of newer aircrafts. MiG-35's would be perfect for Kaliningrad region and air patrolling in Abkhazia/South Oessetia, and Armenia, where they are most needed. Turkish F-16's are far more advanced and capable than majority of MiG-29's in Russian service, and that is really sad.

    A MiG-35 on the other hand, would close the gap. Increasing detection range of Air to Air from the approximate 100 to 120km range to 160 - 200km range would be beneficial, its longer endurance and much better EW/ECM/ECCM feature, especially from the Zhuk-A radar, and would pose a great advantage against many countries and will be quite capable of dealing with Turkish F-16's if ever the need arises (doubt it, but just saying). As well, it would mean more aircrafts in RuAF are capable of dealing with modern threats and could very well be used if in case shit really hits the fan. With what they got now, they are barely able to fly.

    Although, maybe MoD is just testing the waters right now (regardless of the big amount being used for purchasing equipment). But 60 aircrafts here (Su-30SM), 124 aircrafts there (Su-34) and 45 orders for Su-35 is just pathetic. Only real orders that made the most sense was the MiG-31BM upgrades, cause the MiG-31 is a very important aircraft. Su-35 should have received more orders, as well as Su-34, as Russia is in desperate need to replace their frontal aviation with newer jets to face newer threats, and Su-24 really needs to start being replaced.
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    Post  TR1 Sat Aug 10, 2013 9:42 pm

    The Zhuk-A is only being fitted in MiG-29M generation airframes and spin offs.

    I have seen no indication of it being fitted into the legacy 9-12/9-13 aiframe, and export birds are all (save MiG-29K) so far the first gen airframes.

    Also 124 Su-34s is pathetic? lol. You might wanna check Russia's budget.
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    Post  GarryB Sun Aug 11, 2013 11:48 am

    They might as well just continue on with MiG-29M as it is ready, concentrate on getting the Zhuk-A with its 1100T/R module fitted to the MiG-29M/M2, and would make a wonderful upgrade for other nations who have MiG-29's, as it would fit on the MiG-29K as well.
    Because the Mig-35 is a better and more capable aircraft, so it makes rather more sense to buy the more sophisticated and capable aircraft and if they can't make it fast enough buy a few of the cheaper Mig-29M2 models to get numbers up.

    That way Mig gets to keep working with state of the art capabilities which makes the Russian AF a more potent force.

    Phazotron isn't worried about the sales of MiG-35 for its AESA radar, since Ka-52K is being fitted with the Zhuk-A radar, so they will get orders.
    Production numbers and production experience is the only way to reduce the cost of AESA modules... making AESA radars for Mig-35s speeds up the process of getting such radar deployed as standard systems...

    But there are a LOT of MiG-29's in service, and giving them at least up to 200km detection/tracking range would make them equal to the F-16Block62's and very formidable aircrafts, cheap, which is really needed.
    Most in service Mig-29s are worn out from use and lack of support/upgrades.

    Makes more sense to invest in newbuilds.

    But 60 aircrafts here (Su-30SM), 124 aircrafts there (Su-34) and 45 orders for Su-35 is just pathetic. Only real orders that made the most sense was the MiG-31BM upgrades, cause the MiG-31 is a very important aircraft. Su-35 should have received more orders, as well as Su-34, as Russia is in desperate need to replace their frontal aviation with newer jets to face newer threats, and Su-24 really needs to start being replaced.
    Production is really only just beginning, there is no immediate threat, no urgency to throw money away. The Su-34 is a significantly better aircraft than the Su-24 and in addition to the Su-34 to replace the Su-24 on long range strike aircraft there is now the Tu-22M3M and the Tu-95SM16M and of course the Tu-160M which are all now being upgraded to conventional precision theatre strike capability.

    There is no point in replacing the air fleet over night and then suddenly have nothing for the aircraft factories to do for the next 5 years. Producing in small numbers initially with a gradual build up in numbers and you ignore exports which also have to be built makes sense from a management perspective. Producing at an enormous rate requires high investment in skills and production facilities and materials... but what do these factories do when the order has been filled?

    Production over a longer more sustainable period makes rather more sense... if you made 500 Su-35s this year they would sit out in the open because there would be not enough pilots to fly them, not enough hangar space to store them and not enough fuel and advanced weapons even if they were needed.

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    Post  sepheronx Sat Aug 17, 2013 4:15 pm

    Russian Defense Ministry Delays Deal on MiG-35 Jets – Report

    MOSCOW, August 17 (RIA Novosti) – The Russian Defense Ministry has postponed the purchase of 37 MiG-35 fighter jets until 2016, Kommersant daily reported Saturday.
    The ministry was originally due to sign the purchase agreement with MiG in June, but last month the aircraft corporation's general director Sergei Korotkov told RIA Novosti that the contract had still not been signed.

    The ministry will now sign the contract in 2016, thereby putting off spending about 37 billion rubles ($1.1 billion) from the state armament program budget to a later payment period, as requested by the Finance Ministry, Kommersant said.

    The newspaper cited a Defense Ministry source as saying that the ministry had not been able to issue the order over delays in drawing up the design.

    “At the same time as that was going on, we received a proposal from the Finance Ministry to delay spending until 2016 part of the funds allocated within the state arms program for 2014-2016,” the newspaper quoted the source as saying.

    “After analyzing [the situation] we made the decision to put back the purchase of the MiG-35s,” the source said, adding that the number of jets the ministry plans to buy – 37 – remains unchanged.
    The Mikoyan MiG-35 (Fulcrum-F) is a 4++ generation fighter jet and a modification of the MiG-29M. It is equipped with air-to-air and air-to-surface guided missiles, as well as the Zhuk-A radar system.
    Kommersant also reported that MiG may soon receive an order for MiG-29SMT fighter jets from the Defense Ministry, citing the source as saying that both sides were “ready to consider the purchase of such planes for delivery by 2016.”
    I don't understand the bolded part.  Drawing up design?  What?  They cannot or did not come up with an agreement to purchase the jets?  Design of the jet itself is still being worked on?  Cause 3 years delay to purchase these jets are kinda...long, since the funding exists and $1B isn't that much from the total being purchased already (and those MiGs are definitely in need).  But good news is that they are still going to go with the purchase of MiG-35 and as well, more SMT's.


    Last edited by sepheronx on Sat Aug 17, 2013 4:25 pm; edited 1 time in total

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