AlfaT8 Mon Dec 28, 2015 12:20 am
Ok, i was holding back on entering this dicussion becuase i wasn't to firmiliar with the agreements that Russia and India had signed, luckily our friend MAX was, here's what he wrote:
max steel wrote:Russia offers India new Pak-Fa deal
Russia has made a new offer on the delivery of Sukhoi T-50 (PAK FA) fighter jets to India under the joint fifth-generation fighter aircraft (FGFA) initiative.
Under the new offer, India will have to pay $3.7 billion, instead of $6 billion, for the technological know-how and three prototypes of PAK FA fighters. The proposal awaits a decision from Prime Minister Narendra Modi, when he meets Russian President Vladimir Putin for the annual India-Russia summit this week.
India and Russia had signed an inter-governmental agreement to co-develop and co-produce the FGFA in 2007, which was followed by the $295 million preliminary design contract in December 2010. Modelled on the successful Brahmos missile project, the project involves Russia’s Sukhoi Design Bureau and the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL). The overall FGFA project cost for making 127 single-seat fighters in India has been estimated to be around $30 billion.
The final design contract, under which both sides were to contribute an initial $6 billion each for prototype development and production, has not been signed between India and Russia so far. Meanwhile, Russia has gone ahead with the development of PAK FA and claims that it will enter service with the Russian Air Force in 2016, and enter serial production in 2017.
“Now that they already have the fighter, the Russians have made a revised offer to us. For $3.7 billion, they will give us all the technological know-how of making the fighter. We will also get three prototypes from them in that amount,” a senior defence ministry official said.
But the Indian Air Force (IAF) remains opposed to the idea. A senior IAF official said, “We are not in favour of the FGFA. The PAK FA fighter is too expensive at even this rate, and we are not sure of its capabilities.”
So apparently, India did not sign the agreement that would allow them to have some say on the PAK-FA project, nor did they contribute financially to it, but they did indeed sign the agreement for the FGFA which both will develop later.
As for the PAK-FA export not being up to Indian specs, that has nothing to do with Russia, it has everything to do with India accepting that fact and inducting it anyway, not because of delays, but because there French romance ended badly.
They couldn't develop the Tejas by their own, most of the technoligies were westerns copies. I can't see which 5 gen aircraft they will have with a lower cost than the Pak Fa. They choosed the Rafale because they thought they would get technology transfert but when Dassaut refused it, they reduced commandes. Now they doesn't have the choice. China and Pakistan will get their 5 gene really fast. Russia should ask for more money, develope it faster and sell them 250-300 of them. The more they produce, the less is the price. So they should ask 250-300 Pak Fa to produce locally (like the MKI) and stop spending money on new MKIs, Rafales and Tejas. It will replace all their aircrafts.
Correct, there is no other 5gen aircraft out there that India can acquire for a lower price(and that's to say nothing of tech transfers).
China sure, but i don't think Pakistan gonna get them anytime soon.
From what i read, Russia didn't get any money from India for the PAK-FA, but they did (or will get) for the FGFA later.
200-300 seems kinda high for a stopgap, nevertheless they're already moving with local assembly plan for PAK-FAs (or trying to anyway).
I disagree, more MKIs wouldn't hurt, as for Tejas regardless of how it turns out India must continue development of it's own indigenous fighter aircrafts.
Rafales were a waste, they only did it because then they could get the Mirage upgrades, which they originally wanted.
I have read they have invest 6 billions and they were unhappy because they couldn't have access to some technologies from russians.
200 - 300 is not much than what they want: 50 Pak Fa +144 FGFA. They reduced orders for Rafale and have 200 of the 270 MKI they commanded. So 300 Pak Fa is not so high.
If they take more MKI and less Pak Fa it would be good for Indians but not for Sukhoi. This is why I was saying Russians should insist on selling them Pak Fa.
I disagree about Pakistan. First, they could become the new Irak for USA. Now that they don't need them anymore for Afghan war and with their bad relations, USA could start a limited war against them. Plus they are a major ally of china.
Second, all technologies India buys, they buy too: missiles, navy, tanks, nuclear bombs ... So they will mostly buy J-31 (wich is the export 5 gen chinese fifhter AFAIK).
Yea, the thing is they didn't, apparently they never signed the final design contract, under which both sides were to contribute an initial $6 billion each.
That's the thing, they want the FGFA not so much the FA, but there in a rush so 50 is a good stopgap, until the FGFA is ready for production in 2020/21, and even Russia is predicting they'll have 55 FAs by 2020, so production wise there's no way that over a 100 aircrafts are gonna be produced before the FGFA is ready.
And how is more MKI's not good for Sukhoi??
Trust me Isos, there is no chance in Hell the U.S would go with the military option on Pakistan, Nukes do a good job at preventing that.
Introduction of the J-31 and also J-20 will happen around 2019/20, and that's for China, export of these aircrafts will come later, so overall India will be the First to receive 5th gen fighters.