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    PAK-FA, T-50: News #3

    Berkut
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    Post  Berkut on Sat Dec 26, 2015 8:41 pm

    max steel wrote:by the way can we expect Mig 1.44 revival(Good to see how Chinese making it work) ? It surely can kill F-22 , perhaps PAK-FA can compete against it.

    No because;

    A; It was POS
    B; MiG did compete for the PAK-FA tender (probably with something loosely based on 1.44) and lost so that is that.
    Isos
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    Post  Isos on Sat Dec 26, 2015 9:13 pm

    AlfaT8 wrote:Ok, i was holding back on entering this dicussion becuase i wasn't to firmiliar with the agreements that Russia and India had signed, luckily our friend MAX was, here's what he wrote:
    max steel wrote:Russia offers India new Pak-Fa deal

    Russia has made a new offer on the delivery of Sukhoi T-50 (PAK FA) fighter jets to India under the joint fifth-generation fighter aircraft (FGFA) initiative.
    Under the new offer, India will have to pay $3.7 billion, instead of $6 billion, for the technological know-how and three prototypes of PAK FA fighters. The proposal awaits a decision from Prime Minister Narendra Modi, when he meets Russian President Vladimir Putin for the annual India-Russia summit this week.

    India and Russia had signed an inter-governmental agreement to co-develop and co-produce the FGFA in 2007, which was followed by the $295 million preliminary design contract in December 2010. Modelled on the successful Brahmos missile project, the project involves Russia’s Sukhoi Design Bureau and the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL). The overall FGFA project cost for making 127 single-seat fighters in India has been estimated to be around $30 billion.

    The final design contract, under which both sides were to contribute an initial $6 billion each for prototype development and production, has not been signed between India and Russia so far. Meanwhile, Russia has gone ahead with the development of PAK FA and claims that it will enter service with the Russian Air Force in 2016, and enter serial production in 2017.

    “Now that they already have the fighter, the Russians have made a revised offer to us. For $3.7 billion, they will give us all the technological know-how of making the fighter. We will also get three prototypes from them in that amount,” a senior defence ministry official said.
    But the Indian Air Force (IAF) remains opposed to the idea. A senior IAF official said, “We are not in favour of the FGFA. The PAK FA fighter is too expensive at even this rate, and we are not sure of its capabilities.”
    https://www.russiadefence.net/t4195p150-russia-india-strategic-relationship-news

    So apparently, India did not sign the agreement that would allow them to have some say on the PAK-FA project, nor did they contribute financially to it, but they did indeed sign the agreement for the FGFA which both will develop later.

    As for the PAK-FA export not being up to Indian specs, that has nothing to do with Russia, it has everything to do with India accepting that fact and inducting it anyway, not because of delays, but because there French romance ended badly.

    They couldn't develop the Tejas by their own, most of the technoligies were westerns copies. I can't see which 5 gen aircraft they will have with a lower cost than the Pak Fa. They choosed the Rafale because they thought they would get technology transfert but when Dassaut refused it, they reduced commandes. Now they doesn't have the choice. China and Pakistan will get their 5 gene really fast. Russia should ask for more money, develope it faster and sell them 250-300 of them. The more they produce, the less is the price. So they should ask 250-300 Pak Fa to produce locally (like the MKI) and stop spending money on new MKIs, Rafales and Tejas. It will replace all their aircrafts.
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    Post  mack8 on Sat Dec 26, 2015 9:21 pm

    Berkut wrote:
    max steel wrote:by the way can we expect Mig 1.44 revival(Good to see how Chinese making it work) ? It surely can kill F-22 , perhaps PAK-FA can compete against it.

    No because;

    A; It was POS
    B; MiG did compete for the PAK-FA tender (probably with something loosely based on 1.44) and lost so that is that.

    The rumour is their PAK-FA submition was something like an updated MFI (maybe with LO  features?) but with side intakes, which then might have found it's way to China. Now i know you don't have the most flaterring opinion of the chinese (but i do, they have been doing a fantastic job lately), i don't think for a minute J-20 is a straight copy of that (it just doesn't "look" like a MiG imo), but it was used as a base configuration, as "inspiration" if you like.

    Anyway, hope to see some more advances for the PAK-FA program soon, seeing as the chinese apparently just rolled out the first production J-20.
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    Post  Berkut on Sat Dec 26, 2015 9:52 pm

    I dont think i have been particularly anti Chinese aviation to be honest. I just tend to view it in realistic light, like building a bunch of frames doesnt equal to a good weapon platform (as in J-20 case). They still havent been able to fully master building jet engines themselves (it is matter of time of course) and as to the frames Y-20 is for example Antonov developed and currently powered by fairly old Russian engines. Z-10 is Kamov developed frame and J-20 probably had a MiG hand in it in one way on another. J-11 family including J-15 etc is obviously copies and evolutions of Flankers. J-10 is well known to be based on LAVI with the Israeli teams blessing. L-15 was developed by Yakovlev (they even had a patent out that is exactly like L-15 design) on a chinese contract etc etc.
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    Post  AlfaT8 on Sat Dec 26, 2015 10:15 pm

    Isos wrote:
    AlfaT8 wrote:Ok, i was holding back on entering this dicussion becuase i wasn't to firmiliar with the agreements that Russia and India had signed, luckily our friend MAX was, here's what he wrote:
    max steel wrote:Russia offers India new Pak-Fa deal

    Russia has made a new offer on the delivery of Sukhoi T-50 (PAK FA) fighter jets to India under the joint fifth-generation fighter aircraft (FGFA) initiative.
    Under the new offer, India will have to pay $3.7 billion, instead of $6 billion, for the technological know-how and three prototypes of PAK FA fighters. The proposal awaits a decision from Prime Minister Narendra Modi, when he meets Russian President Vladimir Putin for the annual India-Russia summit this week.

    India and Russia had signed an inter-governmental agreement to co-develop and co-produce the FGFA in 2007, which was followed by the $295 million preliminary design contract in December 2010. Modelled on the successful Brahmos missile project, the project involves Russia’s Sukhoi Design Bureau and the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL). The overall FGFA project cost for making 127 single-seat fighters in India has been estimated to be around $30 billion.

    The final design contract, under which both sides were to contribute an initial $6 billion each for prototype development and production, has not been signed between India and Russia so far. Meanwhile, Russia has gone ahead with the development of PAK FA and claims that it will enter service with the Russian Air Force in 2016, and enter serial production in 2017.

    “Now that they already have the fighter, the Russians have made a revised offer to us. For $3.7 billion, they will give us all the technological know-how of making the fighter. We will also get three prototypes from them in that amount,” a senior defence ministry official said.
    But the Indian Air Force (IAF) remains opposed to the idea. A senior IAF official said, “We are not in favour of the FGFA. The PAK FA fighter is too expensive at even this rate, and we are not sure of its capabilities.”
    https://www.russiadefence.net/t4195p150-russia-india-strategic-relationship-news

    So apparently, India did not sign the agreement that would allow them to have some say on the PAK-FA project, nor did they contribute financially to it, but they did indeed sign the agreement for the FGFA which both will develop later.

    As for the PAK-FA export not being up to Indian specs, that has nothing to do with Russia, it has everything to do with India accepting that fact and inducting it anyway, not because of delays, but because there French romance ended badly.

    They couldn't develop the Tejas by their own, most of the technoligies were westerns copies. I can't see which 5 gen aircraft they will have with a lower cost than the Pak Fa. They choosed the Rafale because they thought they would get technology transfert but when Dassaut refused it, they reduced commandes. Now they doesn't have the choice. China and Pakistan will get their 5 gene really fast. Russia should ask for more money, develope it faster and sell them 250-300 of them. The more they produce, the less is the price. So they should ask 250-300 Pak Fa to produce locally (like the MKI) and stop spending money on new MKIs, Rafales and Tejas. It will replace all their aircrafts.

    Correct, there is no other 5gen aircraft out there that India can acquire for a lower price(and that's to say nothing of tech transfers).

    China sure, but i don't think Pakistan gonna get them anytime soon.

    From what i read, Russia didn't get any money from India for the PAK-FA, but they did (or will get) for the FGFA later.

    200-300 seems kinda high for a stopgap, nevertheless they're already moving with local assembly plan for PAK-FAs (or trying to anyway).

    I disagree, more MKIs wouldn't hurt, as for Tejas regardless of how it turns out India must continue development of it's own indigenous fighter aircrafts.

    Rafales were a waste, they only did it because then they could get the Mirage upgrades, which they originally wanted.
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    Post  Isos on Sat Dec 26, 2015 10:45 pm

    AlfaT8 wrote:
    Isos wrote:
    AlfaT8 wrote:Ok, i was holding back on entering this dicussion becuase i wasn't to firmiliar with the agreements that Russia and India had signed, luckily our friend MAX was, here's what he wrote:
    max steel wrote:Russia offers India new Pak-Fa deal

    Russia has made a new offer on the delivery of Sukhoi T-50 (PAK FA) fighter jets to India under the joint fifth-generation fighter aircraft (FGFA) initiative.
    Under the new offer, India will have to pay $3.7 billion, instead of $6 billion, for the technological know-how and three prototypes of PAK FA fighters. The proposal awaits a decision from Prime Minister Narendra Modi, when he meets Russian President Vladimir Putin for the annual India-Russia summit this week.

    India and Russia had signed an inter-governmental agreement to co-develop and co-produce the FGFA in 2007, which was followed by the $295 million preliminary design contract in December 2010. Modelled on the successful Brahmos missile project, the project involves Russia’s Sukhoi Design Bureau and the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL). The overall FGFA project cost for making 127 single-seat fighters in India has been estimated to be around $30 billion.

    The final design contract, under which both sides were to contribute an initial $6 billion each for prototype development and production, has not been signed between India and Russia so far. Meanwhile, Russia has gone ahead with the development of PAK FA and claims that it will enter service with the Russian Air Force in 2016, and enter serial production in 2017.

    “Now that they already have the fighter, the Russians have made a revised offer to us. For $3.7 billion, they will give us all the technological know-how of making the fighter. We will also get three prototypes from them in that amount,” a senior defence ministry official said.
    But the Indian Air Force (IAF) remains opposed to the idea. A senior IAF official said, “We are not in favour of the FGFA. The PAK FA fighter is too expensive at even this rate, and we are not sure of its capabilities.”
    https://www.russiadefence.net/t4195p150-russia-india-strategic-relationship-news

    So apparently, India did not sign the agreement that would allow them to have some say on the PAK-FA project, nor did they contribute financially to it, but they did indeed sign the agreement for the FGFA which both will develop later.

    As for the PAK-FA export not being up to Indian specs, that has nothing to do with Russia, it has everything to do with India accepting that fact and inducting it anyway, not because of delays, but because there French romance ended badly.

    They couldn't develop the Tejas by their own, most of the technoligies were westerns copies. I can't see which 5 gen aircraft they will have with a lower cost than the Pak Fa. They choosed the Rafale because they thought they would get technology transfert but when Dassaut refused it, they reduced commandes. Now they doesn't have the choice. China and Pakistan will get their 5 gene really fast. Russia should ask for more money, develope it faster and sell them 250-300 of them. The more they produce, the less is the price. So they should ask 250-300 Pak Fa to produce locally (like the MKI) and stop spending money on new MKIs, Rafales and Tejas. It will replace all their aircrafts.

    Correct, there is no other 5gen aircraft out there that India can acquire for a lower price(and that's to say nothing of tech transfers).

    China sure, but i don't think Pakistan gonna get them anytime soon.

    From what i read, Russia didn't get any money from India for the PAK-FA, but they did (or will get) for the FGFA later.

    200-300 seems kinda high for a stopgap, nevertheless they're already moving with local assembly plan for PAK-FAs (or trying to anyway).

    I disagree, more MKIs wouldn't hurt, as for Tejas regardless of how it turns out India must continue development of it's own indigenous fighter aircrafts.

    Rafales were a waste, they only did it because then they could get the Mirage upgrades, which they originally wanted.

    I have read they have invest 6 billions and they were unhappy because they couldn't have access to some technologies from russians.

    200 - 300 is not much than what they want: 50 Pak Fa +144 FGFA. They reduced orders for Rafale and have 200 of the 270 MKI they commanded. So 300 Pak Fa is not so high.
    If they take more MKI and less Pak Fa it would be good for Indians but not for Sukhoi. This is why I was saying Russians should insist on selling them Pak Fa.

    I disagree about Pakistan. First, they could become the new Irak for USA. Now that they don't need them anymore for Afghan war and with their bad relations, USA could start a limited war against them. Plus they are a major ally of china.
    Second, all technologies India buys, they buy too: missiles, navy, tanks, nuclear bombs ... So they will mostly buy J-31 (wich is the export 5 gen chinese fifhter AFAIK).
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    Post  Pinto on Sun Dec 27, 2015 11:30 am

    Isos wrote:
    AlfaT8 wrote:
    Isos wrote:
    AlfaT8 wrote:Ok, i was holding back on entering this dicussion becuase i wasn't to firmiliar with the agreements that Russia and India had signed, luckily our friend MAX was, here's what he wrote:
    max steel wrote:Russia offers India new Pak-Fa deal

    Russia has made a new offer on the delivery of Sukhoi T-50 (PAK FA) fighter jets to India under the joint fifth-generation fighter aircraft (FGFA) initiative.
    Under the new offer, India will have to pay $3.7 billion, instead of $6 billion, for the technological know-how and three prototypes of PAK FA fighters. The proposal awaits a decision from Prime Minister Narendra Modi, when he meets Russian President Vladimir Putin for the annual India-Russia summit this week.


    Well best choice for India seems to be to buy all the T50 from Russia directly with some IAF required specifications and give its own software etc, No other country will offer technology which Russia has always shared and India still not interested to be dependent on US for cutting edge critical weapons from US which are always prone to sanctions. But both countries should ink the this aircraft deal at the earliest as India is desperately short of required strength of fighter squadrons
    India and Russia had signed an inter-governmental agreement to co-develop and co-produce the FGFA in 2007, which was followed by the $295 million preliminary design contract in December 2010. Modelled on the successful Brahmos missile project, the project involves Russia’s Sukhoi Design Bureau and the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL). The overall FGFA project cost for making 127 single-seat fighters in India has been estimated to be around $30 billion.

    The final design contract, under which both sides were to contribute an initial $6 billion each for prototype development and production, has not been signed between India and Russia so far. Meanwhile, Russia has gone ahead with the development of PAK FA and claims that it will enter service with the Russian Air Force in 2016, and enter serial production in 2017.

    “Now that they already have the fighter, the Russians have made a revised offer to us. For $3.7 billion, they will give us all the technological know-how of making the fighter. We will also get three prototypes from them in that amount,” a senior defence ministry official said.
    But the Indian Air Force (IAF) remains opposed to the idea. A senior IAF official said, “We are not in favour of the FGFA. The PAK FA fighter is too expensive at even this rate, and we are not sure of its capabilities.”
    https://www.russiadefence.net/t4195p150-russia-india-strategic-relationship-news

    So apparently, India did not sign the agreement that would allow them to have some say on the PAK-FA project, nor did they contribute financially to it, but they did indeed sign the agreement for the FGFA which both will develop later.

    As for the PAK-FA export not being up to Indian specs, that has nothing to do with Russia, it has everything to do with India accepting that fact and inducting it anyway, not because of delays, but because there French romance ended badly.

    They couldn't develop the Tejas by their own, most of the technoligies were westerns copies. I can't see which 5 gen aircraft they will have with a lower cost than the Pak Fa. They choosed the Rafale because they thought they would get technology transfert but when Dassaut refused it, they reduced commandes. Now they doesn't have the choice. China and Pakistan will get their 5 gene really fast. Russia should ask for more money, develope it faster and sell them 250-300 of them. The more they produce, the less is the price. So they should ask 250-300 Pak Fa to produce locally (like the MKI) and stop spending money on new MKIs, Rafales and Tejas. It will replace all their aircrafts.

    Correct, there is no other 5gen aircraft out there that India can acquire for a lower price(and that's to say nothing of tech transfers).

    China sure, but i don't think Pakistan gonna get them anytime soon.

    From what i read, Russia didn't get any money from India for the PAK-FA, but they did (or will get) for the FGFA later.

    200-300 seems kinda high for a stopgap, nevertheless they're already moving with local assembly plan for PAK-FAs (or trying to anyway).

    I disagree, more MKIs wouldn't hurt, as for Tejas regardless of how it turns out India must continue development of it's own indigenous fighter aircrafts.

    Rafales were a waste, they only did it because then they could get the Mirage upgrades, which they originally wanted.

    I have read they have invest 6 billions and they were unhappy because they couldn't have access to some technologies from russians.

    200 - 300 is not much than what they want: 50 Pak Fa +144 FGFA. They reduced orders for Rafale and have 200 of the 270 MKI they commanded. So 300 Pak Fa is not so high.
    If they take more MKI and less Pak Fa it would be good for Indians but not for Sukhoi. This is why I was saying Russians should insist on selling them Pak Fa.

    I disagree about Pakistan. First, they could become the new Irak for USA. Now that they don't need them anymore for Afghan war and with their bad relations, USA could start a limited war against them. Plus they are a major ally of china.
    Second, all technologies India buys, they buy too: missiles, navy, tanks, nuclear bombs ... So they will mostly buy J-31 (wich is the export 5 gen chinese fifhter AFAIK).
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    Post  Guest on Sun Dec 27, 2015 1:28 pm

    Isos wrote:
    AlfaT8 wrote:
    Isos wrote:
    AlfaT8 wrote:Ok, i was holding back on entering this dicussion becuase i wasn't to firmiliar with the agreements that Russia and India had signed, luckily our friend MAX was, here's what he wrote:
    max steel wrote:Russia offers India new Pak-Fa deal

    Russia has made a new offer on the delivery of Sukhoi T-50 (PAK FA) fighter jets to India under the joint fifth-generation fighter aircraft (FGFA) initiative.
    Under the new offer, India will have to pay $3.7 billion, instead of $6 billion, for the technological know-how and three prototypes of PAK FA fighters. The proposal awaits a decision from Prime Minister Narendra Modi, when he meets Russian President Vladimir Putin for the annual India-Russia summit this week.

    India and Russia had signed an inter-governmental agreement to co-develop and co-produce the FGFA in 2007, which was followed by the $295 million preliminary design contract in December 2010. Modelled on the successful Brahmos missile project, the project involves Russia’s Sukhoi Design Bureau and the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL). The overall FGFA project cost for making 127 single-seat fighters in India has been estimated to be around $30 billion.

    The final design contract, under which both sides were to contribute an initial $6 billion each for prototype development and production, has not been signed between India and Russia so far. Meanwhile, Russia has gone ahead with the development of PAK FA and claims that it will enter service with the Russian Air Force in 2016, and enter serial production in 2017.

    “Now that they already have the fighter, the Russians have made a revised offer to us. For $3.7 billion, they will give us all the technological know-how of making the fighter. We will also get three prototypes from them in that amount,” a senior defence ministry official said.
    But the Indian Air Force (IAF) remains opposed to the idea. A senior IAF official said, “We are not in favour of the FGFA. The PAK FA fighter is too expensive at even this rate, and we are not sure of its capabilities.”
    https://www.russiadefence.net/t4195p150-russia-india-strategic-relationship-news

    So apparently, India did not sign the agreement that would allow them to have some say on the PAK-FA project, nor did they contribute financially to it, but they did indeed sign the agreement for the FGFA which both will develop later.

    As for the PAK-FA export not being up to Indian specs, that has nothing to do with Russia, it has everything to do with India accepting that fact and inducting it anyway, not because of delays, but because there French romance ended badly.

    They couldn't develop the Tejas by their own, most of the technoligies were westerns copies. I can't see which 5 gen aircraft they will have with a lower cost than the Pak Fa. They choosed the Rafale because they thought they would get technology transfert but when Dassaut refused it, they reduced commandes. Now they doesn't have the choice. China and Pakistan will get their 5 gene really fast. Russia should ask for more money, develope it faster and sell them 250-300 of them. The more they produce, the less is the price. So they should ask 250-300 Pak Fa to produce locally (like the MKI) and stop spending money on new MKIs, Rafales and Tejas. It will replace all their aircrafts.

    Correct, there is no other 5gen aircraft out there that India can acquire for a lower price(and that's to say nothing of tech transfers).

    China sure, but i don't think Pakistan gonna get them anytime soon.

    From what i read, Russia didn't get any money from India for the PAK-FA, but they did (or will get) for the FGFA later.

    200-300 seems kinda high for a stopgap, nevertheless they're already moving with local assembly plan for PAK-FAs (or trying to anyway).

    I disagree, more MKIs wouldn't hurt, as for Tejas regardless of how it turns out India must continue development of it's own indigenous fighter aircrafts.

    Rafales were a waste, they only did it because then they could get the Mirage upgrades, which they originally wanted.

    I have read they have invest 6 billions and they were unhappy because they couldn't have access to some technologies from russians.

    200 - 300 is not much than what they want: 50 Pak Fa +144 FGFA. They reduced orders for Rafale and have 200 of the 270 MKI they commanded. So 300 Pak Fa is not so high.
    If they take more MKI and less Pak Fa it would be good for Indians but not for Sukhoi. This is why I was saying Russians should insist on selling them Pak Fa.

    I disagree about Pakistan. First, they could become the new Irak for USA. Now that they don't need them anymore for Afghan war and with their bad relations, USA could start a limited war against them. Plus they are a major ally of china.
    Second, all technologies India buys, they buy too: missiles, navy, tanks, nuclear bombs ... So they will mostly buy J-31 (wich is the export 5 gen chinese fifhter AFAIK).

    They invested only 300million till this point directly into PAK FA project. They should try to invest 300 million into F35, they might get set of spare tires for that money.
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    Post  Pinto on Sun Dec 27, 2015 4:00 pm

    Militarov wrote:
    Isos wrote:
    AlfaT8 wrote:
    Isos wrote:
    AlfaT8 wrote:Ok, i was holding back on entering this dicussion becuase i wasn't to firmiliar with the agreements that Russia and India had signed, luckily our friend MAX was, here's what he wrote:
    max steel wrote:Russia offers India new Pak-Fa deal

    They invested only 300million till this point directly into PAK FA project. They should try to invest 300 million into F35, they might get set of spare tires for that money.

    well the way things stand for India in getting FGFA it looks like US will loose no chance in offering F35. if things did not work out by next year but president putin has said clearly in press conference during summit that FGFA partnership is on so i hope deal is signed next year and by 2019 India might have this aircraft but IAF wants 40 changes in T50 so it remains to be seen how things works out to be
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    Post  George1 on Sun Dec 27, 2015 6:10 pm

    Serial deliveries of T-50 PAK FA are expected to begin in 2017. The first flight of the T-50 with the engine of the second stage will take place in 2018. In total military have to receive 55 5th generation fighter aircrafts until 2020.

    Подробнее на ТАСС:
    https://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&hl=en&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/2559994&usg=ALkJrhhPm8_80RApCFfSxc2td65zV-hjOQ
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    Post  Kimppis on Sun Dec 27, 2015 8:07 pm

    George1 wrote:Serial deliveries of T-50 PAK FA are expected to begin in 2017. The first flight of the T-50 with the engine of the second stage will take place in 2018. In total military have to receive 55 5th generation fighter aircrafts until 2020.

    Подробнее на ТАСС:
    https://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&hl=en&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/2559994&usg=ALkJrhhPm8_80RApCFfSxc2td65zV-hjOQ

    So that 12 by 2020 was never officially confirmed? Which would makes sense if it's really going to enter service as early as 2017. That would be like 3-4 produced per year. Not to mention that 12 sounds like the worst case scenario anyway, not a certainty at this point, when the development isn't even finished.
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    Post  Berkut on Mon Dec 28, 2015 12:13 am

    The above is nonsense. Originally it was planned to buy and get in service 50-60 "stage 1" T-50's with the Izd.117 engines. Now it looks like the plan is to get 12 serial ones before 2020 and only then commit to larger contract after testing. They might be dropping getting serial ones with izd.117 post those 12 first ones altogether but that is just me speculating.

    This plan is much more realistic and better. I mean look at Su-35S. They literally finished building all the contracted 48 planes before it even started doing QRA and in general being actually qualified to do combat missions. Like half of them had to be sent back to factory to get thorough upgrade and their flight hours are still abysmal.
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    Post  AlfaT8 on Mon Dec 28, 2015 12:20 am

    Isos wrote:
    AlfaT8 wrote:
    Isos wrote:
    AlfaT8 wrote:Ok, i was holding back on entering this dicussion becuase i wasn't to firmiliar with the agreements that Russia and India had signed, luckily our friend MAX was, here's what he wrote:
    max steel wrote:Russia offers India new Pak-Fa deal

    Russia has made a new offer on the delivery of Sukhoi T-50 (PAK FA) fighter jets to India under the joint fifth-generation fighter aircraft (FGFA) initiative.
    Under the new offer, India will have to pay $3.7 billion, instead of $6 billion, for the technological know-how and three prototypes of PAK FA fighters. The proposal awaits a decision from Prime Minister Narendra Modi, when he meets Russian President Vladimir Putin for the annual India-Russia summit this week.

    India and Russia had signed an inter-governmental agreement to co-develop and co-produce the FGFA in 2007, which was followed by the $295 million preliminary design contract in December 2010. Modelled on the successful Brahmos missile project, the project involves Russia’s Sukhoi Design Bureau and the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL). The overall FGFA project cost for making 127 single-seat fighters in India has been estimated to be around $30 billion.

    The final design contract, under which both sides were to contribute an initial $6 billion each for prototype development and production, has not been signed between India and Russia so far. Meanwhile, Russia has gone ahead with the development of PAK FA and claims that it will enter service with the Russian Air Force in 2016, and enter serial production in 2017.

    “Now that they already have the fighter, the Russians have made a revised offer to us. For $3.7 billion, they will give us all the technological know-how of making the fighter. We will also get three prototypes from them in that amount,” a senior defence ministry official said.
    But the Indian Air Force (IAF) remains opposed to the idea. A senior IAF official said, “We are not in favour of the FGFA. The PAK FA fighter is too expensive at even this rate, and we are not sure of its capabilities.”
    https://www.russiadefence.net/t4195p150-russia-india-strategic-relationship-news

    So apparently, India did not sign the agreement that would allow them to have some say on the PAK-FA project, nor did they contribute financially to it, but they did indeed sign the agreement for the FGFA which both will develop later.

    As for the PAK-FA export not being up to Indian specs, that has nothing to do with Russia, it has everything to do with India accepting that fact and inducting it anyway, not because of delays, but because there French romance ended badly.

    They couldn't develop the Tejas by their own, most of the technoligies were westerns copies. I can't see which 5 gen aircraft they will have with a lower cost than the Pak Fa. They choosed the Rafale because they thought they would get technology transfert but when Dassaut refused it, they reduced commandes. Now they doesn't have the choice. China and Pakistan will get their 5 gene really fast. Russia should ask for more money, develope it faster and sell them 250-300 of them. The more they produce, the less is the price. So they should ask 250-300 Pak Fa to produce locally (like the MKI) and stop spending money on new MKIs, Rafales and Tejas. It will replace all their aircrafts.

    Correct, there is no other 5gen aircraft out there that India can acquire for a lower price(and that's to say nothing of tech transfers).

    China sure, but i don't think Pakistan gonna get them anytime soon.

    From what i read, Russia didn't get any money from India for the PAK-FA, but they did (or will get) for the FGFA later.

    200-300 seems kinda high for a stopgap, nevertheless they're already moving with local assembly plan for PAK-FAs (or trying to anyway).

    I disagree, more MKIs wouldn't hurt, as for Tejas regardless of how it turns out India must continue development of it's own indigenous fighter aircrafts.

    Rafales were a waste, they only did it because then they could get the Mirage upgrades, which they originally wanted.

    I have read they have invest 6 billions and they were unhappy because they couldn't have access to some technologies from russians.

    200 - 300 is not much than what they want: 50 Pak Fa +144 FGFA. They reduced orders for Rafale and have 200 of the 270 MKI they commanded. So 300 Pak Fa is not so high.
    If they take more MKI and less Pak Fa it would be good for Indians but not for Sukhoi. This is why I was saying Russians should insist on selling them Pak Fa.

    I disagree about Pakistan. First, they could become the new Irak for USA. Now that they don't need them anymore for Afghan war and with their bad relations, USA could start a limited war against them. Plus they are a major ally of china.
    Second, all technologies India buys, they buy too: missiles, navy, tanks, nuclear bombs ... So they will mostly buy J-31 (wich is the export 5 gen chinese fifhter AFAIK).

    Yea, the thing is they didn't, apparently they never signed the final design contract, under which both sides were to contribute an initial $6 billion each.

    That's the thing, they want the FGFA not so much the FA, but there in a rush so 50 is a good stopgap, until the FGFA is ready for production in 2020/21, and even Russia is predicting they'll have 55 FAs by 2020, so production wise there's no way that over a 100 aircrafts are gonna be produced before the FGFA is ready.
    And how is more MKI's not good for Sukhoi??

    Trust me Isos, there is no chance in Hell the U.S would go with the military option on Pakistan, Nukes do a good job at preventing that.

    Introduction of the J-31 and also J-20 will happen around 2019/20, and that's for China, export of these aircrafts will come later, so overall India will be the First to receive 5th gen fighters.
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    Post  mack8 on Mon Dec 28, 2015 10:51 pm

    053 with new calibration markings on nose, and 6 pylons.
    PAK-FA, T-50: News #3 - Page 23 180772
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    Post  Isos on Tue Dec 29, 2015 12:53 am

    AlfaT8 wrote:Ok, i was holding back on entering this dicussion becuase i wasn't to firmiliar with the agreements that Russia and India had signed, luckily our friend MAX was, here's what he wrote:
    max steel wrote:Russia offers India new Pak-Fa deal


    Yea, the thing is they didn't, apparently they never signed the final design contract, under which both sides were to contribute an initial $6 billion each.

    That's the thing, they want the FGFA not so much the FA, but there in a rush so 50 is a good stopgap, until the FGFA is ready for production in 2020/21, and even Russia is predicting they'll have 55 FAs by 2020, so production wise there's no way that over a 100 aircrafts are gonna be produced before the FGFA is ready.
    And how is more MKI's not good for Sukhoi??

    Trust me Isos, there is no chance in Hell the U.S would go with the military option on Pakistan, Nukes do a good job at preventing that.

    Introduction of the J-31 and also J-20 will happen around 2019/20, and that's for China, export of these aircrafts will come later, so overall India will be the First to receive 5th gen fighters.

    I didn't know about the contract. I tought it was signed. Knowing that, it's even more curious to see Indian asking for something they didn"t pay dunno

    I was meaning selling Pak Fa is better than selling MKI. If they ask for more MKIs they will reduce orders for Pak Fa.

    Well, that's not the subject but for Pakistan I wouldn't be sure like you are. Their nuclear potential isn't so powerful and can be counter. Their planes are not the best you can found and their navy is really nothing. At least they have BM and CM but not sure they could be a threat to AEGIS. But if USA stop helping them against talibans and others groupe they could really BECOME the new Afghanistan. And their relations with China and USA complicate the situation.

    About the j-31/20, you are right but FGFA will come later because they have to start its conception and production and Russia will produce Pak Fa for RuAF first.

    BTW, mack8 very nice image Very Happy   Is it because of the angle of the picture why engines look a little too big for the plane or is it the case. Will the new ones have smaller size ? However I like their length, it more safety against Manpads
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    PAK-FA, T-50: News #3 - Page 23 Empty Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #3

    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt on Tue Dec 29, 2015 1:06 am

    mack8 wrote:053 with new calibration markings on nose, and 6 pylons.
    PAK-FA, T-50: News #3 - Page 23 180772

    As an extra bonus there is an Il-76LL behind the T-50.
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    Post  Akula971 on Tue Dec 29, 2015 6:18 pm

    Really who the fuck is this 'Senior IAF official' ??? I want to go beat his ass to a pulp.

    The truth is - there is no one like this. This is an elaborate RUSE. Dont fall for it.

    Western sponsored Indian print and internet media know no limits.

    The deal will go through as they want.

    And if such an official exists, the MoD has power OVER him, they finalize the deals, not the IAF.
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    PAK-FA, T-50: News #3 - Page 23 Empty Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #3

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Tue Dec 29, 2015 6:43 pm

    Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:
    mack8 wrote:053 with new calibration markings on nose, and 6 pylons.
    PAK-FA, T-50: News #3 - Page 23 180772

    As an extra bonus there is an Il-76LL behind the T-50.

    The plane in the back, is it the testbed for the PD-14 engine, the bigger engine that's view is obscured by the T-50 prototype?
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    Post  Pinto on Tue Dec 29, 2015 6:54 pm

    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:
    mack8 wrote:053 with new calibration markings on nose, and 6 pylons.
    PAK-FA, T-50: News #3 - Page 23 180772

    As an extra bonus there is an Il-76LL behind the T-50.

    The plane in the back, is it the testbed for the PD-14 engine, the bigger engine that's view is obscured by the T-50 prototype?

    lol well said bro lol! bounce , IAF liking n dreams for western fighters has made Tejas redundant as they keep changing specifications and they are also responsible for delay in FGFA deal to be signed, they have not yet test flight T50 and are ready with 40 specifications
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    Post  PapaDragon on Tue Dec 29, 2015 7:17 pm


    Four engines on that thing and of course it is most interesting one that gets blocked from view..... angry lol1
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    Post  Guest on Tue Dec 29, 2015 8:57 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Four engines on that thing and of course it is most interesting one that gets blocked from view..... angry lol1

    PAK-FA, T-50: News #3 - Page 23 800px-Gromov_Flight_Test_Institute_Ilyushin_Il-76LL_with_one_Aviadvigatel_PD-14_engine

    There you will feel better xD
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    Post  Austin on Wed Dec 30, 2015 8:44 am

    Russian fighter 5 th generation can get "future radar"
    http://ria.ru/defense_safety/20151230/1351536621.html

    The new radar is based on the use of radio-optical phased arrays, thereby reducing the weight of the radar twice, and the resolution of the increase tenfold.

    MOSCOW, December 30 - RIA Novosti. The Russian fifth-generation fighter PAK FA (T-50) can be equipped with is developing in the Russian radar, based on the use of radio-optical phased arrays (ROFAR), adviser of the first deputy general director of Concern "Radio-electronic technology '( KRET, ROFAR software company, is a "Rostec") Vladimir Mikheev.

    Photonic technology greatly expand the possibilities of communication and radar ─ their weight decreased by more than half, and the resolution will increase tenfold. Ultra-wideband signal ROFAR allows you to get virtually the TV picture in the radar range. Radiofotoniki technology, in particular, should open up new opportunities for improvement "smart skin" on Russian airplanes and helicopters of the latest generation.


    "The output of our work on ROFAR will get a full list of aircraft - manned and unmanned - which we plan to offer equipped with radar-based radio-optical phased arrays. I think that the PAK FA will also be on this list and it will be given to specific proposals "- said Mikheyev reporters, adding that the final decision will take the Department of Defense.

    The project ROFAR based KRET laboratory was established radiofotoniki. Concern has already begun to laboratory tests to create ROFAR. Designed for 4.5 years the work is on schedule, which was agreed with the Foundation for Advanced Studies. As reported in November, RIA Novosti deputy general director Igor KRET Nasenkov, the company intends to establish a full-scale sample of the future radar until 2018.

    T-50 (PAK FA project) - Russia's fifth-generation aircraft equipped with a fundamentally new avionics, and promising radar with a phased antenna array. The first flight took place in 2010 in Komsomolsk-on-Amur, the first public demonstration of a fighter - in 2011 at the Aviation and Space Salon MAKS in Zhukovsky near Moscow.

    KRET was established in 2009. The main directions of its activity - development and production of complex systems and avionics for civil and military aircraft, radar airborne, the state identification, electronic warfare systems, instrumentation for various applications, electrical connectors, connectors and cable assemblies. Among the developments KRET - a family of ground-based electronic warfare "Krasuha" aircraft systems group and individual protection "Khibiny", "Vitebsk" and "Arm-AB" mobile small-sized radar "harmony."


    KRET new radar will be able to look into the aircraft at a distance of 500 km


    http://ria.ru/defense_safety/20151230/1351540463.html

    Radio optical phased arrays significantly extend the capabilities of modern communication and radar - their weight decreased by more than half, and the resolution will increase tenfold.

    "ROFAR allow us to see the plane, located 500 kilometers away, as if we are standing 50 meters away from him at the airport, his portrait in the baseband. Moreover, if needed, this technology will look in the aircraft itself, to know what kind of people and Appliances are there, because the signal can pass any obstacles, even lead-meter wall, "- he said Mikheyev told reporters.
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    Post  AlfaT8 on Wed Dec 30, 2015 4:51 pm

    Isos wrote:
    AlfaT8 wrote:Ok, i was holding back on entering this dicussion becuase i wasn't to firmiliar with the agreements that Russia and India had signed, luckily our friend MAX was, here's what he wrote:
    max steel wrote:Russia offers India new Pak-Fa deal


    Yea, the thing is they didn't, apparently they never signed the final design contract, under which both sides were to contribute an initial $6 billion each.

    That's the thing, they want the FGFA not so much the FA, but there in a rush so 50 is a good stopgap, until the FGFA is ready for production in 2020/21, and even Russia is predicting they'll have 55 FAs by 2020, so production wise there's no way that over a 100 aircrafts are gonna be produced before the FGFA is ready.
    And how is more MKI's not good for Sukhoi??

    Trust me Isos, there is no chance in Hell the U.S would go with the military option on Pakistan, Nukes do a good job at preventing that.

    Introduction of the J-31 and also J-20 will happen around 2019/20, and that's for China, export of these aircrafts will come later, so overall India will be the First to receive 5th gen fighters.

    I didn't know about the contract. I tought it was signed. Knowing that, it's even more curious to see Indian asking for something they didn"t pay dunno

    I was meaning selling Pak Fa is better than selling MKI. If they ask for more MKIs they will reduce orders for Pak Fa.

    Well, that's not the subject but for Pakistan I wouldn't be sure like you are. Their nuclear potential isn't so powerful and can be counter. Their planes are not the best you can found and their navy is really nothing. At least they have BM and CM but not sure they could be a threat to AEGIS. But if USA stop helping them against talibans and others groupe they could really BECOME the new Afghanistan. And their relations with China and USA complicate the situation.

    About the j-31/20, you are right but FGFA will come later because they have to start its conception and production and Russia will produce Pak Fa for RuAF first.

    BTW, mack8 very nice image Very Happy   Is it because of the angle of the picture why engines look a little too big for the plane or is it the case. Will the new ones have smaller size ? However I like their length, it more safety against Manpads

    I only found out recently too.

    The MKI is a good aircraft, but it can't replace a new 5th gen fighter.

    The thing about Nukes is (regardless of Pakistan's conventional strength) that if one starts using them the others will also get trigger happy, and that is one of the things the U.S fears most.

    Correct the Russian air-force get's first dibs, but even then the PAK-FA export will still go to India earlier.
    So, the Nuclear deterrent
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    PAK-FA, T-50: News #3 - Page 23 Empty Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #3

    Post  Pinto on Wed Dec 30, 2015 7:02 pm

    [quote="AlfaT8"]
    Isos wrote:
    AlfaT8 wrote:

    I only found out recently too.

    The MKI is a good aircraft, but it can't replace a new 5th gen fighter.

    The thing about Nukes is (regardless of Pakistan's conventional strength) that if one starts using them the others will also get trigger happy, and that is one of the things the U.S fears most.

    Correct the Russian air-force get's first dibs, but even then the PAK-FA export will still go to India earlier.
    So, the Nuclear deterrent

    well it would be pleasurable and proud moment to see PAK-FA flying in indian colors
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    PAK-FA, T-50: News #3 - Page 23 Empty Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #3

    Post  Berkut on Sat Jan 02, 2016 4:07 pm

    T-50's have been very active in December. T-50-1,-2,-3 and 5R are all in Zhuk, -4 is in Akhtubinsk. Between the Zhuk frames they did roughly 20 flights in December (including days where several frames were active on same day), we should finally hit 1000 flights hopefully early this year. Few pics throughout the December, latest pics first then moving towards beginning of December. Note some are very high res, open them in new tab. Also more modification too rear canopy, see T-50-2.

    PAK-FA, T-50: News #3 - Page 23 0_b4382_dd8b044_orig
    PAK-FA, T-50: News #3 - Page 23 0_b4381_634519e8_orig
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    Late november but nice angle;
    PAK-FA, T-50: News #3 - Page 23 0_b4256_235ec660_orig

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