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    2015 Moscow Victory Day Parade:

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    Post  Regular Wed Apr 29, 2015 3:37 am

    calripson wrote:Looks like China brought their basketball team.
    Platforms. pirat
    Cyberspec
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    Post  Cyberspec Wed Apr 29, 2015 4:01 am

    Must be their presidential honour guard, which I assume has a height requirement for it's members
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    Post  magnumcromagnon Wed Apr 29, 2015 4:04 am

    flamming_python wrote:Middle is the Mongolian army?

    From the look of their names on their uniforms, I seems most likely that they're Mongolian.
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    Post  GarryB Wed Apr 29, 2015 9:58 am

    You misunderstood me? I'm talking about single shots sent downrange onto the target. There is a very good reason why the US military first thought of the three round burst and then simply got rid of it because it offered nothing over the Semi/Auto selector and good awareness of the man at arms.

    In a conventional rifle with a standard 600 odd RPM rate of fire the first shot of a three round burst hits the target and the other two go over their head...

    The purpose of the two round burst on the AN-94 is to fire the second shot before the recoil of the first shot has upset the aim too much.

    Results I have seen seem to suggest both rounds are close enough to be worth the extra shot.

    The rifle did beat the AK-74M because of this despite being rather more expensive and more difficult to make and maintain.

    That is more than most of the super weapons the US tested to replace the M16 managed...

    Similarly the A-545 is the better rifle vs the upcoming AK-12 simply not worth the retooling for the benefit (and lobying) of that small difference.

    Official statements regarding the most recent tests suggests the AK12 is better as well as cheaper and easier to make.

    KISS was gone and that for the benefit of laser like accuracy and tandem lead poisoning on random durka-durka idiot somewhere in Ingush rear country.

    The best weapon is not always the most accurate....

    And the AN does provide the closest thing to the two girls one cup, brain mush edition on its current form. The rifle is a very good idea and I would like it to be refined and fielded. Because the recoil is out of this world. And the looks are wicked.

    I must say when I first saw that the whole barrel slides back on a rail I did cringe and wonder what effect on rate of fire and shooting performance having the bayonet fixed would have.

    I did like the fact that the bayonet was angled at 90 degrees to the side so the under barrel grenade launcher can be fitted and used with a fixed bayonet.

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    Post  KoTeMoRe Wed Apr 29, 2015 10:13 am

    GarryB wrote:
    You misunderstood me? I'm talking about single shots sent downrange onto the target. There is a very good reason why the US military first thought of the three round burst and then simply got rid of it because it offered nothing over the Semi/Auto selector and good awareness of the man at arms.

    In a conventional rifle with a standard 600 odd RPM rate of fire the first shot of a three round burst hits the target and the other two go over their head...

    The purpose of the two round burst on the AN-94 is to fire the second shot before the recoil of the first shot has upset the aim too much.

    Results I have seen seem to suggest both rounds are close enough to be worth the extra shot.

    The rifle did beat the AK-74M because of this despite being rather more expensive and more difficult to make and maintain.

    That is more than most of the super weapons the US tested to replace the M16 managed...

    Similarly the A-545 is the better rifle vs the upcoming AK-12 simply not worth the retooling for the benefit (and lobying) of that small difference.

    Official statements regarding the most recent tests suggests the AK12 is better as well as cheaper and easier to make.

    KISS was gone and that for the benefit of laser like accuracy and tandem lead poisoning on random durka-durka idiot somewhere in Ingush rear country.

    The best weapon is not always the most accurate....

    And the AN does provide the closest thing to the two girls one cup, brain mush edition on its current form. The rifle is a very good idea and I would like it to be refined and fielded. Because the recoil is out of this world. And the looks are wicked.

    I must say when I first saw that the whole barrel slides back on a rail I did cringe and wonder what effect on rate of fire and shooting performance having the bayonet fixed would have.

    I did like the fact that the bayonet was angled at 90 degrees to the side so the under barrel grenade launcher can be fitted and used with a fixed bayonet.


    We have a problem in translation here.

    1. I was addressing the perceived sentiment that I was talking about burst of full auto fire. Nope I was addressing the fact that the "doublet" is something practical on relatively close range, because of the recoil and shifting. The US demonstrates pew pew all the time...in training, in the real universe, the bullets fly and economy is low. That was my point.
    2. I am saying that indeed the minimal shift of impact point is the good part of this rifle, one that got it selected, and one that allows it to drop MORE lead on target while aiming. However it isn't that critical once on the battlefield, after the REST of the issues with it were "identified" once the rifle was trialled.
    3. I have it by people in the know that the AK-12 isn't AT ALL better than the A-545. It is marginally inferior and the trials got Rumsfelded with IZhmash being allowed to "redesign" the fielded model. Some say they were allowed to substitute the initial product, with a better tuned rifle. Which means that out of the box the AK-12 is likely to be INFERIOR to the A-545. Both rifles costs boil down to ZID being smaller as plant.
    4. The best weapon in this case is also the most accurate, only it is going to lose on mass fielding. This while the few units that have used the AEK in Chechen Paradise through the 90's and 2000's have praised the rifle.
    5. All in all the current AK-12 isn't anything drastically superior over a Zenit C° pimped out basic AK-74M/103. So going there, while doesn't the MOD save some money and make a great Russian company even more competitive by picking up something that works...
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    Post  Regular Wed Apr 29, 2015 3:13 pm

    I still don't know why AK-12 wasn't based on AK-107. Looks no brainer to me.
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    Post  KoTeMoRe Wed Apr 29, 2015 3:26 pm

    Regular wrote:I still don't know why AK-12 wasn't based on AK-107. Looks no brainer to me.

    Because there was a AK-107 sourced rifle during the trials for Ratnik...and it was deemed unsatisfactory...while the AK-103-4 was retained as a M43 round rifle...
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    Post  PapaDragon Wed Apr 29, 2015 3:48 pm

    I'll just leave this here thumbsup

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    macedonian
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    Post  macedonian Wed Apr 29, 2015 3:56 pm

    Impressive that Serbia chose to send those people to the parade even after all the pressure from Brussels and Washington.
    The Serbian Government showed some serious cojones! I'm jealous.
    Congrats Serbia!

    russia
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    Post  KoTeMoRe Wed Apr 29, 2015 4:11 pm

    macedonian wrote:Impressive that Serbia chose to send those people to the parade even after all the pressure from Brussels and Washington.
    The Serbian Government showed some serious cojones! I'm jealous.
    Congrats Serbia!

    russia

    Balkan insanity at work. respekt
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    Post  alexZam Wed Apr 29, 2015 7:54 pm

    Serbia - respekt
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    Post  ult Wed Apr 29, 2015 8:43 pm

    Right now in Moscow.

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    Post  VladimirSahin Wed Apr 29, 2015 11:29 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:I'll just leave this here thumbsup

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    Love my Serbian bros respekt Very Happy
    TheArmenian
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    Post  TheArmenian Thu Apr 30, 2015 1:17 am

    Thank you ult.
    Here is another one from a better point of view.

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    Post  Big_Gazza Thu Apr 30, 2015 2:08 am

    TheArmenian wrote:Thank you ult.
    Here is another one from a better point of view.


    Many of these images and vids of the T-14 show clearly that the turret shape is concealed by some sort of framework hidden behind the tarpaulin.  The "edges" of the turret are clearly not real as the tarp sags and is concave where it would be expected to lie flat.  I interpret this as a dis-info ploy and expect that when the actual vehicle is revealed, it will feature a low aspect turret with side mounted and heavily sloped applique armour with an large bustle at rear, ie in similar fashion to the plastic model and fansite CGI.  I also wouldn't be surprised if a rigid thermal shroud is fitted around the gun barrel, as well as pronounced 30mm (?) cannon and HMG side-mounted sponsons.  I expect that shroud and turret applique ERA/NERA could easily be fitted in the final 24 hrs prior to the parade, while the cannon could be a realistic mock-up for display purposes rather than an actual pre-production unit, so can be also fitted at last minute.

    Its interesting that the overall outline of the Kurganets APC/IFV and Boomerang APC seem to be a good match for the displayed plastic models, so I expect that the final publically-revealed form of T-14 will be more like the MBT model than people might otherwise expect.
    Werewolf
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    Post  Werewolf Thu Apr 30, 2015 2:12 am

    I do think aswell, that the turret is surrounded with a wooden frame to conceal the turret shape lot of things indicate that and this footage with the tarp obviously pushing through the frame just more than evident.
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    Post  cracker Thu Apr 30, 2015 6:00 am

    the "frame" is probably just the APS tubes..... don't create theories, they have 0 reason to bother doing that, certainly not to see what debate it could create among fanboys or haters on random forums...
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    Post  Dima Thu Apr 30, 2015 9:23 am

    alexZam wrote:Famous Alabino base. International "guests" slowly, but surely flooding in.

    2015 Moscow Victory Day Parade: - Page 8 XGXXOh3SmV8
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    Very Happy thumbsup
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    Post  Dima Thu Apr 30, 2015 9:26 am

    PapaDragon wrote:I'll just leave this here thumbsup

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    Hatz off Serbia. thumbsup respekt
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    Post  Werewolf Thu Apr 30, 2015 11:44 am

    cracker wrote:the "frame" is probably just the APS tubes..... don't create theories, they have 0 reason to bother doing that, certainly not to see what debate it could create among fanboys or haters on random forums...

    I do not think that this is just "baseless" theory, there are indications for that and your theory that those are probably APS tubes, it does not look like any tubes nor any other APS related system.

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    If you look closely you can see that this is an airframe and sloping armor with triangles does not make much sense to me.

    The picture of the transported Armata at bottom right, you can see how the wind presses the tarp throgh this wooden frame that it even casts a shadow showing that the tarp is inside the frame and not flat, like we are believed to think this is the armor shape itself.

    More i see, more i believe that the small scale model turrets are the actual case and not this flat bulky front frame armor.
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    Post  George1 Thu Apr 30, 2015 12:23 pm

    Around 30 world leaders to attend Victory Day celebrations in Moscow — Kremlin

    MOSCOW, April 30. /TASS/. The leaders of around 30 countries have confirmed their participation in the Victory Day Parade in Moscow, Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov told journalists on Thursday.

    "Around 30 heads of state and government, along with heads of international organizations, plan to take part in celebrations dedicated to the 70th anniversary of Victory in Moscow on May 8-10," Peskov said.

    According to the Kremlin spokesman, among those who confirmed their participation in the celebrations are presidents of Azerbaijan, Armenia, Belarus, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan, Abkhazia, South Ossetia; presidents of China, Cuba, India, South Africa, Bosnia and Herzegovina, the Republika Srpska, Venezuela, Vietnam, Zimbabwe, Macedonia, Mongolia; leaders of Cyprus, Palestine, Serbia, Slovakia and Czech Republic; the German Chancellor and heads of UN and UNESCO.

    Not all guests will be able to attend the Victory Day Parade on May 9 because of busy schedules, Peskov noted. In particular, Slovakian Prime Minister Robert Fico, German Chancellor Angela Merkel, Belarusian President Alexander Lukashenko and Czech President Milos Zeman will not be able to attend the main celebrations on May 9, the spokesman added.
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Thu Apr 30, 2015 1:32 pm

    We have a problem in translation here.

    !... OK.
    2... so reliability and ease of use are more important than accuracy and lethality?

    3... so not much difference should mean stick with what works...

    4... contradicts point 2 doesn't it?

    The AEK is definitely not user friendly... I have spoken to people who have used both weapons and they state the AEK keeps rounds on target in controlled full auto bursts better, but the recoil balancing mechanism is not simple and soldier proof and needs to be removed and reinstalled correctly or there will be problems...

    I don't think extra effort to get better accuracy in full auto warrants the extra complication.

    I still don't know why AK-12 wasn't based on AK-107. Looks no brainer to me.

    the main advantage of balanced recoil mechanisms is to improve accuracy in full auto and bursts... which is good, but improving accuracy in single shot mode is more useful because that should be when point targets are engaged.

    Many of these images and vids of the T-14 show clearly that the turret shape is concealed by some sort of framework hidden behind the tarpaulin.

    I agree, but kinda think it is rather logical... the purpose of having a canvas cover is concealment... without a frame structure the canvas would not conceal shape much.

    Big_Gazza
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    Post  Big_Gazza Thu Apr 30, 2015 3:01 pm

    cracker wrote:the "frame" is probably just the APS tubes..... don't create theories, they have 0 reason to bother doing that, certainly not to see what debate it could create among fanboys or haters on random forums...

    Actually, they have every reason to do exactly that. It creates acute public interest and draws the general population in (eg consider the widespread public interest in the unveiling of the B-2 Spirit stealth bomber in the USA). Public unveiling of secret high-tech military gear generates a certain of excitement and gets the public patriotic juices flowing. The Russian MoD is playing the public interest card and are doing it well as far as I can see.

    Finally, I think Werewolves pics are very convincing. There is zero chance in my mind that the angular faces visible under the canvass reflect the actual turret design. In any case, we do not have long to wait... Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy
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    Post  KoTeMoRe Thu Apr 30, 2015 3:28 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    We have a problem in translation here.

    !... OK.
    2...  so reliability and ease of use are more important than accuracy and lethality?

    3... so not much difference should mean stick with what works...

    4... contradicts point 2 doesn't it?

    The AEK is definitely not user friendly... I have spoken to people who have used both weapons and they state the AEK keeps rounds on target in controlled full auto bursts better, but the recoil balancing mechanism is not simple and soldier proof and needs to be removed and reinstalled correctly or there will be problems...

    I don't think extra effort to get better accuracy in full auto warrants the extra complication.

    I still don't know why AK-12 wasn't based on AK-107. Looks no brainer to me.

    the main advantage of balanced recoil mechanisms is to improve accuracy in full auto and bursts... which is good, but improving accuracy in single shot mode is more useful because that should be when point targets are engaged.

    Many of these images and vids of the T-14 show clearly that the turret shape is concealed by some sort of framework hidden behind the tarpaulin.

    I agree, but kinda think it is rather logical... the purpose of having a canvas cover is concealment... without a frame structure the canvas would not conceal shape much.


    2. They are if to clear a malfunction you need to completely take the rifle down and stop being and asset on the battlefield.
    3. No this means that the A-545 was redesigned (the recoil balancing mechanism is now a one block three parts system wich is currently better than the AK-12) prior to the trials. Not during, after the first iteration was a failure. That's not fair nor ideal. Trying a fine tuned weapon isn't having such out of the box.
    4. It realy doesn't, this is a matter of economy but not alone. Izhmash lobbying is obvious. However according to Bochkarev, both rifles will be accepted.

    Once again the Aek is the more accurate of the two (AK-12). On single and full auto. The A-545 is inferior in pure value to the two shot feature of the AN.

    The A-545 adresses alot more than that, it was a finished product. From the magwell, to an improved ergonomical model, to better conception of the frame and disticnt departure from the old mid rifle sight, witha diopter not unlike the AN.


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