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    Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors

    flamming_python
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    Post  flamming_python Wed Aug 24, 2022 8:10 am

    All these Elbrus chips have been produced in Taiwan for years

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    Post  limb Wed Aug 24, 2022 11:01 am

    So can Russia produce enough 65nm transistors to satisfy military and spacecraft demand?

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    Post  caveat emptor Wed Aug 24, 2022 4:56 pm

    limb wrote:So can Russia produce enough 65nm transistors to satisfy military and spacecraft demand?

    How did you come up with 65nm? Why not 45nm or 90nm?
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    Post  kvs Wed Aug 24, 2022 11:46 pm

    Mikron has 65 nm production capacity. Russia does not have 45 nm fabs.

    People should stop treating military ICs like consumer products. A 90 nm IC is not some refrigerator CPU joke. Refrigerators
    and washing machines have 6502 level ICs. OK, maybe the ultra fancy ones have more advanced parts. But 90 nm takes us
    back to the early 2000s for Intel CPUs. Do you think that the early 2000s CPUs were total crap? The military does not need
    a generic CPU using generic RAM. It needs ASICs and custom layouts of those ASICs.

    A tank or jet aircraft does not need "7 nm" parts in tiny form factors. It also does not need 80 core CPUs for some sort of
    neural network learning activity. Nobody, including the precious west, is going to deploy supercomputers in military equipment
    to run AI systems. That is strictly offline activity. What is deployed on field equipment is a "hard wired" implementation of
    the AI model. This does not require HPC hardware.

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    Post  caveat emptor Thu Aug 25, 2022 12:22 am

    limb wrote:So can Russia produce enough 65nm transistors to satisfy military and spacecraft demand?

    I doubt that military uses anything in 65nm. Maybe DSP, buy I'm very doubtful. As far as i know, space electronics is mostly made in 130nm tech. Space electronics needs to be rugged. Similar goes for military. What exactly they would need so much processing power for?

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    sepheronx
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    Post  sepheronx Thu Aug 25, 2022 12:27 am

    Most DSP cores are built on older nodes as due to their specialized design and rather linear function, they don't need high frequencies in order to outdo a typical chip can do in real time data processing.

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    Post  kvs Fri Aug 26, 2022 3:15 am

    This is still not common knowledge and I see people talking about 5 nm process resolution with 2 nm in the near term as if it has any relation
    to the resolution of 90 nm and coarser chips.   So called 5 nm FinFet is not 18 times smaller than 90 nm.   The channel "fin" was 5 nm before
    but was not oriented at 90 degrees to the surface of the chip.   So the 5 nm tag is a total marketing lie.   I posted in the general thread
    a video where a "7 nm" FinFet chip produced for AMD by TSMC is dissected with highly specialized equipment and viewed with an electron
    microscope.   It is clearly not smaller than the 14 nm chips produced by Intel.  

    So-called 28 nm is really more like 56 nm with assorted tech solutions to physics problems that appear below 90 nm.  For example strained
    silicon in order to increase the electron speed in the channel.   So the electron travels 56 nm but twice as fast and this is called 28 nm.  
    At 90 nm SiO2 was perfect for the oxide in CMOS.   For smaller channel "length" (the convention is opposite to the language used for channels
    such as rivers and canals is the "width") between the positive and negative ends of a transistor the quantum tunneling increases rapidly with
    decreasing "length".   To suppress this we have the transition to exotic oxides such as those based on Hafnium.  The idea is that the leakage
    current can be suppressed by increasing the dielectric constant of the material.  HfO2 has a constant about 20 times larger than the vacuum compared
    to SiO2 which has one 4 times larger.  But Hafnium introduces lattice defects which totally f*ck up the CMOS functionality so there are layered
    applications of it, etc.

    All modern high resolution IC tech is proprietary with different companies having their own secret solutions.   Back in the days of 90 nm moving
    from company to company did not result in dealing with totally different technology.   People who think Russia lacks the ability to handle such
    technology don't have a clue what they are talking about.   The understanding of the physics problems and how to solve them is clearly there
    and Russian researchers are coming up with their own solutions.    Commercialization of these solutions is fully practical.   People keep on using
    the USSR as some sort of absolute reference point.   The days of incompetent micromanagement are long over.   The issue is financial incentive
    and that is now also not a problem thanks to the stellar intellects in NATzO.

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    Rodion_Romanovic
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Wed Aug 31, 2022 4:50 pm

    https://iz.ru/1387915/2022-08-31/mishustin-poobeshchal-bespretcedentnoe-finansirovanie-elektroniki-v-rf


    Mishustin promised unprecedented funding for electronics in Russia

    Mishustin: Russia's electronics industry will receive unprecedented funding

    August 31, 2022, 06:37

    Funding for the development of the domestic electronics industry will be carried out in unprecedented volumes. This was announced on August 30 by Russian Prime Minister Mikhail Mishustin at a technological session on electronics.

    “In the first half of the year, we held a strategic session, determined the prospective image of the electronics industry, outlined very specific goals and objectives for achieving them. The industry will receive unprecedented funding, and it is long - we have made plans for eight years, ”he said.

    According to the prime minister, now we need to pay special attention to the development of our own specialized electronic engineering, the production of technological, auxiliary equipment, components, including through stimulating demand for microelectronic products.

    The work should be carried out by the state together with the scientific community and represent the creation of knowledge-intensive products, services and ensuring the competitiveness of Russia in the field of high technologies.

    In addition, Mishustin noted the need to fine-tune the financial system in the face of sanctions and restrictions. He emphasized the need to strengthen the financial self-sufficiency and independence of the Russian Federation, and also noted that now it is important to take medium-term measures aimed at restoring growth rates.

    On August 19, the Ministry of Industry and Trade of the Russian Federation announced that domestic manufacturers are ready to offer their products to the Ministry of Emergency Situations . It was noted that the state supports production, in particular, benefits have been introduced for the radio-electronic industry in the form of reduced corporate income tax rates and insurance premium rates, which apply not only to developers, but also manufacturers of electronic components and electronic products.

    Earlier, on August 15, Deputy Head of the Ministry of Industry and Trade of the Russian Federation Vasily Shpak, as part of the Army-2022 forum, said that some Russian state-owned companies and departments had already switched to domestic software at critical information infrastructure (CII) facilities. Russian experts have created a "security platform" that provides trusted platform security solutions for critical information infrastructure, he said.

    Prior to this, on July 20, the Prime Minister of the Russian Federation announced that the government would speed up work on bringing Russian developments in the field of software to the Russian market.

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    lancelot
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    Post  lancelot Sat Sep 03, 2022 7:53 am

    Mikron can produce 65nm chips but not at any decent production rate. Their factory is basically a 90nm factory.
    The 65nm chips were made probably using multiple exposure lithography. So the production, if it happened, would be at half the rate or worse.
    Mikron has KrF lithography tools. Other 65nm chips outside Mikron would be made using ArF lithography tools in a single lithography step and be much cheaper.

    Given the lack of other sources of chips Mikron should be using 90nm to maximize fab production capacity in wafers per month.

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    sepheronx
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    Post  sepheronx Sat Sep 03, 2022 8:14 am

    lancelot wrote:Mikron can produce 65nm chips but not at any decent production rate. Their factory is basically a 90nm factory.
    The 65nm chips were made probably using multiple exposure lithography. So the production, if it happened, would be at half the rate or worse.
    Mikron has KrF lithography tools. Other 65nm chips outside Mikron would be made using ArF lithography tools in a single lithography step and be much cheaper.

    Given the lack of other sources of chips Mikron should be using 90nm to maximize fab production capacity in wafers per month.

    Well, they did say they were gonna start work on some kind of new chip to take advantage of 90nm fabrication but with more modern and advanced design. It will have to do until they got their own fab equipment made.
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    Post  kvs Sat Sep 03, 2022 1:29 pm

    The 65 nm is a variation of 90 nm. It is not likely to be a simple geometry difference. Below 90 nm there is a need for new materials and new
    ways to deposit the oxide. So Mikron's 65 nm is likely a marketing term. They used the same equipment to implement it.

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    Post  lancelot Sun Sep 04, 2022 3:42 pm

    Mikron as nice as they are, simply lack production capacity. Angstrem-T have the tools but they have been sanctioned and can't easily find customers in the commercial market. Nationalization and rationalization of both is, I think, the most viable option. Perhaps Angstrem-T could be placed under Mikron. Angstrem-T would be converted to use Mikron production processes so it could supply orders like the increased demand for Mir payment card chips.

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    GunshipDemocracy
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy Mon Sep 05, 2022 3:45 am

    lancelot wrote: Angstrem-T would be converted to use Mikron production processes so it could supply orders like the increased demand for Mir payment card chips.

    Russia needs lots of electronics besides military: cars/ electric cars power-dives, robots/drones, airplanes, ship avionics, satellites, computers... this requires many thousands per year outputs.

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    sepheronx
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    Post  sepheronx Mon Sep 05, 2022 4:09 am

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    lancelot wrote: Angstrem-T would be converted to use Mikron production processes so it could supply orders like the increased demand for Mir payment card chips.

    Russia needs lots of electronics besides military: cars/ electric cars power-dives, robots/drones,  airplanes, ship avionics, satellites, computers... this requires many thousands per year outputs.

    Apparently Rostec along with Mikron has dealt with the automotive industry issue. At least last I read. But that in itself probably then starts to eat up too much for production of their other chips.

    And there are other companies as well. Mikron is just the largest in Russia. GS Nanogroup is just another one now getting involved in expanding chip production in other fields beyond what they initially did.

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    GunshipDemocracy
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy Mon Sep 05, 2022 5:11 am

    sepheronx wrote:

    Apparently Rostec along with Mikron has dealt with the automotive industry issue.  At least last I read.  But that in itself probably then starts to eat up too much for production of their other chips.

    And there are other companies as well. Mikron is just the largest in Russia.  GS Nanogroup is just another one now getting involved in expanding chip production in other fields beyond what they initially did.

    in order to make unit cost smaller they need to tackle car industry. Depending on source average car has 50-100 chips. AutoVaz manufactured ~100,000cars in 2021. So whooping number of chips will be needed for cars alone.
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    Post  sepheronx Mon Sep 05, 2022 5:44 am

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:

    Apparently Rostec along with Mikron has dealt with the automotive industry issue.  At least last I read.  But that in itself probably then starts to eat up too much for production of their other chips.

    And there are other companies as well. Mikron is just the largest in Russia.  GS Nanogroup is just another one now getting involved in expanding chip production in other fields beyond what they initially did.

    in order to make unit cost smaller they need to tackle car industry. Depending on source average car has 50-100 chips. AutoVaz manufactured ~100,000cars in 2021. So whooping number of chips will be needed for cars alone.

    Most of those chips are borderline useless. A lot can be done with a lot less chips honestly and I dont think Russian cars had as many chips to begin with. Well, beyond BMW and the like.

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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Mon Sep 05, 2022 12:21 pm

    Looking at their current capacity is not useful, because the market and situation has dramatically changed and they are under sanctions designed to damage them.

    This means investment in new chip production makes sense... even the US is moving some chip production to the US because they know how vulnerable they are if they do manage to get a war to kick off in the Pacific between China and Taiwan which could cut them off from both chip makers.

    Buying chips from China certainly makes sense but cars are just the beginning... moving forward buildings and houses are going to become more automated, and not just cars but all vehicles and aircraft too so having some safe reliable chips with no spy bullshit in them is valuable to the Russian state and the rest of the world.

    More sophisticated chips in smaller numbers also make a lot of sense too, and production of those needs to be funded as well.

    The point is that Russia is very good at new technology... after a gap, they seem to have caught up rather well in the field of weapons and making vaccines and space and ships... their biggest problem has been market size and competition from bigger companies from other countries who already supply large markets and they can take a loss to take out any fledgling Russian competition in the Russian market.

    Well now western governments have decided to give Russian companies some breathing and growing space and they need to take advantage of that... not just produce your own but work on the technology... improve it... don't just blindly copy and replicate... I am sure they can make it cheaper and easier to mass produce in useful volumes.

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    Post  sepheronx Tue Sep 06, 2022 5:40 am

    Keep an eye on rosatom. They have both the finances and technological capabilities to start producing whatever they need. They proved it too on multiple items and including upto research and development on qbits.

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    Post  lancelot Tue Sep 06, 2022 5:59 am

    Rosatom would do well to focus on this. Are they still importing EU SCADA systems and the like for nuclear power plants? At one point they were buying the nuclear power plant electronics from Siemens I think.

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    Post  sepheronx Tue Sep 06, 2022 6:02 am

    lancelot wrote:Rosatom would do well to focus on this. Are they still importing EU SCADA systems and the like for nuclear power plants? At one point they were buying the nuclear power plant electronics from Siemens I think.

    They were up until they couldn't get licenses for software and thus had to switch entirely to Russian software - Astra Linux and their in-house.

    Last I heard they were wanting to work with Elvees because they were making ARM chips using their proprietary matrix cores (something like a 48 core processor) but after sanctions? I'm assuming that's shelved.

    They may he forced to just work on their own HPC system that they were planning on doing anyway.  I think tplatforms was a no go and I can't recall the other competing companies name.

    Imagine they are just gonna keep using what they got till there is a platform they can build around.

    Last year or two has been heavy investment and evelopment of industrial computers for nearly everything using of course older elbrus tech (2CM and R-1000) so they may just look at those.

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    Post  Kiko Tue Sep 13, 2022 10:43 pm

    The expert called the way to quickly master the production of the most modern microcircuits in Russia, by Tatyana Kosolapova for VZGLYAD. 09.13.2022.

    “It is necessary to lure people from abroad, and in ready-made teams. So we can peep and learn ourselves,” tech blogger Maxim Gorshenin told the VZGLYAD newspaper, commenting on the acute shortage of qualified specialists in the development and production of Russian microelectronics.

    The Ministry of Industry and Trade of the Russian Federation has prepared an updated concept for the development of Russian microelectronics until 2030 in order to correct the main problems of the industry, Kommersant reports . The document notes that the industry has a lot of problems, in particular, technologies are lagging behind the world level by 10-15 years, there is dependence on foreign technologies, and there is also an acute shortage of qualified personnel.

    “Now in Russia there are two more or less well-known advanced factories: Mikron and Angstrem, which produce microcircuits of 180 nanometers. In order for us to have people who can set up the production of microcircuits of 3-5 nanometers, it is not enough to train specialists at the university. It is unlikely that there will be a jump from 180 to 5 nanometers,” says Gorshenin.

    He notes that developments are already underway in Russia to create their own lithographic equipment for the microelectronic industry. However, according to the expert, it will not be possible to train Russians in such technologies without help from abroad, since there are no specialists of such qualification in the country.

    “There is an option to invite from abroad. After all, there are a sufficient number of factories that own these technologies - in Taiwan, China, India, and European countries. And a few specialists will not help us. Here we need a well-coordinated team that will teach our people all the technologies,” the interlocutor argues.

    Gorshenin says they can be motivated by benefits and attractive business conditions. For example, Russia could offer to open production with us, providing gas and electricity at prices 10 times lower than in Europe or other countries. This would greatly reduce the cost of production.

    “We have educational institutions, specialists who could help to master all this, too, but not in sufficient numbers. In any case, we need to lure people from abroad, and in whole teams. So we can peep and learn for ourselves, ”concluded Gorshenin.

    At the end of August, the head of the Ministry for the Development of the Far East, Alexei Chekunkov , said that in Vladivostok, on Russky Island, the production of microcircuits could appear, but not “super advanced”, at the level of three or four nanometers, but those used for cars (60 nanometers).

    https://vz.ru/news/2022/9/13/1177365.html
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    Post  kvs Wed Sep 14, 2022 12:13 am

    The article is skewed. It makes it sound like there are no specialists in the production of such equipment at all. This is simply not true
    and I already posted before on a small company which makes makes equipment that is essentially components of the manufacturing
    equipment being developed.

    As for using the equipment, what does Mikron use? Some monkeys on typewriters? I am sure that companies which have been
    contracted to make 90 nm and smaller IC lithography equipment by 2030 can design interfaces similar to those of existing equipment
    imported from the west. No need to train specialists from scratch.

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    Post  GarryB Wed Sep 14, 2022 11:24 am

    Wanting to import trained teams sounds like a request to import some 5th columnist spies to monitor and sabotage...

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    Post  caveat emptor Mon Sep 26, 2022 5:02 pm

    Problems with mobilizing "wrong people".
    https://t.me/rybar/39388

    There's too much of that in the last days.  Other defense companies also report this:

    _______


    Colleagues, I want to ask you to publish a letter on what is happening in the microelectronic industry, and I hope the military enlistment offices and the Moscow Region will hear and take action:

    “Dear representatives of the Defense Ministry, military registration and enlistment offices, military prosecutor's office.  In the microelectronics cluster in Zelenograd: Elins, Angstrem-T, Mikron and others, and in other cities, employees are being mobilized and the numbers are planned in the hundreds.  A number of key specialists have already been taken away.  I want to clarify what microelectronics is for our country.  Each specialist, up to his level, undergoes training for at least 10 years on very expensive installations that require the highest qualifications, with very specific knowledge.  Electronics is the foundation of any modern technology.  There is a shortage of specialists in the world now, they are being collected, they are fighting for them ... and we are giving them away under a bullet, a knife and an 82-mm mine.  This human capital is worth hundreds of millions and saves billions of lives, creating technological parity for those who are at the front from simple and mass professions, and somewhere an advantage on the battlefield.  Think about it, the cycle of restoring the previous production capacity is from 10 years, and taking into account the loss of training and personnel potential in such a quantity - at least 20 years.  You will simply bury the industry.  I don't know who made this decision and who issues summonses to people working at these enterprises.  But this is just sabotage or the worst stupidity with professional incompetence, when they cannot calculate the economy and the cost of human capital.

    --
    Sincerely, Kostromin Vasily Vladimirovich
    General Director of the technology company FRAXIS LLC
    Software products, IoT and instrumentation.

    P.S. Seeing that structures for enlistment and mobilisation are same like in Serbia ( most likely inherited from Soviet Union), i can easily see why this would be happening. Only commander of the office is an officer and the rest are civilian bureaucrats. Of the worst kind i would add. These people are, very often bottom of the barrel when it comes to workforce, as they are working for very low pay. It is extremely important that this things get rectified as soon as possible and bureaucrats along with heads of enlistment offices punished. Guidelines for mobilisation were pretty clear and straightforward.
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    Post  sepheronx Mon Sep 26, 2022 6:39 pm

    That's why there was proclamation that they can state why they can't take the mobilization.  Plus everyone who got the paper isn't necessarily being forced to go and doesn't mean they will be going.

    Rybar is a collection of journalists. Like most journalists, they aren't exactly honest. But they are the better sources I admit.

    Now I know rybar grabbed it from a letter penned from a director of an it organization.  As I iterate, are they mobilized or did they just get the papers?

    Guarantee there is overlook on this as Putin said.  But sometimes things get missed. But all the people need to do is provide proof and explanation and that's it.

    So I think there is more being said than what is happening.

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