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    Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors

    Arkanghelsk
    Arkanghelsk


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    Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors - Page 37 Empty Re: Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors

    Post  Arkanghelsk Thu Jul 14, 2022 10:10 pm

    kvs wrote:

    I should have been more clear.   Currently high resolution IC production is offshored.   Russia is transitioning to 28 nm and smaller process manufacturing.
    By 2030 I think they will have 14 nm equipment domestically produced.    They basically financed projects that result in such EUV/X-ray equipment.  
    Note that Russia is not starting from scratch so the projects are not pie in the sky.

    In the next 10 years Russia needs to shop around where it can find such IC production capacity and that means China.   There are no other choices since
    Taiwan is over and western fabs are no longer accessible.    This sort of pain is exactly what Russia needs to get going.   In fact, pain/coercion is the prime
    motivator for biological systems which includes societies.  


    Yes that's true, but why would it not be possible for Russia to make these IC? I understand the economical approach,

    To have built cheap, and to make a profit for companies to be competitive

    But is it not possible to do it domestically?

    Even if the costs are higher, is there no way to localize the production and raise other benchmarks like wages and ultimately sales cost(to consumer) to compensate for the higher cost of production ?

    At least to satisfy local demand, then once Russian chipmakers and hardware makers have control over the market, THEN they can offshore to export it to the other countries?
    rigoletto
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    Post  rigoletto Thu Jul 14, 2022 11:57 pm

    kvs wrote:I should have been more clear.   Currently high resolution IC production is offshored.   Russia is transitioning to 28 nm and smaller process manufacturing.
    By 2030 I think they will have 14 nm equipment domestically produced.    They basically financed projects that result in such EUV/X-ray equipment.  
    Note that Russia is not starting from scratch so the projects are not pie in the sky.

    In the next 10 years Russia needs to shop around where it can find such IC production capacity and that means China.   There are no other choices since
    Taiwan is over and western fabs are no longer accessible.    This sort of pain is exactly what Russia needs to get going.   In fact, pain/coercion is the prime
    motivator for biological systems which includes societies.

    Based on the current state of affairs, Taiwan in a way or another come to the Chinese control around 2025/2026, then this whole political situation will change.

    Ever if not like that, this is almost certainly in the elections happening in 2024 (2025 government) will be won by the party which is pro-China.[1] The current pro-Japan (and Western) party won by a miracle in the last elections.

    [1] there are two parties: pro-China; pro-Japan (and Western).
    lancelot
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    Post  lancelot Fri Jul 15, 2022 11:49 pm

    kvs wrote:The Elbrus architecture dates back to the VLIW used in a series of those "failed" Soviet
    mainframes and is a completely Soviet design.   It is the only VLIW architecture alive and well today.   Intel failed with its EPIC since
    it could not handle the software end which is critical.
    There is another successful VLIW architecture. The former Philips Trimedia chip line.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TriMedia_%28mediaprocessor%29

    It could decode H.264 video in real-time at 90nm. TM3270 released in 2006. Right now the IP is probably available for peanuts and should get out of patent in 4-5 years.

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    caveat emptor
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    Post  caveat emptor Mon Jul 18, 2022 3:53 pm

    Putin made some comments on Rostec. Maybe Chemezov is on the way out? "Modest" translates to bad, imo. I would like to see Chemezov out. He is corrupted and not too competent. Both tech conglomerates had wrong people on the top ( Chemezov and Chubais) and it shows.

    https://tass.ru/ekonomika/15244269

    Putin announced modest results of Rostec digital projects

    According to the president, we are talking about the results "including projects for creating fifth-generation networks, developing the production of equipment for the widespread introduction of the Internet of things"
    NOVO-OGAREVO, 18 July. /TASS/. Projects for the development of end-to-end digital technologies, for which the state corporation Rostec is responsible, have shown modest results. This was stated by President Vladimir Putin at a meeting of the Council for Strategic Development and National Projects on Monday.
    “Modest results have been demonstrated in the areas for which Rostec is responsible. I know that colleagues will now say: there is not enough funding, something else. But I am simply stating the very fact of what is happening,” the head of state said.

    According to him, we are talking about the results "including projects for the creation of fifth-generation networks, the development of equipment production for the widespread introduction of the Internet of things." "And the project for the development of the microelectronic industry had to be completely restarted last year," the president said.

    Putin added that there are positive results in the work of state corporations. He noted the progress made by Sberbank in the field of artificial intelligence, Russian Railways in the field of quantum communications, Rosatom in the field of composite materials.

    "However, in general, this work cannot be considered particularly successful either. Five of the 13 areas are not being implemented, and in the rest, at least 20% of the target indicators have been achieved, and, of course, these indicators will not be achieved in 2022," the head said.

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    GunshipDemocracy
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy Tue Jul 19, 2022 12:40 am

    caveat emptor wrote:Putin made some comments on Rostec. Maybe Chemezov is on the way out? "Modest" translates to bad, imo. I would like to see Chemezov out. He is corrupted and not too competent. Both tech conglomerates had wrong people on the top ( Chemezov and Chubais) and it shows.

    https://tass.ru/ekonomika/15244269

    Putin announced modest results of Rostec digital projects

    ".

    in RIA in turn there is a bit different text"

    But I’m just stating the very fact of what is happening. generation, the development of production of equipment for widespread implementation (Internet broadcasting). The project for the development of the microelectronic industry had to be completely rebooted last year," Putin said at the Council for Strategic Development and National Projects.

    https://ria.ru/20220718/rostekh-1803213451.html

    Borisov gonr beause of this of because of making Roscosmoss better place ?

    BTW looks like Manturov is going very high up. Hope this is a good decision.
    caveat emptor
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    Post  caveat emptor Tue Jul 19, 2022 1:10 am

    I'm not sure how much did Roscosmos had with microelectronics industry. Maybe some small parts. Majority is still under Rostec. Manturov already worked in the industry. It's not like he is completely new to it. Let's see.

    P.S. Tass stated same thing about rebooting industry.

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    GunshipDemocracy
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy Tue Jul 19, 2022 1:15 am

    caveat emptor wrote:I'm not sure how much did Roscosmos had with microelectronics industry. Maybe some small parts. Majority is still under Rostec. Manturov already worked in the industry. It's not like he is completely new to it. Let's see.

    P.S. Tass stated same thing about rebooting industry.

    apologies I wasnt clear enough. Borisov AFAIK was taking care of Avangard so he somehow knows how to do things but did he fucked up microelectronics? or Roscosmoss needs someone more technically competent? BTW check thread about economical war against Russia, Manturov nicely talked about non market based industrial politics.


    https://ria.ru/20220715/promyshlennost-1802658556.html




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    caveat emptor
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    Post  caveat emptor Tue Jul 19, 2022 6:14 am

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    apologies I wasnt clear enough. Borisov AFAIK was taking care of Avangard so he somehow knows how to do things but did he fucked up microelectronics? or Roscosmoss needs someone more technically competent?  BTW check thread about economical war against Russia, Manturov nicely talked about non market based industrial politics.

    https://ria.ru/20220715/promyshlennost-1802658556.html
    Borisov was in charge of military procurement. Microelectronics industry was never under him. Only in limited quantities needed for army.
    One can say that drone development wasn't prioritized enough, but that also has to do in part with old timers in MoD.
    I am hoping that, now, shortcomings will be rectified with Manturov and better realisation of officer cadre as to what needs to be procured in bigger quantities.

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    kvs
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    Post  kvs Thu Jul 21, 2022 9:16 pm

    lancelot wrote:
    kvs wrote:The Elbrus architecture dates back to the VLIW used in a series of those "failed" Soviet
    mainframes and is a completely Soviet design.   It is the only VLIW architecture alive and well today.   Intel failed with its EPIC since
    it could not handle the software end which is critical.
    There is another successful VLIW architecture. The former Philips Trimedia chip line.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TriMedia_%28mediaprocessor%29

    It could decode H.264 video in real-time at 90nm. TM3270 released in 2006. Right now the IP is probably available for peanuts and should get out of patent in 4-5 years.


    I am talking about CPUs and not specialized processors. E2k should be compared to EPIC.

    JohninMK
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    Post  JohninMK Sat Jul 23, 2022 1:05 am

    Obviously not Russian but the implecations are obvious

    China’s Top Chipmaker Achieves Breakthrough Despite US Curbs

    Semiconductor Manufacturing International Corp. has likely advanced its production technology by two generations, defying US sanctions intended to halt the rise of China’s largest chipmaker.

    The Shanghai-based manufacturer is shipping Bitcoin-mining semiconductors built using 7-nanometer technology, industry watchers TechInsights wrote in a blog post on Tuesday. That’s well ahead of SMIC’s established 14nm technology, a measure of fabrication complexity in which narrower transistor widths help produce faster and more efficient chips. Since late 2020, the US has barred the unlicensed sale to the Chinese firm of equipment that can be used to fabricate semiconductors of 10nm and beyond, infuriating Beijing.
    ...

    SMIC’s surprising progress raises questions about how effective the export control mechanism has been and whether Washington can indeed thwart China’s ambition to foster a world-class chip industry at home and reduce reliance on foreign technologies.


    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-07-21/china-s-top-chipmaker-makes-big-tech-advances-despite-us-curbs?sref=ihFQzitE

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    sepheronx
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    Post  sepheronx Sat Jul 23, 2022 1:37 am

    Funny how it's the bitcoin and crypto industry pushing china's semiconductor r&d

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    Kiko
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    Post  Kiko Mon Jul 25, 2022 11:54 pm

    Manturov: Russia will replace Ukraine in the world neon market, 25.07.2022.

    Russia plans to increase neon production to 180,000 cubic meters next year. m and provide almost a quarter of the world's needs, said Deputy Prime Minister of Russia and head of the Ministry of Industry and Trade Denis Manturov at a meeting of President Vladimir Putin with members of the government.

    “Today, over 30% of the world volumes of the neon-helium mixture are produced in Russia, but at the site in Baumanka we plan to initially produce about 70 thousand cubic meters of neon per year, which will correspond to about 10% of the global market. And next year we will increase production to 180,000 cubic meters. And we will be able to meet almost a quarter of the world's needs. In fact, we will replace the volumes previously supplied by two Ukrainian enterprises that are now not functioning, ” TASS quotes Manturov.

    “If for neon by the end of the year it is 10% (share in the world market - approx. VZGLYAD), by the end of next year - 25%. And for xenon and krypton - also about 30%," he added.

    At the same time, Russian President Vladimir Putin pointed to a multiple difference in the levels of stocks and exports of high-purity neon, which is necessary for the radio-electronic industry.

    “In recent years, we have been actively engaged in the restoration and development of our radio-electronic industry. In this regard, one issue is important, without which it is difficult to develop this industry. I mean the production of high-purity neon. We have 30% of the world's reserves of raw materials and only 1% in the international supply of this gas to world markets,” the head of state said.

    As Putin assured, he knows that "the government is now taking active steps to radically change the situation."

    Earlier, the head of the Ministry of Industry and Trade, Denis Manturov, said that a full-scale production of pure neon was launched at the Bauman Moscow State Technical University.

    https://vz.ru/news/2022/7/25/1169353.html

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    lyle6
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    Post  lyle6 Tue Jul 26, 2022 1:35 am

    Would be wild if its all a ploy to gain more Neon market share. Normally you just out compete or even buy out the competition, but it seems Putin's the rare case of actually RETVRNING to tradition and capturing enemy property by rite of conquest Razz

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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Tue Jul 26, 2022 4:26 am

    Amusing but the reality is that if they 30% of the available material and only sell 1% then likely other countries are buying that material and purifying it themselves to make more money and then selling it as part of the rest of the 99% the world uses.
    Kiko
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    Post  Kiko Tue Aug 02, 2022 1:03 am

    This comes after Rogozin's call for the nationalization of the production of electronics for satellites:

    A major Russian manufacturer of printed circuit boards has a new owner, 01.08.2022.

    The legal entity associated with Tricolor and GS Group became the owner of the manufacturer of boards "Technotech".
    A company associated with Tricolor and GS Group has become the owner of one of the leading Russian manufacturers of printed circuit boards, Technotech. In Russia, foreign boards were mainly used, but their delivery was complicated due to sanctions.

    As follows from the SPARK data, at the end of March, Technotech LLC, one of the largest Russian manufacturers of printed circuit boards, changed its shareholder - Kaliningrad VLV LLC became the owner of 100% of the company.

    VLV, according to information on the website, specializes in the production of electronic devices - it, in particular, assembled satellite receivers to view the programs of the National Satellite Company (NSC, provides services under the Tricolor brand). The owner of 99% of VLV is Georgy Sokolov, the former general director of General Satellite-msk, which until 2017 was engaged in the sale of NSC equipment. At the same time, two sources of RBC in the electronics market claim that businessman Andrey Tkachenko became the ultimate owner of Technotech.

    https://www.rbc.ru/technology_and_media/02/08/2022/62e28a039a7947be899cb4fc

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    lancelot
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    Post  lancelot Tue Aug 02, 2022 10:21 pm

    I think it is kind of obvious that Rostec and the others were a failure in terms of microelectronics in the general term.
    Russia needs its own state owned electronics champion company I think. And the market is too small for two players.
    The electronics business needs to be gutted out and put under a new umbrella.

    Mikron, Angstrem-T, GS Nanotech, etc should be put under the same group. Technology needs to be shared and rationalized. Private enterprise and/or state enterprises need to be funded to replace vital foreign products. There are many small victories with regards to semiconductors but overall availability of Russian products is still low.

    All semi fabrication and related upstream should be under the same umbrella. Applications and high level designs should still remain private.

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    kvs
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    Post  kvs Wed Aug 03, 2022 12:17 am

    They already have examples that worked. UAC, UEC, USC, etc.

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    Backman
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    Post  Backman Mon Aug 08, 2022 7:37 pm

    I don't get why having smaller and smaller chips is so important.

    The F-35 uses a 90nm cpu that is 2 decades old, even Russia domestic production capability is above that in terms of semiconductors size.

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    kvs
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    Post  kvs Mon Aug 08, 2022 9:30 pm

    Backman wrote:I don't get why having smaller and smaller chips is so important.

    The F-35 uses a 90nm cpu that is 2 decades old, even Russia domestic production capability is above that in terms of semiconductors size.

    Just look at the desktop CPU and chipset resolutions fro the late 90s and before 2010. They are at resolutions that
    Russian can manufacture today. I would not call those ICs useless. Parallel processing has been a thing for a while
    now. Several CPU units with several cores are substantial computing resources.

    But as has been mentioned before, military computing needs are not general purpose and HPC. They need custom ASICs
    handling signal processing. Custom ICs on 90 nm lithography can do the job today and for years to come.

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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Tue Aug 09, 2022 3:54 am

    Perhaps they could look at the IBM PC form factors and develop something completely new that utilises more processors to speed different functions up.

    The old Amiga computer had custom chips for various jobs that reduced the load on the CPU... in a sense IBM clones started doing that too with graphics cards and sound cards taking jobs away from the CPU, but I would think that Russia could change the design and take that further and use more CPUs and graphics and audio and other custom chips to boost speed bottlenecks that traditionally slow down computers.

    They are also developing their own software anyway so why not customise it to take advantage of different processors of different types and different arrangements.

    The advantage of having dozens of CPUs is that when you upgrade them and improve each ones performance the performance increase is multiplied by the number of CPUs in each machine... and none of your chips are actually very expensive... so it wont cost a lot.

    Some chips might benefit greatly from being speeded up, while others wont matter so much... say with IO functions like the old Southbridge.

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