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40 posters
"Hermes" multi-purpose guided missile:
magnumcromagnon- Posts : 8142
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kvs- Posts : 14475
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Unlike the vaunted Javelin, this missile really does have the potential to be a turret top devastator weapon and at much greater range.
Isos- Posts : 11001
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I don't see what it brings more than a kornet or a drone mounted atgm since it needs an operator near the target or a drone above it to use a laser. For that matter they could directly use a kornet with a top attack mode.
It seems to also use russian GPS to go near the target and switch to laser detector. This can be jammed. They better use optical guidance all the way or inertial navigation.
They should add some sort of datalink so the operator in the truck controls it all the way.
It seems to also use russian GPS to go near the target and switch to laser detector. This can be jammed. They better use optical guidance all the way or inertial navigation.
They should add some sort of datalink so the operator in the truck controls it all the way.
George1- Posts : 18065
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GarryB wrote:Should add a link to the company that makes it and their information regarding the weapon...
It seems to have been updated and shows the launcher above:
http://www.kbptula.ru/en/productions/multi-service-weapon-systems/germes-a-2
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medo- Posts : 4337
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It looks like Hermes is a kind of guided MLRS.
marcellogo- Posts : 582
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I think Hermes is clearly derivative of the missile carried by Pntsir, jut to e declined in a variety of different roles and vectors.medo wrote:It looks like Hermes is a kind of guided MLRS.
What have it of different from similar weapons developed by opponents/concurrents?
The clearest one is speed: derivation from an AA missiles mean a supersonic velocity coupled with a great manoeuvrability.
It is there shown in a long range, indirect fire version hence being guided in semi-active mode in the last part of its flying envelope but I think it would have also a version with an autonomous terminal guidance one.
flamming_python
flamming_python- Posts : 8976
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Isos wrote:I don't see what it brings more than a kornet or a drone mounted atgm since it needs an operator near the target or a drone above it to use a laser. For that matter they could directly use a kornet with a top attack mode.
It seems to also use russian GPS to go near the target and switch to laser detector. This can be jammed. They better use optical guidance all the way or inertial navigation.
They should add some sort of datalink so the operator in the truck controls it all the way.
As I recall earlier material on the Hermes did mention remote-guidance optical modes and such, but may be wrong
I don't see any reason why this can't be used as an entirely inertial/GLONASS guided missile either, for hitting stationary targets
A Kornet has a much shorter range, and is also a company-level weapon; its operators won't have access to the same reconnaissance, telemetry data that a regiment/brigade level system like this would have.
You can have drones with ATGMs of course, but so far Russia hasn't introduced any into service, and the ones that will be, will be quite heavy-duty expensive machines.
Here all you need is a small drone with a laser pointer.
But really the best use-case is for SOF teams that sneak around somewhere; and there's nothing in the sky or on the ground to alert the enemy to any danger. And suddenly a wave of missiles come and devastate a tank column or some general's command vehicle
So in this sense, sort of like the Krasnopol and so on, and how it was rumored to be used in the Donbass.
GarryB- Posts : 37234
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I don't see what it brings more than a kornet or a drone mounted atgm since it needs an operator near the target or a drone above it to use a laser. For that matter they could directly use a kornet with a top attack mode.
Well this isn't just an ATGM... the 28kg warhead means it is about 5kg lighter than an entire Kornet missile that is 33kgs at launch.
Also instead of being supersonic at about 400m/s it moves at an initial speed of 1.3km/s thanks to a large solid rocket booster.
It seems to also use russian GPS to go near the target and switch to laser detector. This can be jammed. They better use optical guidance all the way or inertial navigation.
This is supposed to be missile 305 which is launched towards a specific point in space based on Glonass signals where it starts looking for targets using an IIR seeker with a datalink back to the launch platform. The IIR seeker can see laser spots to attack marked targets, but it can also look for other targets of interest based on their shape and whether they are moving or not.
It says on the webpage:
For day-and-night engagement of modern and advanced tanks, lightly armored targets, buildings and fortifications, surface and air targets.
They should add some sort of datalink so the operator in the truck controls it all the way.
How is the operator in the truck supposed to find a target 100km away?
It looks like Hermes is a kind of guided MLRS.
Essentially yes... a system to take out point targets behind enemy lines...
But the air launched model is much smaller and used over shorter distances, but probably against similar targets...
I think Hermes is clearly derivative of the missile carried by Pntsir, jut to e declined in a variety of different roles and vectors.
What have it of different from similar weapons developed by opponents/concurrents?
Actually Hermes and SA-19/-22 and Pine/Sosna are all narrow slim low drag missiles with large rear tandem mounted solid booster rockets...
I don't see any reason why this can't be used as an entirely inertial/GLONASS guided missile either, for hitting stationary targets
Indeed, the terminal optronic component should be able to determine the outline of a radar for a SAM battery or even an artillery radar or a building for an HQ.
You can have drones with ATGMs of course, but so far Russia hasn't introduced any into service, and the ones that will be, will be quite heavy-duty expensive machines.
Here all you need is a small drone with a laser pointer.
And aircraft mounted laser target markers have evolved too... it is my understanding that the laser target marker on the MiG-35 has a range against ground targets of up to 30km... and according to the definition above these missiles can be used against aircraft too... so a couple of trucks pull up and raise their launch tubes and fire a volley of 20 odd missiles that come down 90km distance amongst a HATO helicopter staging area and take down 20 helicopters... on the ground or in the air nearby...
PhSt- Posts : 1095
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Rostec said that one missile of the new Hermes complex will destroy any western tank
KUBINKA / Moscow region /, August 27. / TASS /. A single supersonic missile of Russia's latest Hermes long-range complex will destroy any Western tank with a nearly 100% guarantee, as confirmed by tests. This was reported to TASS at the Army forum by a representative of the company-developer KBP im. Shipunova (part of the "High-precision complexes" corporation "Rostec").
"Based on the results of the full cycle of tests of the Hermes at the range with the destruction of various types of targets, it was concluded that one single missile of the complex is enough to guarantee the destruction of any existing Western tank," the agency's interlocutor said, adding that the probability of defeat in this case is 98 -99%.
The company representative noted that the deviation of the Hermes missile from the target, even when firing at a maximum range of 100 km, is only 50 centimeters. In this case, the ammunition has a flight speed of more than four speeds of sound.
The Hermes includes several unmanned aerial vehicles for reconnaissance and guidance, which provide target detection and illumination.
For the first time, Hermes was presented to the general public within the framework of the Army-2020 military-technical forum. One of its features is a compact combat module with launchers for six missiles. This unit can be installed on any chassis, including armored vehicles.
"Hermes" can conduct salvo fire at six targets at once. In addition to enemy armored vehicles, the missiles of the complex are effective against command or staff vehicles, communication centers, and warehouses. The warhead of the rocket is a high-explosive fragmentation and contains 20 kg of TNT.
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Scorpius- Posts : 1257
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The development of new missiles started on the basis of technical solutions of the project of the Hermes missile system. The main difference between the weapons, which received the working designation "Klevok-D2", will be the use of a new ramjet engine (RAMJET). It will actually accelerate the missile to hypersonic speed, which will dramatically increase its range and make it invulnerable to modern air defense systems.
iz.ru/1081898/anton-lavrov-roman-kretcul/iskander-mladshii-voennye-poluchat-giperzvukovye-minirakety
So, tactical hypersound for the Russian ground forces, based on the "Tigers" as well.
iz.ru/1081898/anton-lavrov-roman-kretcul/iskander-mladshii-voennye-poluchat-giperzvukovye-minirakety
So, tactical hypersound for the Russian ground forces, based on the "Tigers" as well.
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Hole- Posts : 9644
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Which means a "deep strike" capacity down to company level.
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magnumcromagnon- Posts : 8142
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Hole wrote:Which means a "deep strike" capacity down to company level.
It should also be noted that the 6-pack version is meant for smaller vehicles. The full sized version should have 4x as many missiles (24).
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GarryB- Posts : 37234
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I remember an early mockup with a truck vehicle that looked like a Grad launcher with about 40 rockets...
So essentially these new missiles they have started working on will have a ramjet in the final rocket stage so it will have powered all the way flight.
For the next few years however there will be two model Hermes, a smaller lighter 170mm calibre model for launch from aircraft with a range of 25-30km against ground targets, and the larger calibre ground launched 210mm missile...note both missiles are 130mm calibre and presumably have IIR seekers with datalinks for target acquisition for use against armour and hard targets with 20kgs HE warheads presumably meaning the 9kgs extra is fragmentation material (29kg warhead).
The ground launched missile has a range of 100km, and both seem to have very good accuracy.
In 5 years or so they will have an improved missile with a ramjet powered missile that manouvers all the way to the target to evade air defences and has double the warhead weight too....
Interesting.
The air launched missile has a smaller lighter solid rocket booster, but the new missile will have the ground launched rockets booster motor... they didn't say if it was a ground or air launched model.
Being ramjet powered I would expect they would expand its size to fill the tube because extra fuel is worth more than reduced drag by making it thin.
Nice, but while they look like guided Grads they are more like Kh-25s for hitting point targets on or near the enemy front line launched from further back hopefully.
Often 6 will be plenty to blunt an attack or take out specific targets... like enemy SAM batteries or radars to leave them vulnerable to a follow up attack from cheaper simpler older model HERMES missiles perhaps?
So essentially these new missiles they have started working on will have a ramjet in the final rocket stage so it will have powered all the way flight.
For the next few years however there will be two model Hermes, a smaller lighter 170mm calibre model for launch from aircraft with a range of 25-30km against ground targets, and the larger calibre ground launched 210mm missile...note both missiles are 130mm calibre and presumably have IIR seekers with datalinks for target acquisition for use against armour and hard targets with 20kgs HE warheads presumably meaning the 9kgs extra is fragmentation material (29kg warhead).
The ground launched missile has a range of 100km, and both seem to have very good accuracy.
In 5 years or so they will have an improved missile with a ramjet powered missile that manouvers all the way to the target to evade air defences and has double the warhead weight too....
Interesting.
The air launched missile has a smaller lighter solid rocket booster, but the new missile will have the ground launched rockets booster motor... they didn't say if it was a ground or air launched model.
Being ramjet powered I would expect they would expand its size to fill the tube because extra fuel is worth more than reduced drag by making it thin.
It should also be noted that the 6-pack version is meant for smaller vehicles. The full sized version should have 4x as many missiles (24).
Nice, but while they look like guided Grads they are more like Kh-25s for hitting point targets on or near the enemy front line launched from further back hopefully.
Often 6 will be plenty to blunt an attack or take out specific targets... like enemy SAM batteries or radars to leave them vulnerable to a follow up attack from cheaper simpler older model HERMES missiles perhaps?
KoTeMoRe- Posts : 4212
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Universal tactical missile. Germes can be alternatively used as SAM or SSM.
The-thing-next-door- Posts : 1197
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KoTeMoRe wrote:Universal tactical missile. Germes can be alternatively used as SAM or SSM.
Dammit how can I write About futuristic Russian scifi weapons when they keep making them into reality this fast.
Any ideas as to what I could write about Russia using as ATGM equivalents in a few thousand years time, it seems that universal (my fictional missiles were much faster than hypersonic) missiles are too mundane by Russian standards.
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magnumcromagnon- Posts : 8142
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The-thing-next-door wrote:KoTeMoRe wrote:Universal tactical missile. Germes can be alternatively used as SAM or SSM.
Dammit how can I write About futuristic Russian scifi weapons when they keep making them into reality this fast.
Any ideas as to what I could write about Russia using as ATGM equivalents in a few thousand years time, it seems that universal (my fictional missiles were much faster than hypersonic) missiles are too mundane by Russian standards.
This isn't new for KBTula, the Baikal-M command posts that come with Pantsir systems allow Kornet ATGM's to engage helicopters and even low-flying cruise missiles, and Vikhr-M ATGM (also from KBTula) can basically do the same.
The-thing-next-door- Posts : 1197
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magnumcromagnon wrote:
This isn't new for KBTula, the Baikal-M command posts that come with Pantsir systems allow Kornet ATGM's to engage helicopters and even low-flying cruise missiles, and Vikhr-M ATGM (also from KBTula) can basically do the same.
Yes but not that well and you could only engage helicopters and drones with thoes.
magnumcromagnon- Posts : 8142
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The-thing-next-door wrote:magnumcromagnon wrote:
This isn't new for KBTula, the Baikal-M command posts that come with Pantsir systems allow Kornet ATGM's to engage helicopters and even low-flying cruise missiles, and Vikhr-M ATGM (also from KBTula) can basically do the same.
Yes but not that well and you could only engage helicopters and drones with thoes.
They can engage cruise missiles, they've (Kornets) been said to be excellent in head-on-engagements, but chasing targets less so. They're capable of engaging targets at 9km in altitude, a lot of ground strike aircraft fly under 5km such as A-10 Warthog's, which would be turned to flaming wreckage if hit with a Kornet ATGM.
KoTeMoRe- Posts : 4212
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magnumcromagnon wrote:The-thing-next-door wrote:KoTeMoRe wrote:Universal tactical missile. Germes can be alternatively used as SAM or SSM.
Dammit how can I write About futuristic Russian scifi weapons when they keep making them into reality this fast.
Any ideas as to what I could write about Russia using as ATGM equivalents in a few thousand years time, it seems that universal (my fictional missiles were much faster than hypersonic) missiles are too mundane by Russian standards.
This isn't new for KBTula, the Baikal-M command posts that come with Pantsir systems allow Kornet ATGM's to engage helicopters and even low-flying cruise missiles, and Vikhr-M ATGM (also from KBTula) can basically do the same.
The difference is that here the same missile is used for both. And the said missile goes almost mach 4. basically it can serve as an Universal missile.
magnumcromagnon- Posts : 8142
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KoTeMoRe wrote:magnumcromagnon wrote:The-thing-next-door wrote:KoTeMoRe wrote:Universal tactical missile. Germes can be alternatively used as SAM or SSM.
Dammit how can I write About futuristic Russian scifi weapons when they keep making them into reality this fast.
Any ideas as to what I could write about Russia using as ATGM equivalents in a few thousand years time, it seems that universal (my fictional missiles were much faster than hypersonic) missiles are too mundane by Russian standards.
This isn't new for KBTula, the Baikal-M command posts that come with Pantsir systems allow Kornet ATGM's to engage helicopters and even low-flying cruise missiles, and Vikhr-M ATGM (also from KBTula) can basically do the same.
The difference is that here the same missile is used for both. And the said missile goes almost mach 4. basically it can serve as an Universal missile.
It depends at what altitude it's flying. 1.3km/s translates to approximately 4,500-4,700km/h. At sea-level that's under Mach 4, but at 20km altitude that's approximately Mach 4.4-4.5 average speed. At a steep dive it could easily hit Mach 5.
magnumcromagnon- Posts : 8142
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Promising anti-tank complex "Hermes" will receive a new version
The promising Hermes anti-tank complex may receive a new version with a faster and more powerful missile. It is reported by RIA News with reference to the industrial director of the Rostec weapons complex Bekkhan Ozdoev.
Rostec plans to begin development work to create a new Hermes 2.0 strike complex. The development will be carried out on the basis of the promising Hermes complex, which is currently undergoing demonstration tests for the Ministry of Defense.
This complex has great potential for further improvement. In this regard, experimental design work is planned, which provides for an increase in the combat power of the missile by 2-2,5 times and an increase in its flight speed. This will be a version of the Hermes 2.0 complex
- said Ozdoev.
The basic version of the promising anti-tank complex "Hermes" was presented during the military-technical forum "Army-2020".
"Hermes" has a compact combat module with launchers for six missiles and can fire salvo fire at six targets at a distance of up to 100 km. Each missile has a high-explosive fragmentation warhead, contains twenty-eight kilograms in TNT equivalent and develops a maximum speed of up to 1300 m / s. The complex can be used against both armored vehicles and stationary fortifications, warehouses, communication centers, etc.
The special advantage of the new complex is that it can be installed on any platform, and the "fire and forget" system allows you to direct missiles to the target using drones or ships.
https://en.topwar.ru/179598-perspektivnyj-protivotankovyj-kompleks-germes-poluchit-novuju-versiju.html
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GarryB- Posts : 37234
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It depends at what altitude it's flying. 1.3km/s translates to approximately 4,500-4,700km/h. At sea-level that's under Mach 4, but at 20km altitude that's approximately Mach 4.4-4.5 average speed. At a steep dive it could easily hit Mach 5.
Keep in mind that 1.3km/s is the solid rocket booster burn out speed... the new versions will have a ramjet sustainer and will likely go faster as it travels and burns fuel and gets lighter.
Promising anti-tank complex "Hermes" will receive a new version
So essentially they are starting development of Hermes II before Hermes has entered full production and service.
Krepost- Posts : 641
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Testing.
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GarryB- Posts : 37234
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This reminds me to also point out that the LMUR missile is different and its guidance using a two way datalink autopilot using GLONASS and then an IIR seeker to find and identify its own targets with confirmation from the datalink would be as useful at 100km plus range as it would at 25km.
So this missile being tested above is essentially the new Pantsir-SM missile with a range of 40-45km, but that is likely because it does not use a lofted trajectory to maximise flight range.
This would allow it to reach the 100km range simply by a lofted flight trajectory and a diving top attack profile that would be ideal for engaging armoured vehicles.
To reach 100km of course it would not be able to manouver a lot because the second stage is slim and low drag and probably not powered in flight so any manouvers it performs will reduce speed and range.
The upgrade sounds like it has a scramjet or ramjet sustainer which would allow for much greater range and much higher speeds and the ability to manouver to impact making it much harder to intercept.
The launch tube is already big to allow for the enlarged solid rocket booster on this model so adding an engine and fuel to the missile component filling up the tubes available space makes sense... the increased drag is more than compensated by the thrust of the jet powered missile...
So this missile being tested above is essentially the new Pantsir-SM missile with a range of 40-45km, but that is likely because it does not use a lofted trajectory to maximise flight range.
This would allow it to reach the 100km range simply by a lofted flight trajectory and a diving top attack profile that would be ideal for engaging armoured vehicles.
To reach 100km of course it would not be able to manouver a lot because the second stage is slim and low drag and probably not powered in flight so any manouvers it performs will reduce speed and range.
The upgrade sounds like it has a scramjet or ramjet sustainer which would allow for much greater range and much higher speeds and the ability to manouver to impact making it much harder to intercept.
The launch tube is already big to allow for the enlarged solid rocket booster on this model so adding an engine and fuel to the missile component filling up the tubes available space makes sense... the increased drag is more than compensated by the thrust of the jet powered missile...
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Pantsir and Hermes
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