Mi-24/35M Hinds: News

In this case it might just mean an upgraded Shturm/Ataka guidance transmitter that allows the use of Krisantema, rather than a mast mounted radar system.

Of course if they have successfully designed a mast mounted radar system that works there is no reason not to put it on Hinds as well as Havocs.

There was already a project for equipping Mi-24's with Fire Control Radar of the type Scorpion an ukrainian made radar in MMW-bandwith with about 5km effective classification and guidance by year 1988/89 and in same year funds were stopped through cuts.

Link here
http://lreri.tripod.com/
Download the 3.8 mb file of their products and on page 8 of the modernisation of Cobra and Ataka missiles through miniature radio guidance command to page-10 describes:

ENTERPRISEFrom the early eighties the LRERI began to work on creation of the millimeter-wave band (MMW) radar aids designed for search, detection and high-precision measurement of coordinates of ground targets as a component of ground and onboard weapon complexes; navigation safety control of ground aids, helicopters, sea and river vessels, ballistic preparation fire support.These aids expand the high-precision weapon combat capabilities by:all-day and all-weather application unlike the optical and infra-red band aids high security and noise immunity unlike the RF longer-wavelength means small dimensions and weight of the equipment, allowing to install it on carriers of all classes (ground vehicles, airborne and missile, ammunition)Integration with optical and infrared band means.
ENTERPRISEThe Institute has developed production of the MMW short wavelength (SW) radar equipment. To this end:wide co-operation of developers and manufacturers of base components and metrological support has been created widespread investigations of the characteristics of the ground target and background radar portraits for the radar equipment construction optimization have been carried out principles of construction and technology of solid-state coherent pulse, pulse and Doppler radars and their components (antenna-feeder devices, transceiver paths, signal and control processor modules) have been developed large-size anechoic chamber (AEC) for developing the MMW radars and their components (50 х12 х8 m) has been created and equipped.

Further on page 16:

ENTERPRISEThe LRERI developments for the last years are as follows: creation of the prototype of the small-base passive complex for space radio monitoring and positioning of radio-frequency radiation sources of air and ground objects and the MMW radar-seeker for the aircraft air-to-surface missiles.

Page 61 has pictures of the "miniature radio command link for anti-tank complexes" and on Page 62 you see it is the Mi-28 Ataka radio command link aswell the recievers for ATGM's launched from various vehicles.

So indeed what you've suggested this LRERI radars like scorpion version for Hinds were also intented for radar guided missiles


This data file contains also few informations about radar self-guided ammunition such as 120mm Mortars (page 38) and Shtora and Arena sensoring and radars. (page 87-102) there are lot of other products described for all who are interested.

Keep in mind that attack helos have gone for decades without radars and even the US did not fit Longbow radars to all AH-64D Longbow Apache helos because of the cost.... and the fact that they didn't actually all need them.

And on page 68 starting the MMW radar prototypes, it doesn't give lot of information about the specific MMW radars which were during that state under tests,however i personally doubt the MMW radar such of version scorpion were mast-mounded radars,since Hinds would had during 88/89 hard time to proper functional through non composite blades, which also were reason why Apaches had mostly used Laser guided Hellfires rather than FCR, through reliability issues which were unsolved till 2012/13 same goes for Arbalet for Mi-28N.

It just makes sense for them to transfer all the new stuff they have developed for the Mi-28N and Mi-28NM to the older helos as it increases production numbers, improves commonality and training and maintainence issues and also increases performance.

I also think it's mostly more effecient to further upgrade existing Hinds with new technologies, they are by far better plattforms for upgrades than the most helicopters and there is always room for special equipment or for reduction of weight through more modern materials like they did with VM/PM models from prior models reducing weight about 1-1.2tones empty weight.

BTW has anyone got any footage of a Hind firing its chin turret mounted twin 23mm gun?

Unfortunatley, i couldn't find much.

PS: Don't know what went wrong by first post tried to edit it and came twice to a double post...

Oops mate, they are talking about the command control system already developed and in standard use.

The first was AT-2 Swatter missiles (Falanga) that uses a radio command signal to direct the missile in flight.

This results in a higher flight speed than if it dragged a wire for commands, but is also means the launching helo is free to manouver while engaging targets as the wire wont snag on things and break.

Shturm and Ataka are the next two command guidance missiles and both use a radio command frequency in the 35GHz range which is MMW radar frequency.

The companys range of equipment in the link you gave is outdated Soviet stuff, the Russian company that makes the radio command missiles (ie ataka and now Kristantema) is this one: http://www.kbm.ru/production/ptrk/

KBP is also working on MMW radar seekers for HERMES missiles too.

I've heard that the soviet MCLOS missiles had worthless chances of a hit(20% at most) but that largely depended on the experience of the operator. Did western operators of MCLOS missiles have better training using them?

Mi-24 and Mi-28 have radio missile guiding antenna in black radome. Krizanthema have similarly big radar antenna and this radar is used to search for targets, tracking targets and guiding Krizanthema missiles on the target. They could replace Sturm/Ataka missile guiding antenna on Mi-28N with krizanthema type radar, that it could be able to search targets with radar and guide missiles with it. Very useful for heavy smoke or fog.

The companys range of equipment in the link you gave is outdated Soviet stuff, the Russian company that makes the radio command missiles (ie ataka and now Kristantema) is this one:

Of course it's outdated GarryB, i was refering to the Mi-24 programm in 1988/89 which was "officially" cut off from funding, but the Scorpion radars of Ukrainian company where used instead of radio command link for Ataka/Shturm ATGM, with limited capability of 3-5km.

You were refering that they could possibly use masst mounted radar, but i rather doubt it since mast mounted radars have disadvantages in flight performance and the doctrine for "mast mounting sights and radars" are for helicopters with small size and more maneuverable that they can hide more easily behind obstecales, which is even for Mi-35M (Mi-24VM2) not the so easy like for Tigers,Apaches,Havocs or even Black Sharks and Alligators. So this is why i refered to the project of 88/89 which would definitley fit more to a Hind.

Mast mounted sights are not only for small and manouverable helos... the Mi-40 which was a model of a design they were looking at that combined the Mi-24 with the Mi-28N would have been a very big and heavy helo but it had a MMS.

To use a MMS you don't need manouverability... any helo can hover behind cover and use a mast mounted system to observe targets.

Very simply the radar system on Hinds was a command link to guide missiles... anything they might have had in the late 80s would be seriously inferior to what they are fitting to their Mi-28Ns now. There would be no point in resurrecting an old system when new systems have been developed.

It makes rather more sense to update Hinds with Havoc equipment in terms of cost and commonality.

I've heard that the soviet MCLOS missiles had worthless chances of a hit(20% at most) but that largely depended on the experience of the operator. Did western operators of MCLOS missiles have better training using them?

Western operators were just as susceptable to problems like enemy fire putting them off their aim. The US Army missile called Dragon was particularly awful as its propulsion consisted of about 60 odd side thrusting jet modules... as the missile slowly rolled in flight a rocket pointing down and forward was used to keep the missile in the air and on its way to its target and movements by the operator would result in a side thruster firing to get the missile on target. Obviously if you moved the sight around a lot it would run out of thruster modules and the missile would plow into the ground short of the target.

I have some CNN footage of Mujahadeen forces trying to fire a Milan ATGM at a T-54 tank from a ridgeline a km or so away... they kept missing. The CNN reporter called it artillery.

The Soviets pioneered the widespread use of guided anti tank missiles and also unguided weapons like RPG etc. Their weapons were very widely deployed and constantly updated... at a time when their performance was low they were at least in widespread service unlike the very expensive western equivalents which were not generally better. Shillalagh is probably the only missile system that has entered and left service, seen several conflicts where it could have been used, yet never used effectively in combat.

Very simply the radar system on Hinds was a command link to guide missiles... anything they might have had in the late 80s would be seriously inferior to what they are fitting to their Mi-28Ns now. There would be no point in resurrecting an old system when new systems have been developed.

It makes rather more sense to update Hinds with Havoc equipment in terms of cost and commonality.

I think Hind will no more do the job of tank killer, which will be now in hands of Mi-28N and Ka-52. Hind still poses capability to transport 8 soldiers, so it will be more used in anti insurgent roles or to transport and support small groups of scouts or specials in their missions. For that job it doesn't need radar, but modern night optics for night operations, what Mi-35 have. In case of emergency it could still fight with tanks with Ataka ATGMs.