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    Iran Air Force (IRIAF) | News and Discussions

    d_taddei2
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    Post  d_taddei2 Thu Nov 04, 2021 3:34 pm

    Does anyone know current figures on Iranian aircraft numbers, it always hard to find a correct source. Figures are quite wild depending on sources. I know it's hard considering it's secrecy that Iran always has. Quite keen to find out homegrown aircraft figures. What is clear is that Iran's air force is in need of updating and replacement in certain areas. I think the kowsar and the upgraded su-22 are good, for what they are. But they can't fufil every role. Iran could actually offer both of these upgrades for other countries using F-5 and Su-22.
    For su-22 Angola, Syria, and Vietnam could use the upgrade.
    If they produce kowsar they could sell on the open market, African countries, south American countries would be ideal customers. Of course the elephant in room is sanctions or fear of sanctions.
    d_taddei2
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    Post  d_taddei2 Tue Dec 07, 2021 9:24 pm

    I am actually surprised Iran didn't copy the F-4. The F-5 is cheaper to maintain and produce, but a homegrown F-4 would have been far more useful and not much more advanced than the F-5. Iran has already copied parts for the F-4 and used Soviet/Russian and Chinese parts and apparently weapons as well. So would be better to advance that into production. The F-4 is still a good multirole aircraft and far less complicated than the F-14. And with more modern upgrades would be useful to them more so than the F-5, although don't get me wrong they didn't do too bad with a copy of the F-5, it's just that they need something a little more capable and a multirole F-4 would have helped there airforce. They did manage to secretly obtain parts from Europe etc to maintain their current ones and there is plenty out there on scrap heap to be had.
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    Post  GarryB Wed Dec 08, 2021 7:01 am

    The F-4 is not anything like a simple aircraft and like most supersonic fighters requires precision and materials that smaller slower cheaper planes do not.

    If they could build F-4s then, they could build MiG-29s now, and while they are very capable in many areas the effort needed to make F-4s it would actually make more sense to make F-14s with F-4 level components...

    For all the effort it would take it would be vastly cheaper and easier and faster to just buy some MiGs or Sukhois or Mirages...

    It makes sense to make your own cheap light simple fighter as long as it remains simple cheap and light because they can be produced in numbers that make the development and reverse engineering worth it.

    Designing an Iranian F-4 and then making 200 would not be practical or sensible.

    They had to make spare parts to keep their aircraft running, but building a complete aircraft is a lot more work with more costs and more risks and unless you want to make thousands it isn't worth it most of the time.
    nomadski
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    Post  nomadski Wed Dec 08, 2021 7:27 am


    d_taddei2 wrote :


    "......Does anyone know current figures on Iranian aircraft numbers, it always hard to find a correct source. Figures are quite wild depending on sources. I know it's hard considering it's secrecy that Iran always has. Quite keen to find out homegrown aircraft figures. What is clear is that Iran's air force is in need of updating and replacement in certain areas. I think the kowsar and the upgraded su-22 are good, for what they are. But they can't fufil every role. Iran could actually offer both of these upgrades for other countries using F-5 and Su-22.
    For su-22 Angola, Syria, and Vietnam could use the upgrade.
    If they produce kowsar they could sell on the open market, African countries, south American countries would be ideal customers. Of course the elephant in room is sanctions or fear of sanctions......"

    I was thinking about this , late last night . Iran claims it made F5 copy ! But it made only 3 planes ?! Does not make sense . If they invested in tooling for making the F5 clone , then this is main cost of project . It costs far less thereafter to make , say 50 units . And they would be very useful too . Even in close ground support . Iran has still some functioning old planes for ground support , but I am sure addition of say 50 , planes would be very useful .

    But they did not do this . And also they did not buy any planes from Russia ! I thought the reason is money , but they are making many Drones and Ships at high cost . But no planes ?? This means their defence policy is not based on planes ! This shows asymmetrical thinking in defence . Now what systems are asymmetric ? If we think a bit , we understand where they are heading ........
    d_taddei2
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    Post  d_taddei2 Wed Dec 08, 2021 8:36 am

    nomadski wrote:
    d_taddei2 wrote :


    "......Does anyone know current figures on Iranian aircraft numbers, it always hard to find a correct source. Figures are quite wild depending on sources. I know it's hard considering it's secrecy that Iran always has. Quite keen to find out homegrown aircraft figures. What is clear is that Iran's air force is in need of updating and replacement in certain areas. I think the kowsar and the upgraded su-22 are good, for what they are. But they can't fufil every role. Iran could actually offer both of these upgrades for other countries using F-5 and Su-22.
    For su-22 Angola, Syria, and Vietnam could use the upgrade.
    If they produce kowsar they could sell on the open market, African countries, south American countries would be ideal customers. Of course the elephant in room is sanctions or fear of sanctions......"

    I was thinking about this , late last night . Iran claims it made F5 copy ! But it made only 3 planes ?! Does not make sense . If they invested in tooling for making the F5 clone , then this is main cost of project . It costs far less thereafter to make , say 50 units . And they would be very useful too . Even in close ground support . Iran has still some functioning old planes for ground support , but I am sure addition of say 50 , planes would be very useful .

    But they did not do this . And also they did not buy any planes from Russia ! I thought the reason is money , but  they are making many Drones and Ships at high cost . But no planes ?? This means their defence policy is not based on planes ! This shows asymmetrical thinking in defence . Now what systems are asymmetric ? If we think a bit , we understand where they are heading ........

    They did not do what?

    I didn't say they did buy aircraft from Russia, so not sure what Ur talking about.

    Iran has been under various sanctions for decades so had no real option but for asymmetric warfare, drones and missiles a bit like north Korea, although the latter not so much on drones but more on missiles etc.

    But Iran can only achieve so much on its own and would nee to make serious purchases to modernise it armed forces. But it seems they are currently happy play a three card game, drones, missiles and quads forces. Not the safest bet.
    d_taddei2
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    Post  d_taddei2 Wed Dec 08, 2021 8:41 am

    GarryB wrote:The F-4 is not anything like a simple aircraft and like most supersonic fighters requires precision and materials that smaller slower cheaper planes do not.

    If they could build F-4s then, they could build MiG-29s now, and while they are very capable in many areas the effort needed to make F-4s it would actually make more sense to make F-14s with F-4 level components...

    For all the effort it would take it would be vastly cheaper and easier and faster to just buy some MiGs or Sukhois or Mirages...

    It makes sense to make your own cheap light simple fighter as long as it remains simple cheap and light because they can be produced in numbers that make the development and reverse engineering worth it.

    Designing an Iranian F-4 and then making 200 would not be practical or sensible.

    They had to make spare parts to keep their aircraft running, but building a complete aircraft is a lot more work with more costs and more risks and unless you want to make thousands it isn't worth it most of the time.

    The same could be said for their homegrown F-5 unless they plan to make hundreds its not worth it. And let's face it on paper and a few aircraft the kowsar is ok, but they have failed to produce it any meaningful numbers so it's been a failure.

    I would suggest Iran now looks to purchase or get help from China or russian in production of an aircraft from there inventory.

    All of Iran's aircraft are growing old and no real upgrades available they will become obsolete. Only aircraft worth upgrading now is the Su-25 (only six in number) and Su-24.
    nomadski
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    Post  nomadski Wed Dec 08, 2021 9:04 am

    @ d_taddei2

    "....They did not do what?I didn't say they did buy aircraft from Russia, so not sure what Ur talking about.Iran has been under various sanctions for decades so had no real option but for asymmetric warfare, drones and missiles a bit like north Korea, although the latter not so much on drones but more on missiles etc. But Iran can only achieve so much on its own and would nee to make serious purchases to modernise it armed forces. But it seems they are currently happy play a three card game, drones, missiles and quads forces. Not the safest bet....."


    They did not manufacture the F5 clone in any numbers , despite claiming that they could ! And JCPOA limitations  regime ended ( since JCPOA not adhered to by USA , becomes null and void ) Iran stuck to the deal , and was legally able thereafter to  buy planes , say from Russia or China , without permission from UNSC , as wrongly stated by Russia . But they  ( Russia or China ) did not sign contract either for sales .Iran did not push hard for them , only preliminary discussions by MOD .They have some money still to build ships and AD and Drones . Therefore their defence policy is somewhat by choice ,  is not based on conventional air power . Or conventional defence . Recently during the Nuclear " negotiations"  , they stated that , they have four satellites ready to be launched !

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    d_taddei2
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    Post  d_taddei2 Wed Dec 08, 2021 5:43 pm

    nomadski wrote:@ d_taddei2

    "....They did not do what?I didn't say they did buy aircraft from Russia, so not sure what Ur talking about.Iran has been under various sanctions for decades so had no real option but for asymmetric warfare, drones and missiles a bit like north Korea, although the latter not so much on drones but more on missiles etc. But Iran can only achieve so much on its own and would nee to make serious purchases to modernise it armed forces. But it seems they are currently happy play a three card game, drones, missiles and quads forces. Not the safest bet....."


    They did not manufacture the F5 clone in any numbers , despite claiming that they could ! And JCPOA limitations  regime ended ( since JCPOA not adhered to by USA , becomes null and void ) Iran stuck to the deal , and was legally able thereafter to  buy planes , say from Russia or China , without permission from UNSC , as wrongly stated by Russia . But they  ( Russia or China ) did not sign contract either for sales .Iran did not push hard for them , only preliminary discussions by MOD .They have some money still to build ships and AD and Drones . Therefore their defence policy is somewhat by choice ,  is not based on conventional air power . Or conventional defence . Recently during the Nuclear " negotiations"  , they stated that , they have four satellites ready to be launched !

    Yes I know that they never made homegrown F-5 in great numbers hence in my other comments I said it was a failure and a waste of money, because why invest all that time effort and money into producing a handful. Had they not have had sanctions they could have exported it, and maybe have more cash to build more. It's no different to India building a outdated Tejas decades and decades wasted billions of dollars wasted for what a poor version of mig-21.

    Anyway Iran needs to make some hard choices soon or have it airforce become a museum
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Thu Dec 09, 2021 1:36 am

    The core of the remaking F-5s probably resulted from the attempts to keep their current American aircraft useable... they had to make engine parts and spare parts to keep them operating... with a simple aircraft like the F-5 which is the US equivalent of the MiG-21, it would make sense to put them in to production... why?

    Because cheap light planes can be made in numbers that make them useful.

    More critically the F-5 is based on the T-38 Lead in Fighter Trainer, so in addition to making light fighters they could also make extra aircraft as training aircraft for themselves and perhaps for export... who does not want a cheap simple jet fighter trainer that could also be used as a light fighter?

    The problem is that they haven't.

    They could buy MiG-29Ms relatively cheaply, but they seem to have not been happy with MiG...

    I would think licence production of Su-30s to replace F-14s and F-4s would lead to expertise and skilled jobs in Iran, and cooperation on improvements would be fairly extensive... if they could pay for it all in oil it would be best... but then maybe waiting for Checkmate might be even better.

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    Post  Mig-31BM2 Super Irbis-E Thu Dec 09, 2021 6:12 am

    A contribution in a German aircraft forum that could bring some light into the Iranian Air Force.
    german Forum wrote:A circumstance which speaks with the most against any new procurement and fundamental modernization, is based on Iran itself or concrete in the rivalry between regular armed forces and the revolutionary Gard and because it does not look really good for the IRAIF and other regular sub-force forces in the medium term. This tenor has only been strengthened since the elections in the spring. Iran is actually controlled essentially by certain religious boxes or much more funds that divide the country more or less and enhance political influence. Wherever possible, IRGC-controlled funds attempt to influence politics and society, which is not least (also justified by the international climate) - with the increasing paramilitarization of political circles since the last choice and weakening the moderate forces since the bursting of atomic May 2018 was promoted again. The great rivalry between regular armed forces and the IRGC brigades and the increasingly growing influence of the IRGC on political leadership bodies, which also overlook the military, ensures that the IRAIF is increasingly laced the air. If it goes to the IRGC, one can not trust the regular armed forces and in particular the Luftwaffe about the way and actually in the eyes of the IRGC leadership staff should be the only armed forces of Iran. This is how it works consistently and from the IRAIF urgently needed budgets is consistently covered and redirected for IRGC purposes. The IRAIIF must fight for every cent and at least enforce it that it can manage its own portfolio as part of the assigned budgets as part of the allocated budgets and so you put everything that is as capable as possible. The IRAIF has the hand on some essential custody and industrial hubs such as the AIC or the Baba'ee Corp. And can extend the influence of the IRGC as far as possible until now. These hubs carry with the largest share when we talk about modernization and overhaul of the existing aviation park. The IRAIF, at least, manages it to maximize these potentials as far as possible. Programs like Toufan, Fakour M-90, Baba'ee on or Dowran have only been still possible for that. If you do not get any significant new procurements, you can use the bit of influence still to secure budgets for the most extensive modernization and repair programs for the existing air park - is quasi the price for the task of new procurement.

    In the medium term, It is very important to some forces in Iran to weaken the regular armed forces as much as possible. New procurement projects of the IRAIF are wherever it goes torpedo. The IRGC has only limited personnel resources that are really enabled to use aircraft tactical - it feeds mainly through young ideological staff. Above all, the IRGC has its hands on the rocket forces and it is also the IRGC, which promotes the drone program so massively. Much of the Iranian drone park is under the control of the IRGC. The leadership of Iran has successfully conveyed that there is a significant part of the future of Iranian air defense and prioritize according to funds. That's why I also believe in the SU-30 for Iran (and to be honest too everything else new), if I really see them there. In my eyes, the window was, which opened in 2015/16 at the latest at the beginning of 2019 permanently.

    That could explain why there are no new aircraft. It only remained the way of hold and upgrading.
    d_taddei2
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    Post  d_taddei2 Thu Dec 09, 2021 7:52 am

    I think the majority on here have talked and suggested the Su-30 as a suitable aircraft and with production of the aircraft within Iran. This would most likely replace the F-14, F-4 and F-1. While the Su-24 and Su-25 could be upgraded. Mig-29 could either be replaced with mig-35/29m or Su-30 as they would be producing it. Their J-7 could be upgraded by China if still in good condition, or replaced by J-17 to appease the Chinese or replaced by Su-30. The F-5 replacement could either be with their homegrown kowsar, or with Yak-130 to co-inside with the use of Su-30 training, and still have the ability to be used as light strike if really needed. Or possibly the Chinese L-15.

    But I think everyone agrees the a new aircraft a unified platform across the airforce with production in Iran similar to India, would be cost effective and sustainable for Iran and giving the airforce a much needed boost. And would certainly make Israel and USA something to consider/can't ignore before any hostilities
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    Post  Mig-31BM2 Super Irbis-E Sat Dec 25, 2021 3:34 pm

    https://twitter.com/imamedia_org/status/1474632276713611270

    Which upgrade state have their SU22?
    d_taddei2
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    Post  d_taddei2 Sun Dec 26, 2021 1:49 pm

    Mig-31BM2 Super Irbis-E wrote:https://twitter.com/imamedia_org/status/1474632276713611270

    Which upgrade state have their SU22?

    10 have been upgraded.
    ability to carry smart bombs, fire precision-guided munitions, transfer data from UAVs, and in the near future the system necessary to utilize air-launched cruise missiles with a range of 1500 km

    https://en.mehrnews.com/news/136065/IRGC-overhauls-upgrades-10-Sukhoi-SU-22-fighter-jets

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    Post  nomadski Tue Dec 28, 2021 9:06 pm



    https://en.mehrnews.com/news/182293/Russia-to-sell-dozens-of-Su-35-to-Iran-report


    Maybe a little early to comment . But is this news with any credibility ? Plus , in what role do you think Iran will use these ? Or is best using them . Since this has an effect on numbers to be purchased and spare parts situation ?

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    Post  d_taddei2 Wed Dec 29, 2021 9:53 am

    nomadski wrote:

    https://en.mehrnews.com/news/182293/Russia-to-sell-dozens-of-Su-35-to-Iran-report


    Maybe a little early to comment . But is this news with any credibility ? Plus , in what role do you think Iran will use these ? Or is best using them . Since this has an effect on numbers to be purchased and spare parts situation ?


    Saw this on a different news article source. I would say like in the past it's just all bluff and bluster. Like the Su-30 so called procurement.

    We have talked before that Iran would most likely be better buying a couple of squadrons of Su-30 followed by production of Su-30 in Iran to replace F-4 and mirage at least. Of course it would be good to add to that two squadrons of Su-35 (replace F-14) and Su-34. MIG-35 or 29m to replace F-5, J-7.

    But with the recent Chinese influence and deals I wouldn't be surprised if they buy Chinese aircraft and most likely J-17. Although I personally think J-17 wouldn't be enough for all Iran's threats, and maybe what would be better is Iran's J-7 to be upgraded by China and replacement of F-5 with J-17 this would keep China happy. While Iran replaces the rest of the airforce with Su-30, Su-35. Their Su-24 could be upgraded, and as mentioned a couple of squadrons of Su-34 added to airforce. Their MIG-29 be replaced by mig-35/29m. Su-25 also upgraded. And they might as well upgrade the remainder of their Su-22 as it homegrown upgrade anyway. They could still produce kowsar as advanced trainer. And it wouldn't hurt for Iran to buy mi-35 and Mi-28. And start local production of Ansat and Ansat 2RC (armed version). Although Iran has produced two types of Heli one similar to but not as good as Ansat 2RC. And their cobra copy Heli isn't as good as a Mi-28 or Mi-35. This alone would be a dramatic change for the air force and would certainly be better to what it has now.
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    Post  nomadski Wed Dec 29, 2021 10:51 am

    You mentioned possible threats , and this is the crucial point . I think realistically that regional threats , even now are minimal , considering Iran's ground and Rocket forces . I don't think any neighbours of Iran , by themselves , either have the inclination or the power to launch a conventional  attack . Except Pakistan or Israel , with Nuclear weapons . But lets ignore this fact for now .

    This leaves in all likelihood , the Americans , who will use Air power to attack . So the threat that Iran has to consider , is best use of it's Air force against yank attack . To my mind , Iran has or can manufacture Aircraft for the purpose of ground attack or in anti- shipping role . The only gap , is therefore in Air to Air , and interception role .

    Iran can never match the Americans in a symmetric air  battle . So in the Air to Air battle , any damage caused , is of a psychological value . I thought that, the loss of 50 frontline American F22 or F35 fighters , will deliver a useful psychological blow . Enough perhaps , in the initial stages of a hot war , to force a ceasefire and allow negotiations , before hostilities metastasize into existential war !

    I think this to be realistic scenario . So my question is ( given this scenario ) more specific . How many SU 30 does it take , to take down 50 F35 or F22 ? What are the costs ? Can Iran afford it ?

    Also , since most Air battles against the F35 are one way trips , then this resolves the need for extensive spare parts or licenced production ? As discussed earlier ?
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    Post  AlfaT8 Wed Dec 29, 2021 1:29 pm

    Pakistan is not much a threat to Iran, so long as India is around the only thing the Pakis could do, is screw around with supporting terrorist in the region.
    Israel is the real threat, but thanks to geography no matter how succesfull a possible air war would go for the israelis, the lack of boots on the ground, will mean true victory is implossible, so that only leaves the US.

    Now on the airwar front with the US.
    The issue here isnt so much the f-22 or f-35, althoug taking a solid number of them down would deliver quite the blow to the western psychi, the problem is the west is all too aware of this so dont expect too many 5gens at the front, more likely western legacy fighters will be the real challenge.

    Luckily there is a way to delivery not just a psychological blow, but also a severe tactical blow by simply targeting the numerous american basesand especially airfields across the region.

    This is why the west has been so whynni about Iran's missile programs, because even the US cant wage much of a war if their bases are being bombed by missiles.
    After all, the west is well aware of their lack luster air-defense systems, and their even more lacking missile defense capabilities.

    As for what aircrafts Iran should invest in, going with a high/low combo would probly be best.
    Su-30/35s and mig-29Ms similar config to the Egyptions, or jf-17, j-10, although a more pressing issue would be to upgrade already existing aircraft and get ToT for those upgrades.
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    Post  nomadski Wed Dec 29, 2021 2:40 pm

    @ Alfa T8

    ".....Now on the airwar front with the US.The issue here isnt so much the f-22 or f-35, althoug taking a solid number of them down would deliver quite the blow to the western psychi, the problem is the west is all too aware of this so dont expect too many 5gens at the front, more likely western legacy fighters will be the real challenge.Luckily there is a way to delivery not just a psychological blow, but also a severe tactical blow by simply targeting the numerous american basesand especially airfields across the region.This is why the west has been so whynni about Iran's missile programs, because even the US cant wage much of a war if their bases are being bombed by missiles.After all, the west is well aware of their lack luster air-defense systems, and their even more lacking missile defense capabilities.As for what aircrafts Iran should invest in, going with a high/low combo would probly be best.Su-30/35s and mig-29Ms similar config to the Egyptions, or jf-17, j-10, although a more pressing issue would be to upgrade already existing aircraft and get ToT for those upgrades...... "

    The West is very well aware that in any war , especially in the early stages , that the lead attackers will be the new aircraft like F35 , to disable AD and Radar . Recently the threats from them and Israel , have been with F35 . They are not going to throw away metal planes and pilots to Iran AD . I doubt that American air bases in the region will be all occupied , or aircraft carriers within easy reach , just prior to Air war . They will pull back , initially to just outside Iran missile range . Thereafter they will use new generation of ship based stealth bombers and drone air refuelling . Attacking from 3000 km distance ! The West has been shy in attacking , not because of Iran capability as such , but because they themselves do not have a high tolerance for casualties . Even a modest number of them , like Iraq ( 4000 ) , was enough to force withdrawal in the end .

    They attack the weak . They wait for a civil war , when enemy lost capability to fight back , even in minimal way , to even cause a few casualties , such that they can not withstand ! In case of civil unrest , the armed forces can not use the weapons effectively . They desert or are demoralised and will not fight back . Even if they have effective weapons .

    Iran in purchasing say SU-30 from Russia , then must justify this purchase , based on actual performance of Aircraft . Since no large scale air war existed , that tested say the SU-30 against F35 , then simulations should be arranged , either computer or actual , to see what numbers are needed . A suitable practical test , might be a mock battle between SU-30 and SU-57 stealth , with similar capability and RCS to say F35 . Then we can decide ! Perhaps tests also needed for new checkmate fighter as well for a better fighter against F35 ?

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    Post  d_taddei2 Wed Dec 29, 2021 4:01 pm

    Although Iran's current key strengths are missiles and Quds forces and to an extent drones, and I think a worthy mention of midget subs, are all good, but the better your forces are across the board is better. As we have seen in Syria having s good AD denies even technically advanced air forces such as Israel air space. And forcing them to fire from neighbouring countries. This in turn gives Syrian AD some time to react at least and makes it more costly for Israel having to to use more expensive muntions (cheap dumbs here). Iran's AD is a bit of a mixed bag and how good some if the systems are we really don't know for sure. But let's say it's AD is reasonable but has room for improvement. It's air force is limited, and against an insurgency it's good enough, but for air to air it does lack quite a bit. So improving this will help against any possible hostile aircraft bearing in mind the size of Iran as a country and it's AD network, it's air force will fill the gaps. And having capable aircraft wont make it easy for any hostile aircraft or drones. And most likely even advanced aircraft will still likely suffer some losses. And don't get me wrong they won't be on par with USA or Israeli air forces am not suggesting that, but rather evening out the playing field and giving Iran a better chance. And of course these aircraft as mentioned can easily deliver anti ship muntions far out at sea and supporting naval forces. And Israel quite often beats the old battle drum of aircraft strikes against key facilities in Iran. With better air force they not be so confident in beating that same old battle drum and at least Iran can feel a little more secure knowing that if they try that they can counter more efficiently.

    I think it's only a matter of time before Iran starts to purchase newer aircraft, it's done well to keep what it has going this long but even Iran knows it's air force is tired. The Su-22, Su-24, J-7, and F-4 is most probably the aircraft that's still got some life left in them. Homegrown upgrade on the Su-22 seem to have went well, and Russia could upgrade the Su-24 and China the J-7. The F-4 it's possible with the amount of upgrades the F-4 has received over the decades that Iran maybe able to come up with a homegrown upgrade even if only a squadron is done. To tie it over until replacement aircraft is procured.
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    Post  JohninMK Wed Dec 29, 2021 4:53 pm

    Most of the 'advanced' aircraft in the IrAF are two seaters, is it likely that if they are the first to be replaced they would be by Su-30 not Su-35?

    Also, as missiles of all types are becoming yet more important would not the supply of the best AAM perhaps be more critical than new airframes, as long of course that the existing airframes are compatible with the missiles?
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    Post  Isos Wed Dec 29, 2021 5:47 pm

    JohninMK wrote:Most of the 'advanced' aircraft in the IrAF are two seaters, is it likely that if they are the first to be replaced they would be by Su-30 not Su-35?

    Also, as missiles of all types are becoming yet more important would not the supply of the best AAM perhaps be more critical than new airframes, as long of course that the existing airframes are compatible with the missiles?

    The su-35 is more automated so one pilot is enough. F-14 avionics were more complicated so 2 guy was better, one flying on managing the radar.

    They sur like their 2 pilots but the su-35 is way more advanced than su-30 with better radar, engine and RCS. It's also 1 co-pilot less for training which is costly.

    They have only mig-29, pretty old airframes, on which they could use russian missiles. Too old for upgrading them.

    Their goal is to get 24 su-35 and if they find them good enough they will ask a licence for local production to increase numbers.
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    Post  nomadski Wed Dec 29, 2021 9:23 pm

    In Iran we have a saying or proverb :  If you are buying a melon ,  it is conditional to a tasting first !  I have seen this myself . Going to a market , and asking the fruit seller to cut open a melon and give it to you for a tasting . And if you don't like it , then you don't pay , even if melon is now cut open !  This is how it should be with any Aircraft purchases .


    ".....Their goal is to get 24 su-35 and if they find them good enough they will ask a licence for local production to increase numbers......." Disagree . First they must find them good enough . Then they must buy them . And I rather think , they should check out the new checkmate fighter as well for comparison and costs . And to be honest I think they need more . Probably about 50 to 75 aircraft .

    You see , I am not a pilot , but I feel  ( measure ) that an advanced fighter has at best  a 1: 1 kill ratio against a similar American plane . I also sense ( observe ) The general capabilities of these planes and I  intuitively ( thinking about possibilities ) , and after sleeping over the problem , come to this conclusion .

    Therefore at least 50 to 75 planes with  best 1:1 or worst 1: 2 kill ratio against F35 type planes . Purchased AFTER proof by mock dogfight and simulation by Iranian pilots . No immediate need for huge stockpile of ammo or spare parts or licenced production . I hope Ayatollah listening .....

    @ d_taddei2

    ".....As we have seen in Syria having s good AD denies even technically advanced air forces such as Israel air space. And forcing them to fire from neighbouring countries. This in turn gives Syrian AD some time to react at least and makes it more costly for Israel having to to use more expensive muntions ........."

    I would not call this a complete success . Since they are damaging Syria still and killing people and draining resources from Russia and denying economic growth for Syria . It is an unusual situation also , not like a normal war ( where say St.Petersburg is being hit ) where their aircraft would be a target , as well as their cities . They are using F16 for these attacks with complete immunity for their aircraft ! They were over Syria airport recently ! A war with Iran will not be like this . F15 will be over Iran and shot down . Their cities will be hit , however , I agree with you that either numbers should be such as to be significant and achieve a possible aim , or not at all and rely on AD only and possibly some other things ........
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    Post  d_taddei2 Wed Dec 29, 2021 10:11 pm

    @nomadski firstly I said a good AD forces Israeli air forces to fire out with Syria, and having to use expensive muntions. AD foremost is used to deny enemy air space for I g them to fire at greater distances which gives Syrian AD systems time to react. AD systems are magic game changers and aren't 100% successful. U might not think it's successful because some missiles still make it through and cause damage, but if for instance Syria are zero AD systems then u would see far more destruction and enemy aircraft flying all over Syria in challenged using cheap dumbs. So the AD systems are doing their job, and to be honest for old Soviet systems (majority) haven't done too bad. Also the biggest blow to Syrian economy is not bombs but sanctions. And on the F-16 issue as stated they are flying well outside range of Syrian AD systems especially after the Sa-5 incident. And not just using F-16, but F-15, F-15 strike eagles, F-35, and all with varying levels of upgrades, but the real cost is the munitions being used as stated not cheap dumb bombs.

    Iran having more advanced aircraft would open up the use of better missiles, which is a key area when it comes to air to air combat or deterrence. If the enemy knows what capabilities u have they generally try to stay out of range or certainly don't ignore the fact u have said capabilities and have to take them I to account when wanting to target the countries facilities etc.

    As for testing aircraft am sure the Iranian being based in Syria have seen their fair share of what Russian helicopters and aircraft are capable in combat environment. Checkmate and j-17 yes maybe they would need to see them in a proper combat environment if that's what Ur after. And I don't think production of an aircraft such as Su-30 is a bad idea. Would reduce costs, allow Iranian engineers to gain experience on more modern aircraft. And if worse case scenario that if Iran was shut off the rest of the world like before, they would at least have a good aircraft/platform to produce, upgrade, and built for years to come. Back on to checkmate, we don't know if, and when it will be ready, and if Iran was to start to procure aircraft it would take some years for the deal to hammered out, production, delivering etc, so it would be a couple of years at least before they got any aircraft. If they were to wait entirely on to see if checkmate is ready or not they would be waiting far longer. And Iran's air force is in need of replacement sooner rather than later. They could start procurement in certain areas first and by the time those aircraft have been replaced hopefully checkmate will be in full production and some can be purchased. Possibly as a replacement for its F-5 and J-7.

    I'd also add it would be great news for Iranian aviation industry if production of aircrafts such as Su-30 etc as it would better keeping their jobs and gaining experience rather than buying all aircraft from abroad. As stated earlier the aviation industry could be rather busy, building Su-30, Ansat/Ansat 2RC, as well as kowsar/saeqeh as a advanced trainer.

    Anyway let's see what unfolds, it could just be bluff and bluster again about Su-35
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    Post  nomadski Thu Dec 30, 2021 12:39 am

    Yes looked up the delivery date for new checkmate aircraft , and it is too late for current crisis . And agree problem is immediate , especially after present JCPOA fails . Setting up local production is good idea , for the future . But for now need familiar aircraft for Iranian crew to fly . Like Mig29 with good agility and EO for short range work . The problem of numbers can quickly be resolved by a test as follows ;  place aircraft of similar ability in a head on confrontation . For first group disable radar and long range radar guided weapons , allowing only WVR weapons . For second group allow radar and Radar guided weapons . See how many more planes , the second group takes out ( Using inert warhead AA missile ) . Before first group has chance to get close enough to use EO weapons of Cannons etc . Then we know the numbers too . All this can be done within a week or before the Americans get any ideas . Must be plenty Mig 29 available ?If Iranians can sense F35 with special radar , but not track it . And if they have powerful jammers to disable F35 Radar . Then this evens out the chances . They must try to get some airborne jammers and decoys too ++ . This also takes no time to prepare and they can manufacture  them . All SU-30 or SU-35 later , when pilot and money available and .........
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    Post  GarryB Thu Dec 30, 2021 12:37 pm

    The Su-35 is a very capable fighter, and the Su-30 can be upgraded with everything the Su-35 has to essentially make it a two seat Su-35 if that is what you want, but these are not cheap aircraft to buy or to operate.

    Checkmate would be ideal because it is designed to be cheap to buy and also cheap to operate so you can buy them in numbers and actually use them in numbers which makes them much better all round because aircraft in the air are the most use. Having to keep planes on the ground to save money is a problem because you will lack experienced pilots when you need them...

    I am biased but I think MiG-29SMTs would be a good start... you already have the aircraft and the upgrade improves performance and reduces operational costs too... and it has future options of the MiG-29M and MiG-35 which can be two seat or single seat and are fully interchangeable.

    It is not really a plane that the west seems to worry about so having them underestimate your forces would be good.

    I would say spend money or in this case oil and get AESA radar... either buy it from the Russians or perhaps set up a joint venture to create a suitable radar set to meet your needs... with a decent radar on board and modern avionics the MiG-29 can be as good as you want it to be including being able to carry a range of new AAMs including the 200km range RVV-BD, which would be good for dealing with inflight refuelling aircraft and AWACS aircraft trying to manage an air attack... including ship based AWACS aircraft...

    Iranian production of MiG-35s could be arranged... but with Checkmate being a seemingly better deal I would say order 200 MiG-29Ms and get your current MiGs upgraded to SMT standard... it will take 2-3 years to perhaps 5 years from signing the agreement before those MiGs start to arrive... by which time Checkmate might become interesting and worth talking about... the point is that the MiG-29M or SMT are your affordable numbers options for now and could replace the F-4 and F-5 and existing MiG-29s you currently use, with an order for 50 odd Su-30s with Su-35 type upgrades.

    The core of what you want is a good air force but also an air force that works together with your air defence force... not against it... and not in some stupid rivalry for influence. Defence of the country should be the focus and goal.

    Don't expect your fighters to detect F-35s at enormous ranges... expect your ground based radar and radar in Russia to help you there so your fighter pilots are not surprised, and work with the Russians on jammers and self defence avionics to achieve a level of modern fighter aircraft that can look after itself in the air as well as dish out missiles and bombs and rockets.

    And IADS is what you need and fighters that work with that IADS add vision and reach and striking power to that IADS and make it even more powerful than if it was totally ground based.

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