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    Iran Air Force (IRIAF) | News and Discussions

    nomadski
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    Post  nomadski Mon Jun 08, 2020 7:01 am

    I think this helicopter has turboshaft engines. Two of them. And made in Iran. I don't know what type engine it has. Anyone with info on this. As this very telling on state of Iranian fighter jet development.  I like to see marine version.  This article in English language. Eight seats indicate the possibility of two seater combat version, with at least 600 kg lift capacity for external weapon or missile.



    https://www.tasnimnews.com/en/news/2020/06/08/2281733/iran-to-mass-produce-homegrown-copter

    Undersea fuel pods can be dispersed by sub or ship, in advance of marine anti-ship chopper attack. The pods in GPS locations. Pop up and attach to body of chopper, without chopper landing on sea. Use winches. Extend range to many hundred or thousand kilometer.
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    Post  medo Thu Jun 25, 2020 5:48 pm



    https://www.almasdarnews.com/article/iranian-air-force-receives-3-new-fighter-jets-video/

    BEIRUT, LEBANON (6:20 P.M.) – On Thursday morning, the Iranian Air Force received three locally-made Kawthar combat aircraft, as they continue to boost their aerial combat capabilities.

    The Iranian Ministry of Defense released a video showing the three fighters flying during their handover ceremony, which was conducted in front of Defense Minister Amir Hatami and several other officials.

    IRIAF receive their first new build Kowsar fighter jets.
    medo
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    Post  medo Thu Jun 25, 2020 7:47 pm

    Iran Air Force (IRIAF) | News and Discussions - Page 9 10797110

    Iran Air Force (IRIAF) | News and Discussions - Page 9 Ebxfs610

    Iran Air Force (IRIAF) | News and Discussions - Page 9 Ebxftl10
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Fri Jun 26, 2020 5:51 am

    Always like the F-5... nice, cheap, simple little fighter plane... yet manages to do that with two engines...

    The F-20 replacement design has one engine but was not popular...
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Fri Jun 26, 2020 7:49 am

    GarryB wrote:Always like the F-5... nice, cheap, simple little fighter plane... yet manages to do that with two engines...

    The F-20 replacement design has one engine but was not popular...

    Is their trainer based on the same aircraft?

    Anyway this could possibly be also used as an advanced trainer before the pilots move into mig29/35 and/or su30
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    Post  GarryB Fri Jun 26, 2020 10:48 am

    I seem to remember the T38 looks very similar and I think they are related.

    The whole programme was based around a very small very light weight engine of decent power... to make a cheap light aircraft....
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    Post  medo Fri Jun 26, 2020 6:50 pm

    Iran Air Force (IRIAF) | News and Discussions - Page 9 Ebw0e210

    Iran Air Force (IRIAF) | News and Discussions - Page 9 61666310

    Kowsar, based on F-5, are combat fighter jets.


    Iran Air Force (IRIAF) | News and Discussions - Page 9 10673510

    This one is a trainer jet
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    Post  GarryB Sat Jun 27, 2020 8:59 am

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northrop_T-38_Talon

    The Northrop T38 talon light weight aircraft was accepted as a jet trainer in the US... the F-5 was developed from that aircraft and was sold to Iran who have now made their own version of both the fighter and the trainer.

    The T-38 entered US service in 1961 and the F-5 entered production about 1962...

    The F-20 looked really good to me but the larger more powerful single engine probably increased the costs making it not so cheap and simple... which were its main features.

    It was basically killed off as being similar to an old model F-16 but much cheaper and simpler to operate... it would hurt F-16 sales to poorer countries...
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    Post  nomadski Wed Jul 01, 2020 9:35 am

    Always makes me happy to see these kowser jets. As I said before, this aircraft can turn into effective dog fighter against enemy planes. Iran using existing tech and modifications as follows. Can reduce weight of plane to about 4 tons. With 300 km range and 4 AA missiles. By :

    ( 1 )  Removing the two ejection seats. And Radar. And two canons and ammo. And pilot helmets. And fuel at 30 %.

    ( 2 )  save 20% weight or more by using composites. Carry only four sidewinder or air to air Rockets with laser proximity fused. Instead of cannons or radar. Internally.

    The pilot ejecting in sealed cabin, away from plane. The Rocket arrangement in the nose, allows for low RCS and using existing ammo. Unguided Rockets ( fired using small radar and ballistic computer with laser proximity fuse) could prove better. Since IR countermeasures, makes most heatseakers ineffective. The thrust to weight ratio of this fighter should approach 1 : 1. Can engage in WVR dogfight.
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    Post  GarryB Thu Jul 02, 2020 12:08 am

    Even a power to weight ratio of 2 is not good enough for manouvering... the F-4 Phantom had excellent power levels and could power out of some situations but what you will find is that if the US or Saudi Arabia attacks Iran they will look at their enemy and decide how to take you on at least risk to themselves and teh first thing they will do when they see a lot of short range day fighters with no radar is to load up with AMRAAMs and launch missiles from 60km away... even if only 20% of them get kills they have the money to buy thousands and thousands of missiles... they don't care how much it costs...

    For a defender the important things will be the number of missiles you can carry and how fast and high you can fly...

    Keep the cannon... if your missiles are not working then you need a weapon to shoot down cruise missiles... and keep the radar because if you are operating blind they will simply pick you off after they jam your communications.

    I would look at a medium range missile like R-77-1 with a 110km range and a reasonable chance against enemy aircraft and any domestic missile too.

    For use against cruise missiles a fighter with Sidewinders is ideal... they are just stupid low flying targets that wont try to dodge your missiles or your cannon fire and the more your aircraft can shoot down the easier it will be for ground based platforms to deal with the rest.

    In terms of enemy aircraft I would try to use your fighters both light and medium together with your air defence forces... lure them into SAM traps...

    Thrust vectoring engines make power to weight ratio meaningless... when you are flying slow most planes can't pull high gs in turns simply because their control surfaces are not big enough and they are not moving fast enough... with TVC engines you can turn and manouver at any speed...

    The Germans and the Soviets experimented with air to air unguided rockets... the Soviets at the start of the war but they quickly realised against a small manouvering air target you carry vastly fewer rockets than you can carry cannon shells and you need to fire hundreds or thousands of each to assure a hit and a kill so they stopped using them against aircraft and started using them against things on the ground for which they were much better suited.

    The Germans used rockets against huge American and British bombers and they only used them in rocket planes that were moving so fast a volley of dozens of rockets at the target had a better chance of doing damage than a cannon... and that was only because of rate of fire issues.

    Their jets and prop engined aircraft used cannon...
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    Post  nomadski Fri Jul 03, 2020 8:03 pm

    Of course Iranian fighters are now capable of night time operations. But firing AMRAAMS at a low RCS Kowser, without a Radar, accompanied by decoy drones,  head on, will be no more useful than firing shorter range AA missiles against a Kowser with own  Radar. It will probably be less useful. Since missiles can not lock on Kowser Radar. And ground Radar can always notify Kowser decoy escorts to deploy decoy Radar. And IR decoys. This can be done automatic. The pilot also told on Radio to take appropriate action. A Radio link to ground Radar, weights much less than Radar. A stealth plane should not have own Radar. Defeats the objective. Also ground Radar is much more powerful. With greater range.

    In a dogfight  situation, the most important factors are thrust to weight and wing loading. For maximum performance. As well as how many missiles are carried. That is why thrust to weight for a fighter Kowser is important. And hence reduction of weight. If all weight loss that I mentioned, is done for Kowser. Then it can climb as fast as F16. With new wing design, it can turn just as tight. It can be a contender. I am not sure about performance of J85 at very high altitude. Comparison with other Turbofan . But if a little short on altitude. Then Kowser can rely on SAM, to force enemy jet down. Or carry longer range AA missiles.

    The reason I mentioned, removing cannons, in the stealth Kowser, is not so much that I think cannons are useless in dogfighter . Quite the reverse. But on balance, I think it much better to place the AA missiles, in the long nose of Kowser. Instead of external hard points. This will mean using existing ammo. And keeping plane very low RCS. If enemy knows that Kowser has no Radar, then there is very little left to jam. Radio communication with ground control is helpful. But not necessary. Since pilots operate at very short range, and ultimately spot enemy visually. They could as well operate in Radio silence!

    Yes TVC is great, if you have it. Otherwise you do without. Here then you rely on power and weight and good wings. And numerical superiority. Two or four Kowser against one F18. With thrust vectoring ! We use tactics. Surround them. So no acrobatics will release them from prison.

    You mention R77. I suspect this to be medium range AA missile. But Iran has SAM that can reach altitude fast, level off and chase enemy plane. Using better longer range Radar. But what Iran does not have is short range dogfighter. Rely on pilot. Unjammable. Also the Rockets, I mentioned are nothing like old WW2 types. They are shot using small Radar and computer. And they have clever fuses. And much more difficult to jam. Compared to IR. But still IR guided can be used. If effective. This tactics is short range. To close the gap. When Iranian Radars jammed. Sam sites destroyed. F35 over Tehran.....

    The SAM trap is important. Placing them so that if enemy plane climbs and dives or turns to avoid. Then it will be caught by second or third Sam fired from opposite direction. Also passive seeker will keep safe from HARM. As well as decoy flare on ground to fool missile Warner in enemy plane.

    I am talking about Iranian fighter. But of course Russian planes will be welcome too. Iranians prefer version without TVC. Perhaps simpler or cheaper.


    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thrust-to-weight_ratio

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    Post  GarryB Sat Jul 04, 2020 8:47 am

    But firing AMRAAMS at a low RCS Kowser, without a Radar, accompanied by decoy drones, head on, will be no more useful than firing shorter range AA missiles against a Kowser with own Radar. It will probably be less useful.

    It is a physically small aircraft and in American Top Gun training the students in F-16 and F-15 and F-14 and F-18 fighters have said it is optically small and difficult to keep track of in a dogfight... but American or Saudi fighter pilots will have no problems sitting 60km away launching AMRAAM after AMRAAM... even if 80% of them miss that means 20 get destroyed for every 100 missiles they launched.

    A couple of years ago they launched 103 cruise missiles to try to hit two buildings and two airfields in Syria that probably each cost rather more than an AMRAAM missile.

    You will run out of small light planes before they run out of missiles... and if you try to make them super cheap you will just make them sitting ducks and even easier to shoot down.

    If you want a cannon fodder plane then pick a simple cheap UAV and mount some long range missiles on it... something like R-77-1 that has a reasonable chance of a kill... that way when they get 20% kills and you get 20% kills yours are super cheap unmanned aircraft while theirs are potential crew lost over enemy territory that you can hunt down... if they send helicopters or tilt rotor aircraft to recover crew then your 20% probably becomes 80% against such targets...

    Since missiles can not lock on Kowser Radar.

    The only air to air missiles that can lock on to enemy radar are Soviet/Russian. The R-27R and R-27ER are designed to attack active radar sources... intended to shoot down F-15 fighters while they were using Sparrow missiles. Sparrow missiles as you might remember, are SARH missiles meaning to launch them the F-15 has to be tracking a target and then to launch the Sparrow at that target it has to direct an illumination radar beam at the target aircraft to highlight it... it is a bit like a laser guided bomb but the laser needs to be shining on the target at launch right through to impact... the R-27R and R-27ER home in on the laser signal... actually the radar beam that the SARH Sparrow homes in on but it hits the target marker instead of the target.

    The R-27R is similar to the Sparrow in performance but faster, and the R-27ER is faster and longer ranged than the Sparrow.

    AFAIK no US or Saudi air to air missiles are guided towards the targets radar.

    And ground Radar can always notify Kowser decoy escorts to deploy decoy Radar. And IR decoys. This can be done automatic. The pilot also told on Radio to take appropriate action. A Radio link to ground Radar, weights much less than Radar. A stealth plane should not have own Radar. Defeats the objective. Also ground Radar is much more powerful. With greater range.

    And the first thing the Saudis or Americans do when they attack is jam all radio communications and start launching cruise missiles at Comms centres and HQs...

    In a dogfight situation, the most important factors are thrust to weight and wing loading. For maximum performance. As well as how many missiles are carried. That is why thrust to weight for a fighter Kowser is important. And hence reduction of weight. If all weight loss that I mentioned, is done for Kowser. Then it can climb as fast as F16. With new wing design, it can turn just as tight. It can be a contender. I am not sure about performance of J85 at very high altitude. Comparison with other Turbofan . But if a little short on altitude. Then Kowser can rely on SAM, to force enemy jet down. Or carry longer range AA missiles.

    Modern AAMs move much faster than jet fighters can or do... but they are still aircraft so the most efficient way to use them is from directly behind the target... they can pull up or down or turn left or right, speed up or slow down, but the missile is going to accelerate into the back of them faster than they can accelerate and it can turn up or down or left or fight faster than they can too... it is essentially like getting behind someone and shooting them in the back and it is most effective because you can see them and you can tell if they start turning left or right or climbing up or dropping down... your weapons all point forward so they are essentially pointing at them as are most of your best sensors... IRST, radar and eyeballs.

    From their perspective all your weapons point forward and your sensors too and he is behind you. Some countries have missiles that can be fired forward and attack a target behind them but it uses enormous amounts of energy to do so which seriously limits its speed and range.

    In the past power to weight ratio means acceleration and speed means height and height means speed.

    In other words if you are flying fast and high you can roar down and attack the target with guns and then use that extra speed and engine power to then climb back up to altitude again. If you have to fight an enemy aircraft above you it was a disadvantage.

    The point is that speed was life... run out of speed and you stall and when you stall your weapons and sensors point towards the ground and not at the target... you are a sitting duck to any aircraft that hasn't stalled.

    With TVC you can stall and keep your nose pointed at the target so you can launch missiles or fire your gun at him.

    A missile that will turn 180 degrees to hit a target is nice but turning your aircraft 180 degrees with TVC engines means no 180 degree turn on launch for the missile... instead of bleeding away most of its energy turning 180 degrees it accelerates directly at the target so it gets there much faster...

    A missile turning 180 degrees on launch is already pulling as many gs as it can pull... if you turn in to that turn to get you it will need to turn even harder and will most likely fail. That same missile pointed directly at you and launched directly at you is free to turn in any direction you turn and its closing speed will be much much much higher.

    The reason I mentioned, removing cannons, in the stealth Kowser, is not so much that I think cannons are useless in dogfighter . Quite the reverse. But on balance, I think it much better to place the AA missiles, in the long nose of Kowser. Instead of external hard points. This will mean using existing ammo. And keeping plane very low RCS. If enemy knows that Kowser has no Radar, then there is very little left to jam. Radio communication with ground control is helpful. But not necessary. Since pilots operate at very short range, and ultimately spot enemy visually. They could as well operate in Radio silence!

    Let me disagree.

    First of all... all respect to Iranian engineers, but the Korsar is not a stealth aircraft... not even close, so the penalty of having external ordinance increasing the RCS would be a price well worth paying because aircraft cannot cover airspace as quickly as missiles can.

    Radar is essential and communications are critical if you want your pilots to work together as a team.


    Yes TVC is great, if you have it. Otherwise you do without. Here then you rely on power and weight and good wings. And numerical superiority. Two or four Kowser against one F18. With thrust vectoring ! We use tactics. Surround them. So no acrobatics will release them from prison.

    If you don't have it... buy it. Klimov have it... buy it from them to put on all your planes.

    Numerical superiority means nothing if they don't act stupid.... and most of the time they don't act stupid.

    50 Kowsers against one F18... the F18 detects the 50 targets at long range and at about 80km launches 8 AMRAAMs against the closest 8 targets... they either hit or don't hit but he doesn't care... he has already turned around heading for home for more fuel and more missiles... he might already be an ace by the time he lands... the AWACS will determine if his missiles got hits, but he is waiting for more missiles to be loaded and fuel to be put on board and probably asking for 10 AMRAAMs for this flight... he gets to the same place he was before and there are 46 targets and he picks 10 and launches 10 AMRAAMs and turns and heads home.... he can do this all week and so can all the pilots he is operating with.

    You mention R77. I suspect this to be medium range AA missile. But Iran has SAM that can reach altitude fast, level off and chase enemy plane.

    Missiles don't chase planes.... they are like bullets.... they either hit or miss. They do have proximity fuses so a close miss will set off the warhead so you might just get damage. The point is that if the missile misses and is not close enough to set off the warhead the missile never turns around and has another go... that is Hollywood bullshit.

    A missile has tiny control surfaces... it effectively has stabilisers... which keep it pointing nose forward, and control surfaces that can make it turn towards a target to get closer than it would otherwise get. To turn 180 degrees it would shed all its speed and drop like a rock... a plane has a wing to hold it up... the stabilisers and control surfaces on a missile don't generate any lift they just keep it pointed forward and allow it to turn a bit to compensate for the tiny distance the target could have moved in the time it is taking the missile to get there.

    In some circumstances a plane can evade a missile, for instance the way the SA-6 was launched if you detected it early enough you could dive down so as it was climbing up to intercept you it would have to turn the other way and it just couldn't turn that hard to reach you so you survived the SA-6... the problem for the Israeli pilots was that that dive took you down into SA-7 and ZSU-23-4 territory and that was dangerous too.

    The thing is that if you have not tracked the missile properly your manouvering might just make things worse... if an AMRAAM is coming for you but you turned left and so it is going to start looking for you away off to your right... if you then turn the correct way it might not be able to turn hard enough and fast enough to get you... if you turn the wrong way you might end up moving directly into its central view and it is going to get you.

    Using better longer range Radar. But what Iran does not have is short range dogfighter. Rely on pilot. Unjammable. Also the Rockets, I mentioned are nothing like old WW2 types. They are shot using small Radar and computer. And they have clever fuses. And much more difficult to jam. Compared to IR. But still IR guided can be used. If effective. This tactics is short range. To close the gap. When Iranian Radars jammed. Sam sites destroyed. F35 over Tehran.....

    You are better off letting the missiles do the killing and carrying as many as you can carry and using them as much as you can.

    I am talking about Iranian fighter. But of course Russian planes will be welcome too. Iranians prefer version without TVC. Perhaps simpler or cheaper.

    Communication and command and control are critical.... if your planes don't communicate you will find a lot of wasted time is spent because they are not seeing targets... and why bother with rockets that are guided... isn't that just what AAMs are?

    There is no free ride... if you could get away with spending next to nothing but also beating a military super power I would think it would already have been done.

    Even if you do beat them they will exact a nasty price... they have called for the people of Iran to rise up like they cared about the people of Iran... but they also block your access to medical supplies and food... they really could care less... but don't take that personally... they couldn't even care about their own people...

    What you need to do is shoot down aircraft. They will still attack, but killing pilots and shooting down expensive planes or sinking ships or subs is what you need to do to make some think why are we doing this... what is our goal... and when they realise it is all about making a few rich americans even richer they might reevaluate the purpose of their foreign policy. A tiny chance but better than nothing.

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    Post  nomadski Tue Jul 07, 2020 7:02 am

    @ GarryB

    "...... but American or Saudi fighter pilots will have no problems sitting 60km away launching AMRAAM after AMRAAM... even if 80% of them miss that means 20 get destroyed for every 100 missiles they launched......."


    Yes you are right. They do have numerical superiority. But against the Saudi or Yanks planes , this" symmetric " response, will largely prove to be psychological measure. Or stop gap measure. A good chance that they will sue for a ceasefire, after fifty of their planes lost in combat to Iranian planes. Also they need to come close. If Kowser is very low RCS  and accompanied by decoy, then AMRAAMS not useful. They will exhaust their stores. Then Kowser will move closer for a kill. So these AMRAAMS are not magic bullet.


    "..... You will run out of small light planes before they run out of missiles... and if you try to make them super cheap you will just make them sitting ducks and even easier to shoot down....."

    True. That is why, Iran needs ICBM and Nukes. But it can not start a hot war with these. Maybe a few weeks into war, if facing destruction, then bring out the big guns. But I never said planes should be super cheap. Just cheap enough. There are mathematical formulae for calculations of cost versus benefit.

    "...... The only air to air missiles that can lock on to enemy radar are Soviet/Russian. The R-27R and....."

    I remember the Yanks deny they continued with Commanche Helicopter programme. But they used a version in Pakistan that crashed and gave the game away. Also they said that supposedly discontinued  very long range air launched stealth cruise missile, by arms treaty. But I never believe them. Better be cautious. They sure can make these missiles.


    "...... And the first thing the Saudis or Americans do when they attack is jam all radio communications and start launching cruise missiles at Comms centres and HQs......."


    That is why Kowser, will use radio silence and passive detection. No need to worry too much. An intrusive jet can not possibly remain hidden. It must at least attack something. Make noise. Kowser will then locate it visually. A good pilot can detect another jet at 20 km distance with naked eyes.


    "...... With TVC you can stall and keep your nose pointed at the target so you can launch missiles or fire your gun at him....."


    A pigeon uses stall tactic to avoid a Merlin.  It is much better and powerful flyer. It works sometimes. But if there are two Merlin. One behind the other. Stall does not work...

    "..... , but the Korsar is not a stealth aircraft..... "

    Agree. That is why future model should be. Iran can now manufacture all composites. Simply replace all components with analog composite. They made another composite plane. The 313.

    ".... 50 Kowsers against one F18..... "

    No, two Kowser against one F35. In red flag, it was discovered  that with F5, a two to one superiority against F15, won the dogfight. F35 far worse flyer than F15.

    "...... the AWACS will determine if his missiles got hits,..... "

    They will not be able to bring AWACS or fuel Tankers closer than 400 km to shore. Making them ineffective. Iran already modifying SRBM, with 400 km range to use as SAM against large flyers.

    "... There is no free ride... if you could get away with spending next to nothing but also beating a military super power I would think it would already have been done...."

    People are fashion victims. So are pilots. Since they are people too. I may be crazy. But not fashion victim.  LOL.

    Edit : Of course having cannons for dogfighter is an advantage. But existing cannons in kowser, will not allow installation of IR guided missiles. Nor smart Rockets. So on balance better remove cannon. Use IR guided missiles. Or if not effective, design smart Rockets. These are fired, by pilot visually tracking enemy jet, by helmet mounted sight. A LIDAR  can be slaved to this helmet mounted sight. This gives range and speed. And we have direction from helmet mounted sight. A computer then projects a dot on the HUD. Pilot aims boresight of plane to coincide. Then fires. Laser proximity fuse in missile, takes care of enemy jet. Bigger diameter of Rocket, should allow installation of larger fuse, compared with cannon round of 20 mm dia. Should happen fast. Replaces cannons.

    Edit : looks like they are on track. I wonder where heavy jet engine is coming from?

    https://www.tasnimnews.com/en/news/2020/07/22/2312404/iran-begins-development-of-heavy-fighter-jet

    Edit 2 : Iran will domestically manufacture heavy jet engine. What Pakistan or India or China failed to do at first.

    https://en.mehrnews.com/news/161341/Iran-Air-Force-developing-heavy-fighter-jets-deputy-chief

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    Post  George1 Fri Nov 20, 2020 11:29 pm

    The use of the new Yasir guided gliding bombs by Iranian Su-22 fighter-bombers

    Iran Air Force (IRIAF) | News and Discussions - Page 9 Su-2210

    An interesting video of the use of Yasir guided gliding bombs (JDAM-ER) with a range of over 50 km by the modernized Su-22 fighter-bombers of the Iranian Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps Aerospace Forces during the Great Prophet 14 exercise, which took place at the end of July 2020 in the Strait of Hormuz. Iran's new Yasir gliding bombs are aimed at the target using the installed inertial and satellite navigation systems.



    https://dambiev.livejournal.com/2126146.html

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    Sujoy
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    Post  Sujoy Sun Nov 29, 2020 2:04 pm


    Iranian F-14 armed with Russian R-27 AAM's

    Cyberspec posted this on Twitter. I personally did not realize this is possible.


    https://twitter.com/Cyberspec1/status/1331529627446042626
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    Post  GarryB Mon Nov 30, 2020 3:19 am

    The Iranians kicked the Americans out of Iran in the late 1970s and have not been able to openly buy US stuff since... it just makes sense to convert existing systems you use to ammo you can buy on the open market.

    I would think a F-14 with R-73 and R-77 and R-27ER and ET missiles would be quite potent...

    But ultimately I think in the longer term Iran should negotiate a local production contract to make Su-30s or MiG29Ms.
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    Post  Tsavo Lion Sun Dec 13, 2020 1:37 am

    https://nationalinterest.org/blog/reboot/what-can-iran%E2%80%99s-f-14-tomcats-do-against-mach-10-ufo-174301
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    Post  nomadski Fri Feb 19, 2021 7:45 pm

    https://www.tasnimnews.com/en/news/2021/02/19/2456060/iran-to-launch-production-of-100-seater-passenger-aircraft

    Looks like Iran is confident in building domestic turbofan engine for passenger plane, in a few years. This means that they are already ( at least) part successful in design and build of military Turbofan for main battle Jet, with thrust of at least 15000 lb. That is why they can modify this engine so quickly to use on passenger plane. Possibly redesign the fan section?  So we could see Iranian 5th gen fighter soon. They said this year, anniversary of revolution day. But may have changed mind.
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    Post  d_taddei2 Thu Nov 04, 2021 2:34 pm

    Does anyone know current figures on Iranian aircraft numbers, it always hard to find a correct source. Figures are quite wild depending on sources. I know it's hard considering it's secrecy that Iran always has. Quite keen to find out homegrown aircraft figures. What is clear is that Iran's air force is in need of updating and replacement in certain areas. I think the kowsar and the upgraded su-22 are good, for what they are. But they can't fufil every role. Iran could actually offer both of these upgrades for other countries using F-5 and Su-22.
    For su-22 Angola, Syria, and Vietnam could use the upgrade.
    If they produce kowsar they could sell on the open market, African countries, south American countries would be ideal customers. Of course the elephant in room is sanctions or fear of sanctions.
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    Post  d_taddei2 Tue Dec 07, 2021 8:24 pm

    I am actually surprised Iran didn't copy the F-4. The F-5 is cheaper to maintain and produce, but a homegrown F-4 would have been far more useful and not much more advanced than the F-5. Iran has already copied parts for the F-4 and used Soviet/Russian and Chinese parts and apparently weapons as well. So would be better to advance that into production. The F-4 is still a good multirole aircraft and far less complicated than the F-14. And with more modern upgrades would be useful to them more so than the F-5, although don't get me wrong they didn't do too bad with a copy of the F-5, it's just that they need something a little more capable and a multirole F-4 would have helped there airforce. They did manage to secretly obtain parts from Europe etc to maintain their current ones and there is plenty out there on scrap heap to be had.
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    Post  GarryB Wed Dec 08, 2021 6:01 am

    The F-4 is not anything like a simple aircraft and like most supersonic fighters requires precision and materials that smaller slower cheaper planes do not.

    If they could build F-4s then, they could build MiG-29s now, and while they are very capable in many areas the effort needed to make F-4s it would actually make more sense to make F-14s with F-4 level components...

    For all the effort it would take it would be vastly cheaper and easier and faster to just buy some MiGs or Sukhois or Mirages...

    It makes sense to make your own cheap light simple fighter as long as it remains simple cheap and light because they can be produced in numbers that make the development and reverse engineering worth it.

    Designing an Iranian F-4 and then making 200 would not be practical or sensible.

    They had to make spare parts to keep their aircraft running, but building a complete aircraft is a lot more work with more costs and more risks and unless you want to make thousands it isn't worth it most of the time.
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    Post  nomadski Wed Dec 08, 2021 6:27 am


    d_taddei2 wrote :


    "......Does anyone know current figures on Iranian aircraft numbers, it always hard to find a correct source. Figures are quite wild depending on sources. I know it's hard considering it's secrecy that Iran always has. Quite keen to find out homegrown aircraft figures. What is clear is that Iran's air force is in need of updating and replacement in certain areas. I think the kowsar and the upgraded su-22 are good, for what they are. But they can't fufil every role. Iran could actually offer both of these upgrades for other countries using F-5 and Su-22.
    For su-22 Angola, Syria, and Vietnam could use the upgrade.
    If they produce kowsar they could sell on the open market, African countries, south American countries would be ideal customers. Of course the elephant in room is sanctions or fear of sanctions......"

    I was thinking about this , late last night . Iran claims it made F5 copy ! But it made only 3 planes ?! Does not make sense . If they invested in tooling for making the F5 clone , then this is main cost of project . It costs far less thereafter to make , say 50 units . And they would be very useful too . Even in close ground support . Iran has still some functioning old planes for ground support , but I am sure addition of say 50 , planes would be very useful .

    But they did not do this . And also they did not buy any planes from Russia ! I thought the reason is money , but they are making many Drones and Ships at high cost . But no planes ?? This means their defence policy is not based on planes ! This shows asymmetrical thinking in defence . Now what systems are asymmetric ? If we think a bit , we understand where they are heading ........
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    Post  d_taddei2 Wed Dec 08, 2021 7:36 am

    nomadski wrote:
    d_taddei2 wrote :


    "......Does anyone know current figures on Iranian aircraft numbers, it always hard to find a correct source. Figures are quite wild depending on sources. I know it's hard considering it's secrecy that Iran always has. Quite keen to find out homegrown aircraft figures. What is clear is that Iran's air force is in need of updating and replacement in certain areas. I think the kowsar and the upgraded su-22 are good, for what they are. But they can't fufil every role. Iran could actually offer both of these upgrades for other countries using F-5 and Su-22.
    For su-22 Angola, Syria, and Vietnam could use the upgrade.
    If they produce kowsar they could sell on the open market, African countries, south American countries would be ideal customers. Of course the elephant in room is sanctions or fear of sanctions......"

    I was thinking about this , late last night . Iran claims it made F5 copy ! But it made only 3 planes ?! Does not make sense . If they invested in tooling for making the F5 clone , then this is main cost of project . It costs far less thereafter to make , say 50 units . And they would be very useful too . Even in close ground support . Iran has still some functioning old planes for ground support , but I am sure addition of say 50 , planes would be very useful .

    But they did not do this . And also they did not buy any planes from Russia ! I thought the reason is money , but  they are making many Drones and Ships at high cost . But no planes ?? This means their defence policy is not based on planes ! This shows asymmetrical thinking in defence . Now what systems are asymmetric ? If we think a bit , we understand where they are heading ........

    They did not do what?

    I didn't say they did buy aircraft from Russia, so not sure what Ur talking about.

    Iran has been under various sanctions for decades so had no real option but for asymmetric warfare, drones and missiles a bit like north Korea, although the latter not so much on drones but more on missiles etc.

    But Iran can only achieve so much on its own and would nee to make serious purchases to modernise it armed forces. But it seems they are currently happy play a three card game, drones, missiles and quads forces. Not the safest bet.
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    Post  d_taddei2 Wed Dec 08, 2021 7:41 am

    GarryB wrote:The F-4 is not anything like a simple aircraft and like most supersonic fighters requires precision and materials that smaller slower cheaper planes do not.

    If they could build F-4s then, they could build MiG-29s now, and while they are very capable in many areas the effort needed to make F-4s it would actually make more sense to make F-14s with F-4 level components...

    For all the effort it would take it would be vastly cheaper and easier and faster to just buy some MiGs or Sukhois or Mirages...

    It makes sense to make your own cheap light simple fighter as long as it remains simple cheap and light because they can be produced in numbers that make the development and reverse engineering worth it.

    Designing an Iranian F-4 and then making 200 would not be practical or sensible.

    They had to make spare parts to keep their aircraft running, but building a complete aircraft is a lot more work with more costs and more risks and unless you want to make thousands it isn't worth it most of the time.

    The same could be said for their homegrown F-5 unless they plan to make hundreds its not worth it. And let's face it on paper and a few aircraft the kowsar is ok, but they have failed to produce it any meaningful numbers so it's been a failure.

    I would suggest Iran now looks to purchase or get help from China or russian in production of an aircraft from there inventory.

    All of Iran's aircraft are growing old and no real upgrades available they will become obsolete. Only aircraft worth upgrading now is the Su-25 (only six in number) and Su-24.
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    Post  nomadski Wed Dec 08, 2021 8:04 am

    @ d_taddei2

    "....They did not do what?I didn't say they did buy aircraft from Russia, so not sure what Ur talking about.Iran has been under various sanctions for decades so had no real option but for asymmetric warfare, drones and missiles a bit like north Korea, although the latter not so much on drones but more on missiles etc. But Iran can only achieve so much on its own and would nee to make serious purchases to modernise it armed forces. But it seems they are currently happy play a three card game, drones, missiles and quads forces. Not the safest bet....."


    They did not manufacture the F5 clone in any numbers , despite claiming that they could ! And JCPOA limitations  regime ended ( since JCPOA not adhered to by USA , becomes null and void ) Iran stuck to the deal , and was legally able thereafter to  buy planes , say from Russia or China , without permission from UNSC , as wrongly stated by Russia . But they  ( Russia or China ) did not sign contract either for sales .Iran did not push hard for them , only preliminary discussions by MOD .They have some money still to build ships and AD and Drones . Therefore their defence policy is somewhat by choice ,  is not based on conventional air power . Or conventional defence . Recently during the Nuclear " negotiations"  , they stated that , they have four satellites ready to be launched !

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