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    Iran Air Force (IRIAF) | News and Discussions

    d_taddei2
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    Post  d_taddei2 Fri Dec 31, 2021 10:01 pm

    And article that has been floating around. It's rumours and that's all it is, I wouldn't believe it until Russia confirms it.

    Article does contradicts itself saying mig-29 pilots going to Russia to get trained on Su-35 despite saying Iran's mig-29 will be upgraded so why send Ur mig-29 pilots to get trained on su-35 if Ur keeping Ur mig-29? Also a few articles over years have stated Iran's mig-29 aren't in the greatest condition, it's hard to tell as it's a secretive state when it comes to aircraft. But also this is out of character for Egypt as over the last few years we have seen a swing to Russian arms and to sudden give up seems odd, USA threatened Egypt in the past and it continued anyway, and if Egypt were scared of sanctions they would have never bought 50 mig-29m, etc etc and if Egypt wants to play that game then Russia could easily play same game as USA if it really wanted to, causing issues for Russian/Soviet systems in service. Imagine Russia refusing to sell parts for Egypt's KA-52K ? Not only would 39+ helicopters be useless but also the ships that were designed specifically to carry them. (Mistrels). As well as 60+ mi-17 Helis, S-300 systems etc.

    A few statements from article

    "The Islamic Republic of Iran Air Force (IRIAF) has already selected 30 F-14A Tomcat, MiG-29 Fulcrum and F-4E Phantom II pilots to be sent to Russia for training to operate the Su-35. If the defense agreement is signed in January, training will begin almost immediately and by mid-2022 all 24 Su-35SEs would be delivered."

    "Part of the armament agreement also includes life extension, overhaul and upgrade work on 23 MiG-29 aircraft and 25 Su-24MK attack bombers. These works will be carried out in Iranian facilities."

    "The $10 billion cost would be paid in whole or in large part with barrels of crude oil, which, although Russia is self-sufficient in energy (and in fact a major exporter), is the only thing Iran can pay with."

    This deal also includes two batteries of S-400 and a military satellite.

    https://www.aviacionline.com/2021/12/russian-iranian-defense-agreement-for-su-35-and-more-to-be-signed-soon/

    nomadski likes this post

    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Sat Jan 01, 2022 8:49 am

    That might just mean they picked their top pilots flying F-14A and MiG-29 and F-4 as pilot candidates to fly the Su-35s.

    Hard to say if this is true or not but I do love the potential irony... US pressure prevents Egypt from buying new capable Russian state of the art fighters, leading to Russia selling those same new heavy fighters to Iran instead.

    With wing mounted L band AESA radar for detecting stealth aircraft the Su-35 would be ideal for hunting stealth aircraft like the F-35 and F-22 and even the B-2... if this is true this would be a serious own goal by the US administration and a huge boost to the Iranian Air Force...

    If it is true and this batch goes down well they might considering withdrawing their F-14s... maybe send a few to China and Russia to put in their military museums... that would be hilarious...

    With its radar and the ability to carry the RVV-BD air to air missile the Su-35 would be an excellent replacement for the F-14 in Iranian service, and a very serious threat to any country wanting to do harm to Iran... which is precisely what you want from your own air force.

    Again, if it is true I would still think that perhaps a further purchase of another batch of Su-35s later down the track to fully replace the F-14s and licence production of either MiG-29Ms or MiG-35s would be a good way to replace existing MiGs as well as F-4s and other aircraft like the Su-22.

    In terms of the Su-24 I think an upgrade to allow cheap dumb bombs to be used accurately from altitude would make them useful and affordable for quite some time against a range of targets near Iran... to attack Saudi Arabia I would think standoff weapons would be most useful and they could be carried by the Su-24 as easily as the Su-34.

    I think Iranian purchases of Su-35s will create great ructions in the west... Su-34s would likely create a pre-emptive self defence strike and lots of peacock BS from the west about the end of the world etc etc.

    Striking Israel would be better done with cruise and ballistic missiles IMHO, because it completely negates their airforces advantages...

    In difficult situations the Su-35 can perform strike missions too...

    I think the MiG-29M or MiG-35 with local assembly or local production makes more sense as they will be cheaper to operate and offer better density of protection and larger more expensive aircraft that are not faster.

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    nomadski
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    Iran Air Force (IRIAF) | News and Discussions - Page 11 Empty Re: Iran Air Force (IRIAF) | News and Discussions

    Post  nomadski Sat Jan 01, 2022 9:41 am

    Good , if they train pilots now . In readiness to receive new planes . The big problem I have , is with numbers not being enough . There is a claimed kill ratio of 4 non-stealth aircraft , for one F35 downed ! Assuming this to be true , then to down 50 F35 , Iran needs 100 to 200 aircraft . Say they loose 25 aircraft to AD of S400 . Then Iran needs 100 frontline aircraft , that can fly for a month with spare parts and ammo . Then after 20 or 30 missions , they are lost and shot down . This then will provide a useful defence , in initial stages of war , a point of inflection or pause in hostilities . A minimal realistic and useful deterrent against expansion of war . A place where both sides can step back from . Beyond this point , hostilities ossify and become inescapable and existential . And then Iran can not deter simply by increase in plane numbers . It can not match them in a numbers race .

    And why do I say 50 ? Well ask yourself the same question . Pick any object of value , and imagine increasing them by 10 , 20 ,.........50 ! Instinctively , and irrespective of type of object imagined , once we reach 50 , there is a qualitative change , it becomes significant , without becoming excessive .

    Therefore , either the numbers are adequate and minimally significant , or not . If numbers are low , then it is useless to go this way . The Americans or anyone , will easily loose ten or twenty pilots and planes , and carry on with war . But fifty is hard to swallow . As a proportion of total forces of 100 to 200 F35 , available locally !

    The other problem is jammers or Radar on planes . Even I know, there are missiles that home on Jam ! So any jammers must be on drone wingman ( wing mounted drone  , launched before closing in , mini drone jet ) that fly in front of plane . That absorb and drain AA missile and denude F35 . Before we close in , on it . ......100 to 200 aircraft or none .
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    Post  medo Sat Jan 01, 2022 1:59 pm

    Why would Iran pay weapons with crude oil? Russia have enough oil. This is most probably info fog for the west. Iran is full member of SCO now and is included in russo-chinese fifnancial systems. Iran sell oil to China and have enough Juans to pay for weapons through chinese financial system. India will also pay for their weapons with indian currency outside western financial systems. Iran and Russia are hiding their financial channels, so the West could not harm them.

    Su-35 are already payed by Egypt, who itself cancelled deliveries, so no money return. Russia could take oil for Su-35 and deliver it to LNR and DNR at low price to boost LNR and DNR economy.

    24 Su-35 together with 2 units of S-400 will work well for protection of strategical regions and will be integrated with existing S-300PMU2 and Tor-M1. Iran should also buy few squadrons of Su-30SME and the rest of their air force could be filled with domestic Kowsars, same as their air defense.

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    lancelot
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    Post  lancelot Sun Jan 02, 2022 2:12 am

    I think Iran should get a license to assemble either the Su-30SM2 or the Su-75 Checkmate. Or both.
    miketheterrible
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    Post  miketheterrible Sun Jan 02, 2022 4:36 am

    Egypt may be taking time to find ways around CAATSA before they take delivery of Su-35's. So they nay take them in near future so I doubt they will sell those to Iran.

    Iran's need case is two tier. They need something cheap and effective for shoot and scoot and interception and shorter ranges (possibly a single jet engine aircraft and they need that now, so best option is a J-10 or if China/Pakistan allows, JF-17 for localization building) and something heavier, able to carry a heavier payload, better ranges and air superiority mixed with air to ground and that is where Su-30SM comes in (SM2 variant with Irbis E).

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    crod
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    Post  crod Sun Jan 02, 2022 7:20 am

    This is all nothing but purchase talk porn…Russia won’t be supplying any such systems to Iran. It won’t disrupt its relationship with the jews.
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Sun Jan 02, 2022 9:22 am

    There is a claimed kill ratio of 4 non-stealth aircraft , for one F35 downed ! Assuming this to be true , then to down 50 F35 , Iran needs 100 to 200 aircraft .

    First of all not sure where that those ratios came from... perhaps America.... to try to justify the price? Su-35s at $80 million a plane and F-35s at $120 million a plane only makes sense if you pretend for every F-35 you lose the other side will lose four planes, so you lose a 120 million dollar plane and they lose 320 million dollars in planes.

    The only problem is that they likely pulled that ratio out of their asses and a defensive force with ground based SAMs in support all working together in a team might lead to F-35s being destroyed on their bases before even taking off from cruise missile and ballistic missile strikes on their airfields.

    The US would not continue an attack if they lost significant numbers of aircraft.... most attacks are coordinated and needs parts to do specific jobs.... if they send a flight of F-35s on a SEAD mission to find air defence forces and SAMs and take them down and they get jumped by Su-35s that shoot half or all of them down the whole strike mission would be cancelled...

    Why would Iran pay weapons with crude oil?

    Iran has plenty of oil and oil can be sold to almost any country... Russia has oil already, but it has money already too so suggesting it wont accept oil is like suggesting they wont accept money or other commodities... in trade.

    Iran sell oil to China and have enough Juans to pay for weapons through chinese financial system.

    What they could also do is sell the oil rights to locations where oil has been found but they are not extracting... the Russian companies could go in and find the oil and start extracting and be allowed to extract a reasonable amount to cover what ever is being paid for and then they either hand it back to Iran or continue to pump Iranian oil with Iran profiting from the oil being extracted or use it to pay for something else.... medicine or food or whatever they want at the time.

    Other cooperation on making medicines would be valuable where Russia can help Iran make medicines their citizens need that the US is refusing to sell... they could make equivalent medicines that are not owned by western companies so Iran could use it locally and sell to neighbouring countries who are also banned by the US like Syria or even Turkey...

    Su-35 are already payed by Egypt, who itself cancelled deliveries, so no money return. Russia could take oil for Su-35 and deliver it to LNR and DNR at low price to boost LNR and DNR economy.

    Giving Su-35s to a part of the Ukraine that someday might be part of the Ukraine does not make sense... they probably woudn't want to fund maintenance... easier to just have them over the border in Russia ready to go.

    If Egypt has already paid for the aircraft then perhaps they want to delay delivery for a bit... in which case the planes made for them can be sold to Iran and new machines made when they are ready.

    Of course it might be BS and Egypt is getting its Flankers and Iran is getting other ones and everyone is getting super flankers... Cool

    I think Iran should get a license to assemble either the Su-30SM2 or the Su-75 Checkmate. Or both.

    I agree they should get a licence but Flankers are too expensive to have as your only aircraft... it would be like having an air force of only F-14s... just not affordable to operate widely.

    I would say if this story is true then 24 Su-35s is a good start... perhaps further down the track a purchase of 24-48 Su-30s upgraded to Su-35 level for commonality of radar and engines and parts etc etc, or maybe the automation means they are happy with single seat and just buy more Su-35s.

    For licence production I would say the Checkmate looks interesting but it is too far away so licence production of MiG-29Ms or MiG-35s... make a couple of hundred to replace existing MiG-29s and Su-22s and F-5s and F-4s and F-14s

    Setting up licence production to just make 50 Su-30s does not make sense and producing 200 Su-30s would be too expensive to operate...

    But that is my opinion of course.

    This is all nothing but purchase talk porn…Russia won’t be supplying any such systems to Iran. It won’t disrupt its relationship with the jews.

    Putin is losing patience with the EU/US/UK... does that extend to Israel too... especially with the recent attacks in Syria using Russian planes as cover for attacks on civilian ports...

    Maybe this is a back the **** up offer... if Israel changes policy and the west changes policy then perhaps they might only sell Su-30s instead of Su-35s, and MiG-29Ms instead of MiG-35s... but then AUKUS might have pissed France off so much Iran might be getting Rafales gifted to them soon anyway.... Twisted Evil
    medo
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    Post  medo Sun Jan 02, 2022 10:44 am

    Giving Su-35s to a part of the Ukraine that someday might be part of the Ukraine does not make sense... they probably woudn't want to fund maintenance... easier to just have them over the border in Russia ready to go.

    I think it was a missunderstanding. I didn't write about delivering Su-35 to LDNR, but to deliver them oil from Iran.

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    nomadski
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    Post  nomadski Sun Jan 02, 2022 11:05 am

    @GarryB

    On the numbers , this is a question for all . Nobody knows for sure , since only actual combat conditions are a proof . And yes they " claim " such numbers . That is why to be fair , I said tests are needed . But Iranians or anyone can arrange for fairly accurate tests , without having access to actual combat aircraft . All that is needed are say two squadrons of identical jet planes and pilots . Facing each other in simulated attack . One group with Radar and Radar guided weapons , and the other without . Then a means of registering hits , without using live Ammo . Like modern paint ball or laser tag games , will provide answers . And since planes facing F35 , need not do anything too clever , like turn on Radar or do BVR , but need cannons and good IR , short range dog fighting capability . Then a plane with similar or better agility and  short range WVR capability and lower cost and familiar to fly ......Like MIG29 is best . How many MIG29 can we buy for 120 million USD ?


    https://theaviationist.com/2019/01/07/for-4-65-million-this-nice-low-time-mig-29-can-be-yours-if-you-hurry/


    24 Mig29 !!  And Iran air force can put their own missiles or Radar on it . And fly 24 Mig29 with 50 Radar decoy drone towards six F35 !

    Isos
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    Post  Isos Sun Jan 02, 2022 1:12 pm

    Hungary was selling around 20 mig-29 and 500 items like missiles and fuel tanks for some 20 million $. No one bought them. Russia could have to upgrade them and give them to Iran.

    But if Iran really wants some old mig-29 upgraded, there are hundreds of them parked in Russia that they can buy. They don't seem to be interested however.
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    Post  nomadski Sun Jan 02, 2022 2:27 pm

    I can only state my opinion , as an outsider non-pilot . I have thought about this problem a little bit . I think they should be interested . As long as the Migs have some flight time left in airframe . Thinking about it , even if the Radar and Radar guided systems on advanced non-stealth planes , matches the range and resolution and resistance to jamming of Radar ......of F35  , then F35 has advantage of very low RCS . This means they will probably have advantage with longer range AA missiles . Sorry , but that is my honest opinion . A 1:2 kill ratio  or more ! Unless the Radar advantage is proven to be negated by jamming . So say three SU-35 cost 240  million USD . Equal to 50 Mig29 . An F35 carries 6 to 8 AA missiles . Not 50 !

    The Ayatollah is not a pilot , but he makes the final decision .  But pilots advise him . And I understand why they might not like to die too quickly . A 50% to 30% chance of survival is better than a 10% ? chance of survival ! But if 8 out of fifty are downed , then chance of survival is 80% not 30%-50% .  And F35 has no chance , 0% or less against 50 Mig29 .


    https://web.archive.org/web/20160816132819/http://www.uk.leonardocompany.com/-/britecloudlaunch

    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Mon Jan 03, 2022 3:56 am

    I think it was a missunderstanding. I didn't write about delivering Su-35 to LDNR, but to deliver them oil from Iran.

    I must say I thought the suggestion was rather more militant that I would expect from you.

    Even then I would say Russia sells oil so selling Iranian oil along with their own converts it into money and I would think the LDNR might like other things they can use.

    I think the conflict there puts the LDNR in the perfect position to use drones both in defence and attack because they don't have a real air force but drones could provide a situational awareness and an attack capacity that an airforce would often provide a super power, but in this case without the cost of what super powers pay for those air forces.

    Even just cheap simple mass produced designs made of balsa wood with cheap simple small engines they can mass produce with weapons they already have to hand.

    I mean a relatively small drone that can hold an RPG rocket mounted pointing directly down held by a server arm in place... after the aircraft is airborne have another server arm rip the safety caps off all four RPG rockets loaded in the drone pointing downwards so any contact with the nose of the RPG will set it off... have a camera pointed downwards and when over an enemy armoured vehicle release all four rockets... instead of live tails with propellent stubs screw on the used propellent stubs of rockets and tie rags to them as drag to make the rockets stabilise point downwards... even the crappiest oldest model HEAT version will penetrate even a modern tank vertically... make sure all rockets fall and then turn the drone around and fly back to be reloaded... if it gets shot down it gets shot down... flying at 3-4km altitude many wont even know it is there.

    Rockets could be carried horizontally in the fuselage or under the wings with the rags tucked up and safety caps attached till release... removing safety caps after getting airborne means suicide use of the drone is a go too.

    All that is needed are say two squadrons of identical jet planes and pilots . Facing each other in simulated attack .

    What you want to do is include your fighter pilots with your air defence forces to all work together in the defence of Iranian airspace... having mock fight competitions between groups of pilots working on their own is good for individual skills, but it will take time to learn the strengths and weaknesses of each aircraft and those of the enemy to work out the tactics you want to use to put them at a disadvantage and make a victory more likely for you.

    It might be that BUK types SAMs are the best way of dealing with a strike group of F-35s so using your fighters and other vehicles and equipment might be all about luring an enemy force to fly over a BUK regiment which can be powered up but radio silent and then ambush and take them all down...

    The point is that as an attack force they will be looking at your defence forces and anything that sticks out they will try to eliminate... they will likely send drones in to test the waters and to do any damage they can... a flight of fighters intercepts those they might escalate with F-35s trying to take down the fighters... they were already there and were using their sensors to try to locate defences and radio communications of the defence working out gaps and weaknesses in the radar coverage, so when your fighters went up to get the drones their F-35s might try to get some fighters, which could be when mobile SAMs open their ambush... but obviously I am being very simplistic... there could be naval aircraft and AWACS and ground based radar etc etc that all need to be dealt with and of course shooting down drones might lead to a mass cruise missile strike or coordinated manned aircraft strike... all US bases in the region would need to be monitored as well as naval assets in the region too.

    Then a plane with similar or better agility and short range WVR capability and lower cost and familiar to fly ......Like MIG29 is best . How many MIG29 can we buy for 120 million USD ?

    You don't want to cheap out... a MiG-29SMT is the bare minimum and you want to buy Jamming pods too so they have some defence against AMRAAM and other threats...

    So say three SU-35 cost 240 million USD . Equal to 50 Mig29 . An F35 carries 6 to 8 AA missiles . Not 50 !

    But the Su-35 can probably do something about an AMRAAM attack, while a MiG-29 probably can't. A MiG-35 at 50-60 million an airframe would cost a lot to buy but operational costs will be lower than for a Flanker so you can afford to use them to defend your airspace.

    I think you need both, I think Su-35s would be an excellent replacement for the F-14s you currently operate, plus I think Iran should work together with Russia in developing a long range AAM... it sounds like Russia is working with India to produce such a weapon... perhaps there is room for Iranian investment and knowhow to be added to that equation?

    Current long range AAMs use radar because long range detection is via radar so it just makes sense, but new lock on after launch and long and short wave IR missiles that can passively scan without giving away their presence by broadcasting radar waves everywhere that can see a good distance ahead of themselves and identify their own targets would be very interesting.

    The wing mounted L band AESA radar on the Su-35 can detect stealth aircraft at extended ranges because the stealthy shape and materials don't effect radar in those frequencies, but firing a radar homing missile at such a contact would be wasteful when the homing missile uses radar waves the target is designed to be the most stealthy against... an IIR guided missile on the other hand can fly in the direction of the blip from the L band radar array and it can look for targets as it flys... when it comes across a target it can look at its IR signature and either attack it or continue onwards...

    Imagine being able to shoot down F-35s from 200km range?

    An RVV-BD with a IIR seeker and datalink... you could set the L band AESA array as both detection of the stealthy target and also the datalink system receiving a video image of what the outgoing missile sees...

    And the fun Iran will have gifting F-4s and F-14s to museums in Cuba and China and North Korea and Vietnam and Russia... because they wont need them... they could even give one to an American Museum like the Smithsonian... they might pay them a few million for a pair.
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    Post  nomadski Mon Jan 03, 2022 8:44 am

    "......You don't want to cheap out... a MiG-29SMT is the bare minimum and you want to buy Jamming pods too so they have some defence against AMRAAM and other threats..." Agree . But pods make no sense . Better have pods that separate and fly away from aircraft . And we need plenty of them , to exhaust AA missiles . Overcoming  the advantage in stealth by advantage in electronics .

    ".....A MiG-35 at 50-60 million an airframe would cost a lot to buy but operational costs will be lower than for a Flanker so you can afford to use them to defend your airspace....." If Iran gets plenty of Mig29 , then say 20% can be canibalised . Also cost of Labour is lower for maintenance and climate is dry , keeping planes rust free ! Also number of combat missions per plane is lower . If tactics work , then no need to have planes flying long term .

    "....Imagine being able to shoot down F-35s from 200km range?....." Yes great idea to use range as asymmetric tactic against stealth . I have no problem with purchases of More capable aircraft , if money was no object . And as you said , a mix of Mig29 and SU-30 will be a better idea . However IF money is a problem , then duplication of systems is not wise . Having two or more systems that do the same job . And defence of S300 or S400 , already engage at those ranges .

    So given the choice of either a good number of S300- S400 and say 200 updated Mig29 with 400 drone wingman versus same number or fewer of AD and 24 SU-35 then the first choice is best . However IF money no object then adequate AD plus 200 updated Mig29 and drone wingman and say 25 to 50 Su-30 . Should take care of 50 F35 ! Beyond this point , not worth increasing numbers . Then go Nuclear . A month's worth of Ammo and supplies .

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    Post  Mig-31BM2 Super Irbis-E Mon Jan 03, 2022 4:11 pm

    Please remember that NS1 and NS2 may only be used 50% of a provider according to a stupid EU law. This also affects oil pipelines. That's why Russia now buys gas and oil in Iran, and packs with in NS1 and NS2 and Druschba. ERGO 100% EU compliant capacity. Iran gets rubles, were, weapons, etc. Win Win.

    I stay, MiG-31BM with 24 units would be the best Iranian option. To do this, its own JF-17 block III manufacturing street (like Pakistan this has and where the components come from China and Russia) for cheap BVR interceptors, weapons carriers, etc. The JF-17 can virtually everything and can be done by MIG-31 and F-14 too be guided (Mini Awacs). Even if a loss of 1_4 would pass against F-35, this would still be 16 F-35 to 64 JF-17 acceptable.

    Always consider that Iran will not give the Luftwaffe much budget for new ones. The IRCG gets everything important and new ones. A MIG-31 is more surviving than a SU-35 and Iran is big enough to use them effectively. Especially since Iran gets Mini Awacs again. He also uses the F-14 yes as the MIG-31 is used in Russia.

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    Post  JohninMK Mon Jan 03, 2022 4:36 pm

    medo wrote:Why would Iran pay weapons with crude oil? Russia have enough oil.

    It makes economic sense. Russia takes delivery of what is now 'their' oil in the Gulf and immediately sells it on. Potentially saving major transport costs. Could even sell it to China.

    Its an excellent way of bypassing sanctions and almost a no-brainer for Iran.

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    Post  nomadski Mon Jan 03, 2022 7:05 pm

    @ mig31

    Compared to F35 , the flying Brick , like a Bumble Bee in late spring or a Pigeon in late autumn ! Then short range dog fighting capability with cannons and short range IR capability and lowest RCS is important . The following factors :

    ( 1 )  Smallest turn radious both horizontal and vertical . ( 2 ) Fastest climb rate ( 3 ) Fastest acceleration rate ( 4 ) highest altitude ( 5 ) lowest RCS . ( 6 ) lowest cost .

    The Mig29 , still is more agile and faster climber and lower cost with proven flight time of decades . Twin engine gives more power and redundancy in case of loosing one engine .Big wings , ability to carry more  ...........Nothing wrong with it as fighter , just smaller range . I think Iran should import all tooling and start local manufacture . Much more cheaply than all other planes , even JF17 . Iran has to put it's own Avionics and missiles on in the long term anyway . As well as lowering RCS , that it can do itself effectively . We get twin engined Checkmate , made in Iran .


    Specifications (MiG-29) Edit

    Drawing of MiG-29 (Russian Air Force)
    Data from Mikoyan,[263] airforce-technology.com,[264] deagel.com,[265] Business World[266] Engine specifications from Yefim Gordon's book[267]

    General characteristics of Mig29

    Crew: 1
    Length: 17.32 m (56 ft 10 in)
    Wingspan: 11.36 m (37 ft 3 in)
    Height: 4.73 m (15 ft 6 in)
    Wing area: 38 m2 (410 sq ft)
    Empty weight: 11,000 kg (24,251 lb)
    Gross weight: 14,900 kg (32,849 lb)
    Max takeoff weight: 18,000 kg (39,683 lb)
    Fuel capacity: 3,500 kg (7,716 lb) internal
    Powerplant: 2 × Klimov RD-33 afterburning turbofan engines, 49.42 kN (11,110 lbf) thrust each dry, 81.58 kN (18,340 lbf) with afterburner
    Performance

    Maximum speed: 2,400 km/h (1,500 mph, 1,300 kn) at high altitude
    Maximum speed: Mach 2.25
    Range: 1,430 km (890 mi, 770 nmi) with maximum internal fuel[268]
    Ferry range: 2,100 km (1,300 mi, 1,100 nmi) with 1x drop tank
    Service ceiling: 18,000 m (59,000 ft)
    g limits: +9
    Rate of climb: 330 m/s (65,000 ft/min) [269]
    Wing loading: 403 kg/m2 (83 lb/sq ft)
    Thrust/weight: 1.09


    Specifications (JF-17 Block 2)
    External image
    image icon The glass cockpit of a JF-17 simulator
    Data from Pakistan Aeronautical Complex marketing brochure[244] and official website[245]

    General characteristics

    Crew: 1 (single-seat JF-17A) or 2 (dual-seat JF-17B)
    Length: 14.93 m (49 ft 0 in)
    Wingspan: 9.44 m (31 ft 0 in)
    Height: 4.77 m (15 ft 8 in)
    Wing area: 24.43 m2 (263.0 sq ft)
    Empty weight: 6,586 kg (14,520 lb)
    Max takeoff weight: 12,384 kg (27,302 lb) [246]
    Fuel capacity: 2,330 kg (5,137 lb) internal fuel; 1 x 800 kg (1,764 lb) centre-line drop tank; 2 x 800 kg (1,764 lb) or 1,100 kg (2,425 lb) under-wing drop tanks
    Powerplant: 1 × Klimov RD-93 afterburning turbofan with DEEC, 49.4 kN (11,100 lbf) thrust [247] dry, 84.4 kN (19,000 lbf) with afterburner
    Performance

    Maximum speed: 1,910 km/h (1,190 mph, 1,030 kn)
    Maximum speed: Mach 1.6[248]
    Cruise speed: 1,359 km/h (844 mph, 734 kn)
    Stall speed: 150 km/h (93 mph, 81 kn)
    Range: 1,320 km (820 mi, 710 nmi)
    Combat range: 800 km (500 mi, 430 nmi)
    Ferry range: 2,500 km (1,600 mi, 1,300 nmi) with 3 external drop tanks
    Service ceiling: 16,920[249] m (55,510 ft)
    g limits: +8/-3 (limited by flight control system)
    Rate of climb: 300 m/s (59,000 ft/min)
    Thrust/weight: 0.95 with RD-93 (with 50% internal fuel and 2 x SRAAMs)[250]


    A single engined plane is obviously cheaper to manufacture , if it Provides advantages in performance , but if not then it may provide good enough performance for BVR work . But in my opinion , with modern AD , where long range AD missiles with huge Radars and range , do a similar job , then the focus should be on WVR work using fighters . And in this area , an increase of 30 m/s climb rate , in a chase lasting 30 seconds to one minute , puts one plane , 2 km ahead of closing in , a difference between being able to use cannons or fire short range missiles . Every meter counts . Every degree of turn .
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    Post  GarryB Tue Jan 04, 2022 6:17 am

    But pods make no sense . Better have pods that separate and fly away from aircraft . And we need plenty of them , to exhaust AA missiles . Overcoming  the advantage in stealth by advantage in electronics .

    Pods make clear sense... if you have 200 aircraft you don't need to upgrade 200 EW systems and keep them up to date... you can buy 50 pods and mount them on aircraft that would need them at the time.

    Cheaper and easier to upgrade 50 pods to state of the art technology and you can have optimised pods for different roles, which would be cheaper than upgrading and modifying aircraft and easier to deploy.

    By separating pods I suspect you mean disposable jammers and decoys... that is something different... that could be as simple as a couple of S-13 122mm calibre five shot rocket pods with disposable jammers and decoys/drones.

    Towed jammers can also be carried too but that is something else too...

    If tactics work , then no need to have planes flying long term .

    Obviously you don't want to fly your planes around all the time like community constables walking around making the public feel safe after a stabbing or other serious incident, but having enough planes to distribute them in useful numbers around your country would be useful and to be able to concentrate them in some areas in case of an attack is also rather useful too, the whole point of an IADS network is allowing your planes to be on the ground but ready for use when needed so if an enemy attacks the pilots are rested and ready to go and not having been flying around the place for the last 6 hours and are tired and in need of refuelling and rearming.

    The other part of the IADS is management to make sure you have enough of what you need where you need it to stop an attack as efficiently as possible so every incursion does not mean the entire force get airborne for instance.

    And as you said , a mix of Mig29 and SU-30 will be a better idea . However IF money is a problem , then duplication of systems is not wise . Having two or more systems that do the same job . And defence of S300 or S400 , already engage at those ranges .

    The world is moving away from Oil and it is not going to be valuable forever, so it makes sense for you to benefit from it as a resource while you can, but it is also important that you use it while it is valuable and get the best benefit out of it now... in 20 years time most of the west will be all electric cars... not because that is better but because their ideology and mantra demand it, so the demand for oil and oil based products will certainly change though I doubt demand will ever be eliminated completely.

    My point is that defending yourself and getting a decent but not ridiculous ability to defend yourself is important... but in a sense you would be handing over your oil to Russia and it becomes their problem to sell and get returns on it.... but for as long as the west has sanctions on you selling it yourself is going to be problematic anyway.

    Use the oil reserves to improve your situation... as I said... don't just buy weapons... enter into joint ventures with Chinese and Russian companies.... produce medicine and drugs... get production contracts for products that Iranians want in large numbers... not things that are out of date in six months like cell phones, but things that are needed like tractors... start making electric vehicles... technology that is beneficial like solar and wind power, electric motors... invest wisely for Irans future.

    Don't get too fixated with F-35s... having a ballistic missile response is worth 1,000 F-35s... the west does not tend to attack countries that can strike back.

    So given the choice of either a good number of S300- S400 and say 200 updated Mig29 with 400 drone wingman versus same number or fewer of AD and 24 SU-35 then the first choice is best .

    I would agree, but SAMs are only useful in large numbers so you need a licence agreement to make your own missiles and make them in eye watering numbers and I also like the fact that you are not talking about fighters/drones or SAMs, because it really works best with both.

    Perhaps the solution could be MiG upgrades for the next 5 years or so and numbers to replace the F-4 and other types you have in service... an upgraded MiG-29SMT should be able to replace an F-4 and an Su-22 in the medium fighter and light strike roles... and in 5-10 years time buy some Checkmates to operate with your MiGs...

    As I said I am biased because I don't hate MiG...

    However IF money no object then adequate AD plus 200 updated Mig29 and drone wingman and say 25 to 50 Su-30 . Should take care of 50 F35 ! Beyond this point , not worth increasing numbers . Then go Nuclear . A month's worth of Ammo and supplies .

    The Su-30s would be a good replacement for your F-14s, but I think your ballistic missiles are your trump card... load a few up with pamphlets and land some in populated areas... self destruct them at safe altitudes of course... the sway of propaganda in a message to the locals would be turned sour if the rocket lands on someones house and wipes out their family like a US drone strike...

    Please remember that NS1 and NS2 may only be used 50% of a provider according to a stupid EU law. This also affects oil pipelines. That's why Russia now buys gas and oil in Iran, and packs with in NS1 and NS2 and Druschba. ERGO 100% EU compliant capacity. Iran gets rubles, were, weapons, etc. Win Win

    Russia makes a lot of money selling oil and gas... no one will be able to tell what is Iranian oil and what is Russian oil... they can convert it into money very easily and the people buying really probably don't care too much. If you watched the news you would think the US and UK don't buy Russian oil and Russian gas but they actually do... they just don't like to talk about it. And they buy it because it is cheaper than from other sources.

    I stay, MiG-31BM with 24 units would be the best Iranian option.

    On paper I would agree, but there are none for sale AFAIK... Russia is using all the ones they have in storage and likely don't really want to share any time soon.

    It would be expensive to operate... it is a big heavy powerful aircraft and the model they got would not be as good as the model Russia uses, but certainly an excellent interceptor and that huge radar is excellent.

    But AFAIK not really an option for them.

    A single engined plane is obviously cheaper to manufacture ,

    The figures for the top of the range Chinese plane is about $60 million per aircraft... that is more than the Russians are paying for the MiG-35s, and the MiG-35s have two upgraded versions of the Chinese aircrafts engines...  (the Klimov RD-93 is an RD-33 with the gearbox shifted to a different position).

    Obviously the Russians wont sell to Iran at the same prices they buy themselves, but the MiG-29M should be $60 million or rather less on the export market and would be much more capable than this Chinese aircraft... it might end up $70 million if they want licence production but then they would have the same issues with the Chinese plane getting more expensive with licence production rights....
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    Post  nomadski Tue Jan 04, 2022 9:57 am

    "......By separating pods I suspect you mean disposable jammers and decoys... that is something different... that could be as simple as a couple of S-13 122mm calibre five shot rocket pods with disposable jammers and decoys/drones.Towed jammers can also be carried too but that is something else too..." Yes , that is what I mean . I am not too happy about non-stealthy planes confronting stealthy planes , with Radar switched on AND  ECM pods advertising location too .


    "...Don't get too fixated with F-35s... having a ballistic missile response is worth 1,000 F-35s... the west does not tend to attack countries that can strike back...." Yes , I was thinking about this too . The F35 attack will form part of their tactics . After they use cruise missile from B2 or B52 or Sub or Ship at sea . These have 3700 km range and are fitted with conventional warhead . Against B2 , very difficult to intercept by Air at 3700 km from border for Iran . Maybe Russia can do it , with long range plane and very long range AA missile . But intercepting cruise closer in , like in Syria , seems to be more cost effective method . Ship and Sub launched cruise can be dealt with effectively by Iranian Subs at sea . How many cruise missiles can they fire ? How many AD missiles , will Iran need to intercept ? How many cruise will get through ? I have to assume that , they will in the medium or long term , win the war of numbers . And once SEAD operation is made an impact, then they will come in with F35 and then F18.........


    "...but I think your ballistic missiles are your trump card... load a few up with pamphlets and land some in populated areas... self destruct them at safe altitudes of course... the sway of propaganda in a message to the locals would be turned sour if the rocket lands on someones house and wipes out their family like a US drone strike... " Agree . Once the war gets to a stage , where they have air superiority and are bombing at will , then as we talked before , symbolic attacks by ICBM against monuments can be done . Or detonation of strong flares at altitude . Or EMP . Or plastic mini-leaflet that will survive the trip and fall to Earth .This should not provoke a Nuclear response . But if it does , so be it !

    "....Obviously the Russians wont sell to Iran at the same prices they buy themselves, but the MiG-29M should be $60 million or rather less on the export market and would be much more capable than this Chinese aircraft... it might end up $70 million if they want licence production but then they would have the same issues with the Chinese plane getting more expensive with licence production rights.... "


    And what is the cost of an Iran defeated and destroyed by USA or a Nuclear attack on Iran by USA , for Russia and the world ? A not too unrealistic prospect ?



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    Post  JohninMK Tue Jan 04, 2022 11:21 am

    nomadski wrote:"
    And what is the cost of  an Iran defeated and destroyed by USA or a Nuclear attack on Iran by USA ,  for Russia and the world ? A not too unrealistic prospect ?


    The main cost, if it doesn't spin into WW3, will be the destruction of Israel.

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    Post  nomadski Tue Jan 04, 2022 7:57 pm

    If the world realises that collective security is needed in this world , to keep the peace , then they would not insist on destroying Iran Nuclear programme and they would do everything to arm Iran , in a way to maintain the balance of forces in the region and globally . Only then is there a chance for peace . The alternative as you said is regional or global destruction . Here the Israel minister still thinks a war with Iran is winnable !


    Israeli FM Vows to Counter 'Iranian Threat,' Says Israel Has Capabilities Some 'Cannot Even Imagine'


    https://sputniknews.com/20220101/israeli-fm-vows-to-counter-iranian-threat-says-israel-has-capabilities-some-cannot-even-imagine-1091954027.html


    Yes I can imagine ! They have a Death star in orbit !


    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=EgsQCI5MkyE

    Remember Armageddon is in Israel , not Iran !
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    Post  crod Wed Jan 05, 2022 7:04 am


    This is all nothing but purchase talk porn…Russia won’t be supplying any such systems to Iran. It won’t disrupt its relationship with the jews.

    Putin is losing patience with the EU/US/UK... does that extend to Israel too... especially with the recent attacks in Syria using Russian planes as cover for attacks on civilian ports...

    Maybe this is a back the **** up offer... if Israel changes policy and the west changes policy then perhaps they might only sell Su-30s instead of Su-35s, and MiG-29Ms instead of MiG-35s... but then AUKUS might have pissed France off so much Iran might be getting Rafales gifted to them soon anyway....  Twisted Evil [/quote]

    Might be losing patience but that doesn’t mean he’s willing to take on the agro of supplying such systems to Iran - I just don’t see Russia taking it on. I’d put a tenner on it.

    Russia most likely blames Iran as much as it does isreal, who is just boxing clever - it is a war after all.

    Re France I know that was just tongue in cheek, there’s more chance of me flying one of those jets straight from Moscow to Tehran without crashing!
    Plus the French and the yanks have made up…the they still hate the stupid australians.
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    Post  GarryB Wed Jan 05, 2022 9:21 am

    Yes , that is what I mean . I am not too happy about non-stealthy planes confronting stealthy planes , with Radar switched on AND ECM pods advertising location too .

    Radar would only be used when needed, and jamming pods would only be used when under attack... for example being illuminated by the seeker head of an AMRAAM ARH missile... and if that is happening the enemy aircraft already knows where you are anyway.

    With proper coordination with ground forces and aircraft you can have some platforms scanning for threats but equally quite a few other aircraft and ground forces operating radar in listening mode only, so not emitting any signal but listening for signals. The enemy... if it is using active radar will give away its own positions, but its stealthy aircraft will only be using their radar as little as possible to avoid giving away their position.

    This should give Iran as the home team a better situational awareness and the ability to look for threats and move radar and radio silent platforms closer to where they think the enemy stealthy aircraft and drones are located... when you get close enough the IRST and IR guided weapons can deal with the problem...

    The F35 attack will form part of their tactics . After they use cruise missile from B2 or B52 or Sub or Ship at sea . These have 3700 km range and are fitted with conventional warhead . Against B2 , very difficult to intercept by Air at 3700 km from border for Iran .

    Such standoff ranges makes engaging the launch platforms difficult, so instead of engaging the launch platforms, designate targets in the region that you will attack instead... US military bases HQs, Comms centres, US Airfields, etc etc.

    When they attack you, you attack them back.

    Ship and Sub launched cruise can be dealt with effectively by Iranian Subs at sea . How many cruise missiles can they fire ? How many AD missiles , will Iran need to intercept ? How many cruise will get through ? I have to assume that , they will in the medium or long term , win the war of numbers . And once SEAD operation is made an impact, then they will come in with F35 and then F18.........

    Low flying subsonic missiles are relatively easy to intercept... the real problem is detecting them on their way... Saudi Arabia didn't detect any till impact which is obviously too late.

    One advantage of forcing the US to launch attacks from extreme range is that you therefore get plenty of time to deal with them, and the solution again is a coordination of aircraft and ground base air defences.

    If they launch 300 missiles then of course you would struggle to deal with them all as they arrive on target, but using aircraft, you can engage them from where they are detected all the way to their targets... even an old model MiG-29 should be able to get 6 good kills with AAMs... the SARH R-27 could be used to deal with targets further away and after those two are launched the four remaining R-73s are just ideal for shooting down cruise missiles too... the gun system on the MiG-29 is very good too... approach from behind... get a lock on the cruise missile and pull the trigger for the cannon... the fire control system will use the IRST and laser range finder to get a precise location for the target (the IRST gives very precise angular information for the target but not range, but the laser gives very precise range information)... together they give a very precise location for the target in real time and when the fire control system on the plane detects the angles are just right it will allow the gun to fire a burst.

    The point is that even after the missiles are fired and the cannon is out of shells the plane can continue to fly around locating cruise missiles and passing target data to the ground air defence forces so they can attack them too.

    I believe Iran has Kornets and Igla-S both in licence production... the latter would be absolutely ideal for engaging cruise missiles as long as sufficient warning is given to the operator.

    The MiG could follow the cruise missiles till other aircraft arrive and start launching missiles to whittle down their numbers while they can return to base to rearm for another wave of missiles...

    The key is work together so no targets are hit and then respond to the attack with a ballistic missile or cruise missile attack of your own... where would their aircraft attack be based from... attack that airfield in response to their first attack...

    Agree . Once the war gets to a stage , where they have air superiority and are bombing at will , then as we talked before , symbolic attacks by ICBM against monuments can be done . Or detonation of strong flares at altitude . Or EMP . Or plastic mini-leaflet that will survive the trip and fall to Earth .This should not provoke a Nuclear response . But if it does , so be it !

    No way. Attack them back with ballistic and cruise missiles to prevent them gaining air superiority.... hit their air bases, their arms dumps and fuel supplies... the power stations near their bases.

    If they threaten nukes then say... that makes all US forces fair game and also Israel fair game... do they still want to play?

    And what is the cost of an Iran defeated and destroyed by USA or a Nuclear attack on Iran by USA , for Russia and the world ? A not too unrealistic prospect ?

    Iran has more justification to spend money on defence... because unlike US and EU and HATO budgets... it actually is on DEFENCE.... but equally we don't want Iran to spend away its wealth and future on weapons it does not need... that would be another way the west could defeat Iran is to get it to overspend on its military and ignore its economy and people.... a bit like North Korea...

    Here the Israel minister still thinks a war with Iran is winnable !

    And that is a problem and is very destabilising... maybe if the US and HATO does not want to give Russia security guarantees then Russia needs to give Iran security guarantees... perhaps set aside a dozen TOPOL missiles and sign a deal with Iran that if any country attacks them that they can give the go ahead and Russia will attack the country that attacked them... Russia can use its discretion to decide what form the return attack would take, but it will be up to and including TOPOL if needed.

    I am sure the US would say that isn't fair, but that is the agreement the US has with HATO countries... if they get attacked then the US is obliged to help... Russia making similar agreements with Iran is none of the wests business... isn't that how this works?

    Irans security is none of the wests business and Iran has every right to enter into security agreements and pacts with Russia if they want... I mean if Russia can stop Ukraine and Georgia joining HATO then what say should the west have in agreements Russia signs?

    Yes I can imagine ! They have a Death star in orbit !

    It is a diamond studded leash attached to Bidens diamond and emerald studded codpiece isn't it?

    I just don’t see Russia taking it on. I’d put a tenner on it.

    I am not a betting man... not because I don't believe I am right, but because I don't want to compound being wrong with owing someone money too. jocolor

    Might be losing patience but that doesn’t mean he’s willing to take on the agro of supplying such systems to Iran - I just don’t see Russia taking it on. I’d put a tenner on it.

    Russia most likely blames Iran as much as it does isreal, who is just boxing clever - it is a war after all.

    It would be a great way of linking their own demands with the current situation.

    At the moment the US and EU and HATO countries and non HATO countries are saying who they do or don't let into HATO is none of Russias business... a simple counter would be for Russia to say OK... if we can't say yes or no to Ukraine or Georgia entering HATO then you don't get any say in our defence agreements with other countries too as I mentioned above they could have a bilateral agreement with Iran, but they could expand it to the SCO group... Venezuela would love to join and I expect Cambodia and Cuba and North Korea would all love to get security guarantees from Russia... Russia could start investments and increase its presence in these regions to boost trade and really help these regions out... Russia has gone from broken to built back better and I am sure there is lots of advice and assistance they could give.... investments where the country they are working with gets help, but it is not just charity draining Russian resources... where both sides make money and create wealth and value and progress and develop.

    Re France I know that was just tongue in cheek, there’s more chance of me flying one of those jets straight from Moscow to Tehran without crashing!

    Fly over the Caspian Sea... shouldn't be a huge problem... jocolor

    Putin needs a response for when the west brushes him off... even if he does not use it... it would be a useful option...

    The west knows Russia is not going to attack Kiev out of the blue... it will stop Kievs forces if they try a violent solution to their current problems but they wont invade for any other reason because they don't want the Ukraine, that is just a myth.

    That is why they can make all sorts of threats they know they will never have to follow through on like kicking Russia out of SWIFT.

    Putin should do the same... basing Russian air defence regiments of S-400 and S-500 near the nuclear reactor in Iran for instance, or gifting them some Su-24s with upgrades and perhaps some MiG-29s from storage for the price of minor upgrades on them and perhaps a future licence production contract for MiG-29Ms... to be paid for in oil ventures... Hell, no... they should be doing that anyway... Licence production of Pantsir SAMs.... IADS equipment.

    Perhaps if the JPOA agreement is not resumed in its original form without preconditions Russia might sign a new agreement with Iran... they can be the first foreign producers and operators of Checkmates...

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    Post  Mig-31BM2 Super Irbis-E Sat May 21, 2022 5:18 pm

    AN-140 Copy

    On Thursday (May 19, 2022) HESA presented a new copy. As the Iranian news agencies Mehr and Tasnim report, it is a military van named Simorgh, named after a bird fabulous creature from Persian mythology. High -ranking military was present.

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    Post  Mig-31BM2 Super Irbis-E Thu May 26, 2022 9:58 pm

    Status-6
    @Archer83Able
    ·
    24. Mai
    A F-7 fighter jet of the Islamic Republic of Iran Air Force has crashed on Wednesday in the Isfahan Province of Iran. Both crew-members perished.

    (IRNA)
    https://twitter.com/Archer83Able/status/1528989950439575552

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