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    Project 21631: Buyan-M missile ship

    Big_Gazza
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    Post  Big_Gazza Thu Oct 12, 2023 11:57 am

    One needs to consider what equipment spaces exist beneath that location.  Ships are designed with specified areas for weapons and sensors,  while other areas support essential systems like electrical power and propulsion.  You can't completely re-arrange a ships internal equipment distribution just because you want to put a Pantsir-M on the back of the top deck. Practicality dictates that you just settle for replacing the AK-630M-2.

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    Post  GarryB Fri Oct 13, 2023 12:32 am

    Pantsir has under deck equipment for missile reloads so you can't just move it around like it is just a turret... it takes up space below deck as well.

    They are working on a mini SAM for their land forces which would probably also be very good for their navy too.

    They are talking about an ARH missile, but an IIR guided version and also a command guided missile could be added to the range simply because command guided is much cheaper and still very effective... Pantsir and TOR are both command guided and are very accurate and effective as long as they have decent radars and even a corvette with huge AESA has good radar.

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    George1
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    Post  George1 Mon Jan 01, 2024 12:20 pm

    Small rocket ship "Naro-Fominsk" was put into operation

    Project 21631: Buyan-M missile ship - Page 25 10522510

    https://bmpd.livejournal.com/4788191.html

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    Post  Krepost Wed Jun 12, 2024 4:11 am

    The 12th and last project 21631 missile ship has been launched.
    The STAVROPOL will serve in the Baltic fleet.
    It will not have the PANTSIR-M system as some have speculated.
    Just the usual DUET and GIBKA mounts.

    Project 21631: Buyan-M missile ship - Page 25 11-12114

    Project 21631: Buyan-M missile ship - Page 25 11-12115

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    Post  Arrow Wed Jun 12, 2024 4:44 am

    Six years of construction of a ship with a displacement of 1,000 tons.  A very long time. It takes them little longer to build the incomparably complex and much larger 955A submarines Shocked

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    lancelot
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    Post  lancelot Thu Jun 13, 2024 2:33 am

    Arrow wrote:Six years of construction of a ship with a displacement of 1,000 tons.  A very long time. It takes them little longer to build the incomparably complex and much larger 955A submarines Shocked
    It is a new type corvette with a different propulsion unit. It uses two 16D49 Kolomna diesel engines instead of the Chinese or German diesels. This 12th ship is part of a batch with 16D49 together with the 10th and 11th ships.

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    Post  GarryB Thu Jun 13, 2024 7:23 am

    It is a new ship design that is likely fully multirole which makes development and testing rather more complex and time consuming.

    Plus a lot of equipment now needs to be locally produced instead of using off the shelf imports... from seats to engines...

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    Post  ALAMO Thu Jun 13, 2024 7:52 am

    I would go even further.
    Keeping Gibka and Duet instead of Pantsir suggests, that those ships won't operate in open waters.
    My guess, it is a vessel made as a force multiplier.
    Those will operate inside of Russian territory, on lakes and rivers, just amassing punch if needed, and where needed.

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    Post  Krepost Fri Jun 14, 2024 2:22 am

    ALAMO wrote:I would go even further.
    Keeping Gibka and Duet instead of Pantsir suggests, that those ships won't operate in open waters.
    My guess, it is a vessel made as a force multiplier.
    Those will operate inside of Russian territory, on lakes and rivers, just amassing punch if needed, and where needed.

    This one is going to serve in the Baltic Fleet. It will spend some quality time in lake Ladoga.

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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Fri Jun 14, 2024 1:05 pm

    It is important to be aware of the fact that Duet isn't just two AK-630s, and Gibka isn't just two guys out of the deck holding Verba or Igla-S launchers.

    The ship has an air and surface search radar that can detect targets 24/7 and it will have thermal optics and other EW equipment that can defect threats at quite a distance so the Gibka can be pointed in the right direction ready to fire and so can the Duet.

    Plus it has a 100mm deck gun that should be able to use air burst shells against a few different air target types too.
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    Post  ALAMO Fri Jun 14, 2024 1:56 pm

    GarryB wrote:It is important to be aware of the fact that Duet isn't just two AK-630s, and Gibka isn't just two guys out of the deck holding Verba or Igla-S launchers.
    The ship has an air and surface search radar that can detect targets 24/7 and it will have thermal optics and other EW equipment that can defect threats at quite a distance so the Gibka can be pointed in the right direction ready to fire and so can the Duet.
    Plus it has a 100mm deck gun that should be able to use air burst shells against a few different air target types too.

    Well, as always we need to take a look from a perspective to get a clue.
    Buyan-M is <1000t, 60+ m corvette. It is armed with Gibka, Duet, and universal 100mm naval gun. Not to mention USKS Twisted Evil
    There is only one ship in the west we can compare to it, which would be a 1000t version of the Gowind corvette.
    But the case is, that nobody ordered it in that configuration Laughing
    The smallest ones are the Argentinian, still with 1500-1700t displacement, and armed with ... 30 mm cannon and 0.5' machine guns Laughing Laughing Laughing
    All the others are much bigger - 3000+t, and only then do those carry a small version of Sylver with VL Mica ...
    The same applies to both LCS and German K130 which are armed with 56 and 76mm guns and RAM, being 3500 and 1900t, respectively.
    So again, we are facing the situation when Russkie ship is smaller and better armed rather than any competitor.

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    Post  lancelot Fri Jun 14, 2024 5:09 pm

    The lack of Pantsir-M is probably due to it not being available and in service when they started building these ships.
    The first ship with Pantsir-M was only certified for its use like late last year I think.

    The Karakurt does all the missions that this ship does and is meant to have better seamanship. But that has its own issues. The engines again.

    The Buyan-M is basically a missile corvette which is meant to operate in the canal system and the inland seas of Russia.

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    Post  GarryB Sat Jun 15, 2024 9:36 am

    Not to mention USKS

    Ahh.. forgot about that, so if you needed it it could carry up to 32 9M96 SAMs in both sizes... 60km and 150km range models with ARH missiles, or the S-400 or naval BUK missiles... one to a tube...

    It should also be able to carry the 9M100 CIWS missiles as well for short range self defence if needed...

    An aspect of Pantsir is that while it has two 30mm cannon and 8 ready to fire missiles plus another 32 missiles below deck with an automatic reload system it does take up three decks of a ship with reloads and systems and equipment... which takes up a lot of space on a relatively small ship.

    Ironically the naval TOR was mainly fitted to very big ships but with AESA radar integrated into the Ships sensor suite you could probably just put boxes of missiles on the deck around the place... the vertical launch means they can be launched in any direction and the command nature of the missiles means they could be directed by the ships system with software upgrades easily enough.

    They are also working on much much smaller air defence missiles in the 10-20kg weight class for short range self defence that could be loaded in similar on deck bins but obviously rather smaller than the TOR whose warhead is heavier than these new missiles being developed.

    Would be interesting to see what develops but I would hope that Gibka is upgraded to allow Shturm and Kornet and Bulat as well as these new short range guided self defence missiles to be loaded and compatible with them to make them flexible and able to engage targets with little or no radar or IR signature.
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    Post  Mig-31BM2 Super Irbis-E Sat Jun 15, 2024 2:07 pm

    These ships without PantsirM is not appropriate in today's threat situation.

    I expect 12 new ships of this type. More ships of this type means more power projection AND more air defense and this is essential with regard to drones.

    It is also best to equip these ships with 1x8 and 2x16 long and short TOR system.

    Not too expensive in case of loss of the ship, but numerous and also heavily armed with cruise missiles and high-value air defense courses.

    If then do the right thing right away and pack a TOR on it!

    These systems are also mobile, which makes detection and reconnaissance near the Crimea, etc., much more difficult. If the mobile TOR throwers were, that would be a huge improvement.
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    Post  ALAMO Sat Jun 15, 2024 3:17 pm

    Yes, Russkie should make a <1000t corvette beefed up at least to the Death Star standard.
    A 2-terawatts maser with two 12-inch rail guns is the absolute minimum.
    And a black mattery collider at bow.
    Otherwise, they are pussies and Putin is a traitor.
    And he will be called by name by a bunch of supa dupa experts at a random internet platform.
    Eat that, Putler, you bastard!

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    Post  Hole Sat Jun 15, 2024 5:29 pm

    Don´t forget a regiment of drones. And unmanned boats, of course.
    Some unmanned submersibles would be great, too.

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    Post  ALAMO Sat Jun 15, 2024 6:03 pm

    And it should both fly and submerge.
    And hold a 100+ air contingent aside from drones.
    At least.
    Did I mention that it should fly to Mars and back on its own tanks?

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    Post  Mig-31BM2 Super Irbis-E Sat Jun 15, 2024 9:16 pm

    ALAMO wrote:Yes, Russkie should make a <1000t corvette beefed up at least to the Death Star standard.
    A 2-terawatts maser with two 12-inch rail guns is the absolute minimum.
    And a black mattery collider at bow.
    Otherwise, they are pussies and Putin is a traitor.
    And he will be called by name by a bunch of supa dupa experts at a random internet platform.
    Eat that, Putler, you bastard!
    What are you actually trolling NATO for here? Making a False flag friendly to Russia? After all, you are a paid NATO troll who is not demanding improvements for Russia here. He wants exactly the opposite of what Putin always demands. Improvements and quick adjustments to the current situation.

    You play the role of the Russian patriot here and describe all those who want the changes to a stronger Russia as trolls for NATO.

    You are the real enemy of all Russians. You want to keep her weak. You're telling them they don't have to change anything. Everything is going well blah blah.

    Putin is not Stalin. Putin sees mistakes and this ship is lost and useless without a TOR (from me also cheap PanzirM).

    If you mean troll, this is Russia bashing, you are a little paid NATO CLown. An enemy of Russia.
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    Post  Hole Sat Jun 15, 2024 9:29 pm

    Did I mention that it should fly to Mars and back on its own tanks?
    Nuclear propulsion would be nice.  Very Happy

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    Post  ALAMO Sat Jun 15, 2024 10:41 pm

    Quantum engine and warp 12 is a minimum - as we still talk a sub1kt corvette.
    And forget a black matter emitter on the bow - we need at least two of those.
    Make it four.
    Besides, let's pimp up the rail gun to 16 inches.
    Otherwise, I will call that all rubbish!
    Beware of me calling you rubbish!
    Putler, you traitor!!

    Mig-31BM2 Super Irbis-E wrote:
    What are you actually trolling NATO for here? .

    I am actually "trolling" that you are an idiot who can't get a clue or perspective.
    But I can take my punishment, not knowing that you are a teenager with balls on fire.
    I can understand the case - was one, decades ago.

    By the way, is that overtrolled and overegoed "supa dupa mig suchoi super 23 46 128" even real, or just a regular fart?

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    Post  Krepost Sun Jun 16, 2024 3:06 am

    ...and most importantly: it should be able hover and super-cruise at the same time.

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    Post  GarryB Sun Jun 16, 2024 4:15 am

    These ships without PantsirM is not appropriate in today's threat situation.

    Only in the sense that any small ship on its own could be overwhelmed with rocket artillery or airborne drones or surface drones, but most ships this size around the world are no better protected.

    The point is that they are now working on small point defence intercept missiles able to engage threats like drones and artillery shells and rockets to defend targets on land and at sea and possibly also in the air.

    Once those systems, along with the new jammers and active defence systems like lasers and airburst gun rounds and more precise AESA radar detection and tracking as well as perhaps IRST and LIDAR sensors are developed and deployed they can be fitted to all Russian ships from landing boats to cruisers.


    If then do the right thing right away and pack a TOR on it!

    They are working on a anti drone shorter ranged TOR missile that could be carried in larger numbers.

    The current TOR requires an enormous radar and control tower to manage the system as shown on the ships that carry it like the Kuznetsov. It has not been fitted to any ships smaller than 5,000 tons AFAIK.

    Most drones wont be detected at very great ranges so having 200+kg SAMs with 20kg warheads to intercept them is a bit of a waste.

    Obviously heavy anti ship missiles and aircraft will require such missiles so they will be carried too, but I suspect the 100mm guns carried by Russian ships can be improved and with air burst ammo and modern AESA radar out to shorter ranges of 2-4km they would be rather effective against small air targets.

    And of course with the energy generation on board even a quite small ship you can have DEW and lasers of a range of types to hit targets or blind them.

    You play the role of the Russian patriot here and describe all those who want the changes to a stronger Russia as trolls for NATO.

    Developing new defence systems takes time... can you name a single tank today that can shrug off a missile hit?

    Remember missiles include Kh-38s with 250kg warheads if you need them, but even Vikhr and Kornet and Khrisantema have powerful warheads that can penetrate a lot of armour. The Combat Approved video on the Khrisantema showed a missile hitting a solid steel block 1 cubic metre and penetrating it...

    But no one says tanks are junk because you need mobile gun platforms on the battlefield.

    BMPs have even less armour but are needed to move your troops around.

    Ships will always be vulnerable and you are going to lose them... there is nothing you can put on a small ship (that will fit) that will protect that ship from every conceivable threat to that ship.

    Drones are a new problem and so is artillery... including shells and rockets... the difference from previous air defence problems is the volume... you might get a dozen artillery rockets coming in at once or more, or artillery shells... and most air defence systems can't cope with that, so these new systems are being designed to operate with fire and forget missiles that are small and very accurate and with a decent 3kg warhead to ensure the destruction of the incoming threat.

    Obviously even if they intercept everything they wont be perfect... an incoming Iskander missile is still a few hundred kgs of metal and plastic even with the fuel burned up and the warhead prematurely detonated 800m up in the air by your interceptor missile and that sort of weight coming down at a reasonable speed can destroy a truck or support vehicle if it land on it.

    If it was a cluster munition armed weapon then the problem is even bigger but has to be dealt with earlier using a larger SAM that can hit it earlier in its flight before it releases its munitions.

    I don't think he is trolling, he is saying there are limits to what you can fit to a small boat and while they are working on new stuff intended to deal with the new problems, those solutions wont be ready now or even the near future, because the problems are complex.

    Improving the sensor array of all ships large and small is a key and important first step and sensors like IRST and LIDAR that can detect targets with low RCS, but also scan the entire hemisphere including straight up all the time would be useful in comparison with radar which does not normally look up for threats all the time. unless it is pointed up specifically for that task.

    Land based SAMs have mast mounted radar for very low flying threats.... I suspect they will introduce radar sets designed to look for high trajectory ballistic targets too to fill that gap in the radar coverage.[/quote]
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    Post  Big_Gazza Sun Jun 16, 2024 9:38 am

    Krepost wrote:...and most importantly: it should be able hover and super-cruise at the same time.

    You guys are all such childish idiots, making light of such a vital issue....  angry

    Stavopol is not fitted with the Omega 13 device, first trialled in the NSA Protector.  Thats it, Putin has lost my respect now, he must be a secret Neocon agent intent on the downfall of the Holy Mother Russia...

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    Relocated to the Talking Bollocks thread in 3...2...1... Laughing

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    Post  Hole Sun Jun 16, 2024 10:36 am

    .and most importantly: it should be able hover and super-cruise at the same time.
    Quantum engine should be capable of doing that.

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    Post  GunshipDemocracy Sun Jun 16, 2024 3:19 pm

    GarryB wrote:


    If then do the right thing right away and pack a TOR on it!

    Most drones wont be detected at very great ranges so having 200+kg SAMs with 20kg warheads to intercept them is a bit of a waste.


    Nope, it's a lot of waste. As for cost-effective AAD, perhaps Sosna could be installed. There's no need for additional radars and it has a bit longer range than Verb/Strela. Currently, FPV drones are not the main threat, nor are the larger Bayraktar ones (they can be reached by a 100mm gun, by the way), but submersible ones. In that case, Pantsir wouldn't make much of a difference.





    I don't think he is trolling, he is saying there are limits to what you can fit to a small boat and while they are working on new stuff intended to deal with the new problems, those solutions wont be ready now or even the near future, because the problems are complex.

    her is , in a quite ironic form though  pirat  pirat  pirat

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