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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #2

    TR1
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    Post  TR1 on Wed Mar 19, 2014 7:45 pm

    NickM wrote:
    Sujoy wrote:India won't back western sanctions against Russia over Crimea

     lol! India  Laughing Laughing It's support or lack of it means nothing to anyone .

    Yeah not like they are a major economy.
    arpakola
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    Post  arpakola on Wed Mar 19, 2014 7:53 pm

    AlfaT8 wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:Germany has placed sanctions on as trade with Russia. Reihmetall deals canceled.

    Guess I was right after all when I said that Russian mod needs to buy Russian, not export. That said, they should probably face no issues then copying whatever they got and improve upon it themselves, as well as sell to whomever they please, withought backlash.
    Good, now all thats left is to find out if Reihmetall has to pay any penalties to Russia for breaking there "contractual obligations".  Cool

    supply 12 X units S400 and 48X Panchir to IRAN
    that would do

    also Iskander to Syria and IRAN
    KomissarBojanchev
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    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Wed Mar 19, 2014 7:53 pm

    TR1 wrote:
    ahmedfire wrote:I listened to president putin speech , strong one ,but why he specially mentioned the german people ?

    Will Russia let Ukraine to join NATO , if that happened i think Russia will be the looser in this situation even after crimea annexation.

    Who cares if Ukraine goes NATO?

    Does nothing since the only strategically important part of Ukraine is now Russian.

    Russia already has NATO members, nothing has changed.
    What about Nikolayev? It will take another decade or 2 for russia to have  a ship yard as capable as it. It cant be let to become a NATO production powerhouse or rot into nothingness.
    TR1
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    Post  TR1 on Wed Mar 19, 2014 7:58 pm

    Nikolayev is rusting and can't make anything worthwhile right now. Their personnel situation is as bad.

    It would be easier for Russia to make its own new shipyards, which it is slowly doing. The only thing Nikolayev offers is large space + that huge crane. Russia can make that within the span of 5 years, if it is economically worthwhile.

    NATO has no use for Ukranine's military industry, if anything you will see the industry be strangled out.
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    Post  etaepsilonk on Wed Mar 19, 2014 8:09 pm

    When was the last time Nikolaev shipyard actually built a ship?
    It's already rotten to the core, rebuilding it would probably cost the same, as building a new one.

    However, I'd disagree that Crimea is the only strategically important region. That also applies to Odessa (easy to defend, direct access to Dnestr and Danube rivers).



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    I didn't even think, that they still do such shows.
    arpakola
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    Post  arpakola on Wed Mar 19, 2014 8:32 pm

    KomissarBojanchev wrote:
    TR1 wrote:
    ahmedfire wrote:I listened to president putin speech , strong one ,but why he specially mentioned the german people ?

    Will Russia let Ukraine to join NATO , if that happened i think Russia will be the looser in this situation even after crimea annexation.

    Who cares if Ukraine goes NATO?

    Does nothing since the only strategically important part of Ukraine is now Russian.

    Russia already has NATO members, nothing has changed.
    What about Nikolayev? It will take another decade or 2 for russia to have  a ship yard as capable as it. It cant be let to become a NATO production powerhouse or rot into nothingness.

    Ukraine is to be used from EU /NATO for food production and missile - radar bases
    and that's ok if is West to the Dneip river
    magnumcromagnon
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    Post  magnumcromagnon on Wed Mar 19, 2014 9:14 pm

    TR1 wrote:
    ahmedfire wrote:I listened to president putin speech , strong one ,but why he specially mentioned the german people ?

    Will Russia let Ukraine to join NATO , if that happened i think Russia will be the looser in this situation even after crimea annexation.

    Who cares if Ukraine goes NATO?

    Does nothing since the only strategically important part of Ukraine is now Russian.

    Russia already has NATO members, nothing has changed.

    The Russian MOD, btw the missile bases will be a prelude to a nuclear first strike that Andrew Marshall desperately wants, I say Russia should respond in kind by deploying missile and submarine bases in Cuba and in Algeria, fitted with S-400's, S-500's, Iskander-M's and road mobile YARS-24's.
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    Post  etaepsilonk on Wed Mar 19, 2014 9:26 pm

    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    TR1 wrote:
    ahmedfire wrote:I listened to president putin speech , strong one ,but why he specially mentioned the german people ?

    Will Russia let Ukraine to join NATO , if that happened i think Russia will be the looser in this situation even after crimea annexation.

    Who cares if Ukraine goes NATO?

    Does nothing since the only strategically important part of Ukraine is now Russian.

    Russia already has NATO members, nothing has changed.

    The Russian MOD, btw the missile bases will be a prelude to a nuclear first strike that Andrew Marshall desperately wants, I say Russia should respond in kind by deploying missile and submarine bases in Cuba and in Algeria, fitted with S-400's, S-500's, Iskander-M's and road mobile YARS-24's.


    Wouldn't Borei SSBNs be just as effective, but much cheaper option? Smile



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    Western "values" at work  Neutral 

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    etaepsilonk

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    Post  etaepsilonk on Wed Mar 19, 2014 10:27 pm

    On a lighter note, it appears that NATO is training on a possible contingency in Ukraine using a realistic simulation of Eastern European environment  Wink 
    magnumcromagnon
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    Post  magnumcromagnon on Wed Mar 19, 2014 10:30 pm

    etaepsilonk wrote:
    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    TR1 wrote:
    ahmedfire wrote:I listened to president putin speech , strong one ,but why he specially mentioned the german people ?

    Will Russia let Ukraine to join NATO , if that happened i think Russia will be the looser in this situation even after crimea annexation.

    Who cares if Ukraine goes NATO?

    Does nothing since the only strategically important part of Ukraine is now Russian.

    Russia already has NATO members, nothing has changed.

    The Russian MOD, btw the missile bases will be a prelude to a nuclear first strike that Andrew Marshall desperately wants, I say Russia should respond in kind by deploying missile and submarine bases in Cuba and in Algeria, fitted with S-400's, S-500's, Iskander-M's and road mobile YARS-24's.


    Wouldn't Borei SSBNs be just as effective, but much cheaper option? Smile



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    Western "values" at work  Neutral 

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #2 - Page 20 B72ICu_TK7E

    I did say submarine bases didn't I? Wink BTW Russia has oil exploration efforts in both Algeria and off the coast of Cuba, so they're also defending their economic interests as well.
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    Post  etaepsilonk on Wed Mar 19, 2014 10:45 pm

    Sorry, but I think that SSBN bases in Cuba may be a bit... impractical, so to say.
    zino
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    Post  zino on Wed Mar 19, 2014 11:04 pm

    I don't share the humor running in this thread

    "Ukraine says it is leaving the Moscow-led Commonwealth of Independent States and is preparing military exercises with the US and UK"
    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26645477
    "National Security Council acting head: Ukraine decides to quit CIS"
    http://en.itar-tass.com/world/724459
    "Ukraine intends to introduce visa regulations with Russia"
    interfax.com

    Things are escalating so much. Hard days ahead.
    ahmedfire
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    Post  ahmedfire on Wed Mar 19, 2014 11:51 pm

    TR1 wrote:
    ahmedfire wrote:I listened to president putin speech , strong one ,but why he specially mentioned the german people ?

    Will Russia let Ukraine to join NATO , if that happened i think Russia will be the looser in this situation even after crimea annexation.

    Who cares if Ukraine goes NATO?

    Does nothing since the only strategically important part of Ukraine is now Russian.

    Russia already has NATO members, nothing has changed.

    Let's be more clear , Russia support Yanukovich not because " the legal elected government " or something like that it's only because he is in the Russian side and the opposition in the west side , so it's very important where is the ukranian side ! with the superpower countries like Russia ,the neighboring lands like Ukraine is also "politically and as a national security " a Russian lands , that's why US acted that way in the cuban missiles crisis , Russia should not let the US missile shield on it's borders and who knows US could put some nuclear missiles in ukraine to gurantee fast first nuclear hit and therefore the first kill in any future conflict .
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Thu Mar 20, 2014 12:49 am

    Any ABM missiles in the Ukraine could not be justified except in terms of stopping Russian ICBMs, which means the Russians could tear up the new START treaty and do as they wish.

    US ballistic or cruise missiles in the Ukraine would immediately lead to the Russian withdrawl from the INF treaty and lots of IRBMs developed and deployed.

    More importantly any missiles based in the Ukraine should be able to be dealt with using S-400, with S-500 actually being overkill on such short range weapons.

    Reading recent reports the Russian military is in the process of moving from nuclear deterrence to precision guided conventional weapon deterrence, so instead of having to nuke the hell out of a country to ensure specific components are hit soon they will be able to do what the west has been doing and use conventional surgical strike weapons to hit specific strategic threats....

    Regarding the Ukraine it will be interesting to see what happens when they try to have elections... I don't think all of the Ukraine will accept being dragged into the EU by force...

    How Ironic really... during the cold war if I had said that after the collapse of the Soviet Union that the EU would be taking former Soviet Republics by force or underhanded organised colur revolutions most people would have said that would be what Russia would do.... how ironic!
    Hannibal Barca
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    Post  Hannibal Barca on Thu Mar 20, 2014 1:17 am



    I want them hanged! and I want it short!
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    Post  GarryB on Thu Mar 20, 2014 3:04 am

    Who cares what Joe Biden thinks... he has stood by as the US has shown Russia what a truly dark path is, with the deaths of enormous numbers of people and for what.. the US is no safer... the US is no richer... it violates the sovereignty of every country on the planet every day via its NSA... ironically the only part of the US government that actually listens to the people... lol! 

    It is clearly time for Russia to look elsewhere for trading partners...
    sepheronx
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    Post  sepheronx on Thu Mar 20, 2014 3:47 am

    GarryB wrote:Who cares what Joe Biden thinks... he has stood by as the US has shown Russia what a truly dark path is, with the deaths of enormous numbers of people and for what.. the US is no safer... the US is no richer... it violates the sovereignty of every country on the planet every day via its NSA... ironically the only part of the US government that actually listens to the people... lol! 

    It is clearly time for Russia to look elsewhere for trading partners...

    As much as the peons on MP.net like to believe, there are many more countries willing to do business with other than USA, France, Germany, ect. yes, they are economically far more relevant than other countries, but Russia can start to build up its domestic wealth by working more with private and state run industries to get the average Russian wealthier, as well as make owning a business even more easier. Then start to economically build up allied nations like Kazakhstan and Belarus in order to get them into the game of purchasing Russian goods. Armenia, Kyrgyzstan and Tajikistan have shown interest of joining customs union. Why not get Cuba, Venezuela, Vietnam and Nicaragua into it as well, and start pumping out Russian businesses to these countries as investments. Money will end up coming back.

    Companies who have a lot of co-investment from west, will seek other investors, and it is no secret that China wanted to increase trade turnover to $100B this year, and with majority of foreign FDR is in energy companies, China and India both would probably be very interested in purchasing shares and or co-developing. Agriculture, food, is very important especially for India and China, thus Russia is prime for agriculture development too. Iran is a wild card here, but as long as Russian gov does not keep using them as a card, then Russia could get more than just energy deals with Iran, and bolstering them up will be another big key for Russia. Egypt and Algeria are two other countries that it would be wise for Russia to invest in, especially in mobile market, energy, agriculture and tourism.
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    Post  GarryB on Thu Mar 20, 2014 4:31 am

    You invest for two reasons... to help something grow and mature, or to make money.

    The west invests in Russia to make money.

    Russia loses nothing from the loss of western investment.
    TR1
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    Post  TR1 on Thu Mar 20, 2014 4:38 am

    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/53/Zaporizhya.jpg

    The real reason Russia violated Ukraine's sovereignty Very Happy .

    Kinda curious what happens to Ukrainian military equipment in the Crimea. Most of it is in shit shape, but not all...
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    Post  dionis on Thu Mar 20, 2014 4:45 am

    Getting Nikolaev with unfinished Ukraina would have been the real bonus. Wink
    TR1
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    Post  TR1 on Thu Mar 20, 2014 9:33 am

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TB2k4cmvJJ0

    Tractor ramming its way into Ukrainian military base. Lots of Russian flags, music, and other patriotic crap.

    I feel bad for the Ukrainian troops.
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    Post  Werewolf on Thu Mar 20, 2014 10:00 am

    TR1 wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TB2k4cmvJJ0

    Tractor ramming its way into Ukrainian military base. Lots of Russian flags, music, and other patriotic crap.

    I feel bad for the Ukrainian troops.

    Everything was civil and better ukrainian military forces are overlooked by russian forces instead letting them stay under the pressure of the facists, since Ukrainian army got the order to shoot at russians and lot of just ignored it but some troops of ukrainian army are now rolling towards crimean boarder.
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    Post  Austin on Thu Mar 20, 2014 12:21 pm

    US and Russia exchange threats in heated UN debate on Crimea

       
    US Ambassador to the UN Samantha Power told the General Assembly that Russia's annexation of Crimea was nothing more than a land

        'A thief can steal property, but that does not confer the right of ownership on the thief,' Power said

        The Russian ambassador responded by saying 'It is simply unacceptable to listen to these insults addressed to our country'

        Russia called the Crimea situation 'a historic injustice [that] has been righted

    Hannibal Barca
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    Post  Hannibal Barca on Thu Mar 20, 2014 1:32 pm

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     Very Happy 
    AlfaT8
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    Post  AlfaT8 on Thu Mar 20, 2014 1:50 pm

    arpakola wrote:
    AlfaT8 wrote:Well this is unexpected.
    MOSCOW, March 18 (RIA Novosti) – Ukraine’s breakaway region of Crimea will ask Tatars to vacate part of the land where they now live in exchange for new territory elsewhere in the region, a top Crimean government official said Tuesday.
    Can somebody get some more details on this, cause it starting to look like they are forcing the Tatars out of there homes, which i hope isn't the case.  Sad
    LaW and order ..

    in any civilised country the homes without licence to build are demolished , and land that has not properly bought returns to the state

    tartars or everybody else they took advantage of the chaos .. well ther is no chaos any more..

    Austin wrote:US and Russia exchange threats in heated UN debate on Crimea

    Hmmm... Article mentions some incident involving the Tatars again, i will ask again do we have any details on the situation down there.

    Not some dribble about order and civilized country, but some actual info/details.

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