Russia - USA Relations

GarryB wrote:

Russia wont invade the Ukraine if it joins HATO, but I rather suspect they will line up a range of weapons on a hair trigger to vapourise the Ukraine and likely most of Europe if they see something they don't like.... wanna play Russian roulette?

Russia will not allow this, if they join they join, Russian gas gets cut off. That simple.

GarryB wrote:

The Russians can also build a series of visible cruise missile ships that are nuclear powered and carry a SHITLOAD of missiles and patrol at the same distance US missiles are based in Europe. These ships will be painted brightly in the flag of the Russia and there will be NO MISTAKING THEM. It will not be that expensive either.

Waste of money and time.

The fact is the American people do not feel any threat from the idiotic foreign policy. The need to feel a direct threat. They totally shit their pants as a nation after 911. Knowing there are two ships just in international waters that could incinerate them in 15 mins would make the consequences of that policy real. Billions are already being spent on SSBNs, ICBM, bombers and cruise missiles. But the message is not getting where it needs to go. Another 3-5B more is a drop in the bucket. Being "tough on Russia" gets you votes in the USA. This is a clear way to change the conversation. Americans actually think their ABMs can stop a full strike by Russia. They are collectively that stupid.

GarryB wrote:
I suspect they will withdraw from those agreements they made about not targeting each other with nuclear weapons and openly state publicly that any US forces bases in all of Europe will be targeted by Russian Intermediate range nuclear weapons... including ballistic and cruise weapons that will all be nuclear armed. The government centres of those countries that have US forces on their territory will also be targeted 24/7.

I think they already said so with regard to the ABM sites and moved Iskander missiles to Kaliningrad to back up the threat.

This article by Paul Craig Roberts is a good perspective on the danger of the current hatred of Russia by neocons that is dangerous:

https://www.unz.com/proberts/no-reassurance-for-russia-is-dangerous/

https://sputniknews.com/20220112/nato-seeking-to-contain-russia-top-russian-negotiator-says-after-talks-1092209867.html

Well the talks have fallen through. We have the deputy defense minister confirming, Russia will pursue the course of counter containment.

Something big is coming

Arkanghelsk wrote:https://sputniknews.com/20220112/nato-seeking-to-contain-russia-top-russian-negotiator-says-after-talks-1092209867.html

Well the talks have fallen through. We have the deputy defense minister confirming, Russia will pursue the course of counter containment.

Something big is coming

Everybody knew this would happen.

If an automated system could be built , that took the human element out of the equation . Then I think it makes no difference , what kind of advance warning is needed . Since a machine can decide if Nuke explosion occurred , and then automatically launched counter strike .

The problem is that an automated system might launch a counter attack in error... and a system that has to decide in less than 3 minutes is as prone to error as humans trying to make the same decision...

When a nuke explosion has occurred then you are a bit late to start your retaliation strike because that means the enemy attack is well under way.

Russia will not allow this, if they join they join, Russian gas gets cut off. That simple.

If the Ukraine and Georgia join HATO then I would think Russia would realise there is no point in talking to HATO and the EU because they are clearly not listening... so cut off all communications and trade links with the two blocks.

That would include cease gas sales.

Being "tough on Russia" gets you votes in the USA. This is a clear way to change the conversation. Americans actually think their ABMs can stop a full strike by Russia. They are collectively that stupid.

They think they should have a say in everything, and that they are indispensable... personally I think Russia should just cut ties with them completely.

The core problem there is that the UN is based in the US which means they can just bar Russia from attending... perhaps Russia needs to withdraw from all the international organisations that the west controls and has corrupted and start their own alternatives that are truly international.

Humans historically do not change.

You want "security guarantee's"? Earn them, the hard fought way. The Americans earn theirs their way (whatever your opinions of it that may be). But to beg..... how low can you fall under the veneer of "responsible politics" and "strategic patience"...

It's a failed policy. As shown today. Appeasement more often than not doesn't work - specially when dealing with Anglo-Saxons/Germans (what is history if not a guide). The Romans knew how to deal with them... take a book and read.

Those responsible for such failed policies would obviously in a perfect world see the door out, never to be heard again, for such foolishness is fatal, and consequential, but if there is something that's terminally cancerous in Russian politics, historically, is that fools manage to keep their positions even when shown to be completely inept, criminally incompetent even. This obviously plagues other states as well, but tolerance in Russia for fools in high seats of power is quite unusual (for a great power)... may be cultural (which is the worst type of all).

ATLASCUB wrote:Humans historically do not change.

You want "security guarantee's"? Earn them, the hard fought way. The Americans earn theirs their way (whatever your opinions of it that may be). But to beg..... how low can you fall under the veneer of "responsible politics" and "strategic patience"...

It's a failed policy. As shown today. Appeasement more often than not doesn't work - specially when dealing with Anglo-Saxons/Germans (what is history if not a guide). The Romans knew how to deal with them... take a book and read.

You mean the events in Teutoburg Forests?.....
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Teutoburg_Forest

Also, nothing wrong with trying to prevent bloodshed.
All means to talk it out must be exhausted before commiting to war.

It will wreck industries, agriculture, Economies collapse.
More importantly, troops send to war will mostly not come home. or damaged beyond repair.
Bombs will fall on civilian area's. tearing fammily's appart further.
Mothers and fathers will lose kids, Kids will become orphans.

I know it may be for some pretty hard to fathom the consequence of War...
It takes decades to recover from such losses.

Russia lost about 7.4 million civilians in world war 2.
I think they got about 8.8 million dead soldiers with god knows how many maimed for life.

I have no doubt Russia knows the price of war.
Russia does not do appeasement. it is being the adult in the room. dealing with toddlers that are playing around with fire.

I think you have the roles mixed since 1991... as for quoting a cherry picked battle for jingoistic pride, please.... the short end of the stick, on average, overwhelmingly, went the other side. Civilization eventually reached the north, at the short end of a stick.... although considering the severity of the conflicts that have ensued since then, the white race is, relatively speaking, worst off, with a severe crisis for both identity and sustainable population growth (relative to other races).

You would think the Russians would know, since WW2 is so fresh, historically speaking, not to "fall for deceit", or "temptation"... but again, some fools just can't help themselves, even when their excuses for failure are mere attempts to shift the blame elsewhere..... "we were promised" "we didn't knew they were going to expand".... old fools, not only did you all knew....everybody in the god damn planet knew. But again, too much tolerance... hence all of them lived peacefully..... many still alive in old age, in retirement... left to wrestle with their conscience, which obviously is of very little for such human beings..... considering all the bloodshed, and suffering that ensued as a consequence of their decisions - and still paying dividends today.

Now you get a repeat, anyway. Not only that, you're worse off. Trying to pick up the pieces to rebuild what once was... only to find out, some pieces are missing, some are contested, while others refuse to leave the ground. To think that many millions died for fools to give it all away. The human condition ladies and gentleman.

As for the dreams of Zircon getting parked on the U.S East Coast...

Cuba won't even lease a naval base (even if they had one, which they don't - Mariel is now a commercial enterprise) to Russia... certainly not for pocket change money with an oligarchic state. Everybody knows the sort of ally Russia can be. Not even at the height of friendly Cuban-Soviet relations did the Soviets give Cuba a defense/security pact like the U.S has with Japan or Korea. They don't forget, and they should never, ever forget. Get into the frying pan for who? Putin...

Airbornewolf wrote:

ATLASCUB wrote:Humans historically do not change.

You want "security guarantee's"? Earn them, the hard fought way. The Americans earn theirs their way (whatever your opinions of it that may be). But to beg..... how low can you fall under the veneer of "responsible politics" and "strategic patience"...

It's a failed policy. As shown today. Appeasement more often than not doesn't work - specially when dealing with Anglo-Saxons/Germans (what is history if not a guide). The Romans knew how to deal with them... take a book and read.

You mean the events in Teutoburg Forests?.....
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Teutoburg_Forest

Also, nothing wrong with trying to prevent bloodshed.
All means to talk it out must be exhausted before commiting to war.

It will wreck industries, agriculture, Economies collapse.
More importantly, troops send to war will mostly not come home. or damaged beyond repair.
Bombs will fall on civilian area's. tearing fammily's appart further.
Mothers and fathers will lose kids, Kids will become orphans.

I know it may be for some pretty hard to fathom the consequence of War...
It takes decades to recover from such losses.

Russia lost about 7.4 million civilians in world war 2.
I think they got about 8.8 million dead soldiers with god knows how many maimed for life.

I have no doubt Russia knows the price of war.
Russia does not do appeasement. it is being the adult in the room. dealing with toddlers that are playing around with fire.

Ukraine lost 7 million people in total.   The USSR lost 27 million people and that includes 18 million civilians.

ATLASCUB wrote:I think you have the roles mixed since 1991... as for quoting a cherry picked battle for jingoistic pride, please.... the short end of the stick, on average, overwhelmingly, went the other side. Civilization eventually reached the north, although considering the severity of the conflicts that have ensued since then, the white race is, relatively speaking, worst off, with a severe crisis for both identity and sustainable population growth.

You would think the Russians would know, since WW2 is so fresh, historically speaking, not to "fall for deceit", or "temptation"... but again, some fools just can't help themselves, even when their excuses for failure are mere attempts to shift the blame elsewhere..... "we were promised" "we didn't knew they were going to expand".... old fools, not only did you all knew....everybody in the god damn planet knew. But again, too much tolerance... hence all of them lived peacefully..... alive (or dead) in retirement... only left wrestle with their conscience, which obviously is of very little for such human beings..... considering all the bloodshed, and suffering that ensued.

Now you get a repeat, anyway. Not only that, you're worse off. To think that many millions died for fools to give it all away. The human condition ladies and gentleman.

As for the dreams of Zircon getting parked on the U.S East Coast...

Cuba won't even lease a naval base (even if they had one) to Russia, certainly not for pocket change money. Everybody knows the sort of ally Russia can be. Not even at the height of friendly relations did the Soviets give Cuba a security guarantee like the U.S has with Japan or Korea. They don't forget.

Nah, i think i got a pretty good understanding of what i am talking about in this case.
I kind off spend time reading a history book here and there....

Also. You see, i spend years around people with misinformed, incorrect arguements to justify agression against Russia.
Or Russia is somehow on the receiving end of the stick.
I might have what you call, "first hand experience" working with russians.

I advise you let yourself informed about the rest of your comments.
Im sure some members here will have a field day correcting you on the use of Zircon.
And the use of Cuba as a base. Might have something to do with something called that starts with A and ends with D.
Not to mention about what an great ally the U.S is, and how Japan and South Korea is experiencing U.S foreign troops interacting with its own populations.

Also, if you try to render judgement here on the soviet WW2 veterans/legacy on this forum. You really came to the wrong place to do that.

Perhaps grab a few history books about the soviet union/russia and read up what their perspectives where during that time.
And how some decisions came to be from the soviet/russian perspective. perhaps Operation Unthinkable would be a good start.
Then come back here with better informed comments.

Also: courtesy of KVS: i stand corrected: Ukraine lost 7 million people in total.   The USSR lost 27 million people and that includes 18 million civilians.

The immense pressure that Russia places on the US does not come from any needed security guarantees.

Russia perfectly guarantees security for itself. The pressure Americans are feeling , that is exerted by Russia, is exerted quite simply because Russia can.

That is literally the only reason we are witnessing this geopolitical earthquakes which is shaking the west to its foundation.

The US cannot provide guarantees to its allies, that is because its military power is currently tied up totally by China.

In other words, US is in such a state of internal crisis, with its main competitor besting it in all regards, they can do nothing but cede the entire european space, in exchange for nothing but quite provocative and demoralizing behavior by Russia to the west.

The most US can offer for Poland and Baltics is token forces at the battalion level, and not even squadron level, and mercenaries.

Even those will be pulled out once China throws its weight around.

In this regard Russia escalates knowing full well, it has escalation dominance in the entire european region.

It does not need anything from the west, revenue, token guarantee, or even a handshake.

All it wants, is to show the west, how weak they're position is relative to 1991 when fukuyama declared the end of history.

What we see is that for little to no bloodshed, Russia has regathered the entire former soviet union.

Putin is the worlds foremost genius who for Russia has done, what clinton, bush, bush jr, obama, trump, and biden have not been able to do for America in exactly the same amount of time

Pretty sure I'm set on history. I did catch you being the sentimental type, the second "German" made it to the topic... caught a historical feel there for sure, obviously itching from the previous feel catch.... bringing trash to the front as if it was consequential (or rebuttal) to the point made - it wasn't obviously. Wikipedia definitely making history honchos out there.....strong and independent of mind.  

Pride gets the best of many I've been told... leading to amateur mistakes.

Also pretty sure what Zircon is. The only thing a Zircon carrying platform will be doing around the U.S East Coast (or greater Atlantic for that matter) is serving as target practice for all of the U.S Navy, and Air force, not to mention defense kickbacks for top U.S defense enterprises. To have a sort of continuous presence on the area that actually projects meaningful force instead of one-offs show the flag merry go-arounds.......well, you need a blue water Navy for that..... something Russia does not have. Russia's jewel, its sub force, is a strategic deterrent, simple as - which, obviously, is better off staying close to home, cause surface combatants are Russia's Navy weak point - you can't project force outside Russia's periphery, no matter how much propaganda is written on the matter by "Russian analysts" and the like. Russia would need bases, close to the area of interest, like Syria's Tartus.... I'm here to tell you, Cuba ain't gonna give Russia shit.... if it ever does, it will cost a lot, A LOT. If they're smart of course. They made some mistakes in the past on this front. But everyone, including lowly rank soldiers, in their criticism of the relationship, somehow point that the Soviets never gave the security pact.... you can only imagine what those with brains really think. Add to that the fact that Russia now is a Western type oligarchy to the mix and well.... the offer better be big... cause "people's solidarity" has run out.

As for the troubles and tribulations of old fools... sometimes things are as simple as they appear, and folk, in their immense hubris of wisdom try to make it more complicated than it really is. "Getting caught in the moment types" making decisions of historical consequences - simply fools. The facts remain.

Fun times ahead.... cause bluffs are easy to call out. The question is, is this one of them or will the threats be so harmless as to be inconsequential. Obviously Russia will make their moves, and in their propaganda, official or from "independent" scribes, make it seem like monumental earth shifts but independent observers know better... really hard to find them though, on both sides.

ATLASCUB wrote:Pretty sure I'm set on history. I did catch you being the sentimental type, the second "German" made it to the topic... caught a historical feel there for sure.... bringing trash to the front as if it was consequential (or rebuttal) to the point made - it wasn't obviously. Wikipedia definitely making history honchos out there.....strong and independent of mind.

Pride, gets the best of many I've been told... leading to amateur mistakes.


As for the troubles and tribulations of old fools... sometimes things are as simple as they appear, and folk, in their immense hubris of wisdom try to make it more complicated than it really is. The facts remain. Fun times ahead.... cause bluffs are easy to call out. The question is, is this one of them.

I really spend a minute thinking of an reasonable response to this...
...but i came to the conclusion there is no point discussing with people that make assumptions that are dead wrong, and got the ammount of worldview that would fit on a single penny.
And lack any form of self-reflection in their own arguements.

Sure... thing. Just stop catching feelings if you want anyone to take you seriously, ever.... and wikipedia history lessons... really....

I guess I should know better as the average idiot on the net amounts to billions... law of averages applies.

ATLASCUB wrote:Sure... thing. Just stop catching feelings if you want anyone to take you seriously, ever.... and wikipedia history lessons... really....

I guess I should know better as the average idiot on the net amounts to billions... law of averages applies.

You sound like those Iranians and Palestinians who have been getting all butthurt since 2015 because Russia wasn't willing to fight their wars for them

But I'm not them. Pretty proud of my kin actually, rough bumps and all. They can actually stand tall still, while everyone else crumbled under pressure from the masters with the whip. Some even beg... "mighty, big and powerful" as they pose..... "size doesn't matter" cliché fitting perfectly here, even if imperfect as all cliches.

Kinda funny how so many continue to try to pin my nationality down to use that against me somehow... even with all the hints I've dropped around..... funny to see.

You would think a Serbian would have the biggest gripe of all as Yugoslavia got eaten by the wolves for the mere fact of what that nation and its associations meant to the empire, and its "EU" wolves and their grandiose EU plan..... while  a druken fool like Yeltsin was sending his man to Washington. All Yugoslavia had to do was become a docile puppet like Poland, with a comprador elite reaping off the EU budget....

Do you buy their bullshit that Russia was too weak to do anything about it? That they didn't know with ample advance? Or do you simply accept the fate of your people as "we had it coming".... "it's better this way".... the usual babble from those irreparably broken by the act...all the violence, and bloodshed.

You know what ....I don't want to know... cause any answer will only make the picture of you worse than it already is. Not the first time I encounter you around these parts, as I'm sure you know. I guess you couldn't contain ignoring me any longer. It usually ends one away... somehow you expected different for just a second of your time.

nomadski wrote:

If an automated system could be built , that took the human element out of the equation . Then I think it makes no difference , what kind of advance warning is needed . Since a machine can decide if Nuke explosion occurred , and then automatically launched counter strike .

The decison has to be made BEFORE an explosion. And in terms of auto systems. They had one. And if it were not for this man, that decided it was false alarm. None of us would be here today:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanislav_Petrov

ATLASCUB wrote:Too much koolaid in this thread....

Wunderwaffe that has yet to be deployed and become operational on a limited number of platforms won't make up for the lost strategic depth of the last 40 years, won't make up for lost allegiances, it won't make up for slow industrial production of heavy military hardware relative to the competition's output, and it won't make up for the disparity in both manpower, land and resources.

"Quantity has a quality of its own"...

Getting drunk in propaganda is an alternative nonetheless.

the Saudi Patriot were not even able to stop simple Iranian drones. No wonder everyone wants S400. Even Turkey gave up the F-35 for S400. Why? Because they don't trust the USA. Look at the Olympic boycott. Only Canada, Australia and UK joined the coaltion of the desperate. Even the Japanese who are STRONG US allies and HATE the Chinese did not join. Not even the Koreans!!! only 4 of the 5 eyes!!! Trust of the US even from its allies had never been weaker.

What gripes would serbia have with the failure of multiethnic invention of communist suicide squad?

That the corpse of yugoslavia was finally buried, and Serb identity could finally exist without the weight of the minority rule was a just reward in itself,

The downing of F117 permanently laid to rest the fable of stealth,

While kosovo justified just about everything that took place around 2015.

Keeping the krajina showed the limit of "nato power". The fact they could not take the sovereignty away of this landlocked state really shows the limit of NATO, and even then it took all their power to bring Serbia to the negotiating table.

As for Russia projecting power around the periphery it has done much more including installing the orange president of America , permanent basing on Tobruk Libya which was not done in heyday of USSR, grabbing PVDSA for nothing which is worth more than worthless sugarcane Cuba , the diamond mines of Africa supplying Yakutian jewelers, and what else? Well Iran has prostrated itself to the Russian Czar basically , with Hamadan given as rent free real estate to use anytime towel wearers get punched in the face by whitey out west, and Syria is the latest arab contestant to get itself almost hung with Russia rescuing Assad and getting nice pads for VKS and VMF rent free as well.

Hmmm as for showing the flag not sure that's needed when US talks of Russia non stop placing the orange emperor in power, I mean when you have that kind of power , 11 carriers just wont do

Not bad for drunk fools

Let's not even start on christmas present of Central Asia by UK, Turkey, and USA,

But seriously , No more free gifts for pygmies in latin america, Africa, or asia, if you need help from Russia give something in return like Sudan or Myanmar.

Ass cash or gas, noone rides free

ATLASCUB wrote:But I'm not them. Pretty proud of my kin actually, rough bumps and all. They can actually stand tall still, while everyone else crumbled under pressure from the masters with the whip. Some even beg... "mighty, big and powerful" as they pose..... "size doesn't matter" cliché fitting perfectly here, even if imperfect as all cliches.

You would think a Serbian would have the biggest gripe of all as Yugoslavia got eaten by the wolves for the mere fact of what that nation and its associations meant to the empire, and its "EU" wolves..... while  a druken fool like Yeltsin was sending his man to Washington. All Yugoslavia had to do was become a docile puppet like Poland, with a comprador elite reaping off the EU budget......

Do you buy their bullshit that Russia was to weak to do anything about it? Or do you simply accept the fate of your people as "we had it coming".... "it's better this way".... the usual babble from those irreparably broken by the act.

You know what ....I don't want to know... cause any answer will only make the picture of you worse than it already is. Not the first time I encounter you around these parts, as I'm sure you know. I guess you couldn't contain ignoring me any longer. It usually ends on away... somehow you expected different for just a second of your time.

Seriously kid, you pretend to know every one of us and how we work internally.

it is obvious You are just trying to get an rise out of us, while we all read your comments and get an less positive impression of you.

Go put your stuffed animals in an circle in front of you. And go play doctor Freud with them.
Perhaps they will enjoy your role-playing and the theatrics.

the US navy wont be intercepting zircons, not when its GBI cannot intercept pre planned re entry of satellite and missiles.

US is lagging badly behind Russia in that technology I dont think theyl have a scramjet functioning for next decade, and as far as an s 500 equivalent, well Tusken raiders are hitting saudi patriots with ease, so I would not worry about US navy intercepting anything other than COVID

The two bit troll from god knows what troll farm in Siberia (all the usual propaganda points verbatim in followed up responses - textbook).... somehow trying to spin that Serbians are better off this way....

The wheels coming off for sure.... You know the pay-rate ain't good for the return.

Pretty sure your average Serbian will agree about their optimistic future, or that the end justified the means.

"Golly gee, my brother and aunt had to die for a better future....we never really liked our neighbors really...."

"Plus, the Americans and Germans deemed it so and they're the wisest. Even Russian trolls online agree."

Hec, if we go down that route, then maybe Russia shouldn't fight the masterplan of British/German old to destroy Russia and make several smaller states out of it. It worked so well in Yugoslavia, why couldn't it work in Russia? After all, Russia is still a multi-ethnic state? It would be for the better right?      

How many rubles are these trolls getting paid to write such useless garbage? Just want to know the ongoing rate... won't harm a fly, as this sub has low exposure.

Russian losses during ww2 are around 31m, not 27m (officially).

Those who got access to russian achieves have stated it's even more than 31m, in the end, the true extent will never be known.

ATLASCUB wrote:The two bit troll from god knows what troll farm in Siberia (all the usual propaganda points verbatim in followed up responses - textbook).... somehow trying to spin that Serbians are better off this way....

The wheels coming off for sure.... You know the pay-rate ain't good for the return.

Pretty sure your average Serbian will agree about their optimistic future, or that the end justified the means.

"Golly gee, my brother and aunt had to die for a better future....we never really liked our neighbors really...."

"Plus, the Americans and Germans deemed it so and they're the wisest. Even Russian trolls online agree."

Hec, if we go down that route, then maybe Russia shouldn't fight the masterplan of British/German old to destroy Russia and make several smaller states out of it. It worked so well in Yugoslavia, why couldn't it work in Russia? After all, Russia is still a multi-ethnic state? It would be for the better right?      

How many rubles are these trolls getting paid to write such useless garbage? Just want to know the ongoing rate... won't harm a fly, as this sub has low exposure.

Hey genius... that plan to destroy Russia and create small statelets...  ahem the multiethnic state that was enslaving Russia... was called... hint hint...

USSR... it resulted in 15 republics breaking apart , where have you been last 20 years? 

And it did break apart and collapse, slava Bogu (thank God), maybe some around here cry about it, sure it was a tragedy, from a humanitarian perspective. 

But for Russia it has been a boon just like it was for Serbia. 

They're not deadlifting the bosnians, slovenes, montenegrins, or other parasites

And Russia is not carrying around Baltic states, Ukrainians,  armenians, azerbaijanis, or other leeches who live off the residual glory of USSR. Now Russia sticks the boot in their asses for free. 

As for the NATO bombing campaign deliberate force killing aunts and brothers they were bombing mostly bosniaks of the crescent moon variety, but I digress...no they did not like their neighbors. That's what happens when you pit muslims and Christian's together in a state with very different ethno history. You get george floyd 2020, with real shooting and ethnic cleansing. 

It was a tragedy nonetheless but hey for 400 aircraft, 5000 men, several cruisers, not bad what serbs did

Killing several mirage 2000 , spanish LGBT f18, f117, several helos and other downed jets 

 the loss of the krajina will be paid in full by Bosnians of the crescent moon variety, and Moscow is there already asking for the receipt. 
Republika srpska got the czars backing, so you know shiz is gonna go down there soon. 

Anyway back to topic , Russia talking dirty to secretary Sherman the way gaddaffi would have liked to

Pretty sure Russia can be sliced up into more tiny pieces. The more pieces shaved off, the better the Russians will be, less deadweight. Siberia with the "mogloids" as a new nation, some slices for China. Caucus and other areas independent  - too much Turk/Islamist blood in them etc.... not needed...



You like that one...

Maybe this one..



Trolls these days.

Trust that there are maps of this at Langley and Vauxhall Cross. The real ones, should it ever happen.