Kurganets & Boomerang Discussions Thread #1

alexZam wrote:Height reference...

You can almost stand straight inside, well not me but someone with 1.7m could, probably.

Im not sure how the APS of T-15 works but not necessarily the angle of sensor is indicative of
its limitations or not..  if it is true ,that Armata will share information between each other.. so the sensors of any second tank or Kuganets or Boomeran ,near can provide enough info for the final engagement..

We also need to know when the interception of projectiles is done.. if it is done far from the tank.. before is perpendicular to the tank, it doesn't need to look upward if can intercept the projectile right at 20 meters before impact. in that case the missile will be more in a 45 degree angle of the turret. more or less. so if this is the case.. that interception happens early that it reach the tank.. then even a single tank with sensors in the way they are in T-15 will be more than enough.


Another thing that people needs to be aware.. is the guidance of top attack weapons.. like
Javelins or Spike missiles..( ignoring the wired short range one).. the long range spike and javelins use Radio communications.. the missile guidance is by radio and it have a very weak
antenna..that can be jammed by any dedicated counter electronics hardware . So effectively can blind the missile control remote guidance.. in the same way drones can be blinded.. Lazer guidance in the other hand needs smoke and that the tank move. but so far mostly Russia use such missiles. if the top attack weapons are neutralized with counter electronics ,then it will be even better than an interception.. because the missile completely miss and keep flying over the tank.

contrary to if the missile explode near the tank it can damage its antenna and cause some damage to its sensors even if it do not impact the tank and explode near it.

in another question..
Are the official specs of Armata released and the official configuration?
I read somewhere of 40mm+ guns and up to 100mm+ but now is only 30mm at best in some models.

Strizh wrote:

KoTeMoRe wrote:

Strizh wrote:

Werewolf wrote:

Strizh wrote:^Great again a system which «Не имеющий аналогов в мире» and will work as good as smoke screens against modern ATGMs...
What a crap, promised an APS system build a smoke screen launcher

Well, such a system will break guidance of any IIR/IR guided missile, but Laser Beam riders are still a threat and they easily to manufactor and much cheaper, i hope they will change that later, shouldn't be hard to develop APS vertical launchers right where the vertical smoke grenade launchers are with the T-80#UM1 Arena Radar pointing upwards, like it was seen on T-15 (which pointed forward) it should actually cover enough top hemisphere to actually deal with top attack weapons.

I seriously can't understand why they didn't implement an anti top attack APS system. And no the radars on the T15 are to low for top attack weapons, I've watched some videos and the incoming missiles are almost vertical - 80°.

A huge disappointment  

How are they Low?

See how the Trophy is implemented. It isn't low at all, it is actually prepositionned for top attack.

The radar has a too low angle for recognizing top attack missiles:

"Top attack" @ 00:45.

Nice javelin video.. its important to notice that the TV camera.. will not work in a heavy
counter electronics environment ,the operator of the javelin will see nothing on tv. so it will be impossible for the operator to hit anything if the signals are jammed.. the missile will simply fly over the tank as if the operator turned off the control remote.   and the tank will be 100% unharmed.  but it might fall in civilian house near.. so the ideal way will be a mix of counter electronic and interception away-ofthe-tank ,from a safe distance and away of coalition path. 

Apache Hellfires missiles in the other hand have semi active laser and active homing guidance
in such cases smoke and electromagnetic pulse and decoys can blind the missile ,before APS interception. This means that if the system works well ,the armata will not be at risk of direct lethal hit.. fortunately Armata can target helicopters like apache before they are at their firing range which is 8km.  A pantsir near will shut down an apache 20km away. or a manpand.

Zivo wrote:

Strizh wrote:

KoTeMoRe wrote:

Strizh wrote:

Werewolf wrote:

Strizh wrote:^Great again a system which «Не имеющий аналогов в мире» and will work as good as smoke screens against modern ATGMs...
What a crap, promised an APS system build a smoke screen launcher

Well, such a system will break guidance of any IIR/IR guided missile, but Laser Beam riders are still a threat and they easily to manufactor and much cheaper, i hope they will change that later, shouldn't be hard to develop APS vertical launchers right where the vertical smoke grenade launchers are with the T-80#UM1 Arena Radar pointing upwards, like it was seen on T-15 (which pointed forward) it should actually cover enough top hemisphere to actually deal with top attack weapons.

I seriously can't understand why they didn't implement an anti top attack APS system. And no the radars on the T15 are to low for top attack weapons, I've watched some videos and the incoming missiles are almost vertical - 80°.

A huge disappointment  

How are they Low?

See how the Trophy is implemented. It isn't low at all, it is actually prepositionned for top attack.

The radar has a too low angle for recognizing top attack missiles:

"Top attack" @ 00:45.

That is how most top attack weapons work they still hit the frontal turret armor if tank iis looking towards the launching plattform. Like the picture of Abrams tank that got hit from Hellfire a "Top attack" weapon and hit the right front turret array.

The KAZ/APS launchers on Armata,Kurganetz and Boomerang do cover the top sphere with the slight angled Tubes and casettes so i am certain they can deal with top attack weapons, unless those blue marked casettes are something entirely different.

Nice javelin video.. its important to notice that the TV camera.. will not work in a heavy
counter electronics environment ,the operator of the javelin will see nothing on tv. so it will be impossible for the operator to hit anything if the signals are jammed.. the missile will simply fly over the tank as if the operator turned off the control remote. Cool and the tank will be 100% unharmed. but it might fall in civilian house near.. so the ideal way will be a mix of counter electronic and interception away-ofthe-tank ,from a safe distance and away of coalition path.

Apache Hellfires missiles in the other hand have semi active laser and active homing guidance
in such cases smoke and electromagnetic pulse and decoys can blind the missile ,before APS interception. This means that if the system works well ,the armata will not be at risk of direct lethal hit.. fortunately Armata can target helicopters like apache before they are at their firing range which is 8km. A pantsir near will shut down an apache 20km away. or a manpand.

That is not a javelin but a Spike ATGM and the TV link will work since it is wire guided, no jamming there at least for relative short distance.
The limits for that Spike are that it is wire guided and the wire will snap if it is launched over obstacles over specific range.

Werewolf wrote:

I Think these "gills" on front side will be coming of, they will surely be driven against both trees and Buildings and are not field practical. Otherwise i am really impressed, good thing thay got rid of the 100mm.

If it is wired ,it cannot be jammed , and the missile can be fired behind a rock so the operator
is safe.. don't need line of sight . its confusing the wiki info because there are many versions..
in any case it can be intercepted by any aps with top attack defense.. and apparently the Spike
missile speed is slow and travel a very predictable path.. Smoke grenade and heat decoys can trick the missile and the wire shuld leave a major trace of the location is launched..  but not sure
how can a missile be wired for 3k-5km.. thats looks insane .. in any case the more complex is the missile electronic the more vulnerable is to Electromagnetic Pulse ,if you know were is the operator hiding, and emp charge will neutralize the control remote..also  Pantsirs will have a field day with spike.. and tank with APS protection too..  Still is quite deadly weapon without the modern defense capabilities.. of previous tanks.

Update here the speed of spike..

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/israel/spike.htm

The missile, travelling at the relatively slow speed of between 150 meters and 200 meters per second, can hit targets up to 7.5km away.  

It have a similar speed of an RPG-7... which terminal speed is 295 meters per second. so is not hard to intercept missile..is like any other Rpg-7 interception but with high angle of attack. it will be good target practice for a pantsir gun, but also for any APS . Javeline missiles in the other hand are quite fast but still can be intercepted. The more nasty one are hellfire
lazer guided , fast ,with active home seeker.. still can be intercepted if the APS see it..
In any case if it is true that Afganistan APS in armata can intercept hypersonic missiles..
and Sabot rounds , then in theory nothing can stop the active defense.. at least in single projectile attacks.

Vann7 wrote:If it is wired ,it cannot be jammed , and the missile can be fired behind a rock so the operator
is safe.. don't need line of sight . its confusing the wiki info because there are many versions..
in any case it can be intercepted by any aps with top attack defense.. and apparently the Spike
missile speed is slow and travel a very predictable path.. Smoke grenade and heat decoys can trick the missile and the wire shuld leave a major trace of the location is launched..  but not sure
how can a missile be wired for 3k-5km.. thats looks insane .. in any case the more complex is the missile electronic the more vulnerable is to Electromagnetic Pulse ,if you know were is the operator hiding, and emp charge will neutralize the control remote..also  Pantsirs will have a field day with spike.. and tank with APS protection too..  Still is quite deadly weapon without the modern defense capabilities.. of previous tanks.

Update here the speed of spike..

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/israel/spike.htm

The missile, travelling at the relatively slow speed of between 150 meters and 200 meters per second, can hit targets up to 7.5km away.  

It have a similar speed of an RPG-7... which terminal speed is 295 meters per second. so is not hard to intercept missile..is like any other Rpg-7 interception but with high angle of attack. it will be good target practice for a pantsir gun, but also for any APS . Javeline  missiles in the other hand are quite fast but  still can be intercepted. The more nasty one are hellfire
lazer guided , fast ,with active home seeker.. still can be intercepted if the APS see it..
In any case if it is true that Afganistan APS in armata can intercept hypersonic missiles..  
and Sabot rounds , then in theory nothing can stop the active defense.. at least in single projectile attacks.

The idea with Spike was that it offerred a plethora of options. Be that under the guise of the Tamuz or the airborne version or the infantry version. It allows infantry to use the spike as a jack of all trades, from improvised artillery to improvised suicide drone to cheap PGM. That's why current NATO std armies are foaming to the mouth with it. It is however not the golden or silver bullet. It is a system that has its shortcomings (notably the CLU has issues with heat sensors under specific temperatures).

If the current countermeasures are aimed at the known threats then the T-14 might have a problem as soon as it deploys.

The Spike isn't the Javelin and isn't any thing that the Bill-2 couldn't do. 20 years ago.

KoTeMoRe wrote:

Strizh wrote:

KoTeMoRe wrote:

Strizh wrote:

Werewolf wrote:

Strizh wrote:^Great again a system which «Не имеющий аналогов в мире» and will work as good as smoke screens against modern ATGMs...
What a crap, promised an APS system build a smoke screen launcher

Well, such a system will break guidance of any IIR/IR guided missile, but Laser Beam riders are still a threat and they easily to manufactor and much cheaper, i hope they will change that later, shouldn't be hard to develop APS vertical launchers right where the vertical smoke grenade launchers are with the T-80#UM1 Arena Radar pointing upwards, like it was seen on T-15 (which pointed forward) it should actually cover enough top hemisphere to actually deal with top attack weapons.

I seriously can't understand why they didn't implement an anti top attack APS system. And no the radars on the T15 are to low for top attack weapons, I've watched some videos and the incoming missiles are almost vertical - 80°.

A huge disappointment  

How are they Low?

See how the Trophy is implemented. It isn't low at all, it is actually prepositionned for top attack.

The radar has a too low angle for recognizing top attack missiles:

Do actually understand that top attack missiles need to be fired at some point? How do you think the Merkava does it to point the tank vs the source of fire? It's called a radar...

And whole APS system is a big piece of shit! That's it, no need to defend useless crap.
The most important part of the new vehicle family was the APS system and they failed miserably.

Zivo wrote:

Strizh wrote:

KoTeMoRe wrote:

Strizh wrote:

Werewolf wrote:

Strizh wrote:^Great again a system which «Не имеющий аналогов в мире» and will work as good as smoke screens against modern ATGMs...
What a crap, promised an APS system build a smoke screen launcher

Well, such a system will break guidance of any IIR/IR guided missile, but Laser Beam riders are still a threat and they easily to manufactor and much cheaper, i hope they will change that later, shouldn't be hard to develop APS vertical launchers right where the vertical smoke grenade launchers are with the T-80#UM1 Arena Radar pointing upwards, like it was seen on T-15 (which pointed forward) it should actually cover enough top hemisphere to actually deal with top attack weapons.

I seriously can't understand why they didn't implement an anti top attack APS system. And no the radars on the T15 are to low for top attack weapons, I've watched some videos and the incoming missiles are almost vertical - 80°.

A huge disappointment  

How are they Low?

See how the Trophy is implemented. It isn't low at all, it is actually prepositionned for top attack.

The radar has a too low angle for recognizing top attack missiles:

"Top attack" @ 00:45.

20year old top attack weapons, I've attached a picture of a top attack javelin missile which is actually an old system!

The most modern tanks will be protected with most modern air defense. Those top attack ATGMs like Spike and Javelin fly high and slow and are easy targets for air defense. Also modern battlefield surveillance radars will easily locate the fire position of ATGMs and bring artillery fire or Tos fire on their position, not to say fire from those tanks and IFVs.

medo wrote:The most modern tanks will be protected with most modern air defense. Those top attack ATGMs like Spike and Javelin fly high and slow and are easy targets for air defense. Also modern battlefield surveillance radars will easily locate the fire position of ATGMs and bring artillery fire or Tos fire on their position, not to say fire from those tanks and IFVs.

As I said before the moment the Javelin crew fires, it lits itself up for 20X20 square of shrapnel. The Javelin has this huge issue a part from the obvious signature, it is the relative slow speed, once you've fired and the radar has detected you, the target you're aiming at has at least 2 seconds because of the launch sequence to react. Given the limitations of the IR sight, things get more worrisome if you're a Javelin gunner.

medo wrote:The most modern tanks will be protected with most modern air defense. Those top attack ATGMs like Spike and Javelin fly high and slow and are easy targets for air defense. Also modern battlefield surveillance radars will easily locate the fire position of ATGMs and bring artillery fire or Tos fire on their position, not to say fire from those tanks and IFVs.

Well I really doubt that air defense will be effective against ATGM teams. Not today and not in Conventional all out war. ATGM systems are cheap compared to modern tanks or air defense. There will always be attrition. I would rather trust APS systems than shorad.
Spyke has a interesting version where spotter directs the fire and missile can be shot from nlos.

Stealthflanker wrote:Well.. looking at those vertically mounted smoke grenade discharger, i'll assume that protection against top attack munition is achieved by softkill means.

Those smoke grenades carry some sort of composition that act as decoy for IR seeker.

Money robbed - smoke grenade launchers sold as soft kill APS.

Stealthflanker wrote:

Strizh wrote:

Money robbed - smoke grenade launchers sold as soft kill APS.

God knows what inside those grenades.

Any reason why it can't contain any obscurants ?

Why are people ignoring the APS casettes angled and implemented in the turret? All vehicles have them T-15,Kurganetz 25 and T-14 (not sure about Boomerang little interest).

Stealthflanker wrote:

Strizh wrote:

Money robbed - smoke grenade launchers sold as soft kill APS.

God knows what inside those grenades.

Any reason why it can't contain any obscurants ?

No simple smoke grenades:
http://www.niistali.ru/products/nauka/protection/uplook_protection/
(please use google translate)

Strizh wrote:

And whole APS system is a big piece of shit! That's it, no need to defend useless crap.
The most important part of the new vehicle family was the APS system and they failed miserably.

LOL what a troll , you know nothing how the APS system in armata works.. you not even know
if the products show in victory parade are the final products or just early prototypes ,just for
having something quick early preview of the tanks..  and already you are judging the system
as failure.. lol  Go away troll with your Israeli propaganda crap..


We don't even know if your Israeli crap can actually target anything upwards since never have been proved in combat by a Russian top attack missile.   How can you pass final judgement on early preview of something ,you don't know absolutely nothing!!!  and That website do not
mention how Armata defense works.. the export version of anything the Russian army use is always inferior ,not even India or China get Russia domestic hardware technology for their nation defense.you will never get a state of the art defense of Russia army or any technology of their armed forces,in a shopping catalog online..    What an idiot...you simply knows nothing dude.. Disliking something is one thing because you have doubts.. but claiming you know how Armata defenses works ,and that it fail ,while knowing NOTHING of the tank is Moronic.

Vann you should retract and appologize the personal attacks/insults at once, i probably not entirely agree with Strizh's assessments either but you are disturbing what otherwise is a very interesting discussion with no insults that i have seen until yours. If not i will report you.

As for these vehicles, there are folks far more knowledgeable on the subject than me, but i can say that assessing how strong or weak or capable the armour and protection of these vehicles is just by looking at pictures is largely a futile exercise, so that should be kept in mind. Probably it's even more futile than assessing an aircraft from pictures.

Vann7 wrote:

Strizh wrote:

And whole APS system is a big piece of shit! That's it, no need to defend useless crap.
The most important part of the new vehicle family was the APS system and they failed miserably.

LOL what a troll , you know nothing how the APS system in armata works.. you not even know
if the products show in victory parade are the final products or just early prototypes ,just for
having something quick early preview of the tanks..  and already you are judging the system
as failure.. lol  Go away troll with your Israeli propaganda crap..


We don't even know if your Israeli crap can actually target anything upwards since never have been proved in combat by a Russian top attack missile.   How can you pass final judgement on early preview of something ,you don't know absolutely nothing!!!  and That website do not
mention how Armata defense works.. the export version of anything the Russian army use is always inferior ,not even India or China get Russia domestic hardware technology for their nation defense.you will never get a state of the art defense of Russia army or any technology of their armed forces,in a shopping catalog online..    What an idiot...you simply knows nothing dude..  Disliking something is one thing because you have doubts.. but claiming you know how Armata defenses works ,and that it fail ,while knowing  NOTHING of the tank is Moronic.

The tank has:
360° coverage: with tubes + smoke grenade launchers
Top coverage: no tubes + smoke grenade launchers

That means (in any case) that the top is less defended than the sides as on top we lack the tubes.

Strizh wrote:

Vann7 wrote:

Strizh wrote:

And whole APS system is a big piece of shit! That's it, no need to defend useless crap.
The most important part of the new vehicle family was the APS system and they failed miserably.

LOL what a troll , you know nothing how the APS system in armata works.. you not even know
if the products show in victory parade are the final products or just early prototypes ,just for
having something quick early preview of the tanks..  and already you are judging the system
as failure.. lol  Go away troll with your Israeli propaganda crap..


We don't even know if your Israeli crap can actually target anything upwards since never have been proved in combat by a Russian top attack missile.   How can you pass final judgement on early preview of something ,you don't know absolutely nothing!!!  and That website do not
mention how Armata defense works.. the export version of anything the Russian army use is always inferior ,not even India or China get Russia domestic hardware technology for their nation defense.you will never get a state of the art defense of Russia army or any technology of their armed forces,in a shopping catalog online..    What an idiot...you simply knows nothing dude..  Disliking something is one thing because you have doubts.. but claiming you know how Armata defenses works ,and that it fail ,while knowing  NOTHING of the tank is Moronic.

The tank has:
360° coverage: with tubes + smoke grenade launchers
Top   coverage: no tubes + smoke grenade launchers

That means (in any case) that the top is less defended than the sides as on top we lack the tubes.

Which part of you know nothing of how the tanks works ,you don't get? You don't know all
there is to know of the tank.. you not even know if the tank in Victory parade is an early showdown of the tank but not the final product. I will wait for full disclosure of Defense ministry of tank capabilities.. and whether is final already or the Victory parade models are early prototypes . we don't know.. Rogozin or defense minister Shoygu for sure will reveal more information of the tanks about its capabilities and how it works.  if not victory parade .then
in the arm expo 2015 later in the year ,we should know.

What we do know is that they have been showing the Armata with missing parts since last week,and gradually updating them.. so i hope by Victory Parade they tell us all or some insiders
tell us. I cannot believe they will release a tank that fails as you claim.. otherwise they will just
not release it at all and delay it until get it right. Is not like Russia will need armatas any time soon.. their T-90s and airforce and missile forces will work well for any future conflict they could face.

Strizh, you make claims about APS coverage based on photos. Have you examined that vehicle in person? If not please STFU. Just because you do not see something on a photo does not mean that aforementioned something is not already there and in very large quantities.

Gunner sight on a T-14 turret for example is covered with a piece of metal. And yet, no one is questioning existence of a gunner sight.

Why shouldn't top APS system be covered or integrated in a turret? APS radars are there, hence rest of it is there too. And your urge to have visual contact with it has no relevance whatsoever on it's existence.

I cannot see bullets in a handgun. That does not mean that handgun is empty.