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    PAK FA, T-50: News #1

    havok
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    PAK FA, T-50: News #1 - Page 33 Empty Re: PAK FA, T-50: News #1

    Post  havok Sun Mar 24, 2013 1:51 pm

    GarryB wrote:Unless the object is a perfect sphere there is no real value in such a number.

    Different angles will result in different levels of visibility.
    Of course there is a utility in having such a value. A sphere serves as a baseline reference for measurement. What you do not understand is that against a fairly constant background, a complex body with its diversity in signal amplitude will have those signals in a cluster and if we can distinguish any pattern from this cluster, it will help in data processing of low radar observable bodies.

    For example...RAdar Detection of Agitated Metal (RADAM) algorithm...

    http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1977stan.reptS....B
    It has been observed that the radar returns from moving multielement metal targets often exhibit an unexpected modulation that has both random (or noise-like) and semicoherent components. One possible mechanism for producing this effect is the modification of the current distribution on the target that results when electrical contacts between target elements are altered intermittently by the forces associated with target motion. Such intermittent-contact modulation must be considered in the design of a radar for detecting or identifying a target exhibiting this effect. Depending on the application, the observer may wish to enhance or suppress the observation of the effect, or it may be important that the effect itself be enhanced or suppressed in the object being observed. To accomplish any of these, the effect must be well understood, and we have therefore undertaken a program of research to study the radar detection of agitated metals (RADAM). This report summarizes our progress during the second year of the program. The overall objectives of our RADAM research program are to (1) identify and isolate the physical processes and mechanisms that contribute to a RADAM signature, (2) identify and explain important recognizable features of the signature, and (3) determine means for separating the significant identifying components of the signature from nonmeaningful components.
    To sum it up, RADAM algorithm searches for complementariness:

    1. Forming or serving as a complement; completing.

    - Top/Bottom
    - High/Low
    - Left/Right
    - Upper/Lower
    - Approach/Recede
    - One o'clock/Seven o'clock
    - Father/Mother
    - Husband/Wife
    - King/Queen

    And so on...

    For a helo rotor, if there is an approaching blade (increasing Doppler) there must be a receding blade (decreasing Doppler). RADAM algorithm would flag this set of complementary signals as 'high probability' of the target being a helo.

    Aircrafts are complex bodies that have commonalities among the diversity of designs: Pair of wings, pair of horizontal stabilators, one vertical stabilator, fuselage, cockpit, etc...

    So when we say 'true RCS value' we actually mean an aggregate of discrete signals produced by major and common radiators that even when in motion, patterns of clusters of scintillation can be discerned from background noise, provided the system is sufficiently powerful in data processing. Those patterns may not be as constant and predictable as a helo rotor and certainly RADAM algorithm will take a backseat here, but there is no denying that these patterns exist.

    In other words, you can bet your next year's salary that we already know how to detect 'stealth'. Your dismissal of this is evident that you do not know what you are talking about.

    GarryB wrote:Or perhaps a couple of small things like facts are being ignored here... first... Russian ground radars are better than US ones, the PAK FAs in question are prototypes that aren't fully stealthy yet, and thirdly the PAK FAs are operating in restricted airspace where it doesn't matter if they don't appear on radar screens. Telemetry data is coming from equipment inside the aircraft themselves... there is little need for external tracking.
    That is a laugh. We got plenty of Russian stuff out in the ranges in Nevada. We know how 'good' they are. But of course, you are free to believe whatever you like.

    GarryB wrote:When Clarke Kent takes off his glasses and becomes Superman no one seems to recognise him... except everyone in the audience... the same as when every Batman character puts on their mask... of course I admit I wouldn't recognise you with or without a mask.

    No it wont... If you are Batman standing in the middle of a group of people working out who you are does not require the careful analysis of anyone, they just need to shoot the guy in the mask and when he is dead take off the mask.
    You just totally missed the point...

    No surprise here...
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    PAK FA, T-50: News #1 - Page 33 Empty Re: PAK FA, T-50: News #1

    Post  Mindstorm Sun Mar 24, 2013 3:35 pm

    Mindstorm wrote:It is a RADAR REFLECTOR with almost isotropic RCS magnification capabilities ,clear ?

    It NEED to be irradiated in order to work, clear ?

    havok: Clear to me...

    From what you've written is perfectly clear to me that the thing is absolutely NOT clear to you....



    havok: Say what...??? Enemy radar? Why would we want to fly the F-22 into combat with radar enhancers?


    You may know how the luneburg lens WORK, but it is clear to me that you do not know how it is EMPLOYED. There is a difference


    The central problem is that ,in order to make even only a simple assumption about the supposed EMPLOYMENT and concept of operation of a particular system, someone must have totally clear its WORKING PRINCIPLES.....




    Mindstorm wrote:...and would be, therefore, absolutely incapable to "hide" actual RCS of F-22...

    havok: Sure it can. The lens works by reflecting the seeking radar's signal back to source direction. Since the -22's RCS is so low, any reflected signals received by the seeking radar is an AGGREGATE of the -22's low RCS and of the lens' reflecting the seeking radar's signals, effectively masking the -22's true RCS value.

    In marine safety, a small boat would install a mast corner reflector so radar equipped larger vessels could see it. Why? Because the small boat's RCS is too low or unknown. So with a corner reflector, the small boat's RCS, which is unknown to the larger vessel, is effectively masked by the corner reflector.

    Like I said, you may know how the luneburg lens works, but not how it is employed.


    Probably if you would be so fair to quote entirely mine assertion ,from which you've extracted the up-cited part, you would obtain -and produce in the casual reader- an idea totally different about mine true line of thought on the subject in question.
    I will do it for you :

    What i believe and know is that the placement of this reflector render it totally incapable to be even only illuminated by enemy radar in themost critical aspect projections of the aircraft and would be, therefore, absolutely incapable to "hide" actual RCS of F-22 where that most count

    Any better ?




    Mindstorm wrote:A EF Thyphoon , a Rafale, a MiG-31BM or an SU-35S in a typical "nose on" vector of interception with an F-22 equipped with this lens would obtain Raptor's RCS totally non influenced by it .

    havok: No, they would not. The device's location sufficiently reflect JUST ENOUGH to mask the -22's true RCS.

    Reflect "just enough" ?
    Mmh....Very interesting definition for high scattering regime Luneburg lens interaction for this specific placement and for the aspect ratio taken into examination.





    Well: short question , short reply :


    Su-35S's radar in a nose on interception vector on this F-22.
    The device's location sufficiently reflect ....."JUST ENOUGH"..... to mask the -22's true RCS ?

    YES or NOT ?


    PAK FA, T-50: News #1 - Page 33 China-J-20-stealth-fighter-aircraft-01


    MiG-31BM's radar in an high altitude interception of those F-22s.
    The device's location sufficiently reflect ....."JUST ENOUGH"..... to mask the -22's true RCS ?

    YES or NOT ?



    PAK FA, T-50: News #1 - Page 33 F22_raptor_usairforce


    An EF Thypoon or Rafale's radar illuminate ,in an exercise this F-22 in this perfectly head-on aspect.
    The device's location sufficiently reflect ....."JUST ENOUGH"..... to mask the -22's true RCS ?

    YES or NOT ?


    PAK FA, T-50: News #1 - Page 33 F-22a_raptor_42_of_81





    Please...You are still struggling with it...


    Laughing Laughing Laughing

    What penetrated in the West, revolutioning and literally "allowing" the same establishment of the modern scientific community of sector in the US and the ultimate realization of all theirs "stealth" platforms up to today ,was a very little....and perfectly controlled Very Happy .....part of the Theoretic Physics achievements of Soviet In. 108 obtained more than 20 years before .

    Even today more than a person in the US sector would be caught by several cold shivers becoming aware of the percentage of information ,concepts and results totally erased also in the four versions of the unique work (among the many of In. 108) "allowed" for publication on which them put theirs hands on Laughing

    USA has a true wonderful engineering sector, with the historically best applicative computing hardware basis and precision machinery of the planet ; this ,together with very massive investments aimed at the goal, has allowed mass production of similar high cost LO platforms also in years where the making technological level don't permitted theirs realization at an acceptable and cost-efficient level for any other nation (including the same where the founding principles had been established).

    But if we talk of the Theoretic Physics understanding of the phenomenon involved and the entire gamut of solutions to the problem explored and validated, our domestic Institutes of the field are on a totally different league in respect to any other on this planet.



    Please...f-16.net is populated by LOTS of people with real aviation experience. Far more than we can say for this playground.
    rfrf
    Oh yes ,the place where ,since several years, people continue to talk in circle of MiG-29 parameters, performances and capabilities on the basis of the......comical, demented theories of a disturbed poster calling himself....Fulcrumflyer !!

    Oh yes , real aviation experience Laughing Laughing

    This is the place where people still believe, in 2013, that the unlucky and full of comical technical mistakes private speech of Col Fornof's at the "Daedalians" retired pilots meeting was an...official debriefing of Red Flag 2008 getting even the courage to continue to cite it as a source Razz Razz
    Here people still believe that USAF F-15s had gained the upper hand in the one vs one DACT engagement against the IAF Su-30MKI !!! Razz Razz Razz

    This is the place where people still believe that AIM-120B had 70 km engagement range ,AIM-120C 105 km and AIM-120D 170-180 km Razz Razz Razz






    havok
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    PAK FA, T-50: News #1 - Page 33 Empty Re: PAK FA, T-50: News #1

    Post  havok Sun Mar 24, 2013 3:53 pm

    Mindstorm wrote:Su-35S's radar in a nose on interception vector on this F-22.
    The device's location sufficiently reflect ....."JUST ENOUGH"..... to mask the -22's true RCS ?

    YES or NOT ?

    MiG-31BM's radar in an high altitude interception of those F-22s.
    The device's location sufficiently reflect ....."JUST ENOUGH"..... to mask the -22's true RCS ?

    YES or NOT ?

    An EF Thypoon or Rafale's radar illuminate ,in an exercise this F-22 in this perfectly head-on aspect.
    The device's location sufficiently reflect ....."JUST ENOUGH"..... to mask the -22's true RCS ?

    YES or NOT ?
    And it looks like it is still not clear to you, so I will try again...

    Your argument is based upon 'enemy radar', which is false because the F-22 WILL NOT fly into combat with enhancers installed. I do not see why this is so difficult to understand. The masking of the -22's RCS is not intentional. Repeat -- NOT INTENTIONAL. But coincidental, or a by-product of, because of the need to assist air traffic controllers.

    Mindstorm wrote:What penetrated in the West, revolutioning and literally "allowing" the same establishment of the modern scientific community of sector in the US and the ultimate realization of all theirs "stealth" platforms up to today ,was a very little....and perfectly controlled Very Happy .....part of the Theoretic Physics achievements of Soviet In. 108 obtained more than 20 years before .

    Even today more than a person in the US sector would be caught by several cold shivers becoming aware of the percentage of information ,concepts and results totally erased also in the four versions of the unique work (among the many of In. 108) "allowed" for publication on which them put theirs hands on Laughing

    USA has a true wonderful engineering sector, with the historically best applicative computing hardware basis and precision machinery of the planet ; this ,together with very massive investments aimed at the goal, has allowed mass production of similar high cost LO platforms also in years where the making technological level don't permitted theirs realization at an acceptable and cost-efficient level for any other nation (including the same where the founding principles had been established).

    But if we talk of the Theoretic Physics understanding of the phenomenon involved and the entire gamut of solutions to the problem explored and validated, our domestic Institutes of the field are on a totally different league in respect to any other on this planet.
    People are more respectful of TANGIBLE products than they are of theoretical musings.

    Did Soviet scientists know that microwave can be used to heat food? Abso-fracking-lutely. But who got the credit for producing the microwave oven for the masses? Sure as the sky is blue it ain't the Soviets/Russians.

    So you go on be proud of Soviet/Russian theoretical musings while we get busy producing stuff.

    Mindstorm wrote:Oh yes ,the place where ,since several years, people continue to talk in circle of MiG-29 parameters, performances and capabilities on the basis of the......comical, demented theories of a disturbed poster calling himself....Fulcrumflyer !!

    Oh yes , real aviation experience Laughing Laughing

    This is the place where people still believe, in 2013, that the unlucky and full of comical technical mistakes private speech of Col Fornof's at the "Daedalians" retired pilots meeting was an...official debriefing of Red Flag 2008 getting even the courage to continue to cite it as a source Razz Razz
    Here people still believe that USAF F-15s had gained the upper hand in the one vs one DACT engagement against the IAF Su-30MKI !!! Razz Razz Razz

    This is the place where people still believe that AIM-120B had 70 km engagement range ,AIM-120C 105 km and AIM-120D 170-180 km Razz Razz Razz
    I was in WSO's seat of an F-111E in a four-ship flight at about 20 meters altitude over the Channel once when the French asked US to help with their new air defense radar. They never saw US coming.

    That is more aviation experience than ALL of you combined.
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    Post  Mindstorm Sun Mar 24, 2013 5:01 pm

    Especially when US Strong experts talk about 0.00001m rcs for the F-22, and we talk about much much bigger numbers... generally in the 0.3m range. I think I know where the exaggeration is... and it isn't here.


    Actually even the "marketing" figure cited is more than an order of magnitude greater and refere only to some hypercritical re-radiating cones Wink


    In reality also in theirs official documents....


    PAK FA, T-50: News #1 - Page 33 P6WZh


    and in the graphic models and presentations of "fifth generation" aircraft concept of operations with the expected degree of reduction of tracking range by part of enemy radars....



    PAK FA, T-50: News #1 - Page 33 1b77b29e






    the RCS of those aircraft ,obviously, MATCH PERFECTLY the figures cited by leading names of the sectors such as Pr. Lagarkov ,Pr. Davidenko, Pr. Yakov, Pr Bely, etc.... for those low observable fighter aircraft (all in the 0,1- 0,5 square meters range). Very Happy





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    Post  Mindstorm Sun Mar 24, 2013 5:57 pm



    The masking of the -22's RCS is not intentional. Repeat -- NOT INTENTIONAL. But coincidental, or a by-product of, because of the need to assist air traffic controllers.



    Therefore i should abstain from bet all my rubles on the assumption that the F-22 RCS would be hidden from radars illuminating it ,as you had suggested to me... Very Happy


    If we fly an enhanced -22 to MAKS, you can bet all your rubles that its RCS is hidden.

    When USAF need to really "mask" F-22s RCS from foreign radars it mount on it EFT as already pointed out in mine previous posts .



    So you go on be proud of Soviet/Russian theoretical musings while we get busy producing stuff.

    I admit that what you say here has a rational basis.
    Capability to conceive original engineering solutions and establish a reliable and efficient mass production's chain to effectively realize and find an application to a theoretical achievement is a scientific process not less complex than the purely theoretic R&D phase and here USA has been always historically the top of the class.
    Seldom if ever a significant theoretical achievement by part of over-ocean collagues remain forever only on paper....




    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Mon Mar 25, 2013 9:53 am

    That is a laugh. We got plenty of Russian stuff out in the ranges in Nevada. We know how 'good' they are. But of course, you are free to believe whatever you like.

    They know you have stuff in Nevada... the SA-12 stuff they sold you directly. They didn't even sell you all of it, so if you think you know how good they are... well I have an AKM, but at least I know that doesn't mean I know how good the AK12 is.

    They are getting ready to pretty much replace everything they have in service with stuff that is much better that what is currently in service, but I am sure the US knows everything about that.

    I remember reading US reports just before Gary Powers was shot down and they were talking about how the Soviet radars were based on models the US provided via lend lease so the Soviets probably wouldn't even detect the U-2 because of its operating height.

    Of course they didn't know that the Soviets had their own radar programs... not as flash as the west, but combining the Soviet technology of the time with the new US sets and surprise, surprise, those U-2s could be detected and tracked quite easily... all they were waiting for was a missile able to reach its operational altitude...
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    Post  medo Wed Mar 27, 2013 9:36 am

    That is a laugh. We got plenty of Russian stuff out in the ranges in Nevada. We know how 'good' they are. But of course, you are free to believe whatever you like.

    Of course you have, but Russia long ago retire those SA-2, SA-3 and SA-6 and even old versions of SA-10 will be soon replace with Vityaz complex, because they are nearing their end of lifetime.

    Don't forget, that Air defense also goes in its 5th generation as planes are. They are not relying only on radars, they have other means to detect and track enemy planes and shot them down.

    In my opinion, in next decades ground air defense will become quantitatively and qualitatively stronger than air forces because of high prices of 5th gen aircraft. Combination of 4+ and 5 gen fighters and 5th gen air defense will be a big challenge for any attack for smaller number of 5th gen fighters. At the end they will still need the same operational strategy as 4th gen to have a success.
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    Post  AlfaT8 Sat Mar 30, 2013 5:39 pm

    All right people, i have been wanting to ask this question for a long time now.

    Out of all the equipment on the PAK-FA, the inboard leading edge L-band AESA by Tikhomirov NIIP is the only component who's purpose is still unknown to me.
    PAK FA, T-50: News #1 - Page 33 Images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSUXb9rOVbztDZK3RJA-glvGDmLdp8MWT7xI38d818IHmkxVM-B

    There have been a number of theories, 3 of which i find plausible:
    1) Firstly, The L-band being used to not only increase angular radar coverage, but also to give the aircraft Anti-Stealth ability.

    I find this unlikely, cause i have read in the past that for an L-band to work against stealth it would need to be large in size, would require significant power and significant processing ability, please correct me if i am wrong.

    2) Increase the aircraft Data-linking(comm,targeting,ext) abilities.

    Which i find odd yet plausible, if the coverage was really needed.

    3) Data-link jamming, giving the aircraft the ability to jam enemy data-link guidance of there long range missiles, forcing the missile to activate its active homing earlier, missing its target and forcing enemy aircraft from BVR to WVR combat.

    This one i find to be the main purpose of the L-band, cause it makes a the most sense and because it was also advertised in Concern Radio-electronic technology promotional video in MAKS-2011.

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    Post  havok Sat Mar 30, 2013 6:11 pm

    AlfaT8 wrote:There have been a number of theories, 3 of which i find plausible:
    1) Firstly, The L-band being used to not only increase angular radar coverage, but also to give the aircraft Anti-Stealth ability.
    At best -- allegedly.

    AlfaT8 wrote:I find this unlikely, cause i have read in the past that for an L-band to work against stealth it would need to be large in size, would require significant power and significant processing ability, please correct me if i am wrong.
    You are not wrong. There is an inverse relationship between beamwidth and antenna/array dimension. Basically, the longer the wavelength, the larger the physical dimensions of the antenna/array in order to achieve any specified beamwidth.

    Against a low radar observably body, aka 'stealth', beamwidth is the highest importance.

    http://www.its.bldrdoc.gov/fs-1037/dir-029/_4335.htm
    radar resolution cell: The volume of space that is occupied by a radar pulse and that is determined by the pulse duration and the horizontal and vertical beamwidths of the transmitting radar. Note: The radar cannot distinguish between two separate objects that lie within the same resolution cell.

    Like this...

    PAK FA, T-50: News #1 - Page 33 Radar_resol_cell

    PAK FA, T-50: News #1 - Page 33 Radar_ghosts_no_dopp

    The locations of these L-band antennas/arrays, their shapes, and small size will not give the PAK any tactical advantages.

    AlfaT8 wrote:2) Increase the aircraft Data-linking(comm,targeting,ext) abilities.

    Which i find odd yet plausible, if the coverage was really needed.

    3) Data-link jamming, giving the aircraft the ability to jam enemy data-link guidance of there long range missiles, forcing the missile to activate its active homing earlier, missing its target and forcing enemy aircraft from BVR to WVR combat.

    This one i find to be the main purpose of the L-band, cause it makes a the most sense and because it was also advertised in Concern Radio-electronic technology promotional video in MAKS-2011.
    The Communication, Navigation, and Identification (CNI) aspect of them is more plausible than it is to be used against 'stealth'.

    This is what the -22 look like with its CNI arrays throughout the body...

    PAK FA, T-50: News #1 - Page 33 F-22_cni_ew_arrays
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    Post  GarryB Sat Mar 30, 2013 10:48 pm

    1) Firstly, The L-band being used to not only increase angular radar coverage, but also to give the aircraft Anti-Stealth ability.

    I find this unlikely, cause i have read in the past that for an L-band to work against stealth it would need to be large in size, would require significant power and significant processing ability, please correct me if i am wrong.

    These L band arrays are large in size and the Flanker series and T-50 they are designed for should have plenty of power to operate them.

    AFAIK however these wing mounted arrays are single element line arrays, so they offer directional information, but not so much precise 3D location and tracking capability.

    2) Increase the aircraft Data-linking(comm,targeting,ext) abilities.

    Which i find odd yet plausible, if the coverage was really needed.

    A lot of effort to add a capability these aircraft already possess.

    3) Data-link jamming, giving the aircraft the ability to jam enemy data-link guidance of there long range missiles, forcing the missile to activate its active homing earlier, missing its target and forcing enemy aircraft from BVR to WVR combat.

    What about the obvious... they offer a directional listening array that listens in the frequencies that enemy (western) aircraft use to communicate with each other and the missiles they launch.

    Scanning empty airspace in front of your Su-35 with your large X band AESA and there is nothing obvious there all of a sudden your L band wing mounted arrays detect signals coming from empty space towards a very small signal that is increasing to form an AMRAAM missile. Calculate the precise location of the source of those signals and I would say there is a good chance there is a stealth fighter there.

    More importantly you could then actively scan that area because if it is an F-35 then its stealth is not that great so it should be easier to detect using L band radar signals than x band. Transmit your information to the local network so that ground stations near the target can start scanning for stealth targets and the IR plume of an AMRAAM... the key here is that the main US weapon against Russian aircraft will be AMRAAM missiles... with a main radar able to blast out 20KW it should be fairly straight forward to frazzle its seeker... which means after the F-22 or F-35 has launched all its BVR missiles it will become a gun fight, or WVR fight, though DIRCMS should deal with short range missiles too.

    In other words the L band radar warns the pilot he is under attack and gives him an indication of where the threat is.

    Of course that is just my opinion, it could certainly have a broad range of uses including jamming datalinks, but then the F-22 doesn't tend to use datalinks much as they give away its presence...

    The locations of these L-band antennas/arrays, their shapes, and small size will not give the PAK any tactical advantages.

    Actually they were designed for Flankers...

    PAK FA, T-50: News #1 - Page 33 Lbandj10
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    Post  Viktor Sun Mar 31, 2013 3:47 am

    There are other ground radar systems first displayed on MAKS 2011

    like 1L122-1 ground radar working in L band with 40km and 1L122-2 with 80km range

    http://77rus.smugmug.com/Military/MAKS-2011/i-cKWQdx4/0/O/Part5_36.jpg
    http://77rus.smugmug.com/Military/MAKS-2011/i-FGtBbQV/0/O/Part5_37.jpg

    there are rumors that another ground radar in L band is destined to come out around 2015 with around 150km range.

    I see no reason why L band AESA radar fielded in the huge wings of Su-27/30/35 and T-50 would not have anti-stealth capability

    or work as a radar together with the main radar.
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    Post  GarryB Sun Mar 31, 2013 9:42 am

    This is a 5th gen fighter... its avionics will take input from all the sensors it has attached and it will combine the data to enable the best information to be extracted from that and presented to the pilot.

    The pilot will see on a radar like screen the location of enemy aircraft... he wont know what sensor has detected it or is tracking it, but the system will obviously be using the sensors in a way to reduce emissions to a minimum. It will however also be receiving info from other platforms and the IADS.
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    Post  Zivo Mon Apr 01, 2013 1:07 am

    New image, it seems Mitsubishi is also going with a two piece canopy on their 5th gen ATD-X.

    PAK FA, T-50: News #1 - Page 33 Vqtug9

    I guess the single piece canopy is not as important as some make it out to be. Rolling Eyes
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    Post  GarryB Mon Apr 01, 2013 9:01 am

    A lot of the people complaining about two piece canopies have not really thought things through.

    If you are going to have a single piece transparency then it needs to withstand impacts from objects like birds which means it needs to be thick and strong.

    With a single piece canopy that means all the canopy needs to be thick and strong which makes it less transparent.

    The alternative is to have the front thick and strong and the rest not so thick... which means optical distortion.

    The vast majority of target data from the outside world for a 5th gen fighter pilot will be coming from his 360 degree coverage optics/thermals/radar sensors that will detect and identify targets far more rapidly and accurately than his own eyes ever could... very simply a pilot might be strapped into his seat, but he can still move his head far enough to see around any structure across his canopy, so there will actually be no real blind spots anyway.
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    Post  Austin Tue Apr 02, 2013 3:10 pm

    Interview with General Designer of NPO "Saturn" Yuri Shmotin
    link ( use translator )

    You mentioned earlier the engine for future aviation complex tactical aircraft. I understand that the issue is sensitive in terms of technical solutions and is reluctant to give the designers comments on this account. One wrong word can be said about many professionals who do not want to report a new product. Still, a few words on the participation of the "Saturn" in the project.

    - In the new projects, "Saturn" is actively working on a second stage engine for the PAK FA. Although we present the ODC Division civil engines, "Saturn" did not terminate in cooperation with the Yakovlev Design Bureau. "A.M.Lyulki" work on the engine. From 2006 to the present in the KB was created significant technological advance over the engine of the second stage for the PAK FA. This has allowed this year to reach an agreement with the leadership of military engines division that "Saturn" will be responsible for the high-pressure compressor and the high pressure turbine. These nodes are actually the heart of aviation engine. Achieve just such a solution was possible thanks to the fact that you have already created a demonstrator engine components, which fully meets the specs. We have experimentally confirmed it. I can say honestly and calmly, that today all the critical decisions that need to be tested experimentally for the engine tested. And the engine will be a target date by the competent organization of labor.

    - You said that the aircraft engine is one of the most difficult and perhaps the most difficult in engineering terms the product. What is the difficulty?

    - Aircraft engine - is a heat engine. In it, the higher the temperature of combustion, the higher the compression ratio of the compressor, the higher the efficiency. For these numbers to improve, you need heavy-duty, ultra-light, heat-resistant materials and alloys that can withstand high temperature and pressure. Suffice it to say that the temperature at the outlet of the combustion chamber may exceed 2,000 degrees. The turbine rotates at a rate of tens of thousands of revolutions per minute. Such temperatures and such speed to withstand turbine parts - wheels and turbine blades. Tear off one of the blades when the engine is under the wing of the plane in the air, and the flight may stop ... To avoid this, we need modern materials technology, which in nature and technology did not previously exist, which do not yet have names. CB now getting ready to offer not only new modifications and improvements have already mastered the engine, and innovative solutions to the very design of gas turbine engine.

    Forming a technological advance, we first of all, are working to create high-temperature materials. "Saturn" today - one of the few organizations which, besides the use of materials on the market, is developing a high-temperature materials that can operate at gas temperatures up to 2050 degrees Kelvin. There are several patented "Saturn" alloys, which allows for their implementation to raise the temperature before the turbine more than 100 degrees. This is in fact already a revolution in engine. No new high-temperature alloys can not create a new generation of engines. This, in turn, requires new technologies, new equipment. New grade need not in itself, but as a material to create complex three-dimensional parts such as cooling the turbine blades. Turbine blade - a very important detail, which has a very complex three-dimensional surface, not only outside but inside in order to keep it running. It is no accident aircraft engine - "flaming engine" - is compared to the well-known anthem aviators with the human heart.
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    Post  Austin Fri Apr 05, 2013 7:23 pm

    http://www.aviaport.ru/digest/2013/04/05/252793.html

    The president of the UAC, "one of the basic requirements for a fifth generation fighter, which distinguishes them from the fourth - a low level of visibility." "So we try different spraying and coating, reducing the visibility of aircraft systems, including gold," - said the head of the United Aircraft Corporation.

    He also said that the fifth-generation fighter, which will be established on the basis of test samples PAK FA will really embodies "the most advanced technology." "It will be really disruptive plane" - not without pride, said Mikhail Pogosyan.
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    Post  Austin Wed Apr 10, 2013 3:09 pm

    Quite an interesting interview on PAK-FA 2nd stage engine

    Interview:General designer "Saturn" Yuri Shmotin

    "The engine of the second stage of the fifth generation aircraft will give new life"

    One of the biggest challenges currently facing the Russian aircraft engine is a development of the second stage engine for the aircraft PAK FA (T-50). Most of the work on the creation of this engine performs Rybinsk "Saturn."

    About that, at what stage is the creation of the engine, which features the new aircraft will become the "heart" told "Interfax-AVN" chief designer "Saturn" Yuri SHMOTIN.

    - Yuri, tell us what should be the engine for the fifth generation fighter aircraft? What are its main features?

    - The plane of the fifth generation T-50 is not just a fighter, bomber or attack aircraft. This multi-purpose aircraft. Such aircraft should be given a new "heart", which would make it highly maneuverable, fast, cost-effective and able to withstand such competitors as American F-22 and F-35.

    Engine for the fifth generation fighter aircraft will be different from the previous generation increased specific thrust, lower weight, reduced specific fuel consumption and the presence of new solutions for low visibility. In this case, it should be relatively cheap to operate and maintain. "Saturn" is currently working on such an engine.

    - What units and aggregates of the new engine is given special attention in the development? What is the greatest challenge for the engineers?

    - In aircraft engines, everything is important. One of the most complicated engine components is a high-pressure turbine. We were asked to make a turbine operating at this level of temperature at which the metal nickel alloys just melted. This work was successful.

    The heart of an aircraft engine is a high-pressure compressor. Of its level of excellence is directly dependent all basic characteristics of the engine. The amount of detail in the new high-pressure compressor, we have managed to reduce by almost half compared with the previous stage of the compressor, while providing a significant performance increase by one level. The cost of making such a compressor will not exceed the cost of making HPC engine fourth generation. This is subject to the application of new materials and technologies.

    Solving these and other problems, we will get to a gas generator with a new level of performance, which will be the basis for a new family of engines. Characteristics of the gas generator units, such as the effectiveness of the ARC, increased on average by more than four percent, and on a number of modes and eight. In fact, it is a revolution in engine, because determines the possibility of the engine with a huge reserve of development for traction.

    - What structural materials preferred for a new engine?

    - No of new materials is impossible to provide the characteristics that we make to the new generation of CCD. The specialists of "Saturn" is a good experience and the impact of new materials developed by the All-Russian Scientific Research Institute of Aviation Materials (VIAM).

    First of all, it is, of course, high-temperature nickel alloys spade. Turbine blade - it is a unique product. It is a complex spatial structure, which must operate at temperatures above 2000 K.

    There are also proprietary materials "Saturn." We can offer them for a new generation engine. These materials make it possible to increase the half life of the engine at the same temperatures.

    Today much is said about the use of composite materials. The new engine for the PAK FA used composites that are based not only on the polymer matrix to the cold part, and parts by the high-temperature compositions. These works "Saturn" is already long enough.

    - Do not forget that all new and modern with the time expires. Is there a possibility of the engine created for modernization?

    - Of course. Concurrently with the development work on the engine of the fifth generation we build backlog, which will develop the engine is not only ten, but at 30, maybe 50 years.

    Today, the "Saturn" conducted extensive research on the development of fifth-generation engine with the use of a technology called "variable cycle engine." The studies, which suggest that a certain transformation engine thermodynamics through design changes can significantly improve engine performance at subsonic and supersonic flight conditions. One of these transformations can be the use of the third circuit. All this is provided.

    - How will affect the installation of new engines for flight characteristics of fifth generation fighter? Feel a difference pilot peresevshy the plane with the engine of the first stage on the plane with the engine of the second stage?

    - The new engine is fundamentally different from the previous product of the first stage. Of course, the pilot will immediately feel the difference in traction. The plane with the new engine will be more docile and can quickly react to the pilot. In fact, the engine of the second stage is to give the T-50 aircraft to a new life.

    - Yuri, we know that the PAK FA is already being tested. What engines are equipped with the first prototypes?

    Now prototype completed the first phase of the motor, which in engineering circles is known as the product 117. In essence, this is the result of a deep family AL-31, which is installed on the aircraft today the Su-27.

    Certainly, it's a great engine, which is a best seller and is built on the fundamental principles and basic ideas of the design office Arkhip Cradles. But this is still the engine stage 4 + +.
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    Post  Viktor Wed Apr 10, 2013 4:18 pm

    Contract will be signed this year. Great development.

    I hope Russia and India will managed to board Brasil on PAK-FA project. That would other than being awesome reduce the price for fighter

    The work on the contract for the sketch and technical project of Russian-Indian fifth-generation fighter


    Moscow, April 10. The work on the contract for the sketch and technical project promising multipurpose fighter (SIP / FGFA). Fully developed image plane. Agreed amount of work and the division of the parties during development work (R & D). Preparations are being made to a contract for OCD. His signing is planned for this year.

    The agreement on the joint development and production of fifth generation fighter aircraft was signed on 18 October 2007 in Moscow as part of the 7th session of the Russian-Indian intergovernmental commission on military-technical cooperation. It is the largest joint project of Russian-Indian military-technical cooperation. In December 2010, FSUE "Rosoboronexport" company "Sukhoi" Aeronautiks Limited and Hindustan (Hindustan Aeronautics Limited) signed a contract for the development of conceptual and technical project aircraft. In the course of the first stage of the Russian side has trained Indian professionals, provided the original data and the software to create a single environment. Indian working group of experts in January 2012 working in Russia, Russian specialists - in India. The Company now exchange the necessary information. Developed by the MIT parties will have some differences from the Russian prototype associated with specific requirements of the Indian Air Force.

    Company "Sukhoi" is also involved in other Russian-Indian programs - modernization standing on the Indian Air Force Su-30MKI fighters, and adaptation to the Russian-Indian missiles, air-to-ground "BrahMos".

    SUKHOI


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    Post  Austin Fri Apr 12, 2013 3:04 pm

    Can some one who understands Russian and has knowledge on Engine tell me what qualities of Engine are they talking off for 2nd Stage PAK-FA ?

    Also is Variable Cycle Engine on the cards for 2nd stage Engine or is it reserved for later stage ?
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    Post  GarryB Sat Apr 13, 2013 2:58 am

    Can some one who understands Russian and has knowledge on Engine tell me what qualities of Engine are they talking off for 2nd Stage PAK-FA ?

    According to the translation you posted:


    Engine for the fifth generation fighter aircraft will be different from the previous generation increased specific thrust, lower weight, reduced specific fuel consumption and the presence of new solutions for low visibility. In this case, it should be relatively cheap to operate and maintain. "Saturn" is currently working on such an engine.

    So, Increased thrust, reduced weight, reduced fuel consumption per power generated, and reduced radar and IR signature, presumably intake and exhaust.

    (note reduced fuel consumption doesn't mean it will use less fuel, it just means that for every kg of force it produces it will use less fuel than the current engine does.)

    The heart of an aircraft engine is a high-pressure compressor. Of its level of excellence is directly dependent all basic characteristics of the engine. The amount of detail in the new high-pressure compressor, we have managed to reduce by almost half compared with the previous stage of the compressor, while providing a significant performance increase by one level. The cost of making such a compressor will not exceed the cost of making HPC engine fourth generation. This is subject to the application of new materials and technologies.

    In the hot high pressure section of the engine they have used new materials to allow higher temperatures, with an almost 50% reduction in the number of parts. Despite the use of new technology and new materials the new hot section is not more expensive than the current one.

    In fact, it is a revolution in engine, because determines the possibility of the engine with a huge reserve of development for traction.

    Has lots of growth potential in terms of increasing thrust.

    Will be developed as a family of engines... a good example of this is the use of the D-30 engine from the Mig-31 has the AB removed and is used in the Il-76 etc.

    BTW this new engine will be a useful addition to the Mig-31 replacement...
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    Post  Austin Sat Apr 13, 2013 7:22 am

    Thanks Garry , I was though looking at more from Engineering Prespective how does it compared to says a 117 or 117S engine , the number of stages and what advantage/disadvantage the new design can provide , how does it compare with other advanced engines around the world.

    On Mig-31 i agree they can modify the PAK-FA design into an interceptor.
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    Post  GarryB Sat Apr 13, 2013 7:44 am

    The PAK FA design is optimised for super cruising and short periods above mach 2. It is also optimised for stealth.

    A supercruising PAK DA or indeed hypersonic PAK DA would have been a much more suitable platform, but a subsonic flying wing would not be suitable either.

    Very simply a large aircraft is needed, but stealth and internal weapons carriage is not.

    To be honest a single engine two seat version of a Tu-22M3M with a huge radar and efficient modern fixed wing layout with a 5th gen 35 ton thrust engine based on the NK-32 in the 70-80 ton weight range fully loaded designed so that bypass air around the turbofan could act as a ramjet (like the SR-71). The use of titanium instead of steel and the use of a ramjet rather than a turbojet for high speed flight should allow mach 3.5 cruising speeds along with very long flight range... or indeed supercruising at supersonic speeds without AB to maximise range performance. It could be used as a strike aircraft too for large weapons that are too big for the Su-34 to carry... like FAB-5000 and FAB-9000 and of course the 11 ton new bomb. It would also be a useful platform for 6-8 Brahmos II like missiles in the naval strike role.
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    Post  Sujoy Fri May 03, 2013 8:12 pm

    F 22 & F 35 Exposed - Why They Are A Failure

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    Post  Firebird Mon May 06, 2013 8:55 pm

    I watched the whole vid. Shows, as we know, how sinister corporate America can be when selling something thats either good or garbage.

    We all know the F-35 has faults. OK some/many will be sorted, perhaps not.
    I wonder how the F-22 stands up to close examination.

    The next thing I wonder is, how good will the Pak-fa be. Its looking like an extreme bargain compared to the F-35 so far...

    Anyone wonder whether the Mig1.44 (VTOL) tech that was sold to the US was a "poison pill" ie sent America down a wrong path...

    I know Russia has corruption problems, but I dont think it has cash black holes in the way the USA does.

    It would be very interesting if it did emerge that Su-35 beats the F-35. And the Pak-fa becomes a reliable, less expensive, possibly better opponent to the F-22.

    I think historically it was Russia had better planes, but the US had better avionics/electronics. Its very likely RUssia has caught up on electronics. So the question is... is RUssia about to roar ahead... I wouldnt be very surprised. After all, Russia is superior in missiles and space tech, IMO. Ofcourse it has weak spots too, but probably in different areas.
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    Post  TR1 Mon May 06, 2013 9:56 pm

    Garry: info has come out that Sukhoi specifically requested maximum speed be limited to Mach 2.
    So no cruising above that speed.

    "
    I know Russia has corruption problems, but I dont think it has cash black holes in the way the USA does."

    Yeah, it has far far worse ones. Terrible corruption to this day, and not just in politics.

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