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    BUK SAM system Thread

    GarryB
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    BUK SAM system Thread - Page 23 Empty Re: BUK SAM system Thread

    Post  GarryB Wed Sep 07, 2022 1:15 am

    That's good but 300km away your ground radar can see only planes flying 15-20km in altitude. You need a very good IADS to really use such systems.

    Very true but with airborne radar like the Ka-31 a Rusian frigate with Shtil-1 can hit sea skimming missiles at max missile range... on land a BUK battery with other platforms using radar can hit targets behind a line of hills or even mountains...
    Podlodka77
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    Post  Podlodka77 Wed Sep 28, 2022 10:12 am

    September 28, 04:01
    Military operation in Ukraine
    Russian Defense Ministry: Buk-M3s regularly shoot down American HIMARS missiles during a special operation

    MOSCOW, 28 September. /TASS/. Crews of Buk-M3 anti-aircraft missile systems (SAM) during a special operation hit any aircraft, including missiles fired by American HIMARS multiple launch rocket systems (MLRS). This was reported in the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation on Wednesday.
    "The crews of the anti-aircraft missile brigade, armed with the latest Buk-M3 systems, regularly shoot down shells from the HIMARS multiple launch rocket system. During combat duty, air defense crews detect, escort and destroy various aircraft around the clock, providing reliable air cover for the positions of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation, as well as the most important administrative and industrial facilities.

    On Wednesday, the Russian Defense Ministry showed footage of the combat work of the Buk-M3 crews of the air defense units of the Central Military District (TsVO) in the special operation zone. The air defense system is equipped with improved electronics and new anti-aircraft missiles, the number of which has increased to six.
    "[During work it is necessary] constant attention, in no case to relax, to watch the indicators, and then everything will be successful. It all depends on the target's movement parameter and on where the target is. The complex itself sees far enough, and if the target is in the zone, then it is literally to take on escort, report, identify and launch. About two or three seconds - the missile left, "said the battery commander with the call sign "Brodyaga" in the released video.

    M142 HIMARS (High Mobility Artillery Rocket System) is a highly mobile MLRS developed by the American company Lockheed Martin. More than 20 types of ammunition have been created for installation, the firing range of which, depending on the type, can range from 30-80 (in the MLRS mode) to 300 km or more (as an operational-tactical missile system).


    https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/15889687



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    mack8
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    Post  mack8 Thu Jan 05, 2023 9:57 pm

    Good old Buk-M1 in action
    https://tvzvezda.ru/news/202315166-vnXLz.html

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    limb


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    Post  limb Sun Sep 17, 2023 3:23 pm

    Why does this happen, if russians IADS is competent and c an easily detect himars and large drones?









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    flamming_python
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    Post  flamming_python Sun Sep 17, 2023 3:49 pm

    limb wrote:Why does this happen, if russians IADS is competent and c an easily detect himars and large drones?

    Well it's a previously-unknown vulnerability being exploited perhaps by a new model of UAV designed for the task

    As good a guess as any, and probably something you could figure out for yourself w/o the obligatory dooming post

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    lyle6
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    Post  lyle6 Sun Sep 17, 2023 7:20 pm

    Its actually even more boring than that - these are old Soviet Buks with analog computers. Very limited in the way of upgradability unlike say, the Pantsir whose combat software can be upgraded with a flash drive in less than 5 minutes.

    If I were limb here I'd be more concerned with ultra-modern NATO IADS relying on state of the art electronics base just fucking failing against every single threat. Forget Kinzhals, Patriots can't even intercept subsonic unstealthy drones, the kind that Pantsir eats for breakfast.

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    TMA1
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    Post  TMA1 Sun Sep 17, 2023 10:17 pm

    Indeed. But even the old buk systems are well respected around the world as very effective. The issue is every major nation and company in their MIC are burning the midnight oil trying to figure out ways to cheaply and effectively take out drones. They are dangers even to the best Russian, American, European, east Asian or Israeli systems out there. Billions have been spent around the world for the development of sensor hardware and software to reliably detect drones at a safe distance. Russia is in a tough position as their equipment is being tested in real time. When you take the propaganda glasses off it is quite clear that Russian military equipment and thr soldiers trained on it are doing a fine job and are quickly adapting to new threats and when underperformance or faults are found they are worked on quite quickly. You saw it with himars and then the cruise missiles. Software updates and new tactics were developed in order to start reliably taking out these missiles.

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    higurashihougi
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    Post  higurashihougi Mon Sep 18, 2023 7:08 am

    It is irrelevant here (and probably more suitable in a thread specifically about drones and UAVs) but there are some proposals about the massive deployment of low-tech, cheap and simple machine guns and autocannons as a mean to counter UAVs. The logic behind that proposal is that in as UAVs are becoming cheaper and more numerous, people need something that they can deploy copiously nearly everywhere and the crews can easily abandon them without feeling any guilty.

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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Mon Sep 18, 2023 1:07 pm

    The problem is that it makes no sense using machine guns against drones either... any more than using BUKs against drones or even artillery rockets.

    Smaller lighter cheaper missiles used in large numbers makes sense for artillery rockets, while airburst shells makes sense for drones of all sizes.

    A drone can be huge or tiny, but the tiny ones are hard to engage with machine guns and everyone in a unit spraying all round their position with automatic rifle fire just puts nearby civilians and friendly units in danger.

    A vehicle like that BTR with the two 23mm cannons with radar and optics and laser rangefinder technology makes more sense in finding and aiming at and engaging targets with the airburst round spreading fragments around the point of interception to allow for any manouvers the target might have changed between the round being fired and its arrival on target.

    Three or four 23mm calibre airburst shells might cost more than a couple of belts of 5.45mm ammo or 7.62mm ammo but exploding at the distance the target is means dangerous fragments are restricted to the close proximity of the target which, carrying a HE warhead is already dangerous.

    30mm airburst cannon rounds and 57mm cannon airburst rounds are also going to add to the weapon options and indeed laser weapons and EW weapons can also assist with the job, but new EW aircraft that can locate and track the EM emissions from drones and from the stations that control those drones leading to the operators being targeted directly is an important development moving forward.

    It is amusing that drones are more effective than their much more expensive systems and weapons... just a shame that even their drones are probably going to be very expensive now and their own vulnerability to such systems will be enormous.

    A problem for Russia and China is probably the death of HATO and US forces around the world... how will they defend themselves from such systems?

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    ALAMO


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    Post  ALAMO Mon Sep 18, 2023 1:25 pm

    Seems that the whole drone story develops so rapidly, that people sometimes mix the things altogether.

    This war has started with Bayraktar overall masturbation, how about it is going to decimate the Russkie hordes with superior technology.
    Sane voices of how it won't make any difference when used against an opponent like Russia were laughed.
    And what happened? Well, the spin lasted for a few months, and ended up with all Bayraktars taken down and own Ukrainian opinions how it is just a hyped toy plane.

    What really made a change on the battlefield are not sophisticated drones with long range and endurance,but tens of thousands of small, commercial grade toys that can be used in numbers.
    This is a real game changer, as nobody considered them as a useful weapon system.
    Till now.
    The difference is, as we talk about extremely small and slow targets, it turned out that serious air defence systems have an issue with targeting them. Not only because of technological gaps, or algorithms that are not optimized for the task. But because of the extremely small reaction time.
    You can't fight effectively a two hands sized drone that will sneak into an airfield, and torch a plane using a 100g of explosives.
    There is hardly any military airfield that can be secured from it, and I have already told you what the situation looks like it three bases I know - Rammstein, Krzesiny and Balice. They have no chance against this threat.

    There is one more aspect.
    Ukrs get tons of drones. They have been using Switchblades, Warmates, and functionally any strike drone NATO could provide.
    So why the difference is so huge?
    Well ... it is the numbers that are talking.
    And the general shaping of the battlefield.
    Russkie can use any type of sophisticated ECM they have, because of being relatively safe. From both interception of the signals that could have compromise the systems too early, and physical destruction as they can operate with own forces full coverage.
    They have a formidable air defence, that makes it possible to intercept most of the drones, and create entire areas of denial.
    It all matters. You can give Lancets and FPV drones to Ukrs, even in numbers, and that won't make a big difference. Russkie will take them down, disrupt the communication, force them to land, or kill them in the air.

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    Hole
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    Post  Hole Mon Sep 18, 2023 5:37 pm

    It´s the same story as with cruise missiles or ballistic missiles.
    There is one side that can defeat 90 to 95% of the incoming targets, sometimes up to 100%, occasionaly only 85%.
    So there will be some damage from time to time but nothing catastrophic or "gamechanging".
    On the other hand there is NATO and her proxy that can manage a rate of 10% at best,
    which leads to nearly desastrous losses any time the Russians attack them with something.

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    Post  ALAMO Mon Sep 18, 2023 6:01 pm

    It is just like the latest case of Sevastopol.
    Ukrs made a struggle and finally released 11 Storm Shadows, of which Russkie took down 8.
    Considering the advance planning of this attack, multiple other targets, drones, other missiles, and decoys - 70% of the most advanced cruise missiles NATO has is a scary high figure.
    I would say the number is relatively close to the commercials Russkie provided for years, about the PoK for this type of targets.
    In a real war condition, all the planes coordinating the attack would have been taken down, making both target preselection and flight path corrections impossible.
    And what was next?
    Well, grilling the airfield where Su-24 were located, along with Storm Shadow tock and UK provided depleted uranium ammo.
    This game can last like forever.

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    Hole
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    Post  Hole Mon Sep 18, 2023 10:02 pm

    After the SMO the Russian Armed Forces will receive additional SHORAD systems.
    So the gaps will be smaller or even closed.
    Maybe Rosgvardija receives some AD systems to protect civilian infrastructure.
    Or larger military installations will get their own AD units.

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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Tue Sep 19, 2023 2:09 pm

    Actually I would expect a new breed of air defence vehicle optimised for drones that will be widely deployed and suitably equipped.

    Before this conflict such a vehicle would be a Tigr or Typhoon light wheeled vehicle with a couple of Igla-S missiles or Verba, but now I would think some sort of external weapon mount turret with 23mm cannon with airburst shells and perhaps optical and radar sensors but also Lidar sensors and dazzlers as well as EM jammers and perhaps even a laser weapon.

    Another weapon option that would be interesting would be a 40mm grenade launcher with command detonated grenades which of course would be useful against air and ground targets.

    The Americans are developing a combined 12 gauge shotgun that can fire light grenades with a calibre of about 17.5mm... the Russians have the advantage of having KS-17 shotguns that use cut up 23mm cannon barrels (rejected ones) that use an 8 gauge shotgun calibre.

    23mm is a good calibre for a grenade launcher that can also fire shotgun shells of a range of different types that would be relatively portable with an AK based Saiga type shotgun with a 25 round drum would be a potent anti drone weapon for last line of defence use too with a mix of birdshot rounds (light pellets but lots of them resulting in multiple hits) and buckshot with fewer pellets that are much heavier and hit harder... to damage structure and engines on a drone.

    If they could fit the command detonation stuff into a 23mm cannon shell then a 23mm grenade from a shotgun might be possible too... the lower muzzle velocity means thinner shell walls and more HE.

    The point is that everyone from the front line to the last rear line and deep inside your own territory drones are going to be an issue to be aware of.
    Rasisuki Nebia
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    Post  Rasisuki Nebia Wed Sep 20, 2023 9:14 pm

    People don't seem to comprehend how easy it is for drones to penetrate one's airspace and how an extremely good job Russian air defense have been for more than a year and a half.

    I'm not gonna mention the US or the Saudi's, but Israel for example that is touted to have some of the best Air defense in the ME can't even detect let alone shoot down a copy of an Iranian drone operated by Hamas launched from the Gaza strip, another such case with Hezbollah flying a drone and filming two Israeli bases, Russia has been at it for almost 2 years while Israeli Air defense assets were exhausted in just one month during couple of the one sided wars they launched on Gaza before drones were mainstream or widespread.

    Funny part is I'm sure people here know how small the Gaza strip is, 365 square kilometers which is laughably small and equates to the size of Donetsk city, where Israel has absolute superiority and where every inch is monitored some individuals on here expect Russia to be able to shoot down every threat from a 1000+ Kilometer front not accounting for NATO states which is unrealistic and idiotic to think about.

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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Thu Sep 21, 2023 7:51 am

    Not just drones that fly around... Ukraine has soldiers trained and operating behind enemy lines... how hard would it be to set up a drone mine type weapon where drones are places in specific locations and then the team leaves and after a predetermined time the drone launches itself and flys to the target nearby and tries to hit it autonomously.

    The first warning will be a tiny drone taking off and flying a short distance to a group of targets.

    This means all Russian military and civilian targets need 360 degree awareness of drones that might have little or no RCS or IR signature till possibly the last second as a small drone dives on a trench or vehicle or position.

    A laser radar that is operating 24/7 would detect such a threat at max range without broadcasting to sensors kms away a radar signal that could be detected and located... Russian drones are already equipped with LIDAR for accurate 3D mapping of the terrain it is flying over, used for all sorts of purposes including detecting wires and other obstacles that don't often show on normal radar.

    Detection needs lots of different sensors and defence needs lots of different mechanisms from jamming and electronic destruction with directed beams of energy. through the kinetic with shells and bullets and missiles to nets and screens and simply camouflaging the target so the drones don't realise you are there.

    Of course smoke is another option too as well as decoys and deception.. but also doing the same to the enemy so they are not safe either.

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    Post  Hole Thu Dec 28, 2023 10:05 pm

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