Project 677: Lada/Amur(export) class submarine

Hole wrote:
Is the auxillary vessel in the background (right corner of the pic) new?

Nein. Mit Perwoll gewaschen.

I can't see any there, but in the top left corner is one of the Arktika icebreakers in progress.

Hole wrote:
Is the auxillary vessel in the background (right corner of the pic) new?

Is it is the 5th unit of the project 23470 class.
The name is KAPITAN USHAKOV

From earlier today:

Video of ceremony:

https://cdnvideo.tvspb.ru/tvspbru-uploads/2024/01/11_pryamoe-kronshtadt_site.mp4

St. Petersburg was withdrawn from service and will be dismantled. At least TASS reports this way citing two "independent sources".

It is not about weight, it is about performance, newer batteries hold more charge and offer significantly better performance.

No type of battery likes getting sea water in them so protecting Li ion batteries from water and charging them properly is just something they have to do anyway.

The battery fires with electric vehicles normally happen because they are being charged too fast and they over heat and catch fire, or there is a short circuit which leads to heat and fire.

AIP uses hydrogen and oxygen which is no less dangerous.

A Li ion battery will be lighter and more powerful than an equivalent lead acid battery.

Saying lead acid is fine and Li ion is dangerous would be like saying black powder is good enough and that smokeless powder is expensive to make in enormous volumes and is volatile.

The first production submarine of Project 677 "Lada" is being transferred to the Russian Navy
01/31/2024

The long-awaited news came from St. Petersburg: the Kronstadt submarine was being transferred to the Russian Navy. It is the first production submarine in the line of non-nuclear submarines, built at the Admiralty Shipyards according to the adjusted project 677 Lada. Igor Vilnit, General Director of the Rubin Central Marine Engineering Design Bureau, gives his assessment of this significant fact and the events that preceded it in an interview with Rossiyskaya Gazeta.

- As we understand, Igor Vladimirovich, the word “serial” is the main thing in this news. More than once or twice I have heard that ensuring the serial construction of Project 677 non-nuclear submarines is one of the key areas in the implementation of the state defense order. And why? What advantages of submarines of this type can be openly discussed today?

Igor Vilnit: In terms of stealth, this submarine is several times superior to its predecessors. The extremely low noise level of the boat is ensured by equipment specially created for it. And the widespread use of modern means of acoustic protection, external anti-hydrolocation coating, and carefully designed hull contours contribute to its low visibility.

From the point of view of dueling situations, it is important to detect the enemy first and, if necessary, successfully resist him. The Project 677 submarine has a very powerful hydroacoustic system, missile-torpedo and electronic weapons. I would like to focus on the hydroacoustics of the Lada: it is not just a wider range of acoustic waves, it is a significantly greater target detection range. It took a lot of effort to achieve this result...

- Can you explain what this is connected with?

Igor Vilnit: The fact is that hydroacoustics, which is capable of picking up the noise of lower-noise targets, “inspecting” a large volume of the aquatic environment, naturally picks up noticeably more extraneous noise. That is, interference. And to isolate a useful signal from noise, a very good and “high-speed” hydroacoustic data processing system is required. But that's not all. Finding a target in complex hydrology is half the battle. It needs to be classified, its speed, depth and direction of movement determined. At the same time, both our boat and the enemy’s boat are moving, and the environment is not static.

For Lada, this problem has been solved, and we confirmed this during the trial operation of the lead ship.
If the Project 877 submarine, created at the Admiralty Shipyards, was called the “Black Hole,” then this one can rightfully be called “Invisible”

- Is the main one “St. Petersburg”?

Igor Vilnit: Yes, it successfully detected low-noise nuclear and non-nuclear submarines of other projects, as well as surface targets. And secretly watched them for a long time.

When creating the 677 series, Rubin's designers sought to ensure greater underwater autonomy - that is, the time when the boat is continuously submerged. Thus, "Lada" meets all modern requirements that apply to a ship of this class. The entry of a series of these ships into service with the Russian Navy will significantly increase the defense capabilities of general-purpose naval forces.

- I had to read and hear the following statement: “The coefficient of novelty of the Lada as an engineering structure is about 0.7.” What is hidden behind this meager figure?

Igor Vilnit: All odds contain an element of deceit. But a lot of new equipment was actually developed for the Lada, and many new technical solutions were used in the project. The ship's architecture is new. The entire power plant is new. Most of the electronic weapons are new. A new radio communication complex, a new external covering and much more.

It is no secret that the testing of the lead ship of this series was very difficult, took a long time, caused unflattering reviews, and sometimes criticism from the customer in the person of the Navy and the Northern Fleet. What was the reason and how was it overcome?

Igor Vilnit: Here we need to turn to the history of the appearance of the Lada. The decision to create a fourth generation non-nuclear submarine was made in the nineties. This was a critical period when the issue of not only maintaining the combat effectiveness of the Navy, preserving design bureaus and shipyards, but also the entire production cooperation, which included hundreds of enterprises, was being resolved.

And in such a situation, when our main co-executors were in the stage of reorganization - the ownership, directions of activity of the enterprises changed, the lead ship was built. It was tested and commissioned into the Russian Navy. Thanks to the fact that the country's leadership supported this project, the teams were able to realize their scientific and technical potential without fear of closing their enterprises for financial and economic reasons. And the design and scientific organizations, production enterprises from which the equipment was supplied, including new models, did not lose their personnel and retained the threads of continuity that are so necessary when creating such complex equipment as a warship.

What order of numbers are you talking about when you talk about new equipment for Lada?

Igor Vilnit: More than 130 completely new models of equipment have been created for it. And not just created - installed on the head boat. What time was it? No funds were allocated for bench testing. The first samples went straight to the ship and it took time to practically fine-tune them.

This concerns the conditions in which the ship was created and why it required such a significant amount of time for testing. During trial operation, questions also arose. But among them there was not one who would not allow the boat to be used or to say that some mistakes were made during the creation of the ship.

How and where did the trial operation take place? Can we reveal some details?

Igor Vilnit: Unlike most submarines, the St. Petersburg underwent trial operation in two fundamentally different theaters. He started in the Baltic - the so-called “shallow sea” with very peculiar acoustic conditions and hydrology, as well as intense traffic of civilian ships. Even the sea swell in the Baltic differs from the swell in the northern seas.

Then the boat moved to the north, where conditions are completely different: the hydrology of the cold and deep sea, ice edges, and a different interference regime. In addition to testing hydroacoustics, in the northern seas, with strong waves and wind, the lead submarine demonstrated the ability to dive and surface, as well as maneuver along the course in all directions relative to the wave travel.

The ship fully confirmed compliance with the specified technical characteristics, therefore, in 2020, the Commander-in-Chief of the Russian Navy approved the final act on the successful completion of the trial operation program.

By the way, third-generation submarines, such as Antey and Akula, also went through a period of trial operation. During this period, the ship’s operation schemes are being worked out, the mechanisms are checked for durability and the correctness of the decisions made.

- Was there a repetition of a well-known story in the past, when the development of design, scientific and technical thought far outstripped the production and technological capabilities of shipbuilding enterprises and their related suppliers - suppliers of ship systems and component equipment?

Igor Vilnit: This is a pleasant formulation for the designer, but it greatly simplifies the real state of affairs in the late nineties - early two thousand.

- In what sense?

Igor Vilnit: The creation of new equipment and the use of new technical solutions was not the whim of the designer. By the mid-90s, the equipment that was originally intended for Project 677 had already existed for more than twenty years. And it would be extremely imprudent to hope that it will “live” another thirty. After all, all this time, foreign colleagues-competitors have been improving their equipment, bringing to the market samples with increasingly higher characteristics almost every year. The technology for building boats also developed. And the Navy, obviously, wanted to get new boats with characteristics not inferior to the best foreign analogues...

- And did it take time for all this to “grow together”, for new models to appear and new systems and equipment based on them?

Igor Vilnit: Yes. And as I already said, the entire “readjustment” of production took place during a period when part of the industry ended up abroad, and the rest was financed very conditionally. Gradually, through joint efforts, these difficulties were overcome and it turned out that the solutions included in the project were implemented, the equipment was mass-produced and successfully used not only on Lada, but also on other projects.

How has the situation changed in the last ten years, and what distinguishes the modernized Kronstadt from the flagship in the St. Petersburg series?

Igor Vilnit: Rubin took into account the results of the trial operation of the lead ship in an improved technical design, according to which the Kronstadt was built and a further series is now being built at the Admiralty Shipyards. In June 2022, the plant laid down the fourth and fifth boats. Time has passed between the commissioning of the first and second ships, so the element base has been updated, a number of ship equipment has been modernized, and its capabilities and reliability have been increased.
Laying down of the submarines "Vologda" and "Yaroslavl". Photo: Central Clinical Hospital "Rubin"

“Both my colleagues and I remember the involuntary compliment addressed to the creators of Lada from Admiral Viktor Chirkov: “If the Project 877 submarine was called the Black Hole, let’s call this submarine the Invisible.” No one will really see or hear it.” . Is there any exaggeration here? Or: if you don’t praise yourself, the other won’t either?


Igor Vilnit: Viktor Viktorovich commanded the Baltic Fleet when the St. Petersburg was put into trial operation. And in 2012-2016 he was the commander-in-chief of the Navy, so he knows the Lada well. For a submarine, invisibility is the ability to detect the enemy before he can detect you. To do this, you need to have a low noise level and high hydroacoustics capabilities. Lada is truly in an advantageous position in both of these respects.

“Both the designers and builders of the Kronstadt are looking forward with special feelings to the acceptance of the new ship into the Russian Navy. Our submariners also pin their hopes on the modernized version of the Lada. And the fact that the first production ship of this project was commissioned will certainly increase its export potential. How do Rubin, Rosoboronexport, and your other partners in the military-technical cooperation assess this, if we are talking about the Amur-1650 export project?

Igor Vilnit: Of course, friendly foreign customers are closely monitoring the implementation of Project 677, and the commissioning of the first production ship is very important. This is another signal that the project has taken place. We offer our foreign partners an export modification, Amur-1650, along with Project 636, which has long and firmly established itself in the export market thanks to its powerful missile system. The interest of specific buyers in the type of boat depends on what task the Navy of a particular country sets for itself. However, given that the Amur-1650 is a next-generation project, we expect it to take the baton from the Kilo class and form the basis of our exports in the coming decades.

- Key Question -


Raising the flag on a serial ship is a common holiday for all its creators

In the fall of 2018, when the Kronstadt was launched, the management of the Admiralty Shipyards made it clear that the difficult period was over, and the forced pause in the construction of the series made it possible to learn lessons and accumulate important experience. What could the chief designer of the project add to this?

Alexander Arsentiev, since 2008 - chief designer of project 677 :

- More than five hundred Russian contractors took part in the creation of Lada: scientific organizations, system designers, suppliers of equipment and materials. This submarine is a high-tech system in which our joint plans are realized.

Due to well-known circumstances, the project was indeed difficult at first, but the first production Lada in its current form is an indisputably positive result, which indicates that the program has taken place. And this is the merit of all participants in the cooperation. During the tests, our ship confirmed its high tactical and technical characteristics.

We are grateful to the military sailors of the Baltic and Northern Fleets who “tested” the lead boat, “St. Petersburg”, and gave us their comments and suggestions for the improved design on which the “Kronstadt” was built. We are glad that we have built a long-standing and very well-coordinated partnership with the Admiralty Shipyards, which allowed us to quickly resolve all issues that arose during construction and testing. The expected raising of the flag on this ship is our common holiday. In the Kronstadt submarine, the scientific, technical and creative potential of domestic shipbuilding found its visible embodiment.

https://rg.ru/2024/01/31/v-sostav-vmf-rossii-peredaiut-pervuiu-serijnuiu-podlodku-proekta-677-lada.html

GarryB wrote:
A Li ion battery will be lighter and more powerful than an equivalent lead acid battery.

It will be SMALLER for the same amount of energy stored.
That is why you can have more energy in the same volume.
Volume on submarines is limited. If you increase the sub's size, it will need more power to have the same parameters. There is no linear correlation I guess.

KRONSHTADT

It will be SMALLER for the same amount of energy stored.
That is why you can have more energy in the same volume.

Lead acid batteries are heavy because lead is heavy. Lithium is light.

Li-ion batteries are also more energetic so a 24 volt 500 amp Li ion battery is going to be much lighter and also smaller and more compact than a lead acid battery that is 24 volts and 500 amps.

That is why I compared a Li-ion battery with an equivalent lead acid battery.

In practise of course they will carry rather more Li ion batteries than they carried lead acid batteries because they are not just lighter and more compact, but they are also rather more powerful per square cm so being able to remain submerged for 3 weeks instead of just 1 week is the payoff.

If you cool the batteries then you could probably charge the Li-ion batteries much faster using much higher voltages and more Amps than is possible with lead acid batteries.

Both types contain energy potential and both would be dangerous if you get sea water in them or short circuit them, or overcharge them...

Russia has invested a lot of money and brain power in new battery technology, it would be silly to ignore that and continue to use inferior battery technologies.

This submarine would be way better with lithium-ion batteries. I assume they didn't put those in because they don't have a whole supply chain to make fuel batteries (they need to import lithium) and existing lithium batteries made in Russia haven't been qualified to operate on a submarine.

This is something that they clearly need to address. It could be used in later variants of this submarine and the next generation Kalina submarine.

Still this is a huge improvement over the Kilo. They should just cancel building more Kilo subs and replace any orders for the Kilo with orders for this sub. 35 vs 52 crew. You can operate 3 Lada submarines with the crew for 2 Kilo. And it is both more stealthy and has better sensors.

https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/2024/02/russia-commissions-first-serial-lada-class-submarine/

It looks better than the Kilo IMO, & has 17 less crew, which means longer time at sea possible w/o resupply.
With projected 5 units, that's 85 personnel saved for other duties.

lancelot wrote:This submarine would be way better with lithium-ion batteries. I assume they didn't put those in because they don't have a whole supply chain to make fuel batteries (they need to import lithium) and existing lithium batteries made in Russia haven't been qualified to operate on a submarine.

This is something that they clearly need to address. It could be used in later variants of this submarine and the next generation Kalina submarine.

Still this is a huge improvement over the Kilo. They should just cancel building more Kilo subs and replace any orders for the Kilo with orders for this sub. 35 vs 52 crew. You can operate 3 Lada submarines with the crew for 2 Kilo. And it is both more stealthy and has better sensors.

Not sure what's your point, as they are making those serial
Without Peter, there are still 5 pcs in different stages.
636.6 was being built as a proven and mastered technology. This was a very good idea, as 677 took a long time until all cases were resolved. Russkie had little experience with a single hull sub design, and it was both designed and built at shitty times.
A lot of 877 will be taken out of service in coming years, so no worries, they will have crews for them all.

I will just give you an anchor.
The most advanced conventional subs out there would be the Japanese Taigei.
Boats are bigger than 677 and 636, yet does not carry any SLCM other than Harpoon.
The class crew of 70 is bigger than both 636 and 677, twice the size of 677 to be precise.
Japan is an economy on pair with Russian one, with 125mn of shrinking population.
They have TWO of Taigei class plus THREE more at a different stages of production.
Plus TVELVE previous generation Soryu. With crews bigger than 636 and 677 as well, and no SLCMs.

Russia has SIXTEEN 636.6 subs, TEN in the ranks FIVE a different stages of construction, and ONE in repair after getting hit in a drydock. All with SLCMs.
Plus some TEN of older 877 project, some of  them being fit for Kalibrs.

Won't even list the number of nuclear subs, there is no need for that honestly.  

Japan is a country that considers itself a naval power. Being located on islands, is heavily dependant for its trade by sea. Both supply and export can't be carried without a navy and safe water transport corridors.

Russkie could give a damn about a whole navy, from the economical perspective.

The Japanese subs either have AIP (Stirling engine) or lithium-ion batteries.
But it is not possible to compare the submarine fleets of Russia and Japan because in Japan's case they don't have nuclear subs. Japanese diesel submarines are supposed to be much bigger and have better endurance while Russian diesel subs are expected to operate close to bases.

Other submarines like German-Italian Type 212 or French Scorpene have small crews. 27 crew and 31 crew respectively. And those submarines are the main competitors to the Lada in the international market. Not the Taigei.

There are 11 Project 636.3 boats built for the Russian Navy with 1 under construction.
There are 2 Project 677 built for the Russian Navy with 3 under construction.

There were supposedly 4 more Project 636.3 boats ordered. I just think those orders should be replaced with orders for Project 677.

As for older Kilos it is debatable how many are in an actual operational state. Although it would be possible to do a deep repair they seem to have decided in a lot of cases that it is better to just build new ones.

Russian SSKs don't need to sail around the world, they have SSNs and SSGNs for that sort of thing.

SSKs are defensive, which is why Australia is buying SSNs...

lancelot wrote:The Japanese subs either have AIP (Stirling engine) or lithium-ion batteries.
But it is not possible to compare the submarine fleets of Russia and Japan because in Japan's case they don't have nuclear subs. Japanese diesel submarines are supposed to be much bigger and have better endurance while Russian diesel subs are expected to operate close to bases.
Other submarines like German-Italian Type 212 or French Scorpene have small crews. 27 crew and 31 crew respectively. And those submarines are the main competitors to the Lada in the international market. Not the Taigei.
There are 11 Project 636.3 boats built for the Russian Navy with 1 under construction.
There are 2 Project 677 built for the Russian Navy with 3 under construction.
There were supposedly 4 more Project 636.3 boats ordered. I just think those orders should be replaced with orders for Project 677.
As for older Kilos it is debatable how many are in an actual operational state. Although it would be possible to do a deep repair they seem to have decided in a lot of cases that it is better to just build new ones.

Having or not having AIP is irrelevant for Russian SSKs, as they have a nuclear fleet to do the job where the range of SSK is not good enough.
It is just fine for all the seas surrounding Russia, a big Ochotskie included.
636.6 proved effective operations in the Med, so ...
Both 212 and Scorpene are small subs, much smaller than both Japanese and Russian ones.
Both are smaller ranged and have narrower operational parameters like dive depth etc.
None has SLCMs, and what is even more interesting, none has AShM - only Indian and Chilean are to be Exocet carriers.
Any comparison of the Club system to Exocet is a joke.
Apples to oranges.

You have Yakutsk, Petrozavods, Muzhaysk, Mariopol, and two others under construction right now, with Mariopol and the others being ordered in 2022. Two latest simple await the dock space.
There are 10 active 636.6, one in repair after dock strike (supposed to be ready by Summer24) and five at different construction phases.
Sixteen in total.

212A was made in 10 pcs, all of them. Starting in 1998. Half (if not more) of German subs are moored and non-operational due to different reasons ...
Scorpene was made in 10 pcs for the last +/-20 (!yes time goes by!) years.

No matter how many 877 are operational, there are certainly more of them in line than German 212A, and my educated guess is that the operational ones are the ones modified to fit Kalibrs.

You guys will never stop to amaze me - Russkie operate and construct a conventional submarine fleet bigger than all European countries operate combined, and more than Japan fleet - operating a nuclear fleet second in numbers to monstrous USN only.
But it is still not good enough for you.
Death Star is the only solution I guess to make you happy.
Lots of Death Stars, because having only five won't be good enough either.
A hundred?

Edit : a funny memory.
If we are to compare apples to apples, we shall add 636M and 877 that were built simultaneously. So if we will take a beginning of 212A construction, it is more than 20 (!) boats more.

A bloody 40 big, conventional subs.
That's twice the whole European construction in numbers, and more than triple the displacement. do you do realize that?

The export version of the Type 212, the Type 214, was built in much larger numbers. Several NATO or US aligned countries operate them.

The Type 212/214 can carry the Harpoon missile, while the Scorpene can carry the Exocet. So both can carry anti-ship missiles. Yes these anti-ship missiles are less capable than the Kalibr. The Scorpene can also launch MICA anti-air missiles. Which none of the Russian submarines can do.

As much of a success as the Kilo was both in Soviet/Russian service and as an export product let's not exaggerate its capabilities in the current threat environment.

The Lada at least is once again competitive. If you compare it specwise it is roughly analogous to the Spanish S-80 Plus submarine. Which is a much more recent design. But these submarines still need more modern battery storage and perhaps AIP to be more competitive in the export market.

I wouldn't say AIP is useless for Russia either. Imagine if you could move submarines at will by transiting between the Northern and Pacific fleets under the ice at any time of the year. Wouldn't that have some military value?

In terms of hull design the Lada is also behind the German subs. I mean just look at them. The Germans use composites in the upper structure for example. Which means they should be way less radar visible when surfaced.

It is an even smaller piece.
And if you will add all of them to the list, in the last 25 years, you will finally get somehow on equal numbers.
But not tonnage.

And no, Scorpene does not carry both Exocet and Mica.
Heavily doubt Mica at all, while Execet was ordered by India and Brasil only.
In the Polish Orka project, both Scrpene and 212A were offered, and both lacked any missiles.

The French are also developing the Naval SCALP missile.
https://www.navyrecognition.com/index.php?id=2042
https://www.naval-technology.com/projects/mdcn-missile-croisiere-naval/?cf-view


So eventually they will have a land attack cruise missile which can be launched from torpedo tubes. They already offered this missile to India if they buy more Scorpenes.

Perhaps they will.
Japanese can adopt some of their good quality, fast missiles for tube usage, too.
But we are talking about something that "can be made" against something that is in use for a decade, and battle proven multiple times.
Wanna bet on "SL Salp" or next generation Kalibr with an even more badass load?

Just looking at them didn't help them much in being non-operational for years.
There was a moment in 2018 when NONE (ZERO) of Bundesmarine 212As was operational.
NONE.
Should I tell you what a genie was a German MoD for years, or you can google that? Because I don't want to boil Hole's blood too much as he will start to find a decent tree to combine it with a rope and that distinguish person

lancelot wrote:

I wouldn't say AIP is useless for Russia either. Imagine if you could move submarines at will by transiting between the Northern and Pacific fleets under the ice at any time of the year. Wouldn't that have some military value?

In terms of hull design the Lada is also behind the German subs. I mean just look at them. The Germans use composites in the upper structure for example. Which means they should be way less radar visible when surfaced.

I think that the VMF realized that counting on shuttling platforms from outside of the theatre to inside is not reliable and the SMO showed that

Regardless of what political arrangements exist between neighbors and what capabilities they have to do what

It is best not to assume that you will just be allowed to bring your platforms from outside

So it's best to have independent clusters of ship builders, maintenance facilities and dry docks

As well as reliable platforms to just churn out to increase numbers as a stop gap until newer platforms are developed and the issues with them are resolved

Right now there is only 1 Lada class in active service, so serial production is mastered, but they haven't encountered problems/bottleneck in production as well as any issues with the operation of said subs

You never know maybe the first doesn't have an issue, but #2 or #3 could or maybe you find the first batch is totally fine, but then you start another one and there are issues

So with regard to reliability they will just stick with 636 to pump numbers, and then gradually introduce Lada

And then go from there as far as replacing the 636 with a new sub down the line

I like this approach because you can count on independence of the regions building/maintenance capacity as well as the platform itself without worrying about lack of capability

As time goes on you can improve the technology and then when you are ready to replace the platform you can finally commit to the new one

But I trust fully in VMF having learned from the war in Ukraine that relying on outside platforms isn't always a given , and reliability is just the thing you need