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69 posters

    Project 677: Lada/Amur(export) class Submarine

    Isos
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    Post  Isos Fri Sep 24, 2021 12:06 pm

    Many countries will be looking at Russia for small nuclear attack submarines

    With all those projects with small nuclear power plants like poseidon or Burevestnik missiles, it's just a matter of time before they produce a mini reactor for Kilo class like submarines for a mix of nuclear/lithium batteries propulsion system.

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    Post  Arrow Thu Oct 21, 2021 6:49 am


    The first serial submarine, project 677, will be delivered to the fleet in 2022
    https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/12719879

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    Post  Isos Fri Dec 03, 2021 4:14 pm

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    Post  TMA1 Fri Dec 03, 2021 10:52 pm

    Wonder why they went with traditional bow planes.
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    Post  PapaDragon Sat Dec 04, 2021 1:33 am

    TMA1 wrote:Wonder why they went with traditional bow planes.

    Probably to save space, they are smaller than Kilos


    More pics:

    Project 677: Lada/Amur(export) class Submarine - Page 23 03-10259881-kronshtadt-galernyj-mikhail-salnikov.-3.12.21-06

    Project 677: Lada/Amur(export) class Submarine - Page 23 03-10259881-kronshtadt-galernyj-mikhail-salnikov.-3.12.21-17

    Project 677: Lada/Amur(export) class Submarine - Page 23 03-10259881-kronshtadt-galernyj-mikhail-salnikov.-3.12.21-12


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    Post  Mir Sat Dec 04, 2021 8:27 am

    Technically they are sail planes and not bow planes.

    Nice pics! Smile

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    Post  GarryB Sun Dec 05, 2021 3:09 am

    My understanding is that they prefer bow planes for subs that surface through ice a lot because they are fully retracted and therefore cannot suffer damage. I suspect the Lada class will be used in the Pacific and Baltic and Black Sea fleet ports the most where their excellent electronics and sonar equipment would make them rather potent.

    It would also be an internal space thing too as the bow planes that completely retract take up more internal space.

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    Post  pukovnik7 Mon Dec 06, 2021 12:29 pm

    GarryB wrote:My understanding is that they prefer bow planes for subs that surface through ice a lot because they are fully retracted and therefore cannot suffer damage. I suspect the Lada class will be used in the Pacific and Baltic and Black Sea fleet ports the most where their excellent electronics and sonar equipment would make them rather potent.

    It would also be an internal space thing too as the bow planes that completely retract take up more internal space.

    Later submarines of the Los Angeles class had their planes moved from their sail to bow for precisely that reason. Now that I think about it, I have not seen sail planes on any Russian or Soviet nuclear submarine I remember seeing photos of. So yes, Lada class probably will not be used in the Arctic - though, with global warming, I am not sure ice is much of an issue anymore.

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    Post  Mir Mon Dec 06, 2021 12:46 pm

    pukovnik7 wrote:
    GarryB wrote:My understanding is that they prefer bow planes for subs that surface through ice a lot because they are fully retracted and therefore cannot suffer damage. I suspect the Lada class will be used in the Pacific and Baltic and Black Sea fleet ports the most where their excellent electronics and sonar equipment would make them rather potent.

    It would also be an internal space thing too as the bow planes that completely retract take up more internal space.

    Later submarines of the Los Angeles class had their planes moved from their sail to bow for precisely that reason. Now that I think about it, I have not seen sail planes on any Russian or Soviet nuclear submarine I remember seeing photos of. So yes, Lada class probably will not be used in the Arctic - though, with global warming, I am not sure ice is much of an issue anymore.

    The very successful series of "Delta" class submarines (Pr.667B/BD/BDR/BDRM) all has sail planes as well as the earlier "Yankee" (Pr667A/AU) class boats.

    Project 677: Lada/Amur(export) class Submarine - Page 23 Deltai10

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    Post  PapaDragon Mon Dec 06, 2021 3:39 pm

    GarryB wrote:I suspect the Lada class will be used in the Pacific and Baltic and Black Sea...

    pukovnik7 wrote:So yes, Lada class probably will not be used in the Arctic...

    All Lada boats are slated for North Fleet, the St. Petersburg is already stationed there

    Pacific and Baltic are receiving Kilos

    So Ladas will definitely be used in the Arctic



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    Post  flamming_python Mon Dec 06, 2021 11:24 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    GarryB wrote:I suspect the Lada class will be used in the Pacific and Baltic and Black Sea...

    pukovnik7 wrote:So yes, Lada class probably will not be used in the Arctic...

    All Lada boats are slated for North Fleet, the St. Petersburg is already stationed there

    Pacific and Baltic are receiving Kilos

    So Ladas will definitely be used in the Arctic




    There was a report last year suggesting that the Russian Navy plans for Ladas equipped with some AIP-type system (or equivalent) to be used in the Pacific as hunter-killer subs

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    Post  Krepost Sat Dec 18, 2021 5:25 pm

    KRONSHTADT recent photos

    Project 677: Lada/Amur(export) class Submarine - Page 23 17-10312

    Project 677: Lada/Amur(export) class Submarine - Page 23 17-10311

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    Post  owais.usmani Tue Dec 28, 2021 5:18 pm



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    Post  Autodestruct Wed Dec 29, 2021 11:49 pm

    TMA1 wrote:
    Wonder why they went with traditional bow planes.

    As another said, they are sail planes. Sail planes gives an advantage because they are placed near the center of the ship. This means you can use them to aid in changing depth without creating a large up/down angle on the ship. Bow planes always have to be used with the stern planes (which provides the counter force) in order to change depth without causing a large angle on the ship. Less external components moving means sail planes can be quieter.

    Sail planes have a disadvantage on the surface because they are out of the water and don't help you conduct a rapid dive. Also, there are times (for emergencies) when you want a large up angle on the ship to drive toward the surface at full power. Sail planes do not allow for this, however, most submarines with sail planes will also have stern planes to be used for this purpose.

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    Post  mnztr Sun Jan 23, 2022 8:11 am

    I am surprised Russia has not developed a fuel cell AIP system. They have most of the tech in their space program already.
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    Post  Krepost Sat Feb 12, 2022 5:08 pm

    Recent photos from Kronshtadt
    Good size comparison between Lada and Kilo:
    Project 677: Lada/Amur(export) class Submarine - Page 23 12-10410
    Project 677: Lada/Amur(export) class Submarine - Page 23 Flybff10

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    Post  magnumcromagnon Sat Feb 12, 2022 5:25 pm

    Krepost wrote:Recent photos from Kronshtadt
    Good size comparison between Lada and Kilo:
    Project 677: Lada/Amur(export) class Submarine - Page 23 12-10410
    Project 677: Lada/Amur(export) class Submarine - Page 23 Flybff10

    Isn't the size difference largely because the Lada Class incorporates a greater amount of automation, resulting in a significant reduction in staffing of crew? Lada has like 35 ship mates compared to Kilo's 52 shipmates, which is a standard reduction of 17 crew shipmates due to greater automation innovation I believe.

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    Post  ALAMO Sat Feb 12, 2022 5:36 pm

    Yes, but to start with, it is an"inexpensive" alternative to 636, made with the single hull design. That reduces the beam and buoyancy already.
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    Post  GarryB Sun Feb 13, 2022 4:15 am

    I am surprised Russia has not developed a fuel cell AIP system. They have most of the tech in their space program already.

    The Russian system was more ambitious than western systems which just use stores of hydrogen and stores of oxygen to run their hydrogen fuel cells.

    The Russian system was many times more powerful than existing hydrogen fuel cells which makes them more viable... the Japanese tested fuel cells on a sub and found the energy level was so low the sub was essentially useless while it was charging up the batteries which took much longer than running diesel generators to do so, so while it is quieter, it makes the sub useless for a much longer period.

    After experience with an AIP sub the next sub they made removed the AIP and hydrogen and oxygen tanks and just replaced them with more lithium ion batteries.

    The Russian AIP is very very interesting because apparently it extracts the hydrogen from diesel fuel, which is handy because a diesel electric sub is already carrying diesel fuel and every port on the planet already has equipment and infrastructure in place to provide diesel fuel to ships and subs.. whereas very few have the same infrastructure for hydrogen or oxygen. It was also reported that this AIP technology generates four or five times more power than existing hydrogen fuel cell AIP types which might actually make them a viable means to recharge and also operate a sub underwater without the loss of function while charging.

    Another interesting aspect is that fuel cells don't use combustion so an AIP that uses diesel fuel will create a lot of solid carbon waste and that might be the problem... how to deal with it.

    Ironically solid carbon is actually valuable and can be used to make carbon fibre based products as well as carbon nano tubes which offer enormous potential.

    Being able to use diesel or petrol or kerosene without combusting it solves a number of problems... transporting and storing hydrogen is a problem because you either need extreme cold or enormous pressure or a mix of both... diesel and other fuel storage is not only easier it is already in place and the distribution networks already in place can remain... your car might lose the internal combustion engine and get a fuel cell, you buy your fuel as normal, but when you fill up you might hand over a large cube of carbon produced from the previous tank of fuel that you can sell back to the garage or take to a recycling place... or do anything you like with... if it isn't burning then it isn't creating green house gasses so it is fine... the exhaust pipe at the back of your car will be releasing water vapour and heat from the fuel cell process that is essentially oxidising hydrogen.

    Of course new graphine based batteries might mean you charge up once and can use them for months...
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    Post  lancelot Sun Feb 13, 2022 9:55 pm

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    Post  Krepost Mon Feb 14, 2022 3:51 pm

    ADMIRALTEYSKIE VERF JSC STARTED CUTTING METAL OF TWO PROJECT 677 SUBMARINES
    Project 677: Lada/Amur(export) class Submarine - Page 23 28f2f110

    Note: These are the two that were contracted in June 2019 during the Army Forum.
    The official laying down will happen later on this year.

    http://admship.ru/press/news/ao-admiralteyskie-verfi-pristupilo-k-rezke-metalla-dvukh-podvodnykh-lodok-proekta-677/

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    Post  AlfaT8 Mon Feb 14, 2022 4:31 pm

    I am wondering when they are gonna start work on the amur class.
    Those vertical launchers would be very usefull.
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    Post  PapaDragon Mon Feb 14, 2022 4:38 pm

    AlfaT8 wrote:I am wondering when they are gonna start work on the amur class.
    Those vertical launchers would be very usefull.

    Amur is just Lada will VLS segment added on and Navy said they don't need them on SSKs

    What matters is that production of Ladas heats up to Kilo speed

    Kilos are excellent even today but Ladas are orders of magnitude superior

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    Post  Hole Mon Feb 14, 2022 7:47 pm

    This answers the question in post No. 570. Very Happy
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    Post  Isos Mon Feb 14, 2022 8:21 pm

    Amur is the export version. Amur 1650 is the one that looks like Lada with 533mm torpedoes. Amur 950 has 10 VLS for kalirb/oniks/tzirkon and 400mm torpedoes for self defence. Those two are the most well known but they have proposed more designs starting from Amur 550 and ending with Amur 1850. The number represent the surface displacement. You have the 550, 750, 950, 1450, 1650, 1850.

    Then you also have the S-1000 which was proposed as a project involving italians.


    All those projects failed. The 550 could have been a good pocket submarine for plenty of navies. The 950 with its 10 VLS is also a good submarine.

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