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    Project 677: Lada/Amur(export) class Submarine

    Hole
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    Post  Hole on Thu Mar 14, 2019 10:34 am

    But it makes them the largets weapons exporter of the planet. Very Happy
    verkhoturye51
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    Post  verkhoturye51 on Thu Mar 14, 2019 6:59 pm

    You must be very careful when considering prices of "defence materiel" in Russia.

    It's not that bad Smile The purchasing power in Russia is almost twice larger than in the US.
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Fri Mar 15, 2019 2:12 am

    Actually they seem to be getting vastly better value for money, and spend smarter rather than faster...
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    Post  LMFS on Thu Mar 28, 2019 6:17 pm

    Russia will continue the construction of submarines of project "Lada"

    https://weaponews.com/news/65349043-russia-will-continue-the-construction-of-submarines-of-project-lada.html
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    Post  hoom on Fri Apr 05, 2019 4:17 am

    Basically hunting for India to supply capital to finish off AIP development...
    Not necessarily a bad idea but India is not exactly proven to be a reliable funding partner.

    Ultimately I expect Russia will need to front the $$$ itself & meanwhile they stopped development so its gonna be even more delayed.
    Isos
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    Post  Isos on Fri Apr 05, 2019 8:20 am

    hoom wrote:Basically hunting for India to supply capital to finish off AIP development...
    Not necessarily a bad idea but India is not exactly proven to be a reliable funding partner.

    Ultimately I expect Russia will need to front the $$$ itself & meanwhile they stopped development so its gonna be even more delayed.

    They should make some powerpoint slides and go ask the arab states. None has any sub in service while it is a must have. And right now just like egypt or turkey they are trying to be less dependent on US.

    But russians suck at marketing.


    Last edited by Isos on Wed Jun 05, 2019 11:42 am; edited 1 time in total
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    Post  hoom on Sun May 26, 2019 10:22 am

    Couple of pics of Kronstadt in early May
    Project 677: Lada/Amur(export) class Submarine - Page 17 19-7514213-dsc02228
    Project 677: Lada/Amur(export) class Submarine - Page 17 19-7514213-dsc02229
    and they turned it round since
    Project 677: Lada/Amur(export) class Submarine - Page 17 25-7533205-677-kronshtadt-admiraltejskie-verfi-25.05.2019
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    Post  runaway on Wed Jun 05, 2019 10:30 am

    verkhoturye51 wrote:
    Also, let western navies "blow off the roof" with devilishly expensive AIP

    Type 212 costs around 400 mio $ and Lada costed 300-350 mio in the end 1990s, because of inflation you can translate this into 450 mio today. You can drive the price down with scalling up the production. The entire Latin America drives German subs. I think the decrease in size of Russian navy has lead the Swedish navy to do the same.

    Yes of course when the BF was small and old there was no sense in keeping many operational modern subs for Sweden so they went down to 5.
    Now they are completing 2 new A26 class submarines so to replace the two older Södermanland class subs. They are also modernizing the 3 Gotland class, so all in all 5 modern subs all with AIP.
    They are expanding the Navy as well so there are plans for increasing the Sub flottilla with 1 or 2 more subs in the 2020´s togheter with more corvettes.

    And i think AIP is definitively worth the extra money, it enhances the combat value several times when allowing the sub to stay quite for weeks instead of days. Its very much a shame Russian navy hasnt and still dont have operational AIP.
    In backsight they should have copied the Stirling machinery while contionuing developing their own Diesel AIP.

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    Post  Isos on Wed Jun 05, 2019 11:49 am

    Russia has ASW corvettes in baltic and many ka-27 in kaliningrad covered by su-27 and s-300.

    Sweedish subs will be dead meat if war happens. If they fire a torpedo they will be detected and destroyed.

    With Kalibr they can hit them when they are in port within an hour. Moreiver since soviet times Sweedish bases are watch by swimmer spetznaz so tey could destroy the subs under water when they go out of the port.

    AIP is needed for exporting the subs mostly. With all the assets they have, AIP is not crucial for russian navy.

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    Post  GarryB on Wed Jun 05, 2019 12:44 pm

    They have SSNs which are as AIP as they come...

    Personally I think small compact nuclear batteries offer better potential in terms of long term high energy capacity and surface independence... I mean with a constant electrical power source you can extract oxygen from sea water, and even use the hydrogen as fuel to run a gas turbine if you wanted to... but simply using the nuke battery means no need to store volatile fuels or oxygen for anything other than breathing...

    Most of the time the Swedish believed there were Soviet subs in their waters it turned out it was probably HATO subs testing themselves...
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    Post  runaway on Wed Jun 05, 2019 7:30 pm

    Yes but most of the suspected subs were taxiboats or sea animals.
    But in one special episode we had track of a submarine moving out of Danziger gatt. There we had a line of mines and a request to open fire was asked. From highest authoritis came, no. The sub was let out, and i think it was because they didnt want to kill 50 men and sink a probably Nato sub.

    Main purpose of swedish sub would not be to fire torpedoes. Instead they take bottom position from Gotland and north, they can then have track of all ship movements in the entire baltic sea, and direct air attacks against surface units.
    Only in case of an invasion will the subs open fire with torpedoes, and then target the troop transports.

    So, with AIP they can spend weeks laying still, impossible to detect with complete control of sea movements. Not a bad thing, AIP.
    Nuke batteries sounds great, but perhaps a little far of in future and perhaps way more dangerous.
    Isos
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    Post  Isos on Wed Jun 05, 2019 9:23 pm

    At the bottom they can't communicate with the air force.

    And sonars have lot of dead zones if it stay static.

    So no they want use them like you suggest.
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    Post  runaway on Wed Jun 05, 2019 9:58 pm

    Oh they dont use active somars, they only listen and i know they can hear all of baltic sea, even determine what ships there are.
    If they are deep they just go up send and back down. I know how they will use them, been in the navy.
    Also Gotland and A26 will have missiles, not only torpedoes. But their 650mm torpedo is huge wirh long distance.
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    Post  Isos on Wed Jun 05, 2019 11:57 pm

    Dead zones appears because of sound propagation not because of the sonar. So a passive sonar will be affected too.

    They don't have 650mm torpedos, only russians have them.

    By what you are saying, I guess you were a cook in the navy rather than an admiral.
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    Post  GarryB on Thu Jun 06, 2019 8:52 am

    Nuke batteries sounds great, but perhaps a little far of in future and perhaps way more dangerous.

    Actually a small compact system that just generates a few megawatts would be plenty to charge batteries or to put through a hydrogen fuel cell to extract oxygen from sea water and run basic electronics... they had developed a wide range of them to operate in satellites... they make no sound because they have no moving parts or cooling requirements...

    Plus as power generators you could located them in extreme locations along the bottom of the sub so if they become faulty or dangerous you could dump them easily enough... they just need to be tied in to the electric system of the sub to provide power when needed.

    By what you are saying, I guess you were a cook in the navy rather than an admiral.

    Ouch... a bit harsh isn't it?
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    Post  runaway on Thu Jun 06, 2019 10:17 am

    You forget there will be several submarines, not just one so no dead zones. Which btw i have never heard of, the water in the baltic is mostly freshwater so no layers appear.
    Ah yes you misunderstood, the torpedoes i referred to are heavy 650cm but closer to 7m and with 40km range and 300 kg explosive they are devestating to any ship.
    I have seen the in action as when practise firing at night they have a bright light in the nose, looks like ghosts flying.
    Nothing wrong with cooks, they make great food and are a very important crew on board.
    Judging from your agressive attitude youre a farm boy or city dweller, unfamiliar with navys and the sea. Leave that for us who know what we are talking about.

    About nuke batteries, yes satellites have them but its a different matter sitting on them. SSN are of course better then SSK with AIP, but only in the ocean as they are not that quite and to big for coastal and shallow waters.
    The Lada which this tread is about is missing the crucial AIP all of its modern foes have and that is a negative feature. The kilo 636 is a great boat and proven with doublehull but also lacking AIP.

    It will be interesting so see if the Rubin have succeded with monohull this time, and when and if Lada gets AIP.
    Until then the Lada is a 20 year old failure unlike the kilo which has been a succes story.
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    Post  Isos on Thu Jun 06, 2019 12:06 pm

    Leave that for us who know what we are talking about.

    It might help ...



    You have 0 knowledge of ASW. Actually it might be a proof that you are in sweedish navy, and probably the sonar operator.

    And yeah I'm from a big city with no experience at sea but at least I check for information before saying stupid things like "put 3 or 4 sub in the bottom and you will see everything".
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    Post  GarryB on Fri Jun 07, 2019 2:42 am

    Nothing wrong with cooks, they make great food and are a very important crew on board.

    Never piss off a cook if you ever want to eat food again... especially if that cook also happens to be your mother.

    About nuke batteries, yes satellites have them but its a different matter sitting on them. SSN are of course better then SSK with AIP, but only in the ocean as they are not that quite and to big for coastal and shallow waters.
    The Lada which this tread is about is missing the crucial AIP all of its modern foes have and that is a negative feature. The kilo 636 is a great boat and proven with doublehull but also lacking AIP.

    There were two competing projects to provide AIP to the Lada class sub... one uses a fuel cell that actually converts diesel fuel to generate electricity so it can run on the fuel already carried on the sub for the diesel engines. The other was a nuclear battery of rather small size that would be related to the Topaz types used on satellites... which also operate in an oxygen free environment... they have a liquid metal cooling system but generate electricity using a thermionic converter so they are not noisy. The first Topaz reactor from 1971 could generate 5Kw of power for 3-5 years using about 12kgs of fuel... the whole reactor weighed about 400kgs... so you could easily place several of them all around the ship without too much problem... they are not intended to turn the vessel into an SSN... they are just supposed to allow the sub to operate for much longer periods and also charge the main batteries without running the (noisy) diesel engines on the surface to recharge the batteries.

    For listening and waiting operations they would be ideal... one or two to power the Sonar and electronics and carbon scrubbers, and one to charge up the batteries... then when the batteries are charged use the batteries and turn off the nuclear batteries... or keep the conventional batteries charged up incase you need to move in a hurry.

    Until then the Lada is a 20 year old failure unlike the kilo which has been a succes story.

    Even if it never gets AIP the Ladas systems and sensors are at a level close to their best in their SSNs and are a level above most SSK systems... it is certainly better than the Kilo.

    Nothing wrong with cooks, they make great food and are a very important crew on board.
    Judging from your agressive attitude youre a farm boy or city dweller, unfamiliar with navys and the sea. Leave that for us who know what we are talking about.

    You have 0 knowledge of ASW. Actually it might be a proof that you are in sweedish navy, and probably the sonar operator.

    And yeah I'm from a big city with no experience at sea but at least I check for information before saying stupid things like "put 3 or 4 sub in the bottom and you will see everything".

    So glad you are both listening to my advice to not make this personal and to be mature about it... I like you both as members but that does not mean I wont give you each bans for breaking the rules, and not following the instructions of a mod...

    At worst at least you can agree to disagree... you don't have to become best buddies... but you are both in the EU together...
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    Post  runaway on Fri Jun 07, 2019 9:15 am

    Well the Lada class can not be said to be better then Kilo 636 only on tech specs. They have been trying to build this new monohull sub for 15 years, and its still not operational, not even after a massive redesign.
    Until the Lada class does something like the Krasnodar 636 sub did, it can not be considered a good sub.
    The Krasnodar sub dived of libya, evaded Nato asw frigates and aircraft, to days later strike targets in Syria with Kalibers ssm. And that without having to surface or snorkel to get or correct target coordinates. Thats impressive, and shows the 636 is one of the best ssk, only lacking AIP.
    If the diesel AIP doesnt work, shelf the thing and build stirlings. Sometimes you have to pull the plug on failed projects.
    Perhaps as you say, better to go with nuke batteries. If the can press nuke engines in missiles, a small nuke for limited power supply forna ssk wouldnt be to much of a problem.

    Yes thanks Gary, i still disagree about the perception from mr agressive that Swedish subs will be sunk after their first torpedo, and his idea that bottom laying subs if Gotland cant hear ships in sea of Åland. They can, and even classify what surface vessel it is, even an individual ship.

    Last, small sweden with shallow waters and a very small ssk fleet, managed to build and implement working AIP 20 years ago. Retrofitting it in older subs and refine it in newer classes, and russia dont even have in the pipes. Thats a failure for russian shipbuilders, scientists and descision makers.
    They should real quick integrate working AIP in Lada or Kalinas or 636 very quick, or be left behind on the international scene not only in terms of ssk submarine capabilities, but also on the ssk weapon market.
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    Post  Isos on Fri Jun 07, 2019 9:39 am

    I'm not being agressive and I'm not saying he is stupid neither insulting him. I just that what he said was stupid.

    "Stay on the bottom and listen to an entire sea" Isn't that stupid ?
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    Post  GarryB on Fri Jun 07, 2019 1:27 pm

    Well the Lada class can not be said to be better then Kilo 636 only on tech specs. They have been trying to build this new monohull sub for 15 years, and its still not operational, not even after a massive redesign.

    If it was only a minor upgrade it would have been in service for the last 15 years as an Improved Kilo design... it is like the difference between the Su-35 and the Su-57... except the new engines are not ready... in other aspects it is superior to the Su-35 except for max weapon capacity because of its stealthy nature requiring internal weapons carriage.

    Until the Lada class does something like the Krasnodar 636 sub did, it can not be considered a good sub.
    The Krasnodar sub dived of libya, evaded Nato asw frigates and aircraft, to days later strike targets in Syria with Kalibers ssm. And that without having to surface or snorkel to get or correct target coordinates. Thats impressive, and shows the 636 is one of the best ssk, only lacking AIP.

    The new Li ion batteries they are going to be using with the Lada class subs alone will give it much better underwater endurance and performance... but AIP will make it even better.

    If the diesel AIP doesnt work, shelf the thing and build stirlings. Sometimes you have to pull the plug on failed projects.

    Screw Stirlings it is a dead end technology when diesel AIPs are perfected... conversely nuclear batteries are only going to get better over time too so if they are going to shelve the diesel AIP it makes sense to use nuke batteries until the AIPs are perfected.

    If the can press nuke engines in missiles, a small nuke for limited power supply forna ssk wouldnt be to much of a problem.

    You could literally use them as batteries... load them in like giant AA batteries and after 5 or 10 years take them out and use their breeder reactors to reprocess the spent fuel rods ready to be used again... the ultimate rechargeable battery set up... very little waste and no carbon footprint... it is actually very green.

    Yes thanks Gary, i still disagree about the perception from mr agressive that Swedish subs will be sunk after their first torpedo, and his idea that bottom laying subs if Gotland cant hear ships in sea of Åland. They can, and even classify what surface vessel it is, even an individual ship.

    Real combat is chaotic so a single shot might not even be noticed... but then having said that the Russians are hardly going to want to invade and occupy Europe so they might just decide to seed the entire waterway with small tactical nukes to prevent any threat of attack via the sea on their coast... ie destroy potential threats before they become a problem...

    The underwater propagation of energy means even relatively small 2KT bombs going off at depth would do serious damage to anything under water with air cavities out to 10km or so... ( ie the internal portions of Subs or the lungs of divers...)

    Last, small sweden with shallow waters and a very small ssk fleet, managed to build and implement working AIP 20 years ago. Retrofitting it in older subs and refine it in newer classes, and russia dont even have in the pipes. Thats a failure for russian shipbuilders, scientists and descision makers.

    Yeah, it clearly wasn't a huge priority for Russia as they already have subs that can remain underwater for months at a time called SSNs and SSGNs... having working Boreis and Delta IVs is rather more valuable than having an AIP they can export for cash or to boost their SSK performance.

    It took a conflict with Georgia for them to realise the serious state their military was in, and now that they are seriously dealing with their problems they will probably get around to sorting out a diesel based AIP too... which on the face of it seems rather superior to western systems that require hydrogen to be stored on the ships. The Russian AIP system seems to use standard Diesel which is already stored on the subs and is already available at any decent sized port around the world without needing infrastructure added to handle or produce Hydrogen and store.

    Being first is nice, but sometimes not being first means you can think about it a bit more and make it better and simpler and potentially cheaper...

    They should real quick integrate working AIP in Lada or Kalinas or 636 very quick, or be left behind on the international scene not only in terms of ssk submarine capabilities, but also on the ssk weapon market.

    Yeah, the thing with sales and marketing is that if you rush something into use that is not ready then your competitors can use examples of failures against you to make your product look bad when it really is not.

    When it is ready perhaps... current performance is actually rather good... and certainly enough for them to decide to make a dozen of them... AIP can wait.

    "Stay on the bottom and listen to an entire sea" Isn't that stupid ?

    The sea in question is not that big, and modern sonar can detect targets at enormous distances under the right conditions... sound moves at about 1.6km per second in water so they would certainly have significant advantages for listening if they sit in one position and just listen... of course they wont hear 91RE1s coming at them at mach 2.5 on a ballistic path through the air to deliver a torpedo nearby, but then they are hardly in a position to build 50 SSKs and go on the offensive and try to sink the Russian Navy on their own.... what do you think they should do.

    Perhaps we can take as read that neither of you wanted to offend the other and just discuss... though if you want to talk about Swedish subs perhaps a separate thread might be in order?

    The all powerful USN found to its cost that arrogance can lead to serious embarrassment when you underestimate your opponent... the USAF had a similar experience against Indian MiG-21s and Su-30s.
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    Post  Isos on Fri Jun 07, 2019 2:03 pm

    The sea in question is not that big, and modern sonar can detect targets at enormous distances under the right conditions... sound moves at about 1.6km per second in water so they would certainly have significant advantages for listening if they sit in one position and just listen... of course they wont hear 91RE1s coming at them at mach 2.5 on a ballistic path through the air to deliver a torpedo nearby, but then they are hardly in a position to build 50 SSKs and go on the offensive and try to sink the Russian Navy on their own.... what do you think they should do.

    First of all that sea will be empty if a war happen and ASW warships will go very slowly to look for the sub or they will use active sonar to scan the sea and the subs will appear on their screen pretty fast.

    Second he sugests to surface and communicate with air force. Communications will be intercepted and even if they can't decrypt them they can easily triangulate the signal and found the sub quickly too. That something done since WW2.

    The only thing they could do is engage them quickly and try to destroy biggest russian ships. And that's the strategy of Sweeden navy. They also have stealth speed boats to do that. Their air force will be destroyed on the ground or grounded because airports will be destroyed.

    His idea of subs transmiting information to air force is not realistic.
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    Post  GarryB on Fri Jun 07, 2019 2:33 pm

    If they had any brains they would stay out of NATO and declare neutrality in any future major conflict in Europe, but I think the NATO forces would rapidly occupy them with claims of it being part of a defensive strategy or some such bullshit.

    I can't see Russia starting anything... they would gain little from a conflict there so it basically comes down to what the Americans and Ukrainians can start I suspect.
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    Post  runaway on Fri Jun 07, 2019 4:58 pm

    Of course we want to stay out of Hato, just hope they will stay out from us..
    Btw Sweden and Finland is deepening military cooperation, and Finland still has no subs cause Soviet union told them not to.
    And yes there is hyper messagers which been around for some time, they transmit in a burst so quick you cant triangulate them.

    Back to Ladas, from what i read the Kronstadth will be accepted by the navy this year and BF is her assignment. Lets see what she can do, if she is as good as Gary thinks, a subvariant of SU57.
    I think she will be pretty good even without AIP but thats remain to be seen.
    But, my gut tells me this is a one off design. Built in small numbers and the Kalinas will be the main SSK to succed the Kilos.
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    Post  runaway on Fri Jun 07, 2019 5:31 pm

    Meanwhile, the two last Lada-class Project 677 submarines will be delivered as scheduled — in 2018 and 2019. Afterwards Moscow will terminate the Project 677 Lada-class in favor of Project Kalina.

    The Lada-class, or Project 677, is a fourth-generation diesel-electric submarine based on the older Kilo-class submarine and does not currently incorporate an AIP.

    Moscow is cutting is losses, 677 is a failure and they are good to admit that.
    The new Kalinas will have working AIP, as has been standard on western subs for years.
    With AIP the Kalinas should be able to remain submerged for a maximum of 25 days.


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