Russian Helicopter ATGMs

Mir wrote:Question. The KH-38M is already mated with the Ka-52K. Granted it is larger and heavy but offers far superior range and capability - why not just stick with it? Both are available for export I presume?

Then you also get the Hermes...

I suspect the only reason the Kh-38 is mated with the Ka-52K is to allow that helicopter to fulfill some of the role of strike/naval aviation, when based on something like a Mistral or the new helicopter carriers in development. In the same way they made the Uran anti-ship missile available to that helicopter too.
In essence the Kh-38 is a full-blown replacement for the Kh-29, and a Ka-52K is not going to be carrying more than 2 of them. They'll be used likely in specialist tasks like demolishing some bridges ahead of an amphibious assault, or in an anti-radar role against short-range air defense, allowing transport choppers to get closer.

The Hermes meanwhile is an anti-tank missile that can also be used for pinpoint strikes.
While this new missile is its heavier counterpart and can be used against a greater range of targets. Defensive installations, concentrations of manpower, ammunition depots, pontoon bridges or anything else that will require more high-explosive than something like a Hermes or Vikhr or whatever.

Because this one's capability is different.

1. It has inertial guidance, GLONASS, and IR seekers (all in one)

2. It has multiple modes of usage. In close range, it can lock right when it's on pylons without command from the helicopter. In medium-range, the helicopter can guide it, and it will fly using inertial guidance for the first phase, then IR for final phase. In long-range (100km for domestic version), it can be guided from coordinates given from, say, UAV and the likes. hen when it appraoches the target, it can transmit the IR image to the UAV or someone else (third party), and they can pinpoint which target for the missile to hit (but it will still guide itself.

3. It's a fire-forget. Also the there are many warheads.

Lennox wrote:Because this one's capability is different.

1. It has inertial guidance, GLONASS, and IR seekers (all in one)

2. It has multiple modes of usage. In close range, it can lock right when it's on pylons without command from the helicopter. In medium-range, the helicopter can guide it, and it will fly using inertial guidance for the first phase, then IR for final phase. In long-range (100km for domestic version), it can be guided from coordinates given from, say, UAV and the likes. hen when it appraoches the target, it can transmit the IR image to the UAV or someone else (third party), and they can pinpoint which target for the missile to hit (but it will still guide itself.

3. It's a fire-forget. Also the there are many warheads.

Yes, but you can apply that to the Ch-38 as well.
F_P has a clue, Ch-38 is incorporated mainly due to maritime strike capabilities, it is less expensive and lighter Ch-35, still having a real decent punch with its 250kg warhead.
305 and Hermes share some spectrum of operations, but 305 seems to be a much more complicated and universal platform.
It is like combining capabilities in one piece. 305 is a downsized Ch-38, kind of

flamming_python wrote:
I suspect the only reason the Kh-38 is mated with the Ka-52K is to allow that helicopter to fulfill some of the role of strike/naval aviation, when based on something like a Mistral or the new helicopter carriers in development. In the same way they made the Uran anti-ship missile available to that helicopter too.
In essence the Kh-38 is a full-blown replacement for the Kh-29, and a Ka-52K is not going to be carrying more than 2 of them. They'll be used likely in specialist tasks like demolishing some bridges ahead of an amphibious assault, or in an anti-radar role against short-range air defense, allowing transport choppers to get closer.

The Hermes meanwhile is an anti-tank missile that can also be used for pinpoint strikes.
While this new missile is its heavier counterpart and can be used against a greater range of targets. Defensive installations, concentrations of manpower, ammunition depots, pontoon bridges or anything else that will require more high-explosive than something like a Hermes or Vikhr or whatever.

As far as I know Hermes is not just an anti-tank weapon - it is also more multi-role like the Canadian ADATS - but hopefully much more capable!
I'm beginning to think that the izd305[E] missile itself is probably a much cheaper alternative against less defended targets but still gives you a very good standoff range?

Mir wrote:

flamming_python wrote:
I suspect the only reason the Kh-38 is mated with the Ka-52K is to allow that helicopter to fulfill some of the role of strike/naval aviation, when based on something like a Mistral or the new helicopter carriers in development. In the same way they made the Uran anti-ship missile available to that helicopter too.
In essence the Kh-38 is a full-blown replacement for the Kh-29, and a Ka-52K is not going to be carrying more than 2 of them. They'll be used likely in specialist tasks like demolishing some bridges ahead of an amphibious assault, or in an anti-radar role against short-range air defense, allowing transport choppers to get closer.

The Hermes meanwhile is an anti-tank missile that can also be used for pinpoint strikes.
While this new missile is its heavier counterpart and can be used against a greater range of targets. Defensive installations, concentrations of manpower, ammunition depots, pontoon bridges or anything else that will require more high-explosive than something like a Hermes or Vikhr or whatever.

As far as I know Hermes is not just an anti-tank weapon - it is also more multi-role like the Canadian ADATS - but hopefully much more capable!
I'm beginning to think that the izd305[E] missile itself is probably a much cheaper alternative against less defended targets but still gives you a very good standoff range?

It's honestly confusing

I just noticed that this missile, the Izd. 305, shares the same designation with what we had earlier assumed to be the Hermes. There was some discussion on that last year I think. Apparently the Izd. 305 has already been used in Syria.

It looks similar enough to the missile that was spotted on the Mi-28NM, albeit with 4 fins instead of 2



But clearly the izd. 305 is not the Hermes. The Hermes has a booster to get it up to high supersonic speeds, is marketed against tanks, and would rely on drones or forward operators to laser-point targets or at least spot targets, with it basically being a fire and forget weapon.

This thing seems to be more optimized for allowing the operator to optionally guide it manually by traveling at a slow speed.

Now comparing them, they both seem to have similar weights and warhead weights

Dunno. Maybe this and the Hermes are part of a related family. Maybe the military rejected the Hermes and decided upon this missile instead. Maybe the old Hermes concept is gone and this is the new one.

ALAMO wrote:

Lennox wrote:Because this one's capability is different.

1. It has inertial guidance, GLONASS, and IR seekers (all in one)

2. It has multiple modes of usage. In close range, it can lock right when it's on pylons without command from the helicopter. In medium-range, the helicopter can guide it, and it will fly using inertial guidance for the first phase, then IR for final phase. In long-range (100km for domestic version), it can be guided from coordinates given from, say, UAV and the likes. hen when it appraoches the target, it can transmit the IR image to the UAV or someone else (third party), and they can pinpoint which target for the missile to hit (but it will still guide itself.

3. It's a fire-forget. Also the there are many warheads.

Yes, but you can apply that to the Ch-38 as well.
F_P has a clue, Ch-38 is incorporated mainly due to maritime strike capabilities, it is less expensive and lighter Ch-35, still having a real decent punch with its 250kg warhead.
305 and Hermes share some spectrum of operations, but 305 seems to be a much more complicated and universal platform.
It is like combining capabilities in one piece. 305 is a downsized Ch-38, kind of

I don't think you can apply that to the Kh-38 at all. The Kh-38 has many guidance blocks for each of its variants, and each guidance block comes with a specific combination of seekers (inertial and radar, or inertial and laser, ...). This one has only 1 guidance block, with all seekers packed in one (inertial, glonass, IR).  

The 305 is more similar to the Spike NLOS in fact. It's much more versatile than the Kh-38 with half the weight. And most of all, it has the NLOS capability which the Kh-38 doesn't. They are installing this on the Ka-52, but I can see it being used in future ground-based systems as well.

But it's true that the Kh-38 is incorporated to strike medium surface targets. The 305, if used in the same theater, will most likely be used against patrol boats only (its warhead is smaller anyway), so there's no overlapping of mission between the 2 here.

OK, technically it is a smaller Kh-38 with more seekers. But with that definition, every missile is either a scaled up or down variant of another missile with extra capabilities

As for the Hermes. I have read somewhere that the 305 is a variant of the Hermes, but I'm not so sure about that

According to the official data of the KBM announced at the Army-2021 forum, the 305E rocket has a mass of 105 kg, a length of 1945 mm, and a body diameter of 200 mm. The mass of the high-explosive fragmentation warhead is 25 kg. The solid-propellant engine provides a flight speed of up to 250 m / s, a declared controlled firing range of up to 14,500 m, and a flight altitude of 100 to 600 m.

Suspect that is export weapon data... in the Combat Approved video this weapon was described as having a flight range of 25km plus... perhaps the ~15km control range is for the export model only?

Question. The KH-38M is already mated with the Ka-52K. Granted it is larger and heavy but offers far superior range and capability - why not just stick with it? Both are available for export I presume?

Rather different weapon weight class... the Kh-38M is essentially a 40km range 250kg bomb, while this is more like something like the British Sea Skua...

Of course the 25kg warhead is a rather potent warhead for a missile this size there are a lot of targets this would make more sense against than a much lighter ATGM.

Then you also get the Hermes...

They are going to be spoiled for choice are they not?

Yeah, that made me wonder either dunno
The answer can be the warhead difference, but it is quite a questionable reason.

Sounds like a mature fully developed system that has been in service for almost 5 years now... why not test it and adopt it if it is any good...

The Hermes meanwhile is an anti-tank missile that can also be used for pinpoint strikes.
While this new missile is its heavier counterpart and can be used against a greater range of targets. Defensive installations, concentrations of manpower, ammunition depots, pontoon bridges or anything else that will require more high-explosive than something like a Hermes or Vikhr or whatever.

I agree, but Hermes can be carried four to a weapon pylon and its reported range for the helicopter launched model is about 20km so it is only slightly shorter ranged than the LMUR. Its warhead is about 30kgs so it actually has a better warhead than the LMUR too.

I rather suspect Vikhr and Krisantema and Ataka will be used against enemy armour, and the longer ranged missiles like LMUR and Hermes and perhaps SOSNA/Pine will be used against infrastructure targets and perhaps even aircraft and air defence batteries etc, but I think the LMUR sort of combines air to ground weapon with suicide drone... I could see the Russian model being lofted up high to get a view of the battlefield and then sort of falling on the targets homing in on the highest priority target for the kill.

F_P has a clue, Ch-38 is incorporated mainly due to maritime strike capabilities, it is less expensive and lighter Ch-35, still having a real decent punch with its 250kg warhead.

It also suggests that the GROM glide bomb based on the Kh-38 could also be used on these helicopters... more the powered model with the lighter warhead of course due to lack of flight speed and potential altitude from a helicopter launch than the all bomb model...

305 and Hermes share some spectrum of operations, but 305 seems to be a much more complicated and universal platform.
It is like combining capabilities in one piece. 305 is a downsized Ch-38, kind of

Or different products from different companies that are different enough to make both worth buying and using maybe.

A bit like the Su-33 being their choice of aircraft carrier based fighter but when India (ie FSB) orders MiG-29KRs (LMURs) then taking some examples and testing them and finding they are good and buying some yourself without having to pay to set up production makes a lot of sense.

I just hope it has not damaged the chances of other programmes like Hermes or the guided unguided rockets.

I just noticed that this missile, the Izd. 305, shares the same designation with what we had earlier assumed to be the Hermes. There was some discussion on that last year I think. Apparently the Izd. 305 has already been used in Syria

Yes.

I thought that it was possible that this LMURs missile is the payload stage of the Hermes which uses a solid rocket booster like the SA-19/-22 missile family it is based on... that would make sense because the Hermes should have a powered second stage to improve performance to allow terminal stage manouvering... which I believe they are working on now... but the ground launched Hermes with a range of 100km suggests a powerful solid rocket booster to get speed and altitude, while the helicopter model with no solid rocket booster has the much shorter range of about 20km...

If you are going to power the second stage it makes more sense to make it full calibre for extra internal space for fuel and warhead etc etc, while the unpowered rockets of the Pantsir and Tunguska and SOSNA missiles are narrow very low drag payloads on a large calibre solid rocket booster inside a launch tube.

When we saw the blurred view of this new LMUR missile it was clear it was not in a launch tube which made me think it was not Hermes because the protection of a launch tube is useful and it would allow multiple missiles per pylon rather more easily.

Looking at the tail fins however they look rather like the nose fins of the old model SA-15 missiles with the large fold hinges so maybe they can go in a launch tube when ground launched with a large solid rocket booster...

Very confusing.

The 305 is more similar to the Spike NLOS in fact. It's much more versatile than the Kh-38 with half the weight. And most of all, it has the NLOS capability which the Kh-38 doesn't. They are installing this on the Ka-52, but I can see it being used in future ground-based systems as well.

Rather different weapon weight class... the Kh-38M is essentially a 40km range 250kg bomb, while this is more like something like the British Sea Skua...

Of course the 25kg warhead is a rather potent warhead for a missile this size there are a lot of targets this would make more sense against than a much lighter ATGM.

Yes I did mention that the KH-39M is a heavier/larger missile. I think the Russian version has a range of up to 70kms and the glide version Kh-36 Grom-1 has a 120km range. A far better reach and punch compared to the izd305[E].

As noted by the general designer of the development, the new sample allows you to confidently hit all types of targets on the battlefield. "The missile can destroy both engineering structures and main battle tanks," he added.

The newest missile "Product 305E" for combat helicopters is serially produced

https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/12212663

I think the company that produces Hermes is different than the company that produces product 305.

I think the Russian version has a range of up to 70kms and the glide version Kh-36 Grom-1 has a 120km range.

AFAIK the version of the Kh-38 with the cluster munition warhead has a range of 80km, with the rest of them having a range of about 40km and so in a sense it is actually rather more a replacement for the Kh-25 family of air to ground missiles, but of course with a much more powerful warhead... so a cross between Kh-29 and Kh-25 essentially.

Certainly a massive overkill weapon for use against tanks.

As noted by the general designer of the development, the new sample allows you to confidently hit all types of targets on the battlefield. "The missile can destroy both engineering structures and main battle tanks," he added.

It says the missile is modular and can be adapted to the job... would assume that means different rocket motors for different ranges and different seeker options for different targets, and also different warheads for different targets... no indication of the options available though...

Or does he mean it can be carried by a variety of platforms like Yak-130 and Yak-152 etc etc and drones?

I think the company that produces Hermes is different than the company that produces product 305.

Yes... the company that makes the LMUR seems to also make Ataka and Shturm and Khrisantema... KBM...

https://www.kbm.ru/en/production/ptrk/

The company that will be making Hermes also makes Kornet and Metis and a lot of other stuff... KBP...

http://www.kbptula.ru/index.php/en/productions/multi-service-weapon-systems/germes-a

dino00 wrote:As noted by the general designer of the development, the new sample allows you to confidently hit all types of targets on the battlefield. "The missile can destroy both engineering structures and main battle tanks," he added.

The newest missile "Product 305E" for combat helicopters is serially produced

https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/12212663

Interesting, but strange. The name "Product" is applied only to experimental samples. So the rocket has already received a serial name, but what is it?

My obvious guess would be Kh-305E and I could be way wrong but the E designation for export tells me I have a fairly good chance to be right

dino00 wrote:As noted by the general designer of the development, the new sample allows you to confidently hit all types of targets on the battlefield. "The missile can destroy both engineering structures and main battle tanks," he added.

The newest missile "Product 305E" for combat helicopters is serially produced

https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/12212663

The cutting-edge missile dubbed Item 305E will replenish the family of 9M120-1 ‘Ataka’ missiles operational in the Russian Army

A successor for Ataka should be the Vikhr-1. The 305 is much heavier.

My obvious guess would be Kh-305E and I could be way wrong but the E designation for export tells me I have a fairly good chance to be right

The Izd number rarely has anything at all to do with the Kh number... for instance the Kh-25M has an Izd 71, while the Kh-25MP was Izd 711 and 712... with its two different seekers.

Kh-25M is the laser guided AS-10 Karen, and the Kh-25MP is two versions of the Kh-12 Kedgler ARM.

The Kh-29L and Kh-29T are Izd 64 and Izd 63, with the Kh-29TE being the Izd 63M... izd 77 is the Kh-31.

Interesting, but strange. The name "Product" is applied only to experimental samples. So the rocket has already received a serial name, but what is it?

It will have, but they clearly want to keep that secret.

The cutting-edge missile dubbed Item 305E will replenish the family of 9M120-1 ‘Ataka’ missiles operational in the Russian Army

Ataka was popular and widely used because it was cheap and accurate, but it would be a big step to go from one to the other... Ataka is a 6km range missile with about 800mm penetration and about 450m/s speed... this new missile is much slower but likely more expensive.

The Krisantema will likely replace the Ataka which in turn replaced the Shturm...

A successor for Ataka should be the Vikhr-1. The 305 is much heavier.

Note the pylon says APU-305... on fighter aircraft the APU-170 is for R-77s and the R-77s izd number is 170 and 180 depending on the model so it does not suggest anything except the izd number of the weapon it is specifically designed for.

GarryB wrote:

My obvious guess would be Kh-305E and I could be way wrong but the E designation for export tells me I have a fairly good chance to be right

The Izd number rarely has anything at all to do with the Kh number... for instance the Kh-25M has an Izd 71, while the Kh-25MP was Izd 711 and 712... with its two different seekers.

Yes the Izd 305E correlates with the factory designation. It's just a guess to humour Russian Patriot. As I've indicated in my initial post I could be completely wrong.

The export modifications of the latest Russian Ka-52M and Mi-28NM attack helicopters will receive a new multi-purpose missile codenamed item-305E, Deputy CEO of the High Precision Weapons Company (part of the state tech corporation Rostec) Sergey Mikhailov told TASS at the EDEX 2021 international defense show on Tuesday.

It has a guaranteed striking range of up to 14,500 meters

https://tass.com/defense/1368253

I rather suspect this weapon was designed from the outset to take advantages of the extended range of optics and radar for the upgraded attack helicopters... Havoc and Hokum... and will be used as a precision guided more powerful missile like the Kh-25 in the laser guided models would... except in a fire and forget version.

These new missiles would be good against very heavy tanks at extended range as well as small buildings or even light bridges, as well as HQs or command posts.

Would also be a useful weapon for dealing with HATO air defence systems at a distance where most could not respond.

I suspect Hermes will continue as its ability to be carried 4 to a weapon pylon would allow larger numbers of targets to be engaged, in addition to Krisantema and Ataka and Vikhr missiles for targets that don't need a bigger weapon.

The SOSNA-R missile is interesting too with its dual anti air and anti armour warhead and with it being a relatively compact tube launched weapon that could probably be carried in large numbers too.

Is it only me who considers this missile way too big to have <15km range only?

305E says it's for export so maybe 15km is the range - for export?

With this size, I would expect rather 30-40km envelope, and as Garry said, place it as a bunker/hard target striker. With 15km, it is somewhere between the Vikhr and Hermes, the only advantage would be the warhead weight.

Expect the 305 without the "E" to have that kind of range or they may just use the larger KH-38M with an even better standoff range?