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    Post  Guest on Sat Jan 07, 2017 9:00 am

    KomissarBojanchev wrote:
    Militarov wrote:
    KomissarBojanchev wrote:
    GarryB wrote:

    I am sure they will be testing Hermes on the Ka-52K as well as other platforms.

    What do you mean "will be". This mounting was shown back in 2009. If hermes-A is still not ready then there is a severe problem with the management that needs a stalin-esque purge. The time for "will" is long gone, now there is "ASAP".

    Placing empty containers on hardpoint does not equal missile development and integration on combat platform you know. Hermes is still not ready judging by recent reports and seems it wont enter service for a while, hopefully development will be finished though 2017 and IOC will start in 2018. Again, hopefully. Some firing tests were held in 2015. and 2016. that is what we know.

    Here you can gasp how far back whole project we call Hermes actually goes: http://rbase.new-factoria.ru/missile/wobb/hermes/hermes.shtml
    So you're saying the situation is even more effed up since the development is going for 13 FUCKING YEARS already? Tanks are developed and put into service faster.

    Actually Hermes-A was first time mentioned in 1995. in magazine "Авиация - Kосмонавтикa".
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    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Sat Jan 07, 2017 9:18 am

    Militarov wrote:
    KomissarBojanchev wrote:
    Militarov wrote:
    KomissarBojanchev wrote:
    GarryB wrote:

    I am sure they will be testing Hermes on the Ka-52K as well as other platforms.

    What do you mean "will be". This mounting was shown back in 2009. If hermes-A is still not ready then there is a severe problem with the management that needs a stalin-esque purge. The time for "will" is long gone, now there is "ASAP".

    Placing empty containers on hardpoint does not equal missile development and integration on combat platform you know. Hermes is still not ready judging by recent reports and seems it wont enter service for a while, hopefully development will be finished though 2017 and IOC will start in 2018. Again, hopefully. Some firing tests were held in 2015. and 2016. that is what we know.

    Here you can gasp how far back whole project we call Hermes actually goes: http://rbase.new-factoria.ru/missile/wobb/hermes/hermes.shtml
    So you're saying the situation is even more effed up since the development is going for 13 FUCKING YEARS already? Tanks are developed and put into service faster.

    Actually Hermes-A was first time mentioned in 1995. in magazine "Авиация - Kосмонавтикa".

    A heavy ATGM that is developed for 23 years. Simply unreal. I wont be surprised if plasma cannons exist by the time the Hermes A enters service.
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    Post  GarryB on Sat Jan 07, 2017 11:24 pm

    What do you mean "will be". This mounting was shown back in 2009. If hermes-A is still not ready then there is a severe problem with the management that needs a stalin-esque purge. The time for "will" is long gone, now there is "ASAP".

    Hahaha... I have a book from KPB tula from 2001 with mockups of the Hermes missile... do you think that means anything?

    If there is a will, and i hope there is, Hermes could be used on Su-34/Su-30 same way Brimstone is used on Typhoons.

    Would be interesting if they developed a smaller free fall model without the rocket booster to be released from high altitude from UCAVs... with a glider wing package or something.

    So you're saying the situation is even more effed up since the development is going for 13 FUCKING YEARS already? Tanks are developed and put into service faster.

    Grow up child.

    WTF is the point of putting into service a missile with a range of 20km when the in service attack helos that would carry it can't detect targets at more than 8-10km at best?

    Right now the Mi-28NM is getting near production and its mast mounted radar should be able to detect larger targets at 20-25km (ie buildings and bridges etc as well as tanks and IFVs). So now it starts to become useful... but even if it was ready right no in service aircraft could even use its capabilities... Vikhr is in service and much cheaper... as is Krisantema and Ataka.

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    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Sun Jan 08, 2017 7:59 am

    At least khrisantema is in service...
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    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Sun Jan 08, 2017 8:04 am

    GarryB wrote:
    What do you mean "will be". This mounting was shown back in 2009. If hermes-A is still not ready then there is a severe problem with the management that needs a stalin-esque purge. The time for "will" is long gone, now there is "ASAP".

    Hahaha... I have a book from KPB tula from 2001 with mockups of the Hermes missile... do you think that means anything?

    If there is a will, and i hope there is, Hermes could be used on Su-34/Su-30 same way Brimstone is used on Typhoons.

    Would be interesting if they developed a smaller free fall model without the rocket booster to be released from high altitude from UCAVs... with a glider wing package or something.

    So you're saying the situation is even more effed up since the development is going for 13 FUCKING YEARS already? Tanks are developed and put into service faster.

    Grow up child.

    WTF is the point of putting into service a missile with a range of 20km when the in service attack helos that would carry it can't detect targets at more than 8-10km at best?

    Right now the Mi-28NM is getting near production and its mast mounted radar should be able to detect larger targets at 20-25km (ie buildings and bridges etc as well as tanks and IFVs). So now it starts to become useful... but even if it was ready right no in service aircraft could even use its capabilities... Vikhr is in service and much cheaper... as is Krisantema and Ataka.

    They could've put it into service on the Su-25SM3, Su-30MK,, or on truck mounted launchers while being guided by UAVs.
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    Post  Flanky on Sun Jan 22, 2017 12:28 am

    I was also very keen to know Hermes project status. Because all i hear is talk and talk... But i have seen Brimstone capabilities: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oXyYXqX4Beo&t=49s
    If i were a person responsible for Hermes project development i would wait for Brimstone to be fielded and see its actual real capabilities and then finish Hermes development with equal if not better capabilities. I suspect this is probably what is happening. They are waiting to see how Brimstone will turn up to be and will adjust Hermes capabilities based on that?
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    Post  GarryB on Mon Jan 23, 2017 9:56 pm

    I don't think so.

    Hermes is being developed for a customer... the Russian military.

    I very much doubt the Russian military will be saying to KBP that whatever they make of Hermes it has to be better than Brimstone...

    the russian military will have a fairly specific set of requirements in terms of speed, guidance options, range and effect on various types of target types... and they will all be unrelated to Brimstone.

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    Post  ult on Sat Mar 04, 2017 2:30 am

    Vikhr-1 combat debut in Syria. Some footage of launches from 8 km.

    https://youtu.be/4vQbtHK1Dsg?t=2m28s

    УР-В means Guided Missile - Vikhr

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    Post  George1 on Wed Jul 03, 2019 12:25 am

    Missile codenamed ‘item 305" had been developed for the Mi-28NM helicopter may be received by Ka-52 also

    https://tass.com/defense/1066655
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    Post  Cyberspec on Thu Jul 04, 2019 5:38 pm

    George1 wrote:Missile codenamed ‘item 305" had been developed for the Mi-28NM helicopter may be received by Ka-52 also

    https://tass.com/defense/1066655

    Here's a lengthy article on the new missile....

    Tactical missile with multi-homing and bi-spectral infrared sensors...can be used against both stationary/mobile ground targets as well as selected maneuvering air targets (other helos?). Has a "Fire & Forget" and Top Attack capability

    Arrow https://topwar.ru/159600-zavesa-tajny-nad-izdeliem-305-priotkryta-na-chto-sposoben-groznyj-vzlomschik-dlja-nochnogo-ohotnika.html
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    Post  GarryB on Thu Jul 04, 2019 11:52 pm

    Interesting... short and medium wave IR sensors... they showed a few of those in association with Armata... the short wave IR can see through glass and water, while the medium wave has better range for detection...

    The sort of guidance they are talking about sounds rather like that suggested for the 9M100 short range missile with imagine IR sensor and a datalink to engage a range of targets both automatically and manually...

    Obviously most targets can still be engaged easily enough with Ataka and Krisantema with 8 missiles per outer pylon, with the former having up to 16 missiles and the latter having 8 missiles with the other pylon carrying its radar guidance antenna, but their new rocket pods and the new guidance packages for those rockets soon their attack helo pilots will be spoiled for choice when it comes to attacking targets on the battlefield...

    The diving top attack information is interesting because it makes these weapons much more effective against a range of targets... all the more so protected targets... with the US introducing javelin into service you would think the APS systems they use to defend their own tanks would be protected from diving top attack threats, but it seems to not be the case.

    Mention of dead zones in steep diving attacks on SAMs is interesting too... another reason to use layered anti aircraft systems...
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    Post  Sujoy on Sun May 31, 2020 12:20 am

    GarryB wrote:I very much doubt the Russian military will be saying to KBP that whatever they make of Hermes it has to be better than Brimstone...

    the russian military will have a fairly specific set of requirements in terms of speed, guidance options, range and effect on various types of target types... and they will all be unrelated to Brimstone.
    A nice feature of the Brimstone is that in certain situations a "man-in-the-loop" is not required so it becomes a fully autonomous missile. This is enabled through the fire-and-forget, MMW-only mode that can probably be enabled via a software role change

    This mode provides through-weather targeting, kill box-based discrimination and salvo launch. If the kill box was large and the missile had the ability to loiter to search the kill box, like a TASM or Harpy, then the operator could let the weapon search for and find the correct target. The operator could potentially launch the missile into a wide kill box where enemy operations were suspected, but with little to no information about specific targets. In those cases, the weapon could be reasonably said to be choosing its own targets.

    Brimstone’s most innovative feature is actually not an ability to loiter to search for targets, but rather the ability for the missiles to cooperate to ensure they don’t hit the same target.

    https://mbdainc.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/Brimstone2-Data-Sheet_Nov-2015.pdf

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    Post  magnumcromagnon on Sun May 31, 2020 3:31 am

    Sujoy wrote:
    GarryB wrote:I very much doubt the Russian military will be saying to KBP that whatever they make of Hermes it has to be better than Brimstone...

    the russian military will have a fairly specific set of requirements in terms of speed, guidance options, range and effect on various types of target types... and they will all be unrelated to Brimstone.
    A nice feature of the Brimstone is that in certain situations a "man-in-the-loop" is not required so it becomes a fully autonomous missile. This is enabled through the fire-and-forget, MMW-only mode that can probably be enabled via a software role change

    This mode provides through-weather targeting, kill box-based discrimination and salvo launch. If the kill box was large and the missile had the ability to loiter to search the kill box, like a TASM or Harpy, then the operator could let the weapon search for and find the correct target. The operator could potentially launch the missile into a wide kill box where enemy operations were suspected, but with little to no information about specific targets. In those cases, the weapon could be reasonably said to be choosing its own targets.

    Brimstone’s most innovative feature is actually not an ability to loiter to search for targets, but rather the ability for the missiles to cooperate to ensure they don’t hit the same target.

    https://mbdainc.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/Brimstone2-Data-Sheet_Nov-2015.pdf


    lol1 Amusing that you think that's impressive, P-500 Bazalt/P-1000 Vulkan had this ability 35-40 years before the introduction of Brimstone (which came in to service by 2005, while Bazalt was introduced by 1970 and it's design is from the early 1960's). The main difference is P-500/1000 did this decades before the introduction and subsequent ubiquitous distribution of digital electronics. Embarassed  Razz

    What's even more impressive is the Bazalt/Vulkan series flew 2.5 times faster than Brimstone (at Mach 2.5 obviously), flew 550-1000km range (compared to a measly 12-20km range for Brimstone), and could carry a 1 metric ton conventional warhead or a 350 kiloton thermonuclear warhead! Twisted Evil  I always find it amusing when users think the West pioneered autonomous missiles when the Soviets/Russians were working with autonomous munitions (from 4 decades ago Wink ) with characteristics orders of magnitude greater than their puny swarm munitions lol!
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    Post  Sujoy on Sun May 31, 2020 4:50 am

    magnumcromagnon wrote:lol1 Amusing that you think that's impressive, P-500 Bazalt/P-1000 Vulkan had this ability 35-40 years before the introduction of Brimstone
    P 500 was a cruise missile not an ATGM, but that aside, if this feature is not impressive then why did the P 500 have it?


    magnumcromagnon wrote:I always find it amusing when users think the West pioneered autonomous missiles
    Your words, not mine. Never claimed the West designed missiles before any one else. Here in India missiles were widely used in the 18th century itself against the invading Brits. https://bangaloremirror.indiatimes.com/bangalore/cover-story/over-100-missiles-of-tipu-sultan-found-in-a-shivamogga-well/articleshow/62575085.cms
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    Post  magnumcromagnon on Sun May 31, 2020 5:19 am

    Sujoy wrote:
    magnumcromagnon wrote:lol1 Amusing that you think that's impressive, P-500 Bazalt/P-1000 Vulkan had this ability 35-40 years before the introduction of Brimstone
    P 500 was a cruise missile not an ATGM, but that aside, if this feature is not impressive then why did the P 500 have it?

    It's not impressive because it's Western implementation is 40 years late. Bazalt/Vulkan being a AshM/cruise missile is irrelevant, what's important is that the technology was implemented decades before the widespread use of digital electronics. Modern $10 calculators from Wal-Mart have more processing power than the super-computers used by NASA to plot the Apollo Missions, but no one's praising the former more than they are praising the latter.....their's a reason for that. BTW, while we're speaking on space missions, this is how the West (The New York Times) perceived India's space program's late entry in to the Mars mission club:

    Russian Helicopter ATGMs - Page 6 1272429_Wallpaper2

    If the West can mock India for being 'late' in developing missile/rocket technology, why can't the West be mocked for doing the same?
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    Post  Sujoy on Sun May 31, 2020 5:51 am

    magnumcromagnon wrote:It's not impressive because it's Western implementation is 40 years late.
    West caught up 40 years late that's correct, but the full autonomous technology per se is impressive.

    I was trying to locate what is the Russian equivalent of the Brimstone that can be fired from helicopters or even fighter jets.

    magnumcromagnon wrote:BTW, while we're speaking on space missions, this is how the West (The New York Times) perceived India's space program's late entry in to the Mars mission club:

    Russian Helicopter ATGMs - Page 6 1272429_Wallpaper2

    If the West can mock India for being 'late' in developing missile/rocket technology, why can't the West be mocked for doing the same?
    I'm aware of this. India is not respected in USA/West and is mostly known for call centers, starvation, silly paganism, and of late rape. Indians generally capture headlines in the US for "stealing" American jobs.

    However, CIA had tried its best to sabotage India's space program. They were successful to a certain extent but not entirely

    https://www.news18.com/news/india/isro-spy-case-may-have-been-cia-plot-to-sabotage-indias-cryogenic-progress-former-scientist-1558579.html



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    Post  magnumcromagnon on Sun May 31, 2020 9:24 am

    Sujoy wrote:
    magnumcromagnon wrote:It's not impressive because it's Western implementation is 40 years late.
    West caught up 40 years late that's correct, but the full autonomous technology per se is impressive.

    I was trying to locate what is the Russian equivalent of the Brimstone that can be fired from helicopters or even fighter jets.

    It's called Hermes, it fly's 5 times faster (Mach 5) and 5 times farther (100km) than Brimstone.

    Sujoy wrote:
    magnumcromagnon wrote:BTW, while we're speaking on space missions, this is how the West (The New York Times) perceived India's space program's late entry in to the Mars mission club:

    Russian Helicopter ATGMs - Page 6 1272429_Wallpaper2

    If the West can mock India for being 'late' in developing missile/rocket technology, why can't the West be mocked for doing the same?
    I'm aware of this.  India is not respected in USA/West and is mostly known for call centers, starvation, silly paganism, and of late rape. Indians generally capture headlines in the US for "stealing" American jobs.

    However, CIA had tried its best to sabotage India's space program. They were successful to a certain extent but not entirely

    https://www.news18.com/news/india/isro-spy-case-may-have-been-cia-plot-to-sabotage-indias-cryogenic-progress-former-scientist-1558579.html

    People were even suggesting something similar was happening with the Union Soyuz with it's appearance of holes.
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    Post  GarryB on Sun May 31, 2020 10:32 pm

    A nice feature of the Brimstone is that in certain situations a "man-in-the-loop" is not required so it becomes a fully autonomous missile. This is enabled through the fire-and-forget, MMW-only mode that can probably be enabled via a software role change

    The reason for Brimstone is Soviet and Russian air defences making flying a plane or helicopter and using a shorter ranged missile would be suicide.

    I would think with the combination of camouflage and jammers including smoke grenades and other systems a man in the loop for guidance would actually be a good thing, but these low flying slow missiles would be easy targets for TOR and Pantsir.

    In those cases, the weapon could be reasonably said to be choosing its own targets.

    Indeed, so being a British weapon... how many American vehicles will it kill in a HATO exercise?

    Brimstone’s most innovative feature is actually not an ability to loiter to search for targets, but rather the ability for the missiles to cooperate to ensure they don’t hit the same target.

    Russian anti tank top attack submunitions that entered service in the mid 1980s had MMW radar sensors to detect tanks as they fell... firing top attack self forging fragment warheads down at the thin tops of enemy vehicles.... in about the mid 1990s they were upgraded to include an IR sensor so that vehicles that were already on fire would not be hit again... so that feature is not really very new.

    West caught up 40 years late that's correct, but the full autonomous technology per se is impressive.

    The requirement for the Brimstone is the existence of a very very strong air defence network operating above Russian forces that made such a weapon mandatory.

    Considering its specs... ie Hellfire based weapon... I am not sure it would survive long over a battlefield with Russian armoured forces operating there... TOR in particular should be able to smack these things down fairly easily and the new 32km range model should be able to take out the launch platforms too... if not then Pantsir-SM could do that.

    Even if it did get through is there any guarantee it will get past APS systems on the new Russian armoured vehicles?

    I was trying to locate what is the Russian equivalent of the Brimstone that can be fired from helicopters or even fighter jets.

    I would have said Hermes, but this new EO guided missile seems fairly similar.... though there wont be TORs or Pantsirs to shoot it down and I am not sure western APSs would be effective against it either.

    People were even suggesting something similar was happening with the Union Soyuz with it's appearance of holes.

    The west will break anything it does not control... if it can.
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    Post  Sujoy on Mon Jun 01, 2020 5:16 am

    GarryB wrote:I would have said Hermes, but this new EO guided missile seems fairly similar
    Is this a new upcoming EO guided missile?
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    Post  GarryB on Mon Jun 01, 2020 2:43 pm

    Refer to the posts above... number 134 and 135...

    By George1 and Cyberspec...

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