Abkhazia - S.Ossetia vs Georgia Situation

Asf wrote:

 Why would we carry out ethnic cleansing in that region ?

Why would you ever assaulted South Ossetia? Why would you stab the peacekeepers in the back? May be because of bitter hatred exists from the times of the first war with Abkhazia and South ossetia? Or may be due to political line of Saakashvilli, who wanted those regions being "brought back" at any cost? What would you do with ossetians if they resist to live in Georgia even after the "reunification"?

One has absolutly nothing to do with the other. You are confusing Saakashvilis goals with general society. The answer to that is simple. Saakashvili wanted to remain in power and distract from internal political tension and economic catastrophies. Georgia was on the verge of another revolution. As you can remember there were those massive demonstrations that were brutaly cracked down in 2007. That pretty much marked his end. He allready started to loose popularity and credibility just half a year after he took charge. Because Western media falsely declared him "Beacon of Democracy" and even Russian media wants to make him a popular ruler for the Georgians just to keep justifications and exactly such accusations look valid, doesn't mean any of that is even remotely true.

Every single Georgian who wasn't directly involved was caught by surprise and confused on what was going on in those days. Of course when Saakashvili claimed the country was being attacked by Russia, the people stood at his side and condemned Russia. What do you expect ? The possibility of that was ever present, especialy with all those border skirmishes. It has nothing to do with the population hating and backstabbing on someone.

I see no actual difference between them.

that's like saying you see now difference between communists and faschists or between party A and party B

So a bitter hatred and revanchism did exict in georgian society, right?

No. Because you know .... I kinda know my people and what they think either about Russians, Abkhaz and Ossetians and if something like that was present then it would be rather directed against the Abkhazians and not Ossetians .... kinda logical.

I'm not telling these guys were good, and whose guys were bad. But it was georgians who attacked the ossetians in 2008. And did it not in a chivalric manner

It certainly was not. It was a damn mistake attacking SO to begin with ! not because of Russian response but because it threw back what little diplomatic progress was achieved before Saakashvili ... and also because simply it didn't do anything but cause destruction and pain.

Asf wrote:
I'm afraid those war crimes wasn't the fault of military force alone, but the people who lead them via cell phones. And their political goal was if not a genocide as it is but very close to it

Agree to the first part. Second part is nonsense.

TheGeorgian wrote:

TR1 wrote:You might have a problem:

They are going to hold a referendum to join Russia or not.

I don't have much strong feelings one way or another, but Russia and Georgia need to put the past behind them and move on. Senseless to be neighbors and enemies, Especially with so many people living across the state borders of both nations.

Yes I know this. Hopefully it won't happen. I still think in the end Russia won't agree on that. Apart of not wanting it themselves they got to expect a massive deteriorate of the allready strained political relations between our two countries. It certainly isn't in the interest of any side.

Yeah it won't happen; S. Ossetia joining Russia that is. Hopefully Georgia can convince the Abkhaz and Ossetians to re-unite. But it won't come immediately, and it may not work at all.
Georgia has to be prepared for some very hard work and building up its economy, etc..

macedonian wrote:A bit offtop, but I really want to know, so bear with me please...

@TheGeorgian

Now after things have somewhat settled, how would you say Russia/Russians are perceived in Georgia?
For me personally, it's a tragedy that Georgia and Russia were driven to the point of actually fighting a war.
Only consolation is that it was a very brief conflict with not too much deaths on either side.

Russians per se are perceived like they allways were. We like Russians. There is no such thing as general hatred towards them. This goes vice versa as far as I'm aware. There are allways people on both sides who are confused by emotions but anger fades away over time. But from political view of the people, they are being seen as an occupation force.

On a side note though: the people living near the DMZs are frequently being assaulted or forced out of their homes or kidnapped. They probably not so happy. Especialy since the construction of those giant fences and walls that tend to "accidently" stretch into uncontested areas simply because the gov doesn't respond. Very regressive.

You are confusing Saakashvilis goals with general society. The answer to that is simple. Saakashvili wanted to remain in power and distract from internal political tension and economic catastrophies.

I didn't tell all georgians wanted ossetians dead. But still bitterness and nationalism which were already present became good tools for him. Am sure there were plenty of his supporters throughout society, who thought Georgia has to be reunited by the military power and bloodshed if needed

TheGeorgian wrote:Russians per se are perceived like they allways were. We like Russians. There is no such thing as general hatred towards them. This goes vice versa as far as I'm aware. There are allways people on both sides who are confused by emotions but anger fades away over time. But from political view of the people, they are being seen as an occupation force.

Thanks for that reply man. Appreciated.

TheGeorgian wrote:On a side note though: the people living near the DMZs are frequently being assaulted or forced out of their homes or kidnapped. They probably not so happy. Especialy since the construction of those giant fences and walls that tend to "accidently" stretch into uncontested areas because the GAF isn't present.

Didn't know about that, and if true that sh/t really needs to stop pronto!
One thing one can't accuse the Russians of is being *subtle*...and using soft power...that sometimes makes me truly sad/mad.
Russia needs to win back hearts and minds in Georgia, it's the only logical thing to do. At the end of the day people will have to live together with their neighbors, and America isn't Georgia's neighbor but Russia is. Hope cooler heads prevail on both sides...reconciliation will take time though.

გაგიმარჯოს!

Didn't know about that, and if true that sh/t really needs to stop pronto!

I think it's true. You know, if two nations shoot each other with SVDs for about 20 years, and then one of the nations break the unstable peace with a full scale assault, the situation won't come to a "hearthy hospitality". South ossetians tell about georgians lived in the South Ossetia: "We lived like neighbours those years and now they are supporting Saakashvilli's genocide, took weapons he gave to them, ect." So I wouldn't be that positive about "civilised georgians who wanted to restore a constitutional order but made few mistakes" and "ossetian criminals kidnapping people and placing the walls with russian support behind their backs". It must be hard for the Georgian to admit, but georgians deserved all this crap. it is a democracy after all, they took their responsibility for the leader they elected... kind of. Now it's only time to heal wounds

 if something like that was present then it would be rather directed against the Abkhazians and not Ossetians .... kinda logical.

We all know Abkhazia wasn't attacked only because of the Russian Army stopped Saakashvilli from solving problems by force.

that's like saying you see now difference between communists and faschists or between party A and party B

Here you go, an excuse for faschism. Now will you tell me about Stalin (who was georgian btw) killing millions and occupying Eastern Europe or something? Who was the communist one then - Saakashvilli or Gamsakhurdia? I'll tell you - both of them was ruthless politicians who used direct force and nationalist rhetoric for their benefit, and nothing more

 It was a damn mistake

It was not a mistake, it was the plan.

Agree to the first part. Second part is nonsense.

Nonsence? I see much sence for Saakashvilli in pushing ossetians to the Northern part of Ossetia or at least forcing them into submission by continious applying such war crimes as shooting civilians to unite the country and join NATO or whatever they proclaimed to do

Asf wrote:

Didn't know about that, and if true that sh/t really needs to stop pronto!

I think it's true. You know, if two nations shoot each other with SVDs for about 20 years, and then one of the nations break the unstable peace with a full scale assault it wo't come to a "hearthy hospitality". South ossetians tell about georgians lived in the South Ossetia: "We lived like neighbours those years and now they are supporting Saakashvilli's genocide, took weapons he gave to them, ect." So I wouldn't be that positive about "civilised georgians who wanted to restore a constitutional order but made few mistakes" and "ossetian criminals kidnapping people and placing the walls with russian support behind their backs". It must be hard for the Georgian to admit, but georgians deserved all this crap. it is a democracy after all, they took their responsibility for the leader they elected.

Regarding that bold part:

Why is it that people on this forum often post a claim as if someone else has made it, and in the same post they "bravely and logically" refute the said claim?!
I saw no one claiming that but yourself. And you are the one refuting it...it's like you're treating us with your monologue, right?
Well, thanks...but no thanks.

I merely wanted to know more about the situation, not take sides. And you ain't helping.
And if I did takes sides, I'll be on the side of whomever is right, not the side that I prefer (which is obviously Russia in this case). Sorry, but I don't think that way.
This might come as a shock to you, but I KNOW that tensions run high before/during/after conflicts and that it takes time for people to calm the fcuk down.
Something you need to think about as well.

To asf
Georgian SSR can be defined as a country. Why not? It wasn't sovereign and had to follow guidelines from Moscow, but it was up to them to govern themselves. Even in late 80s it looked more than a country than those horse abortion of a countries like Ukraine and Belarus of today.
And bout chechnya.
What separatists? Don't you remember after Chechnya declared sovereignity, Russians, Armenians and even some Chechens started fighting for survival or power. Anti-Dudaev forces were formed and later supported by Russia. They were the ones who wanted rejoin Russia.
They attacked Grozny along with Russian troops twice. After they were repelled Russia bombed military and administrational buildings.
When anti Dudaev forces lost momentum and eventually ability to wage war, Russians moved in. Before Grozny there were serious clashes too. Russian armoured columns were pounded by chechen artillery. Why they went to 'parade' to Grozny. Khuy knows. All the blame what happened to Russian boys in Grozny falls to politicians and generals. Yelcin already betrayed his OMON. Fucking bastard.

Why is it that people on this forum often post a claim as if someone else has made it, and in the same post they "bravely and logically" refute the said claim?!

It's a common tradition among the internet users   

Still, it's only the Georgian's words. He speak about "mistakes" made on the road to a good cause e.g. reunification of the country, and on the other hand describe ossetians as criminals who kidnaps people. What is he waiting now from ossetians after georgians have done? "Hearthy hospitality"?

Asf wrote:

Why is it that people on this forum often post a claim as if someone else has made it, and in the same post they "bravely and logically" refute the said claim?!

It's a common tradition among the internet users   

It's a sh/tty traditiion if you ask me. Kills the discussion.

Asf wrote:Still, it's only the Georgian's words. He speak about "mistakes" made on the road to a good cause e.g. reunification of the country, and on the other hand describe ossetians as criminals who kidnaps people. What is he waiting now from ossetians after georgians have done? "Hearthy hospitality"?

Well, what do you expect?
Of course people are going to promote their country, even show bias.
I know I would. And so would you.
The trick is to AT LEAST TRY to be as impartial as possible. And so far he has shown that.
The useless bickering is just killing the discussion.

Georgian SSR can be defined as a country. Why not? 

Because country isn't only a legal term or a couple of national myths. It's a matter of independancy, of a state system. Not every group of people can make their own country. It needs great time for a state to succeed, and most of modern states are just a puppets of true powers of the world, divided to be conquered and poisoned with their pathetic nationalsm and false uniqueness. They look like a ghetto neighbour gangs fighting each other because "South central is better than Groove Street".
Modern Georgia didn't have experience of living as a true country before, and all other fragments of the USSR dosen't. All those national struggles - in Azerbaigzhan, in Georgia, in Moldova, in Ukraine now, even in Russia - are because of the archaization of people's mentality due to dessolution of the true State into smaller parts which wasn't ment to be separated in a collosal machine of the USSR. It's like a modern Middle Ages with modern feodalism and barbarism - thoughts of progress and greater deeds are gone, placed by thoughts of a "Greater and United Failstan" or "Russia for russians only".

It's a sh/tty traditiion if you ask me. Kills the discussion.

True

flamming_python wrote:
Yeah it won't happen; S. Ossetia joining Russia that is. Hopefully Georgia can convince the Abkhaz and Ossetians to re-unite. But it won't come immediately, and it may not work at all.
Georgia has to be prepared for some very hard work and building up its economy, etc..

This is where I see a chance too. We simply should become attractive and kinda find back to eachother diplomaticaly. There's no other option and this is a very good one imho

Asf wrote:I didn't tell all georgians wanted ossetians dead. But still bitterness and nationalism which were already present became good tools for him. Am sure there were plenty of his supporters throughout society, who thought Georgia has to be reunited by the military power and bloodshed if needed

That is true. Saakashvili still has a lot of supporters. It's mainly because he bought their support. I personaly know one of those. Without Saakashvili she wouldn't have been able to build a business in Turkey. There are also some fanatics like that, who would prefer military solution. But those people speak for themselves. The majority doesn't share their views on the world.

Of course there is bitterness because of what happened in the past but people don't suddenly turn blood lusted and mad because some Politician occasionaly reminds them of it. People have other concerns, like plowing fields, somehow feeding their families and trying to find a job. Speaking of Saakashvili. You assume, don't know. He never tried to stirr peoples emotions against the separatists rather against Russians. He allways referred to the Abkhaz and Ossetians as brothers and that they are being mislead by trusting Russia. Apart of that, from 2006-2007 he was rather busy with somehow remaining in power than anything else. The 2008 was just a last act out of frustration because the opposition planned another massive rally against him. And sadly it worked.

macedonian wrote:
Didn't know about that, and if true that sh/t really needs to stop pronto!
One thing one can't accuse the Russians of is being *subtle*...and using soft power...that sometimes makes me truly sad/mad.
Russia needs to win back hearts and minds in Georgia, it's the only logical thing to do. At the end of the day people will have to live together with their neighbors, and America isn't Georgia's neighbor but Russia is. Hope cooler heads prevail on both sides...reconciliation will take time though.

გაგიმარჯოს!

That is true. America isn't our neighbour and we too should put a lot of efforst to normalise relations with them, what we currently are trying to. Without any bias, I can say that our goverment ( apart of sucking too much EU **** and not consequently prosecuting Saakashvili ) does everything they can to improve relations with Russia. Russia does seem interested in that too with allowing us limited trade into the Federation and also air travels etc. Yet they still condinue regressive border provocations and that doesn't speak much for cool headed. We can be as cool headed as we want, we don't even deploy any kind of military or police along the DMZ when such things happen ( it's also because if we did, we would recognize their newly drawn borders ). But actions like that will only increase tension over time and that should not happen. We are doing our part. Russian side could start with reverting that fence policy. We're in the 21st century and don't need another wall ....

გაგიმარჯოს!   

Asf wrote:
It was not a mistake, it was the plan.

When I said mistake I meant that they shouldn't have done that in first place.[/quote]

The majority doesn't share their views on the world. 

Well, it's always an active minority which rules to my regret

 He never tried to stirr peoples emotions against the separatists rather against Russians. He allways referred to the Abkhaz and Ossetians as brothers and that they are being mislead by trusting Russia.

Let me guess. It's like Ukraine - there are ukrainian commoners in the South-East who are mislead by russian terrorists and criminals and is waiting to be freed by ukrainian army, but still there are bombardments of civilian areas, because in reality people dosen't support the goverment. Seems like a working scheme.

Asf wrote:

The majority doesn't share their views on the world. 

Well, it's always an active minority which rules to my regret

Well that is true and unfortunate indeed.

Asf wrote:

Georgian SSR can be defined as a country. Why not? 

Because country isn't only a legal term or a couple of national myths. It's a matter of independancy, of a state system. Not every group of people can make their own country. It needs great time for a state to succeed, and most of modern states are just a puppets of true powers of the world, divided to be conquered and poisoned with their pathetic nationalsm and false uniqueness. They look like a ghetto neighbour gangs fighting each other because "South central is better than Groove Street".
Modern Georgia didn't have experience of living as a true country before, and all other fragments of the USSR dosen't. All those national struggles - in Azerbaigzhan, in Georgia, in Moldova, in Ukraine now, even in Russia - are because of the archaization of people's mentality due to dessolution of the true State into smaller parts which wasn't ment to be separated in a collosal machine of the USSR. It's like a modern Middle Ages with modern feodalism and barbarism - thoughts of progress and greater deeds are gone, placed by thoughts of a "Greater and United Failstan" or "Russia for russians only".

Can I ask You where did You learn what is definition of a country? It is clearly different then mine. Maybe I'm wrong? Tell me again why excatly Georgia wasn't a country as Georgian SSR?
No need for a epic tales about True state thing. Wrong person. So called true state did good job for us. My father was 1 of 4 children who survived socialistic paradise in Sibir.
You might be right about failed states and lack of purpose, but I remember life in soviet union too good not to feel very nostalgic.

Regular wrote:Can I ask You where did You learn what is definition of a country? It is clearly different then mine. Maybe I'm wrong? Tell me again why excatly Georgia wasn't a country as Georgian SSR?
No need for a epic tales about True state thing. Wrong person. So called true state did good job for us. My father was 1 of 4 children who survived socialistic paradise in Sibir.  
You might be right about failed states and lack of purpose, but I remember life in soviet union too good not to feel very nostalgic.

Oh, don't mind him...
He just want's to troll from time to time...he's OK though...(I hope).

Asf wrote:
Let me guess. It's like Ukraine - there are ukrainian commoners in the South-East who are mislead by russian terrorists and criminals and is waiting to be freed by ukrainian army, but still there are bombardments of civilian areas, because in reality people dosen't support the goverment. Seems like a working scheme.

I'm just pointing out his methods, not approving them.

Well on that matter yeah, looks very similar. But the conflict itself. I'd rather compare it with Abkhazia but only on the part were the separatists are getting aid from Russia but no direct intervention by Russian forces. But not by population, because in Abkhazia Georgians were the majority in the 90s.

macedonian wrote:

Regular wrote:Can I ask You where did You learn what is definition of a country? It is clearly different then mine. Maybe I'm wrong? Tell me again why excatly Georgia wasn't a country as Georgian SSR?
No need for a epic tales about True state thing. Wrong person. So called true state did good job for us. My father was 1 of 4 children who survived socialistic paradise in Sibir.  
You might be right about failed states and lack of purpose, but I remember life in soviet union too good not to feel very nostalgic.

Oh, don't mind him...
He just want's to troll from time to time...he's OK though...(I hope).

Why should I don't mind him? He is alright fella. Very informative when it comes to Russian weapons and equipment. If I don't agree with someone doesn't mean I hate the person straight away  I hate people without their own POV and opinions.

In the early stages of the operation Georgian army was fighting Ossetian volunteers

And if Russian forces invaded Alaska the first resistance would likely be armed civilians till the military got ready to fight back. If the Russian forces made their way to Alaskas capital city and started bombarding it with artillery... first aiming at any US military bases there and then targeting the general population I am sure most Americans will be the first to say... well we bombed the crap out of Japan and Germany and Korea and Vietnam and lots and lots of other places... who are we to say they are in the wrong... Hell I don't need to be a genius to realise the commander that ordered the artillery attack would face trial at the end of the war for war crimes...

Something like that is called a war crime, not genocide ....

Actually thanks to Kosovo we now have clarity... it is actually called ethnic cleansing.

Saakashvili made some effective PR and bought some EU parlimentarians on his side. His fellow regime members are not able to run around freely in Georgia.

So what you are saying is that he is protected and will likely never be punished for his crimes... that is not helping your goals at unification.

We will see about it. In the end it's all up to Russia.

Georgia has not given them many options.

Since when is large scale military operation a rescue mission ?

Grenada. In fact if you listen to the US state department most US operations on foreign soil are mounted to save democracy and peace...

We lost quite a lot of military there too and the blame game is carried out by both sides.

Except Russia didn't really get much of a choice in this situation... or do you think Russia should have left South Ossetia to its fate?

Don't take me wrong man, but when your city is invaded by a huge army you will take that opportunity to ambush and destroy them if they do it in such a clumsy way. It is called warfare.

Except when it is South Ossetia because they shouldn't resist the Georgian Army at all... right?

I am not "balancing" it, I'm pointing out the two-sided purpose of that. The Georgians especialy entered the city when it was evacuated. They most likely would have hesitated if that wasn't the case.

So what you are saying is that the Georgian forces started randomly shelling a large city and only entered it when it became clear people were leaving... of course I would suggest the vast majority didn't leave... they likely took shelter in their basements. I guess you mean if they hadn't appeared to leave the Georgian forces would have continued shelling?

the Shelling was to depopulation the area?

Only that nobody is claiming that. I allready pointed out in the beginning that the 2008 conflict particularly was all our fault.

Not Georgias fault. Suck Arse Milli Vanillis fault.

No. Because you know .... I kinda know my people and what they think either about Russians, Abkhaz and Ossetians and if something like that was present then it would be rather directed against the Abkhazians and not Ossetians .... kinda logical.

Except that the Abhazians were and are better able to defend themselves. After Georgian forces attacked South Ossetia the Abkhazians moved on Georgian forces and took back quite a bit of territory... all without Russian help.

We all know Abkhazia wasn't attacked only because of the Russian Army stopped Saakashvilli from solving problems by force.

Yes, If Russia had done nothing Abkhazia would have been next...

Without any bias, I can say that our goverment ( apart of sucking too much EU **** and not consequently prosecuting Saakashvili ) does everything they can to improve relations with Russia. Russia does seem interested in that too with allowing us limited trade into the Federation and also air travels etc. Yet they still condinue regressive border provocations and that doesn't speak much for cool headed. We can be as cool headed as we want, we don't even deploy any kind of military or police along the DMZ when such things happen ( it's also because if we did, we would recognize their newly drawn borders ). But actions like that will only increase tension over time and that should not happen. We are doing our part. Russian side could start with reverting that fence policy. We're in the 21st century and don't need another wall ....

You want good relations with Russia? You just had to ask me... I can tell you straight away.

First try Saakashvilli and put him in jail for a very long period... preferably life. Stop talking about NATO and make a public declaration you are not interested in joining NATO or the EU any time soon.

Countries have fears and interests. Russia is feeling encircled by US yes men... or should that be US yes countries.

Any other action on your part is just talk.

Of course that is what you can do to get Russia on side... to placate the South Ossetians and Abkhazians will require rather more work and rather more time... you might have to wait a generation... putting Saakashvili in jail for a long time will certainly be a very positive step for these two countries too however.

Can I ask You where did You learn what is definition of a country? It is clearly different then mine. Maybe I'm wrong? Tell me again why excatly Georgia wasn't a country as Georgian SSR?

Pretty obvious... Georgia was a state... or do you think western Australia is a country... or Alabama or Ohio?

GarryB wrote:
So what you are saying is that he is protected and will likely never be punished for his crimes... that is not helping your goals at unification.

How is that entirely our fault ? if he didn't flee and was still in Georgia, he'd be prosecuted like the rest. We don't simply kill someone like him to prevent him from escaping. Now Ukrainians and EU are holding their hands over him. That means EU isn't treating him as criminal while we have plenty of trials waiting for him. Including political murder, assasination, provoking and staging false operations, warmongering, torture, opression, destroying independent media and businesses. Selling lands without consolidating anyone. Allmost completly wiping out Georgia's agricultural capabilities. For EU it is enough of us to just mention his name and they allready drop a shitstorm of criticism on our goverment.

Georgia has not given them many options.

.... Poor Russians, evil Georgians.

Except Russia didn't really get much of a choice in this situation... or do you think Russia should have left South Ossetia to its fate?

1. I did expect Russian intervention.
2. Bloodshed should have stopped in any case
3. I do not approve any kind of foreign intervention into my country. Period.

Except when it is South Ossetia because they shouldn't resist the Georgian Army at all... right?

.... and I said or implied such a thing where .... ?

the Shelling was to depopulation the area?

Tskhinvali was being evacuated days before the war and that pretty much attracted Saakashvili to use momentum.

Use common sense please. There was no genocide. All you people are doing is at best assuming there were signs of it or there would have been one if the Russian army didn't intervene. That's not proving something that did not happen. Artillery barrage on Tskhinali is not ethnic cleansing. It's higly  inapropriate use of military force also GAF has it's own version on that matter. From Ossetian POV it could surely look like that because their town got damaged and fighting took place in half the villages in the area. But they are overplaying it even less than you are. Please stick to facts. FACT is that actual ethnic cleansing happened to the 15-20.000 Georgians who lived in Tskhinvali and Kokoiti made it more then clear that those IDPs will never return to their homes again and from Georgian POV there has been much more damage caused on Georgian habitats in South Ossetia and outside the region towards Gori, than anywhere where actual fighting took place.

You have three things that factualy happened. Georgian assault on Tskhinvali which was beaten back, which was partialy very inappropriate and undisciplined and caused a lot of damage.

Then you have Russian counterattack on Georgian held positions in villages etc which inlcuded air sorites not only there but all of Georgia to take out military capabilities and you have Ossetian soldiers / volunteers looting campaigns to sack or destroy Georgian villages along the way almost up to Gori. As sort of revenge to what happened to them.

The result of all that is plenty of civilian casualties on both sides. People are still missing and entire villages ceased to exist. Mostly on Georgian side. Will you denie that too .... ?

Except that the Abhazians were and are better able to defend themselves. After Georgian forces attacked South Ossetia the Abkhazians moved on Georgian forces and took back quite a bit of territory... all without Russian help.

It's not because they are awesome. It's because the 5th brigade left all it's positions there without a fight amidst the one sided ceasefire agreement. There were enough entrenchament and strategicaly advantigous hidden emplacements, minefields, traps, hidden weapon caches etc that the Abkhaz army would have never penetrated those defenses on their own.

Stop talking about NATO and make a public declaration you are not interested in joining NATO or the EU any time soon.

I very well know the Russian situation from their POV and I would probably seek a similar policy if I was in charge of that country. Only that in the meantime I would also improve industry / economy / infrastructure etc. Build agriculture, invest in technology, be less dependent on foreign countries  ....

I am against Georgia joining EU because it will end up like the rest of eastern countries in EU. Being a slave without voice.

Sure. You expect only things to be done from our side. How about offering us also what we want. Maybe get yourself into our positions as well for a moment .... ?

How is that entirely our fault ? if he didn't flee and was still in Georgia, he'd be prosecuted like the rest. We don't simply kill someone like him to prevent him from escaping.

Take active steps to bring him to justice. Have a trial... if he does not want to return and defend himself try him anyway. Freeze his assets.

ie take reasonable steps to make it clear what you think of his actions... otherwise it makes you look like you condone his actions and only pretend to be upset for image sake.

we have plenty of trials waiting for him. Including political murder, assasination, provoking and staging false operations, warmongering, torture, opression, destroying independent media and businesses. Selling lands without consolidating anyone. Allmost completly wiping out Georgia's agricultural capabilities.

Try him in absentia... if he chooses not to defend himself and hide somewhere chewing ties... then you as a taxpayer will not have to foot the bill for a long trial and South Ossetia know there is no chance he will come back and do it again and future Georgian presidents will not try the same thing so easily.

For EU it is enough of us to just mention his name and they allready drop a shitstorm of criticism on our goverment.

You know you are doing right by your people if the EU or the US criticises you.

.... Poor Russians, evil Georgians.

No. Poor cornered Russians given very little choice in the matter. Evil Suck Arse Milli Vanilli for dragging Georgia into a war it could never win, whose objectives could never be met even if it succeeded... what sort of South Ossetia do you think it would be occupied by Georgian forces... do you think displaced Georgian families could return and be welcomed with open arms?

3. I do not approve any kind of foreign intervention into my country. Period.

Most of the artillery fire was launched from Georgian territory... do you think the Russians are idiots?

Russia does not approve of its international peacekeepers on the ground by signed agreement with Georgia being slaughtered via artillery... the difference is that they had the military might to ensure their will be done. The best chance for you to get your wish of no Russian intervention was to not attack South Ossetia in the first place.

.... and I said or implied such a thing where .... ?

So now you are saying the South Ossetian forces had every right to engage invading Georgian forces.

Tskhinvali was being evacuated days before the war and that pretty much attracted Saakashvili to use momentum.

I have never read any evidence of that. If they didn't expect the attack why would they be evacuating?

You have three things that factualy happened. Georgian assault on Tskhinvali which was beaten back, which was partialy very inappropriate and undisciplined and caused a lot of damage.

Then you have Russian counterattack on Georgian held positions in villages etc which inlcuded air sorites not only there but all of Georgia to take out military capabilities and you have Ossetian soldiers / volunteers looting campaigns to sack or destroy Georgian villages along the way almost up to Gori. As sort of revenge to what happened to them.

The result of all that is plenty of civilian casualties on both sides. People are still missing and entire villages ceased to exist. Mostly on Georgian side. Will you denie that too .... ?

Well at least the claim that Russian forces were invading South Ossetia and Georgian forces went in to try to stop them is off the list... that is what Saakashvili was claiming to justify his treacherous attack on people he called his brothers.

When you set a fire in your brothers bedroom you can't claim innocence when your house burns down. The fact that your things got burned too...

But they are your brothers, you have treated them so well before and since... why would they attack Georgian villages except if maybe they don't feel you have been treating them like brothers over the last few years...

Or it could be a group of idiots like in the Ukraine who have taken things into hand for their own agenda.

When you start a war you have to take responsibility for the actions of idiots as well...

It's not because they are awesome. It's because the 5th brigade left all it's positions there without a fight amidst the one sided ceasefire agreement. There were enough entrenchament and strategicaly advantigous hidden emplacements, minefields, traps, hidden weapon caches etc that the Abkhaz army would have never penetrated those defenses on their own.

The botched attack on South Ossetia was an opportunity to take advantage of Georgia while its attention was elsewhere. Very much common sense though of the two sides the Abkhazian forces seem to be the better equipped and more capable.

Sure. You expect only things to be done from our side. How about offering us also what we want. Maybe get yourself into our positions as well for a moment .... ?

There was no point talking to Georgia when Saakshvili was in charge. Now at least they are listening. If you killed US peacekeepers do you think they would be listening even now? Ask Cuba if the US can hold a grudge and for how long.

Russia will be interested in good relations with Georgia, but they have plenty of time... Georgia isn't going anywhere... if they can't deal with you now then 20 or 30 years time is OK too.

To be honest I think it is more in Georgias interests for good relations with Russia, because South Ossetia is not going to come around any time soon if at all if she can rely on Russian support... if Russia starts pushing her back to the table with Georgia... well that would be your best chance... but as I say you are going to have to drop the "We both were in the wrong" line even if it is not totally untrue. Try to blame the car you ran into on the wrong side of the road... obviously if they hadn't been there there wouldn't have been an accident but at the end of the day in every sense of the words Georgia crossed the line and I thought despite all the crap on TV about Russia violating soverign territory and being too aggressove, that in reality they were very restrained and controlled... like I have mentioned... if Milosovich had shelled NATO peacekeepers there would have been regime change... and in the case of Kosovo Serbia had a UNSC resolution declaring Kosovo as being part of Serbia... Georgia has the word of a deceased dictator... ironcially reviled by NATO and the EU and the US who so virulantly support Georgia in its violent criminal attempts to reclaim South Ossetia.

GarryB wrote:
ie take reasonable steps to make it clear what you think of his actions... otherwise it makes you look like you condone his actions and only pretend to be upset for image sake.

Look, I have a bit more political insight on that. The Georgian Dream movement compromised/partialy still compromises the majority of opposition parties which ran against Saakashvilis national party. That overwhelming force was able to kick them out. Now what we have is that this coalition is the ruling pary and the only real opposition left to the goverment is .... the national party. The problem here is that whenever we prosecute one of Mishas entourage, there is an outcry from US/EU. Accusation of political persecution against the opposition which is supposedly "regressive", "undemocratic" blah blah and demonize us, continuesly interrupting the legal court processes. I have to admit though, every time our goverment pussys out and bends to their demands to keep it a bit down with putting Saakashvili and his gang to trial makes me mad and the entire population too. They literaly threaten us to cease all processes regarding EU if we keep imprisoning them.

But I think our goverment will be more consequent on that matter once we signed the association agreement tomorrow. They are not stupid. They know EU membership isn't anything realistic for the next decades. The most important goal right now was to have access to the European market which will be beneficial for the entire region, not only Georgia.

The best chance for you to get your wish of no Russian intervention was to not attack South Ossetia in the first place.

heh .... we agree on that.

So now you are saying the South Ossetian forces had every right to engage invading Georgian forces.

from their POV sure. Starting such a war shouldn't have happened in first place. People just tried to defend their homes.

Well at least the claim that Russian forces were invading South Ossetia and Georgian forces went in to try to stop them is off the list... that is what Saakashvili was claiming to justify his treacherous attack on people he called his brothers.

I didn't even believe that nonsense the days the war started. Saakashvili himself said on TV he was "restoring constitutional order" and I couldn't believe what I was withnessing, instantly concerned about where Russians were and what they are gonna do. Then when Russians intervened he came up with the invasion story because he had lost.

When you start a war you have to take responsibility for the actions of idiots as well...

it is just so frustrating when something like that happens and you can't do shit about it.

The botched attack on South Ossetia was an opportunity to take advantage of Georgia while its attention was elsewhere. Very much common sense though of the two sides the Abkhazian forces seem to be the better equipped and more capable.

Abkhaz are definitly more capable but we are talking about the Kodori Gorge. When Kitovani was in the Gorge the Abkhaz didn't even dare to come down on him and he had a single battalion controling that area. The Georgians took those heights and deployed an entire brigade. Plus unlike Kitovani, they were busy fortifying that area over the years. Now the Abkhaz can benefit from that ....

Russia will be interested in good relations with Georgia, but they have plenty of time... Georgia isn't going anywhere... if they can't deal with you now then 20 or 30 years time is OK too.

would be nice if a bit sooner ....

But I think our goverment will be more consequent on that matter once we signed the association agreement tomorrow. They are not stupid. They know EU membership isn't anything realistic for the next decades. The most important goal right now was to have access to the European market which will be beneficial for the entire region, not only Georgia.

Well, you have to do what you have to do, but until those guilty parties are in prison or there are warrants for their arrest don't expect Russia to suddenly treat you like an ally... everybody paid a high price for MS and his stupid desperate actions... but if you look at Russias calls for UN meetings and international discussion which the US basically blocked and the fact that the US immediately demonised Russia and made Georgia look like the victim suggests strongly MS was encouraged in his stupid actions.

It was also a huge wake up call for Russia... that was when they really started to realise the US has no intentions of being friends or allies and that no matter what Russia is the bad guy and no matter what... whether it is in Kosovo or Syria or South Ossetia or the Kurile Islands it is pretty clear that no matter what the situation the US will look to see where Russia fits in and then choose an opposing position... Serbs are the bad guys, Syrian Dictator is the bad guy with Al Quada being the good guys!!!, and If Japan had used for to take back the Kurile Islands then the US would have backed Japan to the hilt.

The best thing for Russia is that it spurred real action to create a conventional military force that could defend Russias interests anywhere inside her own territory or on her own borders. Hense a need for helicopter carriers and an ongoing military spend.

heh .... we agree on that.

A no brainer for you... a Georgian... for me, a New Zealander on the other side of the world... but not obvious for MS... but I suspect it was part of the plan from your US allies... they wanted to push Russia away from Georgia and a tiny chance of another conflict on her borders that might turn into a guerilla war for a couple of years... or reignite seperatist unrest in the whole general area...

it is just so frustrating when something like that happens and you can't do shit about it.

It should be a mandatory world wide law that if a head of state or elected government wants to drag their country into a war that all the children of members of government and opposition should be conscripted and have to serve in front line positions. I think when they have something personal at stake they will be a lot less keen to use military force to solve political issues.

You don't amputate a leg to help with a psychological disorder.

would be nice if a bit sooner ....

I agree... Russia doesn't need new territory... what it desperately needs is better relations with all its neighbours.

Interesting documentary about abkhazia..



The country is truly a tourist place and amazing nature and lakes. it will be a fantastic zone to develop and modern resorts and continuation of
Sochi for Eco-Tourism.