Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:
Can you read what you have written and think about it. There is enough material even on this forum that shows what you have said was a combination of falsehood an irrelevance.
Until you have studied this matter and have shown to yourself and others the reason that your assertion was completely wrong, you should refrain from posting anything.
So you basicaly trying to tell everyone that history lies.
I don't know what silly things you have read or are trying to proof but it's sad to see that.
You say "Georgia" didn't exist before 1991. Even in USSR there was the Georgian Soviet Socialist Republic, an autonomous state within the Soviet Union. It succeeded the First Georgian Democratic Republic which only lived for a short time from 1918 till it got annexed by the Soviets in 1921. Before that brief independence we were part of the Russian Empire. I guess what you are referring to is the time period before the Russian Empire annexed the region in 1801. Yes it is true. Georgia as such was not a unified country for centuries after 1500 when internal struggles basicaly lead to a downfall of the Georgian Kingdom. It was split in dominions that constantly fought for supremecy in the region. Pretty much like the Holy Roman Empire was plit into hundreds of autonomous states that had their own laws, currency etc. Not in that extreme scale though. A century before that the kingdom got invaded by Timur Lang but the Timurids were not able to keep control from the second half the end of the century. Before that invasion Georgia was still a unified Kingdom for some time before it was struck by the first Mongol invasion in the 12th century. Even in those periods the kingdom didn't cease to exist, it was simply a vassal to the Mongol empire. Before that invasion the Kingdom of Georgia was flourishing under Queen Tamar and before her rule under King David the Builder. Before the Kingdom of Georgia there were several Georgian kingdoms that existed, that of Lazika, the first unified kingdom that existed for 250 years before it got invaded by the Byzantinian Empire and before that there were the ancient kingdoms of Colchis and Iberia that existed for like 1600 years. Iberia survived even a bit longer. If you are referring to that than it is true, in that time period there also was no "Georgia" as like the modern term for a unified state of Georgia. You should rather educate yourself better on our history if you want to talk about it. Otherwise it's just ignorance and a big portion of bias. The fact that "Georgia" as in a kingdom or a region of Georgian speaking peoples and states did repeatedly exist for more than just a "few centuries" is evidence enough that you should stop believing some made up "evidences" from whereever or your own. If you insist not believing in actual history than you should also question that of your own country, even it's existence. 882 created by Varangians from Scandinavia, for us well known people we often hired as mercenaries long before they founded Kievan Rus. So please be serious.
Werewolf wrote:
I know the content because those georgian soldiers filmed their atrocities with their own mobile phones, laughing into camera and cheering while shooting into houses with 12.7mm and into cars. This is not out of content because there are several of such videos with bodies shown dead in cars
No, you don't. Yes I know that one tape that exists showing some asshole randomly shooting into empty houses. Idiots like him do exist in armies. There might have been several cases of that and yes even shooting at empty buildings is a crime. But you want people to blindly assume and believe that such single doings are clear and believable evidence for such a heavy accusation as is ethnic cleansing. Civilian cars were used by the armed militias too. I can't post links right now because I'm a fresh member but there is a video where you see a bunch of Georgian troops observing from their position not more than a few dozen meters how vans and UAZs are getting out of the city. One of the UAZ was constantly moving a few meters out of cover and back again. The soldiers speaking were assuming that it were militia who were transmitting coordinates of their positions. If they wanted to kill everyone in that city, they would have tried that. Yet in the videos you only see how they are walking down the streets by huge numbers and not sweaping through buildings to round up and kill civilians. Most of the time they responded to random shooting from some of the buildings. Yet I repeat that I won't denie or rule out from my side that something like that infamous happy shooting at buildings could have happened more than just once.
But still blamed russia in BBC and CNN media for destroyed civilian blockhouses and civlian casualties before even any russian troop has fired a single shot? Good observers or good flase flag operation. One of those two things is certain that civilian houses were hit by Georgian army and blamed on Russia, either observers are shit and try to twist things so they don't have to admit its their own fault or it was intentional.
I'm not even trying to justify such propaganda. However Saakashvili has it's own version of the story, the Georgian military has it's own version of the story and Russian side has it's own version of the story and there is also other versions and common sense. Of course you will stick solely to the Russian version. I don't expect anything else.
I repeat it if you both still don't get it, i speak about my own knowledge from actual footage and not just some articles without proof, that i have not seen them, i do not deny that No atrocities happened, i just have not seen intentional mass killing.
Yes but wait. There is the problem with what you do. You say you saw dead civilians who got killed by artillery and agree it is a crime. Damn Grozny was bombed back to stone age comrade. How do you call that ? there were thousands of people living in that city and it got obliterated. All the footages I saw, there was nothing left of a city only rubble and tens of thousands of civilians reportedly died in those two conflicts. How did they die then ? by the insurgents ? you make wild accusations against us when you have a slaughterhouse in your own backyard. How does that work ? you claim you saw the Chechnya war. Now you've also seen the 2008 war. When comparing them both, you come to the conclusion that Georgians were committing "
intentional mass killing" and "
genocide" with a handfull of supposed evidense and an artillery strike which all in all combined resulted in the death of 50 (HRW) to 160 civilians (Russian version), who might as well could have mostly been volunteers ? I get what you are doing, you don't need to repeat yourself .... but you are just blindly assuming things from Russian media circus too. It's not only West that spreads propaganda.
You may address this to yourself but not to me, i am pretty open about what i say and i choose my words properly. The point you want to address calling me biased you as a georgian about georgian war can't be unbiased yourself, if we are talking plain about "taking sides" or "one sided".
Sure. That is a valid assumption. That can be said about any side. I accept that because it is true.
you as a georgian tell me who where they attacking sindie South Ossetia, i've never heared not from german, not from british or american and not from russian sources anything about militans or terrorists like in Chechnya since TR1 brought the comperision up, like you too? So who were the georgian army attacking?
In the early stages of the operation Georgian army was fighting Ossetian volunteers ( where did I call them "
terrorists" - it's not the same ! .... ) in Tskhinvali and Russian MC. Even every single Russian military analytical report and essay confirms that ( though I wouldn't take someone like Mikhail Barabanov serious any time soon because his biased report is filled with 20% objective military analysis and the rest silly patriotism and propaganda ). I don't believe you won't find any of those anywhere.
GarryB wrote:Collateral damage is not genocide.
Collateral damage is not genocide... don't know about local police in your area but the local police where I live dont use Grads to "save them" from terrorists.
Something like that is called a war crime, not genocide ....
And there is your problem... perhaps is saaka ordered the bombing of Moscow or your home village you might think no longer being popular in Georgia would be enough punnishment, but perhaps the people of South Ossetia and Abkhazia might not want good relations with Georgia while Saaka is a free man there or not held to account....
...By not prosecuting him they are saying what he did was not a crime... can you not see how that might be counter productive to any future reconciliation?
You are both wrong. Saakashvili is more than wanted prosecuted and punished for his crimes. But the EU is protecting him and the government can't do shit unless they want to loose prospect of joining EU. Saakashvili made some effective PR and bought some EU parlimentarians on his side. His fellow regime members are not able to run around freely in Georgia. Every time they show up they get almost beaten to death. That's why most of them top decision makers are in protective custody before trial
Sounds like South Ossetia and Abkhazia might think it is in their interests to formalise good relations with Russia.
We will see about it. In the end it's all up to Russia.
The attack on South Ossetia was not a rescue mission... it was a Waco mission... burn the place down. They might not have gone out of their way to kill the South Ossetians but clearly the plan was to make them leave... perhaps to block the Roki tunnel to prevent Russian support coming in.
Ofc it wasn't a rescue mission. Since when is large scale military operation a rescue mission ? the goal was to capture the region, dislodge the from our constitutional POV illegitimate autonomous goverment and replace it with the "Ossetian goverment in exile" or provisional goverment, not to commit a senseless massacre on the population as the Russians like to portray it.
While the Georgians killed were all innocent civilians.... keep playing the blame game... I am sure that will help them change their minds and want to rejoin Georgia again.... NOT.
Nobody here said there were only Georgian civilian casualties. We lost quite a lot of military there too and the blame game is carried out by both sides.
First of all you might notice in these threads that there are actually quite a few members calling attacks on Baghdad and Afghanistan and Palestine a crime... and if you remember correctly when Russian forces first rolled in to Grozny, they did so in columns without artillery or air support and the Chechens ignored that fig leaf and massacred them. If it had been Prague or another city that wasn't fortified for war it would have been a fait acomplait and the Russians could have taken the city without a shot being fired and no buildings being shelled... it was a choice the Chechens made for themselves.
Don't take me wrong man, but when your city is invaded by a huge army you will take that opportunity to ambush and destroy them if they do it in such a clumsy way. It is called
warfare.
In comparison the unprovoked Georgian attack on South Ossetia started with artillery aimed at Russian peace keeper bases, and then seemed to have become random.
Yes that was a crime also from my POV. We agree on this one.
It is amusing you balance the issue by claiming the South Ossetians started evacuating a city that was being shelled by Georgian forces... what bastards they are!
I am not "balancing" it, I'm pointing out the two-sided purpose of that. The Georgians especialy entered the city when it was evacuated. They most likely would have hesitated if that wasn't the case. Otherwise Tskhinvali would have been attacked months ago and that attack wasn't really a well organized, calculated and executed one. Saakashvili smelled the chance and he reacted quickly.
Got to take Georgian side on this one. They got their act right, and now it's decent country were Russians and Russian speakers are welcomed.
But no... Russia has Chechnia and Abkhazia has 1993 and only Georgia is a victim here.
Only that nobody is claiming that. I allready pointed out in the beginning that the 2008 conflict particularly was all our fault.
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