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    Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

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    Austin

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    Post  Austin on Sat Mar 02, 2013 5:59 pm

    Mindstorm wrote:
    2) Hydrodynamics polymers delivering systems (to greatly enhances ,momentarily, submarine outer hull's hydrodynamics coefficient so to avoid enemy torpedo eventually not seduced/outranged)

    Those polymers system were known to be in development and Norman Polmar has hinted at it in this book but these systems were never operationalised on any submarine most certainly on Schuka/Akula class for sure.


    I should add here though Soviet/Russian submarine has many qualities that were non appreciated by Western Defence Journal types but professional in US who were not biased did appreciate qualities that russian submarine had lik greater depth , speed , energy , non-acoustic sensors.

    Most if the weakness in these areas where over come by west with Sea Wolf and Virginia class submarine which had similar depth , greater speed and other qualities that Soviet submarine enjoyed.

    Acoustically Speaking Akula class were equal or even superior to LA class and other western SSN but Sea Wolf and Virginia were acoustically far superior specially at high speed.

    Russia would come on par with most modern US submarine with Yasen class and perhaps Yasen-M might even give it some advantage acoustically speaking against most modern Western SSN.

    Ofcourse if the entire Zircon-S and 5th gen torpedo program is sucessful then 885M will be a different beast.
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    Naval Weapon Systems & Technology - Page 3 Empty Paket anti-torpedo hard kill system

    Post  TR1 on Mon Apr 29, 2013 10:41 pm

    Learn something new every day - the Paket apparently is the only anti-torpedo hard kill system that uses its own torpedoes to hit incoming targets, in service anywhere in the world.
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    Post  GarryB on Tue Apr 30, 2013 10:35 am

    But that can't be right... the super sophisticated western navies have everything and the Russian and Soviet Navies had nothing.

    For decades the Soviets/Russians have had anti torpedo capability with their RBU depth charge launcher systems specifically designed for anti torpedo use. Now they are adopting the PAKET to the same role so they will have even better performance in terms of anti torpedo protection.... ho hum. russia
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    Hachimoto

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    Post  Hachimoto on Tue Apr 30, 2013 11:08 am

    @TR1 Can you post some information about this anti-torpedo system specially the characteristic you mentioned please ?
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    Mindstorm

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    Post  Mindstorm on Tue Apr 30, 2013 3:18 pm


    Hachimoto wrote:@TR1 Can you post some information about this anti-torpedo system specially the characteristic you mentioned please ?


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    Post  NickM on Tue Apr 30, 2013 8:27 pm

    Hachimoto wrote:@TR1 Can you post some information about this anti-torpedo system specially the characteristic you mentioned please ?

    The the AN/WSQ-11 Surface Ship Torpedo Defense System on board US ships can detect any type of torpedos . A combination of Tripwire DCL , The hard-kill Anti-Torpedo Torpedo , SLQ-25A can destroy any incoming torpedo .

    Not to mention the Aegis Combat system that can nullify any incoming cruise missiles . No other country has anything remotely close to the Aegis and third world countries like China & India are at least a generation behind.

    US cruisers , destroyers are therefore immune to any missile or torpedo threats.
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    Austin

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    Post  Austin on Tue Apr 30, 2013 8:47 pm

    NickM wrote:Not to mention the Aegis Combat system that can nullify any incoming cruise missiles . No other country has anything remotely close to the Aegis and third world countries like China & India are at least a generation behind.

    US cruisers , destroyers are therefore immune to any missile or torpedo threats.

    lol! lol! Laughing Laughing
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    Post  TR1 on Wed May 01, 2013 12:10 am

    lol.

    This guy keeps delivering.

    Hey Nick, does it hurt that the US has no hard-kill system equivalent to the Paket?
    The ATT is not in service.
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    Post  NickM on Wed May 01, 2013 7:09 pm

    TR1 wrote:Hey Nick, does it hurt that the US has no hard-kill system equivalent to the Paket?

    Your ignorance is hilarious Smile The Rapid Prototype Torpedo Warning System and Countermeasure Anti-Torpedo System gives US ships a hard-kill method for eliminating incoming torpedo attacks . Aegis as I have already said can neutralize any cruise missiles in combination with the EW systems which are unparalleled in the world.

    So all of a sudden neither can your torpedos hit us nor can your cruise missiles . What's wrong TR1 , cat got your tongue Smile
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    Post  TR1 on Wed May 01, 2013 8:59 pm

    Show me an in-service US Navy anti-torpedo torpedo you dolt Smile

    Changing your tune eh?

    Btw, Soviet ships have had RBUs cued to sonar for decades. OMG INVINCIBLE FROM TORPEDOS!!111
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    Post  GarryB on Thu May 02, 2013 2:39 am

    US cruisers , destroyers are therefore immune to any missile or torpedo threats.

    The HMS Sheffield had both Sea Wolf and Sea Dart missiles... both systems on paper could easily deal with sea skimming anti ship missiles like Exocet... the Sea Wolf could hit individual 114mm artillery shells, yet the Sheffield was sunk by an Exocet.

    Having a counter system does not make it 100% certain of an effective counter... even the S-400 has all sorts of jammers and short range SAMs and decoys defending it.
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    Post  dionis on Thu May 02, 2013 6:04 pm

    NickM wrote:

    Aegis as I have already said can neutralize any cruise missiles in combination with the EW systems which are unparalleled in the world.


    And the star-spangled bannnnerrrrrrrrrrrrr!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    "Neutralize any cruise missiles" - dubious claim.

    More importantly, it CANNOT neutralize them with *100%* efficiency. That's the end of the story. Complete immunity even if favorable scenario = fantasy.

    I'd keep off the Discovery Channel.
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    Austin

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    Post  Austin on Tue Jul 16, 2013 7:10 pm

    Any idea why missile/rocket is being fired from Vikramaditya ?

    https://i.imgur.com/BU2a2qJ.jpg
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    Post  GarryB on Wed Jul 17, 2013 3:11 am

    Any idea why missile/rocket is being fired from Vikramaditya ?

    It is a 140mm rocket, of which there are about 4 types.

    Depending on the type of rocket it is either deploying radar chaff (for active radar homing anti ship missiles), IR elements (to create an IR decoy of the ship), or two types of smoke/IR/light reflecting rockets that create false targets to confuse laser, IR, and optically guided threats.
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    Post  Austin on Wed Jul 17, 2013 5:21 am

    Thank You Garry , Hope you are right

    What is the designation of the system ? And any link to it for pictures etc
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    Post  GarryB on Wed Jul 17, 2013 9:34 am

    It is the larger of two system types used by the Russian Navy that has a calibre of 82mm and is for use on smaller ships.

    The 140mm rockets have a much longer range than the 82mm rockets which operate from 500-1,800m or so from the vessel that launches them.

    The 140mm rockets are used in the PK-2, PK-10, and PK-16 launchers.

    The A3-TSP-47 radar decoy rocket is designed to protect surface ships from weapons fitted with radar guidance systems by setting up at an assigned area a confusing or distracting false target in the form of a chaff cloud ensuring confusion of detection and target designation radar systems and the distraction of the attacking weapon to a false direction.

    The A3-TSO-47  low temperature decoy rocket is designed to protect surface ships from weapons fitted with IR guidance systems by setting up at an assigned area a hot false target in the form of a cloud of smoldering elements that distract the attacking weapons at the stage of target search.

    The A3TSO-47 visual optical decoy rocket is designed to protect surface ships from weapons fitted with visual optical and laser guidance systems by setting up at an assigned area a visual optical false target in the form of a cloud of burning pyrotechnic elements and special light reflectors that ensure the suppression of visual optical and laser detection systems.

    The A3-TSTV-47 TV decoy rocket is designed to protect surface ships from weapons fitted with TV and laser guidance systems by setting up at an assigned area a water surface false target in the form of a contrast aerosol cloud ensuring the confusion of TV and laser homing heads and the distraction of attacking weapons to a false direction.

    False targets generated by these rocket systems can be set up from 500-6,000m from the ship.

    The rockets are about 40kgs in weight each and are about 1.1m long.

    Naval Weapon Systems & Technology - Page 3 18post10

    This is a different angle of the same type of rocket and launcher...

    The result of their use looks like this:

    Naval Weapon Systems & Technology - Page 3 0_407010
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    Post  TR1 on Wed Jul 17, 2013 9:54 am

    To add on what to garry said:

    http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-Dnq4-erDT8Q/T8Sdp7AUZnI/AAAAAAAAAQw/yUMssE7IDMY/s1600/IMG_7376.JPG

    Here is a pic of the same launcher on another part of the ship.
    This system can be found all over the Russian navy.

    http://warfare.be/0702ey70/update/feb2005/3/pk2.jpg
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    Post  GarryB on Wed Jul 17, 2013 10:56 am

    Nice photos TR-1...

    This one:
    Naval Weapon Systems & Technology - Page 3 Pk210

    In the top left is the PK-2 launcher, the top right shows three types of munitions... to the top left the tubes with the flat tops and tiny round base plates that look like mortar tubes are 120mm calibre jamming/decoy rockets, while the top left large rockets are the 140mm rockets I described, and the small rockets in front are the 82mm rockets.

    The bottom left is a normal photo of the decoys being launched while the bottom right photo likely shows the IR view an incoming missile would have.

    Note the 82mm rockets have the designation A3-TSP-60U, and A3-TST-60U, while the 120mm rockets are for the PK-10 system for very close in threats to mask the ships own signature so that it looks like the decoy signature and have designations like A3-SR-50, A3-SO-50, and A3-SOM-50.

    Here are some other pics:

    Naval Weapon Systems & Technology - Page 3 Images10

    Naval Weapon Systems & Technology - Page 3 Pk1610

    PK-16 launcher (82mm rockets)

    Naval Weapon Systems & Technology - Page 3 Pk10_d10

    Naval Weapon Systems & Technology - Page 3 Pk10-210

    PK-10 (120mm rockets)

    Also found some info here:

    http://warfare.be/db/catid/333/title/decoy/
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    Naval Weapon Systems & Technology - Page 3 Empty Any idea why missile/rocket is being fired from Vikramaditya ?

    Post  Austin on Wed Jul 17, 2013 5:08 pm

    Nice Info . Thanks TR1 , Garry
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    Naval Weapon Systems & Technology - Page 3 Empty 3R41 Volna Why it's so different than 5N63S

    Post  Stealthflanker on Wed Jul 24, 2013 2:21 pm

    Naval Weapon Systems & Technology - Page 3 4934505320_b235e3aeb8

    Well..this is the 3R41 Volna used in Slava and Kirov for guidance of S-300F.

    One thing i wondered for quite long time was.. why this Radar was designed that way... I mean well the land based 5N63S for S-300P family use backplane feed where the transmit and receive feed is located behind the phased array antenna. But 3R41.. it use different arrangement referred as reflective phased array where the feed is located ahead of the array.

    Would be nice though if one can enlighten me on that subject.
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    Post  Sujoy on Wed Jul 24, 2013 9:39 pm

    The phasing principle of the 3R41 Volna is different from a conventional phased array radar  .

    Instead of individual transciever elements, 3R41 Volna has a central feed (the nib on the center of the radome) which reflects phase-changed transmissions off a flat surface. 3R41 operates in the J-band.  3R41 applies it's phase changes to a flat array that acts as a reflector for the feed mounted on the radome .

    The small hemispheric radome is associated with the missile control system. The three long dielectric features on the sensor’s front are a  part of some sort of diagnostic subsystem, or an ECCM device .
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    Post  Stealthflanker on Thu Jul 25, 2013 1:42 pm

    Sujoy wrote:The phasing principle of the 3R41 Volna is different from a conventional phased array radar  .

    Instead of individual transciever elements, 3R41 Volna has a central feed (the nib on the center of the radome) which reflects phase-changed transmissions off a flat surface. 3R41 operates in the J-band.  3R41 applies it's phase changes to a flat array that acts as a reflector for the feed mounted on the radome .

    The small hemispheric radome is associated with the  missile control system. The three long dielectric features on the sensor’s front are  a  part of some sort of diagnostic subsystem, or an ECCM device .

    I know..as i mentioned above the Volna is a Reflective phased array. The question is why it has to be like that.. Given that the S-300 family use backplane feed like one in 5N63S.

    I don't think there are any technical difficulties in making naval variant of the 5N63S..considering that today's Kirov use navalized 30N6 with backplane feed.

    There should be another reason which make me curious.
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    Post  Vann7 on Thu Aug 29, 2013 6:30 pm

    GarryB wrote:Actually that is not true... AEGIS is a naval based battle management system that takes data from sonar, radar and other sensors and combines them into a subsurface, surface, and air picture to help defend carrier battle groups at sea.

    Only recently has it acquired any ABM capability.

    The Russian Navy equivalent of AEGIS is called Sigma and pretty much does the same thing of combining data from subsurface, sea, land, air and space assets to provide a complete picture of the battlespace and can be used to direct the defence of assets.

    Even the smallest new Russian Corvette is being fitted with Sigma and the standard cruise missile VLS and SAM VLS systems. A tiny Corvette could use data from a carrier 500km away to launch a 400km range SAM at a target 300km away from the Corvette and 200km from the carrier using data from the carriers AWACS aircraft... not many other corvettes have that capacity.

    im wondering about your opinions about the claims of an user in another forum about Russia navy defense capabilities.. He told..


    Both AEGIS and the UK/French PAAMS are designed to counter "saturated attacks" of high performance, supersonic anti-ship missiles and aircraft. No Soviet missile would penetrate the defense systems of ANY AEGIS or PAAMS equipped warship.

    I would put PAAMS slightly above AEGIS in terms of air-defense capabilities - however AEGIS will regain parity or even exceed PAAMs in the near future (upgrades etc).

    Apart from AEGIS and PAAMS there is no other naval air-defense system that even comes close.

    The Chinese type 052C and future 052D destroyers are equipped with advanced AESA multi-function radars and long-range SAMs to provide similar capabilities of Western AEGIS/PAAMS systems. But we can safely assume that the Chinese "AEGIS" is still inferior to the Western systems. The Indian Navy is also developing its own "AEGIS" system in the new P-15A (Kolkata-class) and P-15B destroyers. But again, like the Chinese system it is still inferior to Western AEGIS and PAAMS. Germany and the Netherlands have also developed their own "AEGIS" like systems.

    The Russians as of yet have not developed any capable naval air defense systems and their fleet will still be vulnerable to anti-ship missiles like the Harpoon or Exocet.

    He seems a fanboy but not sure of any of his claims.. whats your take about his comments?
    it was in defense pk forums . can post the link of the conversation if you want.

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    Post  TR1 on Thu Aug 29, 2013 10:03 pm

    Russian fleet vulnerable to pedestrian missiles like Exocet and Harpoon?

    Excuse me while I laugh my ass off.

    ALso I love the certainty that he has that no Soviet missile would penetrate AEGIS.
    Sounds like a fanboy alright.
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    Post  GarryB on Fri Aug 30, 2013 1:04 pm

    No Soviet missile would penetrate the defense systems of ANY AEGIS or PAAMS equipped warship.
    An Iranian Airbus almost got through an AEGIS destroyers defences... the first shot they tried to fire failed and it was the second missile they fired within Iranian waters that murdered the 290 odd people on board.

    Moskit was in service in the early 1980s and it underflew AEGIS easily... the only defence the US Navy had on their AEGIS class cruisers that would get a shot at a Moskit was Phalanx and it is being replaced by SEA RAM because it can't hit low flying targets.

    No Soviet missile would penetrate the defense systems of ANY AEGIS or PAAMS equipped warship.
    A very strong statement. Does he know that on paper those Exocets used by Argentina against British warships should also have failed miserably as Britain had Exocets and knew all about them and the Sea Wolf was on paper able to shoot them down with ease... yet so many ships sunk.

    Apart from AEGIS and PAAMS there is no other naval air-defense system that even comes close.
    You are paying too much attention to what he is actually saying and ignoring what he is not saying.

    He clearly has an interest and has researched AEGIS and PAAMS, though to what level is not clear, the problem is clearly that he obviously knows nothing about Russian Naval air defence systems or development in that direction... what he really should be saying is:

    Apart from AEGIS and PAAMS there is no other naval air-defense system that I know of that even comes close in performance to the performance that I believe AEGIS and PAAMS has.

    Which I think you will agree can fail on two counts... over estimation of the performance of the systems compounded by his ignorance of any other system including new Russia weapons and their deployment.

    For years the USN has been quite worried about Moskit and its replacement Onyx, and also the Klub missile with a long range subsonic carrier missile with a mach 2.8 high speed rocket propelled terminal component... not to mention the service entry in the next decade of the hypersonic Brahmos II and Zirconium missiles... currently every new vessel made for the Russian navy is being fitted with UKSK launch bins from Corvette right up to carrier and all the subs as well to carry supersonic anti ship missiles and Tomahawk equivalents.

    The Russians as of yet have not developed any capable naval air defense systems and their fleet will still be vulnerable to anti-ship missiles like the Harpoon or Exocet.
    A single KASHTAN-M turret can engage up to 4 Harpoons or 4 Exocets at once and apart from light patrol boats I don't know of any Russian or Soviet vessel that just has one CIWS.

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