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    Russian targeting systems/IRST/FLIR technology

    ahmedfire
    ahmedfire


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    Post  ahmedfire Mon Mar 23, 2020 2:22 pm

    Soviets built in most of their targeting systems inside their aircrafts which were dedicated for ground strikes .

    Is this by any way limited the attack angles ?

    I was reading this article from Carlo Kopp and found  the below quote

    The ventral electro-optical targeting system provides a limited capability and is only suitable for medium/high level deliveries, due to its limited field of regard. It is likely to be soon supplemented by a licence built Thales Damocles thermal imaging and laser targeting pod. Russian sources claim that the Russian MoD licenced the pod design, expected to be built by the Ural Optical Mechanical Plant (UOMZ), after exposure to the design during the integration of the pod on the Malaysian Su-30MKM Flanker H. Future candidates for the pod, other than the Su-34, are the Su-35-1/35BM Flanker F, the Su-27SM/SMK Flanker B+ and upgraded Su-24M2 Fencer. The pylon installation, given hardware commonality between the SU-30MK and Su-34, is likely to be identical for both types.

    http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-Fullback.html

    Then i found the below link from 2008

    Russian fighters to use Thales Damocles targeting pods

    Second question :
    Aircraft A has IRST and EO systems like SU-35
    Aircraft B has IRST and EO system but also using outer pod

    Is using the outer pod gives a more cabability along with IRST and EO ?
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Tue Mar 24, 2020 1:04 am

    AFAIK they are developing their own targeting pods, there is one being developed by MiG for the MiG-35 which could also presumably be used by other models of the MiG-29 family, and for the Su-57/35/34 family.

    There are a range of recon pods they already have developed that are carried by Su-24MP and Tu-22M and Il-76 EW aircraft types, but they are also developing jammer and recon pods for the Su-34 as well AFAIK...

    Regarding attack angles for fixed internal sighting systems generally the internal systems have fields of view and angle capacities that exceed the weapons carried...

    In some cases the aircraft carrying a laser guided bomb might not be marking the target itself even though it has a laser target marker...

    You have to be careful regarding Mr Kopps information... not that he is biased too much... he is generally very open minded when it comes to Soviet and Russian equipment, but a bit like me he likes to speculate and does it so often sometimes he assumes his speculations are probably true.

    For instance the tradition of multi sensor air to air missiles and missile families is something the Soviets liked to do... the R-27 family in particular is enormous... and so speculation about ramjet powered R-77s and IR guided R-77s is tempting despite a complete lack of actual hard evidence...

    Sometimes things are made worse by people having a laugh... I remember seeing a photo of an Mi-24 hind armed with an R-60 Aphid missile on an underwing pylon... the ground crew were having a laugh... for years afterwards it was believed they used such weapons on Hinds... which was not true of course.
    Isos
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    Post  Isos Tue Mar 24, 2020 3:14 am

    For instance the tradition of multi sensor air to air missiles and missile families is something the Soviets liked to do... the R-27 family in particular is enormous... and so speculation about ramjet powered R-77s and IR guided R-77s is tempting despite a complete lack of actual hard evidence...

    It's not speculation. Ramjet powered r-77 was designed and they presented it in a airshow. But there isn't IR version which can be explain by the fact that r-77 complete the r27 instead of replacing it because it lacked an active radar version while the other version were very good and also by the fact that the first model was not good enough and the r-771 was introduced by russian air force and not soviet air force. The development was stoped because of USSR fall.

    Now we will see what they will do with r-77M.
    ahmedfire
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    Post  ahmedfire Tue Mar 24, 2020 6:07 am


    Regarding attack angles for fixed internal sighting systems generally the internal systems have fields of view and angle capacities that exceed the weapons carried...

    I guess if it was like that ,we would see the SU-35 and MIG-35 with complete internal system like the previous soviet aircrafts . Sapsan-E thermal imaging and laser targeting pod will be carried externally .


    In some cases the aircraft carrying a laser guided bomb might not be marking the target itself even though it has a laser target marker...

    I guess you mean in case of bad weather or any thing that can obstacle the laser beam .
    But i'm talking about the design itself , the embedded targeting systems inside a supersonic aircraft will increase the cost , the pilot may needs also to change the angles to keep the target illuminated .





    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Wed Mar 25, 2020 4:49 am

    I guess if it was like that ,we would see the SU-35 and MIG-35 with complete internal system like the previous soviet aircrafts . Sapsan-E thermal imaging and laser targeting pod will be carried externally .

    It is likely the Su-35 and MiG-35 and other models will eventually get targeting pods as their IRST systems are optimised for aerial targets but not targets on the ground.

    The Su-34 has built in systems but may also use pods if they become sophisticated enough.

    I guess you mean in case of bad weather or any thing that can obstacle the laser beam .
    But i'm talking about the design itself , the embedded targeting systems inside a supersonic aircraft will increase the cost , the pilot may needs also to change the angles to keep the target illuminated .

    Russian and Soviet laser guided weapons are not like western systems... it is also not a case of pointing a 152mm gun in the general direction of a target and then lasing the target and the shell will automatically hit.

    Basically the target marker will generate the targets coordinates and physical location and communicating with the launch platform (artillery piece or aircraft) it will calculate the angle and direction the shell needs to be fired or the altitude and speed and direction the bomb must be released from to actually hit the target... the launch platform with then signal the target marker when the round is launched/released and then the computer attached to the laser target marker counts down the flight time and then about 3 seconds before impact the laser turns on and the incoming weapon corrects its path and hits the target.

    A target like a tank with laser sensors given 3 seconds warning would have trouble deploying an effective smoke screen to hide...

    For direct fire laser guided weapons the lasing time is one second, so laser homing rockets use the last one second of flight time to correct to hit the target...

    Note laser beam riding missiles are something totally different...
    ahmedfire
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    Post  ahmedfire Wed Mar 25, 2020 5:06 am


    the computer attached to the laser target marker counts down the flight time and then about 3 seconds before impact the laser turns on and the incoming weapon corrects its path and hits the target.

    Here the laser is coming from the target marker which is fitted inside the aircraft ..right ? if yes then we will again go back to the angle of that marker at that moment .
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    limb


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    Post  limb Tue Nov 17, 2020 6:43 am

    How has the Russian IRST tech progressed? Is it still the world leader?

    I read that the French PIRATE IRST has 150+km detection range at front aspect, but I can't find any info on the latest Russian IRSTs.

    Also general russian IR imaging tech thread
    Isos
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    Post  Isos Tue Nov 17, 2020 7:01 am

    PIRATE is for Eurofighter Typhion. Not french at all.

    French have the OSF for the Rafale.

    Su-35 IRST has a 90km range (for export). IIRC it is the same tech as the one on Rafale.

    It will be quite difficult to compare and find open data on them. That's quite secret. Only countries operaring bith system can make real comparison like Egypt or India.
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Wed Nov 18, 2020 1:30 am

    As mentioned it is pretty hard to compare really but I would suggest one factor you would need to keep in mind... detecting a target at 150km range is a useful thing but if it is stealthy and your radar guided missiles can't get a lock what are you going to do about it?

    AFAIK only the French and Russian aircraft have heavy long range IR guided AAMs that could take advantage of such systems.

    Obviously detection distance is totally dependent on the target... I would suggest a super cruising target would be easier to spot at range because of the altitude and friction heating.

    I seem to remember that the MiG-25 was able to detect SR-71s with IRSTs at ranges greater than their radar could detect them, which was well over 150km, but not many other objects have that sort of flight profile.

    The R-40TD was designed specifically for head on shots at SR-71s and potential mach 3 bombers...

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