Project 20380(5): Steregushchy Corvette #2

Not Aldar but a nice close-up of a Uran being launched

20385 with D500




   Corvettes of the 20380 family - while few in number, but only for now - have become a real adornment of the Russian Navy, which they adequately represent from Baltiysk to the Gulf of Seine (and sometimes to the Gulf of Aden) and from Vladivostok to Singapore. Improving their performance characteristics from modification to modification - from "Dirk" to "Redoubt" and "Redoubt" with "Zaslon", from "Uranus" to "Onyx" and "Caliber-NK" - corvettes, as planned, become the main ships of the near the maritime zone, capable of operating outside of it at the same time. To date, some concern is caused only by the lack of reports of firing of the Reduta under the control of the Zaslon at 20380 mod. III and 20385, as well as one uncorrected defect,overshadowing overall favorable impression of the project. At the same time, there is confidence that in the very near future successful firing will be completed, and the defect will be eliminated.

   When familiarizing with the performance characteristics of the KRV pr. 20380, the insufficiently high speed is striking. The press services of the Ministry of Defense and the Northern Shipyard give up to 27 knots ( link 1 , link 2 ), the Almaz Central Marine Design Bureau - up to 26 knots (project 20382, version 2 - link 3 ), while the original world standard for warships the main classes (except amphibious) have long been a full speed of 30 knots. In the era of rocket weapons, the difference of 3-4 knots is not as fundamental as it was 100 years ago, but even now it is the cause of a number of inconveniences.

   First, it complicates (if not becomes impossible) the solution of PLO missions against nuclear submarines of a potential enemy. Official (from navy . mil ) underwater speed of "Virginia" -type submarines - "over 25 knots", in fact, it should be at least 30 knots (according to JFS - 34), which allows SSN to easily evade pursuit and counterattack the corvette. Secondly, for the same reason, it is difficult to track surface ships (on the BS and near our territorial waters). Thirdly, if 20380 is included in the KUG or KPUG with faster ships (for example, 22350), they will slow down ("slow down") the group.

   Presumably, the decision to install imported MTU diesel engines on 20385 was caused by the desire to eliminate this drawback. At the time when the basic 20380 was being designed, the Kolomensky plant could only offer the fleetengines of the D49 series with a capacity of up to 6000 hp As a result, the ship received two diesel-diesel units 1DDA12000 (total power 24000 hp), each of which consisted of two 10D49 diesel engines with a gearbox . Model 16V1163TB93 from the MTU catalog (now replaced by 16V1163M94) was one third more powerful (8000 hp), and the power of the unit based on it was already 32000 hp, which, according to Almaz, made it possible to reach the cherished 30 knots ( link 3 ).

   After the imposition of sanctions in connection with the events in Ukraine and the refusal of MTU (part of Rolls-Royce) to supply dual-use products to Russia, project 20385 was corrected under 1DDA12000 ( link 4 ), and in May 2016 they were installed on "Thundering" ( ref. 5 ). Despite the statement of the press service of the Ministry of Defense that the power plant was replaced "without violating the design characteristics of the corvette" , the recalculation according to the Admiralty coefficient (the ratio of the product of displacement in the power of 2/3 and cube of speed to power) shows that the ship, having lost 8000 hp ., lost 3 nodes. On the other hand, the same recalculation from 20380, taking into account the increase in displacement (according to various sources - by 150-300 tons), caused by the elongation of the hull by 2 meters, the installation of the UKSK and 4 "extra" Reduta cells, gives minus 0, 4-0.8 knots. Thus, 20385 is at best equal in speed to 20380.

   There is information that the technical design of the new diesel engine of the Kolomna plant, developed specifically for 20385 as an import substitution, was ready by June 2015 ( ref. 6 , 7500 kW are not relevant), but later on, the development of the engine slowed down. Nevertheless, according to available data, at the end of August this year. It was being tested at the bench with a completion date in early 2021 ( link 7 ). Diesel 16SD500 (16ChN26.5 / 31) with a capacity of 8000 hp ( ref. 8 ) refers to the new standard size series D500 ( ref. 9 ). Its dimensions are more than 10D49 and an analogue from MTU (for that there are objective reasons
[*]), but we must assume that they have been agreed with Almaz, and DDA with 16SD500 can be placed on two 20385s, the contract for which was signed in August at Army 2020.

   
[*]Strictly speaking, for an objective comparison of dimensions, drawings are required, which are not freely available. Nevertheless, it can be assumed that in the first case, their increase is associated with an increased power, in the second - with a lower shaft speed (1000 versus 1300 rpm), which is associated with the size of the engine, roughly speaking, inversely proportional . It should be noted that a reduced number of revolutions should have a beneficial effect on the size and resource of the gearbox. Conclusion 2500-ton 30-node corvette of project 20385, equipped with DDA based on 16SD500, armed (among other things) UKSK, MF RLK and 16 cells "Reduta" is an ideal multipurpose ship of the near sea zone, unlike 20380 - not enough

   high-speed and inferior in strike missile armament even to the 870-ton MRK pr. 22800. The need of the Russian Navy for ships of this project (taking into account the cancellation by 2050 of all combatants and 20380 under construction) can be estimated at 30 units - 12 for the Pacific Fleet (6/6 Primorye / Kamchatka), 6 each for Northern Fleet, Black Sea Fleet and Baltic Fleet. The specified seriality and acceptable construction time (3-4 years) can be provided only with minimal changes in the design documentation from order to order. Before the start of truly serial construction ("conveyor assembly") of corvettes, it is desirable to work out the possibility of increasing the ammunition load of the "Packet" (up to 2x6) and UKSK (up to 12 missiles by creating a new 4x3 module specifically for 20385). ■

https://navy-korabel.livejournal.com/254226.html

If they want to commit to 30 ship corvette series this late in the game then 20385 is the wrong horse to bet on, it's way too old this point and is just one big compromise with no room for upgrades

They should have done this over a decade ago

If they want to go for broke then it makes more sense to complete and test 20386 and go for 30 of those especially if they plan to custom design new VLS setup just for that one

To say nothing​ of the fact that despite years of difference engines both ships are practically in same development stage so better to opt for something that won't be obsolete soon



Also when was the last time Russian ships operated as part of a group? They are always deployed solo and on rare occasions when they do operas group it's always miniscule number with no urgency

On the contrary.
20386 is a lot closer to the cost of a 22350, has inferior armament to both & is still at the stage of a partial steel shell after years of 'building'.

If the domestic D500 equivalent of the withheld MTUs is ready then the major problem with 20385 is gone. (aside from the question of if Zaslon actually works)

20385 is handsome, has a well balanced armament of modern, high-power weapons & is small enough to be built in decent numbers needed to replace the ancient stuff that has to be retired.

20385 costs almost as much and has it's upgrade potential is completely exhausted

As for weapons they just said that they need to develop new 4x3 UKSK module specifically for 20385 which makes whole "well balanced armament" argument moot and which would have been better utilized on 20386 since it's more flexible design with much greater potential while 20385 would have to undergo another on-the-fly redesign yet again

They say nothing of insanely long build times for 20385, it makes Gorshkov boutique construction look like mass production​

20385 is a dead end, it's time has passed

20380 makes sense to build because it's dirt cheap in comparison and production line is working so it can be used to quickly replace dilapidated Soviet junk with at least something without wasting too much time and money but 20385 is complete failure

With 20386 they will be getting something useful for their money that they will also be able to use in the future

20385 costs almost as much and has it's upgrade potential is completely exhausted

As for weapons they just said that they need to develop new 4x3 UKSK module specifically for 20385 which makes whole "well balanced armament" argument moot and which would have been better utilized on 20386 since it's more flexible design with much greater potential while 20385 would have to undergo another on-the-fly redesign yet again

20386 costs more because its 1000tons heavier its 11356 size at 3600ton vs 2500ton 20385.
20386 saves a bit by not having a bunch of the built-in armament of 20385 true but the most expensive bits (Zaslon suite) are the same.

20385 upgrade potential is exhausted because what else could you want to add to a 2500ton ship?
It already has:

• 8* UKSK with 2500km cruise missiles, 800km supersonic anti-ship missiles, anti-sub ballistic or 1000km hypersonic missiles.
  
• 16* 120km/60km modern SAM.
  
• 2* gatling CIWS.
  
• A new-gen AESA tech multi-frequency suite with 360deg active/passive radar, optical, integrated firecontrol & integrated ECM/ECW. (if it all works right)
  
• 100mm modern-tech gun.
  
• Active & passive anti-torpedo defense.
  
• Full size ASW chopper.
  
• High power bow & towed sonar.
  

There is nothing to add.
This is already best in class or at least competitive in everything.
I disagree with adding more cells, you'll just end up with an under-engined, considerably more expensive 3000ton ship.

20386 doesn't have the potential to even theoretically simultaneously match that.
It has only 1* 4* container UKSK and loading that excludes embarking the chopper, the bow sonar is weaker and the towed array is an optional extra.
It doesn't even have proper coverage for the AK-630s.

hoom wrote:...0386 doesn't have the potential to even theoretically simultaneously match that.
It has only 1* 4* container UKSK and loading that excludes embarking the chopper, the bow sonar is weaker and the towed array is an optional extra...

Radars and sonars on 20386 are placeholders and can be easily updated, weapons are placeholders

This is a testbed not a final product

hoom wrote:...I disagree with adding more cells, you'll just end up with an under-engined, considerably more expensive 3000ton ship....

It's not my idea, it says in the article that they have to do it to get 20385 up to specs, if they are making new VLS it will be wasted on old design and will make any advantage of using legacy platform non-existent

Navy-Korabel isn't a Russian Navy spokesperson, adding cells is just that guys opinion.
I disagree that its a good idea.

20386 was supposed to be not a test-bed but the first of a cookie-cutter production modification of 20380.

hoom wrote:...20386 was supposed to be not a test-bed but the first of a cookie-cutter production modification of 20380.

It's a 1000ton heavier ship than 20380, they have nothing in common except for part of the serial number

You need to stop looking at the missiles

Clip of the Gremy on trials, shooting down a P-15 Termit AShM with a Redut shot.



Not sure about the composure of the weapons officer... maybe his friendly and helpful "Commissar" was breathing down his neck and describing conditions in the salt mines this time of year and the personal ramifications of failure...

Big_Gazza wrote:...Not sure about the composure of the weapons officer...  maybe his friendly and helpful "Commissar" was breathing down his neck and describing conditions in the salt mines this time of year and the personal ramifications of failure...  

It's not friendly commissar, it’s the fact that there's a bus sized missile coming their way and if he doesn't nail it on the first go it will hit them full bore

And even without warhead it's still a bus loaded with rocket fuel coming their way, USSR lost a ship that way when debris from blank intercepted missile hit it, USA suffered human casualties in same situation

Those 100mm shells were exploding a few metres above the sea with air burst shells... nice...

Clip of the Gremy on trials, shooting down a P-15 Termit AShM with a Redut shot.

Good, we know Zaslon has working basic function at least then

it’s the fact that there's a bus sized missile coming their way and if he doesn't nail it on the first go it will hit them full bore

I'm pretty sure they shoot the missiles past, not at the 'target' ship in these.

Probably more the fact there is a camera in his face & pokey reporter no doubt.

It's a 1000ton heavier ship than 20380, they have nothing in common except for part of the serial number

It was supposed to be the final rework before launching full scale production to fill out the fleets with a much needed replacement for the aging Grishas that have been leaving the fleet at increasing rate.
The 20386 designers got lost along the way & ended up with a frigate with corvette armament.

hoom wrote:

Clip of the Gremy on trials, shooting down a P-15 Termit AShM with a Redut shot.

Good, we know Zaslon has working basic function at least then

it’s the fact that there's a bus sized missile coming their way and if he doesn't nail it on the first go it will hit them full bore

I'm pretty sure they shoot the missiles past, not at the 'target' ship in these.

Probably more the fact there is a camera in his face & pokey reporter no doubt.

It's a 1000ton heavier ship than 20380, they have nothing in common except for part of the serial number

It was supposed to be the final rework before launching full scale production to fill out the fleets with a much needed replacement for the aging Grishas that have been leaving the fleet at increasing rate.
The 20386 designers got lost along the way & ended up with a frigate with corvette armament.

They didn't end up to: the Merkury is a way to make of a corvette (with the armament of a frigate, almost in 223805 case) a light frigate ready to go in blue sea.
So, IMHO leave the single 223800 in Azov sea, the 223801 in Baltic and Black Sea Fleets, keep the 223805 still under construction in the Pacific one, together with an equal number of 223806 and put the rest of future Merkury all in the Northern Fleet.
Each of them would so fit perfectly to the level of menace/ climate conditions/ theatre size in which they will operate.

I'm pretty sure they shoot the missiles past, not at the 'target' ship in these.

Yeah, on a shooting range the shooters are aiming for the targets so it should be perfectly safe to stand between them... not.

I suspect he was concentrating on his job and didn't have the PR skills to smile and juggle a few cats to show how easy his job is...

The 20386 designers got lost along the way & ended up with a frigate with corvette armament.

Was that is mistake, an accident of by request.... honestly I think their corvettes are way over armed anyway... they are supposed to be small coastal patrol boats... they are not supposed to individually take on all of HATO by themselves.

A frigate with a current Russian corvette armament is probably way better armed than most HATO destroyers let alone frigates, but making it bigger (ie frigate sized) gives more room for people and makes endurance and operations more comfortable... which I would think is a good thing.

Ships don't operate on their own... if a sub is detected they don't send one corvette to chase it... they go in groups which also makes them much more powerful and capable...

Each of them would so fit perfectly to the level of menace/ climate conditions/ theatre size in which they will operate.

This is a good point... one corvette design might not do because the fleets are each so different... so for corvettes there might need to be a bit of variation in equipment and systems.

For destroyers they need to be able to operate anywhere but that is OK because they are big enough to carry a full set of capable tools like sonar and radar and air defence missiles.... thanks to modular weapons and modern electronics.

Previously only Soviet Cruiser sized ships could be fully multirole.... with anti ship and anti sub weapons as well as area defence SAMs and shorter ranged systems as well. Their destroyers had primary weapons and backup defence weapons, so for example the Sovremmeny had the radars and could sink ships with its Sunburns, but its defence against subs was RBUs and torpedo tubes. Udaloy has the sonars and could sink subs with Metel which had a back up anti ship capability too. In comparison Kirov had Granits and Metels.

St. Pete, yesterday

https://www.militarynews.ru/story.asp?rid=1&nid=543254&lang=RU

The Ministry of Defense signed a contract for the supply of six corvettes for the Pacific Fleet, capable of carrying "Zircons"

Moscow. December 15th. INTERFAX - The Pacific Fleet will receive six corvettes capable of carrying Zircon hypersonic missiles by 2028, the Russian Defense Ministry's information department said on Tuesday.
      "As part of the implementation of the state defense order GOZ-2021, the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation signed a contract for the supply of a serial batch of corvettes of projects 20380 and 20385 with PJSC Amur Shipyard," the department said.
      According to the contract, the Pacific Fleet from 2024 to 2028 will receive two corvettes of project 20380 and four corvettes of project 20385.

owais.usmani wrote:https://www.militarynews.ru/story.asp?rid=1&nid=543254&lang=RU

The Ministry of Defense signed a contract for the supply of six corvettes for the Pacific Fleet, capable of carrying "Zircons"

Moscow. December 15th. INTERFAX - The Pacific Fleet will receive six corvettes capable of carrying Zircon hypersonic missiles by 2028, the Russian Defense Ministry's information department said on Tuesday.
      "As part of the implementation of the state defense order GOZ-2021, the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation signed a contract for the supply of a serial batch of corvettes of projects 20380 and 20385 with PJSC Amur Shipyard," the department said.
      According to the contract, the Pacific Fleet from 2024 to 2028 will receive two corvettes of project 20380 and four corvettes of project 20385.

So 4 Gremashi and 2 Steregushi?

That's interesting plot twist, so they did sort out engines after all

This should help plug the gaps

Isos wrote:That's 300 million $ for the ship. That's like a Gorshkov. Stop that order and just order Gorshkovs.

Anyway, haven't they ordered 10 20380 ships recently for the pacific fleet ?



Rob Lee
@RALee85
·
2h
The press released didn't specify the costs, but the first Project 20385 corvette, the Gremyashchiy, cost 22.6 billion rubles. The Pacific Fleet has been a relatively low priority over the past few years, particularly as the Black Sea Fleet was reequipped

First order 4 ships, second order 6 ships = 10 ships.

If I understand correctly, that will be a total of 18x 20380s of various configs, plus 6x 20385s.

That's a respectable quantity. Now they need to concentrate on getting the next generation 20386 sorted out.

Big_Gazza wrote:If I understand correctly, that will be a total of 18x 20380s of various configs, plus 6x 20385s.

That's a respectable quantity. Now they need to concentrate on getting the next generation 20386 sorted out.

12 for Pacific, 4 for Baltic (already in service) and 2 for Black Sea

With all 6 20385 going to Pacific Fleet as well they will have 18 brand new corvettes with respectable firepower covering area from Kamchatka to Vladivostok reinforced with 4 Karakurts which will fully free up all larger ships for long range missions

This will be much needed boost for Pacific Fleet

It makes sense since Pacific is much better environment for these ships than Arctic so North Fleet will be getting bulk of all newly ordered frigates which can handle those conditions easily

Edit: so according to George there are additional two 20380 and two 20385 for which I don't​ have location