Military Forum for Russian and Global Defence Issues


    Georgia NATO/US Relations

    Share
    avatar
    Vladimir79

    Posts : 2187
    Points : 3077
    Join date : 2009-07-10

    Georgia NATO/US Relations

    Post  Vladimir79 on Fri Jul 24, 2009 12:45 am

    GEORGIA HOPE ALMOST DEAD


        * Photo - Paul CASSINI

    As the first anniversary of the aggression of Tbilisi against South Ossetia, Georgian President Mikhail Saakashvili gave an interview to the influential American newspaper The Wall Street Journal. «Hope for Georgia joining NATO is almost dead, this is tragic, it appears Russian fought for just cause», - said Saaashvili.

    In an editorial comment The Wall Street Journal in an interview stressed that «before the August war arrogantly Saakashvili spoke about the country's accession to NATO and the EU, as well as the imminent reunification of the two breakaway regions - South Ossetia and Abkhazia. Now, the president said that achieving these three objectives is unlikely in the near future ».

    Note that the aggression of Georgia against South Ossetia is now an established fact and not questioned, even in the West. In this regard, it is legitimate issue to bring Saakashvili prosecuted for the crimes committed. Translate it into action could be through the formation of the International Tribunal for Georgia, which put forward the specific accusations against the Georgian officials, plan and carry out the aggression, as well as those who authorized it. The first meeting of the International Tribunal for Georgia, which could include prominent lawyers and jurists, it is appropriate for Tshinvale 8 Aug., 2009.


    Source: VPK
    avatar
    Vladislav

    Posts : 121
    Points : 142
    Join date : 2009-07-10

    Re: Georgia NATO/US Relations

    Post  Vladislav on Sat Jul 25, 2009 4:46 am

    No NATO for Georgia, then that means no more free Georgia. Laughing
    avatar
    Russian Patriot

    Posts : 1166
    Points : 2054
    Join date : 2009-07-21
    Age : 26
    Location : USA- although I am Russian

    U.S. rules out creating military bases in Georgia!

    Post  Russian Patriot on Wed Oct 21, 2009 12:54 am

    U.S. rules out creating military bases in Georgia

    RIA Novosti

    18:30 20/10/2009 TBILISI, October 20 (RIA Novosti) - The United States will not establish military bases in Georgia but will help the country to modernize its defense system and integrate into NATO, a senior U.S. defense official said on Tuesday.

    "We are working together with our Georgian friends on a long-term program of assistance to Georgia's efforts to carry out defense reforms and defense modernization, and to improve its candidacy as a prospective member of NATO," U.S. Assistant Secretary of Defense Alexander Vershbow told a news conference in Tbilisi.

    He also said the United States has no plans to deploy missile defense elements in non-NATO countries.

    "We are not consulting with any non-NATO countries and we do not envisage the placement of elements of our new architecture on the territory of non-NATO member states," he said.

    Russia has expressed concern over U.S. missile defense plans involving countries outside NATO.

    Vershbow previously said the United States was considering Ukraine as a possible site for a radar station as part of its new missile defense configuration in Europe, and Ukraine's ambassador to the United States, Oleh Shamshur, said on Thursday that the issue "is being discussed on the working level, at a preliminary stage."

    President Viktor Yushchenko clarified the following day that no request has been received to host U.S. missile defense facilities, but that existing radar facilities could be "integrated into a European or global security system."

    U.S. President Barack Obama in September scrapped plans to deploy a radar in the Czech Republic and interceptor missiles in Poland, due to a re-assessment of the threat from Iran. Moscow fiercely opposed the plans as a national security threat.

    According to the Obama administration's new plan, land-based missile defense shields will not be implemented before 2015. Sea-based defenses will be operating in the Mediterranean up to 2015.

    http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/news/2009/10/mil-091020-rianovosti04.htm

    lulldapull

    Posts : 199
    Points : 240
    Join date : 2010-03-29
    Location : Nagoya

    United States - Georgia Military ties

    Post  lulldapull on Sun Jan 16, 2011 1:15 pm

    From the sound of this Georgia is on its way to becoming a full member of Nato soon. It will make Putin think twice this time to deal with Sakashvilli. A new conflict over Abkhazia & Ossetia is almost inevitable if more weaponry is transferred by Israel and the U.S. to Georgia. Makes us all wonder where Russian priorities lie?


    Washington To Rearm Georgia For New Conflicts


    By Rick Rozoff - Stop NATO

    Recent reports in the Russian news media have detailed plans by the U.S. to provide the Mikheil Saakashvili government in Georgia with tens of millions of dollars worth of anti-aircraft and anti-tank weapons.

    The Russian government's Itar-Tass news agency and Voice of Russia have confirmed the arms package with officials from the Russian special services and the Joint Staff of the armed forces.

    An official from the second source responded to the proposed arms sale by stating: "We deeply regret that the reset of US-Russian relations declared by the administration of Barack Obama does not change anything in Washington's military support for the Georgian leadership, which began the war in the Caucasus in August 2008 and which is continuing to mastermind aggressive plans against the independent states of Abkhazia and South Ossetia." [1]

    The Georgian-South Ossetian-Russian war of 2008 was preceded by Georgian artillery barrages against the South Ossetian capital of Tskhinvali on August 1 which killed six people including a Russian peacekeeper stationed there.

    That attack occurred within hours of 1,000 U.S. Marines, airborne forces and other troops completing the two-week Immediate Response 2008 North Atlantic Treaty Organization Partnership for Peace exercise in Georgia.

    Six days afterward the Saakashvili regime launched an all-out assault against South Ossetia, timed to coincide with the opening ceremony of the Olympic Games in Beijing.

    American troops and military equipment remained in the war zone throughout the five days of fighting between Georgia and Russia which began after the latter nation reacted to the deaths of Russian peacekeepers and South Ossetian civilians (who overwhelmingly hold Russian passports) caused by the Georgian onslaught.

    U.S. military transport aircraft ferried home 2,000 Georgian troops deployed to Iraq - the third largest national contingent after those of the U.S. and Britain at the time - as the fighting was still raging.

    Five days after the war ended, Joseph Biden - then senator and chairman of the Senate Committee on Foreign Relations, now vice president - rushed to the Georgian capital to support Saakashvili and offer $1 billion in "emergency aid" to the U.S. client.

    After returning stateside, Biden, never reticent in respect to high-blown rhetorical excesses, stated:

    "I left the country convinced that Russia's invasion of Georgia may be...one of the most significant event[s] to occur in Europe since the end of communism... .[T]he continuing presence of Russian forces in the country has severe implications for the broader region....Russia’s actions in Georgia will have consequences.”

    Later in the month the U.S. dispatched the USS McFaul guided missile destroyer (part of the Aegis combat system designed to fire interceptor missiles), USS Mount Whitney (the flagship of the U.S. Sixth Fleet) and a Coast Guard cutter to the Georgian Black Sea coast, immediately south of Abkhazia and not much farther from the Russian shoreline. The heavily armed warships were, if one trusts Washington's account of their mission, engaged in a humanitarian operation. Russian President Dmitry Medvedev accused the U.S. of bringing weapons into Georgia.

    The American ships, joined by as many as fifteen other NATO vessels, and Russian opposite numbers deployed to the region were only some ninety miles apart.

    Georgia's head of state Mikheil Saakashvili, a graduate of Columbia Law School in New York City, was brought to power seven years ago on the back of an extra-constitutiona l putsch in 2003-2004 that he and his supporters and admirers in the West refer to as the Rose Revolution.

    He remains the preeminent American political client in the world along with Kosovo's prime minister and president presumptive Hashim Thaci, recently accused in a report to the Council of Europe of being the ringleader of a grisly crime syndicate that trafficked in narcotics, weapons and human organs extracted from at least 500 ethnic Serbian and other civilians murdered for that purpose. An empire can be judged by the satraps it arms and in other manners indulges.

    After Saakashvili' s Pyrrhic attempt to eliminate the two barriers remaining to dragging his country into NATO - unresolved territorial disputes and the presence of foreign troops on its soil (at the time a small number of Russian peacekeepers in South Ossetia and Abkhazia) - with the invasion of South Ossetia and following that an offensive against Abkhazia, the U.S. and NATO hastened to shore up their outpost in the South Caucasus.

    In mid-September NATO's Secretary General Jaap de Hoop Scheffer and its North Atlantic Council (the permanent representatives - ambassadors - of all its 26 member states at the time) visited Georgia and, guided by the host country's defense minister, inspected air force and infantry bases.

    During the trip, the U.S.-controlled military bloc signed a framework agreement on creating the NATO-Georgia Commission, out of which developed an Annual National Program to further Georgia's integration into the Alliance, an exceptional measure to circumvent the standard stages through which a candidate nation passes to achieve full NATO accession.

    The Russian Foreign Ministry responded by issuing a statement that said in part:

    "Instead of drawing serious conclusions about the failed attempt by Saakashvili to forcefully resolve the many-year-old conflict [with South Ossetia], NATO has again demonstrated its support towards his [Saakashvili’s] campaign of disinformation, and has promised to rebuild the military infrastructure of this country.” [2]

    Washington followed suit in December when then-Deputy Assistant Secretary of State for European and Eurasian Affairs Matthew Bryza announced a framework agreement on a U.S.-Georgia Charter on Strategic Partnership, which was formalized by Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice and Georgian Foreign Minister Grigol Vashadze in Washington on January 9, 2009.

    In October of 2008 Washington deployed the destroyer USS Mason to Georgia for training exercises and in the same month the Georgian defense minister met with U.S. Defense Secretary Robert Gates on the sidelines of a NATO defense chiefs meeting in Hungary, after which it was announced that "U.S. military assistance will be aimed at strengthening Georgian air defenses." [3]

    At the same time the Pentagon sent "an assessment team to Georgia to determine what role the US should play in rebuilding that country’s military after its military conflict with Russia last August.

    "After the assessment, Pentagon officials will review how the United States will be able to support the reconstruction of Georgia, including armed forces aid." [4]

    Toward the end of the month a delegation headed by Frank Boland, head of Force Planning for the NATO Defense Policy and Planning Directorate, visited Georgia to meet with the country's top defense and military officials and prepare the nation for the next stage of NATO integration.

    The month before, only weeks after the war had ended, Under Secretary of Defense for Policy Eric Edelman told the Senate Armed Services Committee that "Georgia, like any sovereign country, should have the ability to defend itself and deter renewed aggression, and there should be not be any question about whether Georgia is entitled to military assistance from the United States or, indeed, from NATO or any of the NATO allies.”

    President George Bush supported Biden's call for $1 billion worth of non-military aid to Georgia, which at the time was remarked would "dwarf the 63 million dollars that Washington provided to Georgia last year. Excluding Iraq, the infusion would make Georgia one of the largest recipients of American foreign aid after Israel and Egypt." [5] Georgia has a population of 4.6 million, Egypt of 80 million.

    Until now, however, the U.S. has been cautious about rebuilding and upgrading Georgia's military arsenal or at least acknowledging that it is doing so. If recent reports prove true, Georgia is to receive a large quantity of high-tech weapons from the U.S., including surface-to-air missile complexes, Stinger and other portable surface-to-air missiles, Javelin third generation guided missiles and Hellfire air-to-surface missiles, the latter two designed for penetrating armor.

    Three weeks ago South Ossetian President Eduard Kokoity warned that "Georgia only pays lip service to peace, continues to rearm and refuses to sign non-aggression pacts that can avert another South Caucasus war." [6]

    According to Russian military expert Victor Baranets, "Georgia is buying anti-missile and anti-tank weapons because the 2008 war showed that these are weak points of the Georgian army." [7]

    In short, the U.S. will provide precisely the weapons Tbilisi needs for a new assault against South Ossetia and a new war with Russia.

    Saakashvili is now in Washington, where "the purchase of weapons will be the main topic of his talks with American leaders." His trip is centered on attending a memorial to the late White House Afghanistan- Pakistan special representative Richard Holbrooke in Washington, D.C. on December 14 at which President Barack Obama and Secretary of State Hillary Clinton will pay tribute to the deceased.

    On January 12 Saakashvili became the first foreign leader to meet with the new speaker of the House of Representatives, John Boehner. The latter released a statement after the meeting which said:

    "The American people will continue to stand with others struggling for democracy over the forces of despotism, dignity over degradation, and freedom over subjugation. " [8] His statement also expressed appreciation to Georgia for supplying the Pentagon with 2,000 troops for the war in Iraq and 1,000 so far for that in Afghanistan.

    The Georgian leader met with other lawmakers, including Senator Joseph Lieberman, upon whom he bestowed the St. George's Victory Order. Saakashvili announced last month that he - not the mayor of Tbilisi - would named a street in his nation's capital after Holbrooke, a "trusted friend and confidant" who co-authored a piece in the Washington Post during the 2008 war denouncing what he termed the "full-scale Russian invasion of Georgia."

    While Washington's favorite foreign head of state is being hailed and regaled with attention and praise in the capital, his foreign minister referred to a recent agreement between Abkhazia and Russia as "fascism." [9]

    The day before he arrived in the U.S., Saakashvili said in an interview to a Ukrainian television station:

    "As for NATO, I am absolutely convinced that this is just a matter of time."

    "Nobody can ensure their security on their own, especially small countries, but I think this concerns Ukraine as well," he added.

    After seven years of mercurial, megalomaniacal, adventurist, dictatorial and murderous rule [10], Saakashvili remains the Washington political establishment' s pampered darling ne plus ultra.

    At the NATO summit in November of last year, President Obama met privately with him the day before the NATO-Russia Council meeting with President Medvedev occurred.

    Last July Secretary of State Hillary Clinton visited Georgia as Saakashvili' s guest and lambasted Russia for "occupying" Abkhazia and South Ossetia, described as Georgian territories although neither has ever been part of an independent Georgia. In her own words: "We, the United States, was appalled, and totally rejected the invasion and occupation of Georgian territory. I was in the Senate at the time, and, along with my colleagues and the prior Administration, made that view very clear. We continue to speak out, as I have on this trip, against the continuing occupation." [11]

    At a joint press conference with Georgian Prime Minister Nikoloz Gilauri ahead of the second omnibus meeting of the U.S.-Georgia Charter on Strategic Partnership in October, she stated:

    "The relationship between Georgia and the United States stands on a foundation of shared values and common interests... .The United States will not waver in its support for Georgia’s sovereignty and territorial integrity. That support is a core principle of our Charter on Strategic Partnership, and it is fundamental to our bilateral relationship. "

    "The United States remains committed to Georgia’s aspirations for membership in NATO, as reflected in the Alliance’s decisions in Bucharest and Strasbourg-Kehl. We strongly support Georgia’s efforts related to its Annual National Program, which promotes defense reform and guides cooperation with NATO. And we continue to support Georgia’s efforts on defense reform and improving defense capabilities, including NATO interoperability and Georgia’s contributions to ISAF operations in Afghanistan. "

    "We continue to call on Russia to end its occupation of Georgian territory, withdraw its forces, and abide by its other commitments under the 2008 ceasefire agreements." [12]

    Her comments led the government of Abkhazia to challenge her to acknowledge countries like Afghanistan and Iraq as American-occupied territories.

    Later in the month a NATO delegation inspected the Krtsanisi National Training Center and its Simulation Training Center - built by the U.S. - in Georgia (where U.S. Marines have trained Georgian soldiers and where three Georgian soldiers were killed and thirteen wounded in an explosion this month) as part of NATO Days events in the nation.

    Also in October, Italian Admiral Giampaolo Di Paola, chairman of the NATO Military Committee, visited the Krtsanisi National Training Center and the simulation facility to view training exercises of the Georgian battalion that would replace one serving under NATO command in Afghanistan. He also toured the newly established NATO Liaison Office in the Georgian capital.

    In November Assistant Secretary of State for European Affairs Phillip Gordon told BBC: "We...recognize Georgia's sovereignty and integrity. We are absolutely clear with Russia, we disagree on Georgia. [W]e want to see an end to Russian occupation and...we stand by Georgia`s sovereignty and
    territorial integrity." [13]

    At the same time Georgian Deputy Minister of Defense Nikoloz Vashakidze was sequestered with top U.S. officials in closed-door meetings at the Pentagon. The "negotiations were held within the framework agreement on cooperation in the defence sector between the US and Georgia." [14]

    As the Georgian deputy defense chief was in Washington, South Ossetian First Deputy Foreign Minister Alan Pliev warned:

    "We are concerned about Georgia's intention to increase its military capacities. Now Georgia is planning to buy a number of Merkava 4 Israeli tanks, which are clearly not meant for defensive action.

    "The activation of the Georgian Defense Ministry, increased flights of Georgian drones near the borders of South Ossetia, as well as the
    maniacal opposition to signing a non-aggression agreement give rise to the reasonable assumption of a newly designed bloody venture by Georgian authorities. " [15]

    The official also stated that due to assistance from the U.S. and other NATO states the military-technical capacity of the Georgian armed forces currently exceeds that at the start of the war in 2008.

    On November 16 the NATO Parliamentary Assembly met in Poland and passed a resolution referring to Abkhazia and South Ossetia as "occupied territories. "

    The Abkhazian Foreign Ministry issued a statement in response which included the following:

    "The Abkhazian party considers this biased interpretation of the events yet another manifestation of NATO's pro-Georgian position.

    "NATO is an organization that has been contributing to the intensive militarization of Georgia for many years, stirring up the revanchist mindset of the Georgian leadership, which led to the August 2008 bloodshed in South Ossetia." [16]

    At their meeting during the Lisbon NATO summit, Obama "thanked his Georgian counterpart Mikheil Saakashvili for his country's participation in NATO-led international peace efforts in Afghanistan and reaffirmed the United States' support of Georgia's territorial integrity." [17]

    Saakashvili offered more troops for the war in Afghanistan, pledged that his nation's contingent would remain there as long as NATO does, confirmed that Obama backed his country becoming a full NATO member ("President Obama has supported Georgia's course that will lead it to joining NATO") and said that the NATO summit declaration cleared the way for Georgia to join the military bloc without the customary Membership Action Plan requirement.

    The Lisbon summit declaration affirms that NATO will "continue and develop the partnerships with Ukraine and Georgia within the NATO-Ukraine and NATO-Georgia Commissions, based on the NATO decision at the Bucharest summit 2008, and taking into account the Euro-Atlantic orientation or aspiration of each of the countries."

    On December 1, at the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe (OSCE) summit in Kazakhstan, during which she met privately with Saakashvili, Hillary Clinton advocated "a meaningful OSCE presence in Georgia." In 1998 and until NATO's war against Yugoslavia commenced in March of the following year her husband's administration employed the OSCE's Kosovo Verification Mission, under the control of the notorious William Walker, to set the stage for the 78-day bombing of Yugoslavia and the wresting of Kosovo from Serbia. [18]

    Also early last month, the NATO-Georgia Commission met in Brussels and Georgian Deputy Foreign Minister and Secretary of the National Security Council Giga Bokeria, representing his country at the meeting, stated:

    "The resolution of the summit says that NATO continues to assist Georgia in carrying out reforms, recognizes its territorial integrity and sovereignty, and calls on Russia to abolish the decision in connection with recognition of the independence of Abkhazia and South Ossetia."

    Afterwards, "issues of cooperation between Georgia and NATO were discussed at the headquarters of the Alliance, at a meeting of the Georgian National Security Council's Secretary Gigi Bokeria and the NATO Deputy Secretary General.

    "The NATO Secretary General's Special Representative for the South Caucasus James Appathurai attended the meeting in his new status." [19]

    As a footnote, "In 2003, after a visit to Serbia to study peaceful revolution techniques, Bokeria helped bring Serb activists from the youth movement Otpor to Georgia to train students in the same techniques. As a result, the youth movement 'Kmara' was established, which played a leading role in the November 2003 Rose Revolution." [20]

    On December 3 the U.S. ambassador to Georgia, John Bass, was quoted as affirming: "The United States remains firmly committed to Georgia's sovereignty and territorial integrity. We enjoy a strong defense relationship, defense cooperation, and we're currently working closely with the Ministry of Defense and other Ministries in Georgia to improve Georgia's ability to defend itself." [21]

    Three days later Bass visited the Krtsanisi National Training Center and "also took a tour of the Simulation Center and attended model exercises on the ground." [22]

    The American envoy is routinely present at send-off and welcoming ceremonies for U.S. Marine Corps-trained Georgian troops deployed to Afghanistan.

    In fact the Pentagon instituted the Georgia Train and Equip Program in 2002, first under Green Beret, then Marine, control in 2002 and later the Georgian Sustainment and Stability Operations Program three years later.

    While still commandant of the U.S. Marine Corps, General James Conway visited Georgia in August of 2009 to inaugurate the latest Marine training of the host country's armed forces. At the time Associated Press reported that when asked if the preparation could be applied "to the possibility of another war with Russia," he answered, "In general, yes."

    Last September Saakashvili addressed cadets graduating from a new training center at the Kutaisi Military Base and stated:

    "[S]omeone may say: 'we have so many problems, our territories are occupied and there is no time now for going somewhere else to fight.' But because of these very same problems that we have, we need huge combat experience.. .and that [Afghan mission] is a unique combat and war school." [23]

    On December 9 Associated Press, reporting on an interview with Georgian Vice Prime Minister Giorgi Baramidze, stated he was "raising the issue [of a "road map" to full NATO membership] in Washington this week with the Obama administration. " He further "said Georgia already behaves as if it were a member of NATO."

    On the same day a bill crafted and introduced by Senators Jeanne Shaheen and Lindsey Graham, co-chairs of the Atlantic Council Task Force on Georgia, called "A resolution expressing the sense of the Senate with respect to the territorial integrity of Georgia and the situation within Georgia's internationally recognized borders," was presented to the Senate Committee on Foreign Relations. It refers to Abkhazia and South Ossetia as Georgian territories "occupied by the Russian Federation."

    The next day Shaheen's and Graham's colleague Senator John McCain spoke at a conference titled "Forging a Transatlantic Consensus on Russia" at the Johns Hopkins Paul H. Nitze School of Advanced International Studies at which he demanded the resumption and increase of arms sales to Georgia, stating:

    "For two years, mostly out of deference to Russia, defensive arms sales have not been authorized for Georgia. This has to change. At a minimum we should provide Georgia with early warning radars and other basic capabilities to strengthen its defenses.

    "Our allies in central and eastern Europe view Georgia as a test case of whether the United States will stand by them or not. Russia views Georgia as a test case, too - of how much it can get away with in Georgia, and if there then elsewhere. It is the policy of our government to support Georgia's aspiration to join NATO." [24]

    Afterward, Robert Pszczel, the new director of the NATO Information Office in Moscow and formerly acting NATO Deputy Spokesman, confirmed that "NATO will continue its Eastward enlargement policy" and that "The NATO-Georgia Commission continues its work." [25]

    In mid-December U.S. Deputy Defense Secretary Alexander Vershbow and Georgia's Vice Prime Minister and State Minister for Euro-Atlantic Integration Giorgi Baramidze met in Washington to plan Georgia's NATO accession. The Georgian official stated afterward that "Meeting with Vershbow is very important, as he is actively engaged in the issues of NATO enlargement, as well as personally ensuring Georgia's accession into the alliance." [26]

    Baramidze, who studied at Georgetown University and was the country's defense minister in 2004, also met with members of the U.S. Senate on the bill discussed above.
    ....
    U.S. troops were in Georgia during the five-day war with Russia in 2008 and later in the same month American warships were docked in the country's ports as ships from the Russian Black Sea Fleet were deployed within firing range.

    Never before have military forces from the world's two major nuclear powers been on opposing sides of a battle line during wartime.

    By increasing the provision of sophisticated weaponry to Georgia, Washington is taunting Russia on its southern border and running the risk of a military conflict that may draw it into a direct confrontation with its main nuclear rival.
    avatar
    Hoof

    Posts : 77
    Points : 79
    Join date : 2011-01-06
    Age : 27
    Location : HAFB, UT

    Re: Georgia NATO/US Relations

    Post  Hoof on Sun Jan 16, 2011 7:16 pm

    I think if Georgia will try to do anything funny, like in 2008, results will be the same... Doesn't matter how well soldier equipped, how great his rifle is, or how great their tanks are...if you dont have any experience in fighting, and they just gonna turn and run, leaving their equipment, guns and tanks behind...

    I think it would make more sense for Russia to go all the way to Tbilisi, next time, and remove Sakashvili from power...

    lulldapull

    Posts : 199
    Points : 240
    Join date : 2010-03-29
    Location : Nagoya

    Re: Georgia NATO/US Relations

    Post  lulldapull on Sun Jan 16, 2011 9:23 pm

    Yeah......you are not kidding Hoof!

    forcibly removing Sakashvilli from power is not bad idea. The problem is that in a tit for tat third world foreign policy that the ruthless CIA or its lackey Israel follow will probably dictate that the CIA open a new front with Russia, somewhere else in Europe.

    The U.S. might goad NATO into doing something stupid.

    I believe that this time around Russia will have to fight NATO units in Georgia, Abkhazia or Ossetia. Israel will test its technology directly against front line Russian equipment too!

    The usual massive terror attack on Russia or its interests also cannot be ruled out, and since Russia hates muslims, then its probably a good idea for the West to do it via its sold out Chechen Wahabbi dissident or their like.

    What better way to divert attention, and bloody Russia this time around?

    I bet you a million bucks that they are plotting right now, playing out all the possible scenario's. Sakashvilli is being fattened up too.
    avatar
    Hoof

    Posts : 77
    Points : 79
    Join date : 2011-01-06
    Age : 27
    Location : HAFB, UT

    Re: Georgia NATO/US Relations

    Post  Hoof on Sun Jan 16, 2011 11:26 pm

    lulldapull wrote:Yeah......you are not kidding Hoof!

    forcibly removing Sakashvilli from power is not bad idea. The problem is that in a tit for tat third world foreign policy that the ruthless CIA or its lackey Israel follow will probably dictate that the CIA open a new front with Russia, somewhere else in Europe.

    The U.S. might goad NATO into doing something stupid.

    I believe that this time around Russia will have to fight NATO units in Georgia, Abkhazia or Ossetia. Israel will test its technology directly against front line Russian equipment too!

    The usual massive terror attack on Russia or its interests also cannot be ruled out, and since Russia hates muslims, then its probably a good idea for the West to do it via its sold out Chechen Wahabbi dissident or their like.

    What better way to divert attention, and bloody Russia this time around?

    I bet you a million bucks that they are plotting right now, playing out all the possible scenario's. Sakashvilli is being fattened up too.

    I don't think NATO will get involved in a war with a nuclear power because of non-member country. Russia will need to make it clear to the west, that any agression toward South Osetia and Abhazia will result a conflict. Russia doesn't hate muslims... Its other way around, Russia keeps good relations with Azerbaijan and Kazakhstan as well as Tajikistan... As For Chechen people, I think Russia gained enough trust from local people there, things will not be the same as they were in 90s anymore. As for terrorism, i dont think it will ever stop, it's been around for thousands of years.
    avatar
    GarryB

    Posts : 16515
    Points : 17123
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Re: Georgia NATO/US Relations

    Post  GarryB on Mon Jan 17, 2011 12:13 am

    NATO membership guarantees support from other NATO countries when one is attacked by an outside force.
    Georgia attacking South Ossetia would not qualify, so NATO countries would be not more required to help Georgia in a war against Russia than Turkey was required to help the US led invasion of Iraq.

    The last conflict was very one sided and was over relatively quickly.

    The situation has changed an enormous amount on the ground now with large numbers of fully equipped Russian forces in SO and Abkhazia.

    The Georgian forces that would have failed to invade Abkhazia would get their a$$e$ handed to them if they try anything now... even if they had F-22s to be perfectly honest.

    Georgian airfields are well within Tochka and Iskander range and you can bet that Russian recon has been paying much more attention to Georgian military activity.

    Just consider the difference a two year warning would have made to the attack on Pearl Harbour...

    BTW if the US and Israel want to test their new kit and if Saakashvili wants to try it again I just hope the Russian forces take a few extra trucks to carry back all the booty from the next conflict... I am sure the Russians would like a first hand look at Javelin and the current model Stingers.
    avatar
    Hoof

    Posts : 77
    Points : 79
    Join date : 2011-01-06
    Age : 27
    Location : HAFB, UT

    Re: Georgia NATO/US Relations

    Post  Hoof on Mon Jan 17, 2011 12:25 am

    GarryB wrote:

    BTW if the US and Israel want to test their new kit and if Saakashvili wants to try it again I just hope the Russian forces take a few extra trucks to carry back all the booty from the next conflict... I am sure the Russians would like a first hand look at Javelin and the current model Stingers.

    Haha.. And just like during last war, US will try to make Russia return all the weapons they captured... Not happening lol

    If someone uses a weapon against me at war, and I kill them, take their weapon. It wouldn't make much sense to return it to my enemy... would it ? lol


    So Georgia can't join NATO until territorial problems have been solved ? If Georgia got in NATO and attacked SO... and Russia retaliated, would it count as aggression towards NATO ?
    avatar
    GarryB

    Posts : 16515
    Points : 17123
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Re: Georgia NATO/US Relations

    Post  GarryB on Mon Jan 17, 2011 1:33 am

    Any NATO member can object to Georgia joining and I would expect much of old Europe would be wondering why NATO needs another weak poor country to bludge off the NATO teet.

    Georgia would add nothing to benefit NATO and lots to make things much less stable.

    Georgia joining NATO might turn into quite a problem because it is really only the current dictatorship that supports joining... when the solutions don't come and reintegration doesn't happen the people of Georgia might wonder why they never see the opposition on TV or radio any more and that perhaps learning to get along with the big neighbour might lead to better relations and perhaps even eventually the South Ossetians and Abkhazians not hating Georgians.

    I very much doubt NATO would officially touch any conflict between Russia and Georgia, but there will be lots of lunatics especially in the Baltic republics and eastern European countries that will volunteer.

    Thing is that there is a lot of blood hatred in the Caucusus toward the Georgians who are considered the Backstreet boys of fighting.
    In addition to the North Ossetians volunteering to form the 58th Army to respond to the Georgian invasion there were also reportedly quite a few Chechen volunteers as well... which probably was what those fleeing the battlefield had in mind along with Su-25s of course.

    I doubt the Russians will get everything right if this happens again... there will be mistakes... but the result is fairly predictable... and I am pretty sure if it happens one more time the attitude will be if we don't get it right this time it will just keep happening so they will likely get the Georgian opposition and arm them and basically let it be know that Saakashvilis head is wanted on a stick... which will cause that coward to leave the country immediately and the Russian forces can lead the Georgian opposition to overthrow what is left and then the Georgians can sort their own Sht out themselves without MS getting in the way.

    The new government can be anti Russian if it wants to be but it must realise that attacking South Ossetia or Abkhazia is not an option anymore or Russia will do to them what the US did to Kosovo.

    Corrosion

    Posts : 190
    Points : 205
    Join date : 2010-10-19

    Re: Georgia NATO/US Relations

    Post  Corrosion on Mon Jan 17, 2011 5:21 am

    As far as NATO is concerned, there is a difference between invading a country when you know it cant retaliate back and take the fight to your own land and fighting a war with a country with thousands of nukes, which can remove your existence. France, Germany etc. are not in a state of cold war with Russia any more. If Georgia enters NATO and attacks and Russia retaliates with a big punch against Georgia. I dont think NATO will take on Russia openly. People of Europe do understand difference between Serbia and Afghanistan and Russia. Although I wont underestimate US as far as their ability of starting a war is concerned. The thing is Russia has to maintain its military might.

    lulldapull

    Posts : 199
    Points : 240
    Join date : 2010-03-29
    Location : Nagoya

    Re: Georgia NATO/US Relations

    Post  lulldapull on Mon Jan 17, 2011 7:42 am

    Well.....in all honesty its not even a question of if, but when Georgia gets inducted fully into NATO. The way Sakashvilli is on his knees giving the Americans blowjobs on demand, fukkin hell he's on his way to the top in NATO! they love Sakashvilli in Brussels as he's apparently got the balls to thumb his nose at Putin.

    I wont be surprised a bit if Georgia gets into NATO on a fast track basis, and while the hillbilly in Washington are at it, they will take on all the disparate elements who have a beef with Russia, and put them on the front line and goad them into battle......just like last time...only this time around there will be far better preparation and sophisticated air defenses to keep the Su-25's and others out and bomb from high level at their own peril. attack

    The U.S., Saudi's and Israel who were the principal architects of the Rambo-3 type Moslem guerrilla war in the 80's in Afghanistan are probably itching to get that 'beating the Russians' concept into another project, and bleed Russia in Georgia. Russia wont use nukes as nukes are obsolete now, and cannot be used. Only conventional warfare to be allowed with sophisticated rehearsed tactics. It will be a great exercise in taking on the last stumbling block toward total domination of Russia, and surrounding it from all sides. Ukraine is also being cultivated to partake in this plan, as are all the other lackeys like Romania, Bulgaria and Hungary.

    Mercenaries of the world.....pucker up, cuz the time for action is near....... sniper
    avatar
    Hoof

    Posts : 77
    Points : 79
    Join date : 2011-01-06
    Age : 27
    Location : HAFB, UT

    Re: Georgia NATO/US Relations

    Post  Hoof on Mon Jan 17, 2011 8:22 am

    lulldapull wrote:Well.....in all honesty its not even a question of if, but when Georgia gets inducted fully into NATO. The way Sakashvilli is on his knees giving the Americans blowjobs on demand, fukkin hell he's on his way to the top in NATO! they love Sakashvilli in Brussels as he's apparently got the balls to thumb his nose at Putin.

    I wont be surprised a bit if Georgia gets into NATO on a fast track basis, and while the hillbilly in Washington are at it, they will take on all the disparate elements who have a beef with Russia, and put them on the front line and goad them into battle......just like last time...only this time around there will be far better preparation and sophisticated air defenses to keep the Su-25's and others out and bomb from high level at their own peril. attack

    The U.S., Saudi's and Israel who were the principal architects of the Rambo-3 type Moslem guerrilla war in the 80's in Afghanistan are probably itching to get that 'beating the Russians' concept into another project, and bleed Russia in Georgia. Russia wont use nukes as nukes are obsolete now, and cannot be used. Only conventional warfare to be allowed with sophisticated rehearsed tactics. It will be a great exercise in taking on the last stumbling block toward total domination of Russia, and surrounding it from all sides. Ukraine is also being cultivated to partake in this plan, as are all the other lackeys like Romania, Bulgaria and Hungary.

    Mercenaries of the world.....pucker up, cuz the time for action is near....... sniper

    I'm sorry man, but I don't think that many countries like to go to war, and nuclear weapons are far from obsolete. Plus there is nothing you can do about troops with low morale, you know, georgian troops been trained by US and Israeli Special forces, even in the art of resistance (blowing up bridges, power plants and such) but what happened ? what happened with all the new equipment NATO gave Georgia ??? Georgian troops ran and left everything behind... few terrorist acts been caught (like when georgian commandos tried to blow up a tunnel) and nothing major happened. As for Romania, Bulgaria and Hungary... War is the last thing on their mind, with all the things happening in the world economy... War is very expensive. If Ukraine plans to go to war, don't forget about Eastern Ukraine is pretty much Russian people, Don't think this will go too well...

    P.S. Rambo is not real, and spetsnaz are as good as they get. watching too many movies can create illusions about whats real and what is not.

    lulldapull

    Posts : 199
    Points : 240
    Join date : 2010-03-29
    Location : Nagoya

    Re: Georgia NATO/US Relations

    Post  lulldapull on Mon Jan 17, 2011 9:05 am

    Hoof, dude let me cut the cheese for you around here...............

    Rambo is very real and the right wing evangelist/ terrorist/ armageddonist hillbilly are alive and well. And above all they want to pump more cheese before they meet with their maker in defending Israel. russia

    What bad could be on the horizon when you doing God's work in Russia, ofcourse after defeating the mighty Eastern horde's and killing them off in God's name and advancing the Hebrew God in the unknown Eastern lands? welcome

    The truth is out ain't it?

    The point being that the U.S. makes these eastern slavs into real fukkin slaves.....suck dick on demand?.... lol!

    I mean whats the god-damn inhibition here? tell the truth as it is.........yeah? or no?

    Russia lost its fukkin shirt a long time ago when the USSR dissolved!

    Now Russia wont call an apple an apple unless the hillbilly/ Zionists pump it in the ass to say so! russia
    avatar
    Hoof

    Posts : 77
    Points : 79
    Join date : 2011-01-06
    Age : 27
    Location : HAFB, UT

    Re: Georgia NATO/US Relations

    Post  Hoof on Mon Jan 17, 2011 9:16 am

    lulldapull wrote:Hoof, dude let me cut the cheese for you around here...............

    Rambo is very real and the right wing evangelist/ terrorist/ armageddonist hillbilly are alive and well. And above all they want to pump more cheese before they meet with their maker in defending Israel. russia

    What bad could be on the horizon when you doing God's work in Russia, ofcourse after defeating the mighty Eastern horde's and killing them off in God's name and advancing the Hebrew God in the unknown Eastern lands? welcome

    The truth is out ain't it?

    The point being that the U.S. makes these eastern slavs into real fukkin slaves.....suck dick on demand?.... lol!

    I mean whats the god-damn inhibition here? tell the truth as it is.........yeah? or no?

    Russia lost its fukkin shirt a long time ago when the USSR dissolved!

    Now Russia wont call an apple an apple unless the hillbilly/ Zionists pump it in the ass to say so! russia


    What the heck are you talking about ? you don't make much sense = /
    avatar
    GarryB

    Posts : 16515
    Points : 17123
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Re: Georgia NATO/US Relations

    Post  GarryB on Mon Jan 17, 2011 9:24 am

    Sad thing is that while war might seem unlikely to us now it probably also seemed silly in 1914.

    Who could have predicted that the assassination of someone in Europe could bring about a European wide war that killed tens of millions of people.

    Thing is they had military blocks so big and powerful it was supposed to mean war was impossible on the continent of Europe... problem was it was those military blocks and military agreements to go to war to help others that dragged all of Europe into that war.

    The western side blaming Germany for that conflict even though Germany was not more at fault that any other country involved like Britain or France led to the creation of the right environment for Hitler and Lenin to take power respectively and to lead inevitably to WWII.
    avatar
    GarryB

    Posts : 16515
    Points : 17123
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Re: Georgia NATO/US Relations

    Post  GarryB on Mon Jan 17, 2011 9:34 am

    I am worried about what you might be smoking lulldapull.

    Georgia can't enter NATO while there is a dispute over its national boundaries... NATO rules. It can have a special relationship with NATO but that wont get direct NATO support.

    And anything the US suddenly decides to provide to Georgia might lead to the Taleban finding modern RPGs with decent armour penetration figures falling off trucks near them... not to mention Iglas and Kornets... if the US wants to play that game I am sure Russia will be happy to oblige.

    I do agree with Lulldapull that any American president just needs to say god wants them to do it and a large percentage of the population in the US will accept that as a good reason.

    Here is a quote from some guy I have never heard of before... but what he says seems to be exactly right:

    "Rove's re-election strategy was elegantly simple: Scare the bejesus out of Jesusland. F@ggots are headed your way! Satanic Muslims are hiding everywhere! That's all it took to get Jesusland to do the job. Intellectual conservatives like the National Review staff are flattering themselves if they honestly believe Jesusland cares about conservative thought. The "reality-based" folks are learning that Jesusland doesn't even care about jobs or the economy. In Jesusland, it's all the will of Jesus. No job? No money? Daughter got her clit pierced? Jesus is just f*cking with you again, testing your faith. Got the cancer? Oh well. Soon you'll be with Jesus. Reality is no match for a mystical world in which an all-powerful god is constantly toying with every detail of your mundane life, just to see what you'll do about it. Keep praying and always keep your eye out for homosexuals and terrorists, and you will eventually be rewarded ... all you have to do is die, and then it's SuperJesusLand, where you will be a ghost floating in a magic cloud with all the other ghosts from Jesusland, with Jesus Himself presiding over an Eternal Church Service." -- Ken Layne

    Corrosion

    Posts : 190
    Points : 205
    Join date : 2010-10-19

    Re: Georgia NATO/US Relations

    Post  Corrosion on Mon Jan 17, 2011 9:38 am

    Hoof wrote:What the heck are you talking about ? you don't make much sense = /
    His knickers are in twist because of this


    Last edited by Corrosion on Mon Jan 17, 2011 9:44 am; edited 2 times in total

    lulldapull

    Posts : 199
    Points : 240
    Join date : 2010-03-29
    Location : Nagoya

    Re: Georgia NATO/US Relations

    Post  lulldapull on Mon Jan 17, 2011 9:43 am

    I wish I could find something better to smoke or chew than this nasty Dutch tobacco here...... Very Happy

    Anyway, as Garry sheds more light on the hilljack mentality of terrorist behaviour, I am just more than obliged to portray it like it is......

    The hillbilly in Washington believe that Russians are satanists who need to be either brought under control, or killed off in a culling to satisfy their Hebrew and Israel loving God. Laughing

    So lets not fukkin go off the fake deep end here buddy!

    Russia is the only power standing between total (full spectrum dominance) and the status quo. Chinese are pussies, don't have the balls to hack it out if need be. Wink

    Corrosion

    Posts : 190
    Points : 205
    Join date : 2010-10-19

    Re: Georgia NATO/US Relations

    Post  Corrosion on Mon Jan 17, 2011 9:54 am

    lulldapull wrote:Chinese are pussies, don't have the balls to hack it out if need be. Wink
    Not true, Chinese only care about interests of Han China for now and they are building their country. Which is fair enough. They wont tolerate anybody interfering in that process.
    avatar
    Hoof

    Posts : 77
    Points : 79
    Join date : 2011-01-06
    Age : 27
    Location : HAFB, UT

    Re: Georgia NATO/US Relations

    Post  Hoof on Mon Jan 17, 2011 9:59 am

    Yeah... I doubt that chinese will just sit there, if things are going against them = /

    lulldapull

    Posts : 199
    Points : 240
    Join date : 2010-03-29
    Location : Nagoya

    Re: Georgia NATO/US Relations

    Post  lulldapull on Mon Jan 17, 2011 10:07 am

    Hey guys......lets be honest. There are enough Topol's, Satan's, Bulava's and a dozen other Russian nuclear ballistic missiles to turn the U.S. into a glass parking lot within 30 minutes.

    China does not even have close to the quality of 6000 warheads possessed by Russia right now...let alone the reliable means to deliver them....

    Hence the lack of balls and obedience that China displays when backed up against a wall. Rolling Eyes

    They wuss'd out in 97 when the 7th fleet was floating around Taiwan.

    Russia would have fukkin sunk it in half an hour!
    avatar
    Hoof

    Posts : 77
    Points : 79
    Join date : 2011-01-06
    Age : 27
    Location : HAFB, UT

    Re: Georgia NATO/US Relations

    Post  Hoof on Mon Jan 17, 2011 10:20 am

    lulldapull wrote:Hey guys......lets be honest. There are enough Topol's, Satan's, Bulava's and a dozen other Russian nuclear ballistic missiles to turn the U.S. into a glass parking lot within 30 minutes.

    China does not even have close to the quality of 6000 warheads possessed by Russia right now...let alone the reliable means to deliver them....

    Hence the lack of balls and obedience that China displays when backed up against a wall. Rolling Eyes

    They wuss'd out in 97 when the 7th fleet was floating around Taiwan.

    Russia would have fukkin sunk it in half an hour!

    You're right... but still even several hundred nukes can do a lot of harm... not all of them gonna reach anything, but even few nukes could kill a lot of people... Wonder if china can still deliver them on their bombers ? you know like Russian TU-160s... or whatever they have

    BTW. I changed my avatar lol

    Corrosion

    Posts : 190
    Points : 205
    Join date : 2010-10-19

    Re: Georgia NATO/US Relations

    Post  Corrosion on Mon Jan 17, 2011 10:26 am

    lulldapull wrote:China does not even have close to the quality of 6000 warheads possessed by Russia right now...let alone the reliable means to deliver them....
    First of all we dont know what is actual Chinese nuclear arsenel. They can manufacture 1000 warheads and launch systems if they think it is that important and they are not that dumb to underestimate the situation.
    Hence the lack of balls and obedience that China displays when backed up against a wall.
    What obedience are you talking about?? China is one country right now which doesn't care what US wants, examples include Currency issue etc. etc. etc.
    They wuss'd out in 97 when the 7th fleet was floating around Taiwan.
    This is 2011, not 1997.





    lulldapull

    Posts : 199
    Points : 240
    Join date : 2010-03-29
    Location : Nagoya

    Re: Georgia NATO/US Relations

    Post  lulldapull on Mon Jan 17, 2011 10:32 am

    Dude china doesn't have much.....No Backfire's....No Blackjacks.......not much.....their backbone right now is the Su-30MKK, with downgraded avionics that Russia pawned off to them, or they'd still be flying the F-6(mig-19) and F-7(mig-21-F-13) right now......and damn near proud of it too!lol!

    As far as avatar's go I personally liked the one from back in the early 80's which showed some arab dumnb ass runnin in the desert with a curved sabre drawn.........blarring............. HOLY WAR!
    The next shot was of the guy runnin the other way with a US missile chasing him..... blarring.... HOOOLLY SHIIITTT!

    Bhuwahahaaaaaaaa lol!

    I hope you can picture that cartoon Hoof, cuz it was fukkin hilarious! Very Happy

    Sponsored content

    Re: Georgia NATO/US Relations

    Post  Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Wed Oct 18, 2017 4:52 pm