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    Georgia NATO/US Relations

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    TheGeorgian

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    Re: Georgia NATO/US Relations

    Post  TheGeorgian on Sat Dec 09, 2017 12:30 am

    GarryB wrote:
    If it had mentioned intervention to support the rebels against the government then Russia would have vetoed.

    Russia knew exactly what was going to happen and the political determination to fight Gadaffis troops as well as the resolution was perfectly clear on that.

    bent the meaning of the reslution

    Nothing was "bent" anywhere. You are trying too hard GarryB

    backstabbing nature of the west


    Classic communist banter 1 + 1  Rolling Eyes


    Russia does nothing as bad as the west and does not preach to the world about how they should behave unlike the west.

    Russia just can't go as full retard as the US because they don't have the same power and influence.

    Except when it does within its limited sphere of influence ( or backyard as they like to call it ) their deceitful politics are awfuly clumsy and more obvious to the naked eye than that of the US.

    That's literaly the only difference.

    That makes Russia better in my book.

    lol right ....

    Won't judge your standarts, but simply ... no .... that's not how you have a valid argument.

    The purpose was to prevent bloodshed and stop the violence to start dialog and a political solution... not bomb the shit out of one side so the disorganised chaotic rebel side prevails.

    Yes, bloodshed caused first and foremost by the regime, and not only Gaddafis but also rebel forces were bombed, although their support seemed obvious. NATO even restricted their movements to lessen the continues bloodshed.

    The civilians are still fucking suffering even after the west called success, because they could care less about the Libyan civilians, their goal was to kill Gaddafi and they achieved that... pack up and go home.

    Just like everyone else who intervenes usualy does. Oh wait, not true ....

    Not justifying it btw. When you also cause damage, you also have to contribute to repairing the damage. Seen none of that, from either side in any recent conflict.

    WTF has that got to do with Europe and the necessity for NATO?

    Israel is a strong NATO ally and which the US has vowed to defend against any threat. Iran is consistant on threatening to destroy it. So put 1 and 1 togheter.

    Is the only thing keeping Europe safe is the existence of Israel fighting the good fight against those evil persians... after Israel is destroyed is Europe next or something?

    Actualy that's not a very far fetched prospect at all. Arab-Turkish regional dominance in past history speaks for itself.

    If they had the chance, they would re-emerge. But they won't because already fight eachother because of different beliefs in their own religion. One source of conflict that the "Western" world got rid off.


    What they really need to do is use the internet and get a Russian penfriend and actually talk to a few of these evil aggressors that want to occupy eastern europe again.

    Again, you are confusing nations manipulating governments with agendas and politics with the avarage people.

    The avarage population can perfectly differentiate between those as is easily observable in every society.

    Name me one people who outright hate Russians or vice versa.

    They take measures and complain because they are ill informed by people

    I am sorry, but that applies to both sides.


    Don't expect credit or recognition except when they want something...

    And in the end you will be giving rather more than you will ever get in return.

    We don't and we are. NATO support from the pop is dvindling continuesly since 2008.

    However they are aware that nothing else could possibly protect us against a currently continuesly aggressive Russia.

    If Russia wanted to destroy Georgia you handed them the opportunity on a plate in 2008.

    Yes, Saakashvili did indeed. But even the drunk hotheads in Kremlin aren't stupid enough to destroy an entire nation especialy when said attacked country didn't justify anything of that proportion and the rest of the world disapproves of it.

    What makes you think now that they want to invade you?

    Continous military buildup when there is zero NATO buildup.

    And more importantly even though the US seems keen what makes you think the rest of NATO wants you to join NATO?

    Nothing. I firmly believe we will never joint NATO because NATO fears exactly what we and the US want. Having NATO right next to Russia. The US tried to push us into NATO twice now and each time at least a couple or handful Nations vetoed that notion. Even one single veto is enough to not become a member. That is exactly why your "US is NATO" claim is complete bullshit.

    You can't say the western world agrees with you because the western world does not agree on anything.

    Thats funny.

    Now re read what you wrote in your previous replies and contemplate about it Wink

    There is no such thing... though for the price you might think so...

    Obviously not, but what we could do would be enough to cause more trouble for an attacker than he is comfortable with. That's more than enough.

    Yes, I can see the trial now... you are guilty of murder.... how do you plead... I am guilty of doing the deed your honour, but it was not my fault because the victim of my attack looked at me funny,... I simply had no choice but to attack.... I didn't realise the gun was loaded till after about the 5th round fired and by then I had to finish the job...

    Yeah no. Except "looked at me funny" doesn't equate to "instigating wars" and also "5th round shot" would fit more to what happened in 1993 to the Georgian population than anything else. Bad effort.

    Still tasteless humor ... also leave matters of law to people who know that shit. Murders ( be it out of self-defence, pure spite or provocation ) and crimes in general have many faccetts and yes, the motives actualy matter and do in fact decide over how much you are guilty or at all. So please, reading such ignorant nonsense as a jurist realy rustles my jimmies.  


    Excuse me, "backstabbing" ?

    You mean like when Russia backstabbed us, not one ( 1801 ), not two ( 1921 ), not three ( 1992 ) but four times now ?

    You got some tasteless humor.

    The history is irrelevant..

    wow *clap hands*, but proclaiming BS is relevant yes ?

    Of course it is unrelevant whenever it doesn't suit you.

    Georgia signed a peace treaty


    Yeah Russia also signed some treaties making them our allies but instead ended up annexing us. Whoops I guess.

    with agreed clauses that I am pretty sure did not allow the Georgian army to go into SO and shell its capital city.

    Funny because said clause also didn't allow Russian troops to act as saboteurs and boost their overall military presense way above any agreed "peacekeepers" mandate. Russia's MC presense was overshadowed by additional troops already long before the 2008 war.

    Russias behaviour was so obviously cheeky and sassy it did not even protest too much when the Georgian army boosted its presense in both regions in response to that.

    So what both sides ended up with, was MC forces boosted by further military presence. But who started ? Russia.

    Backstabbing is by definition promising to be friendly to conceal an attack without warning.

    Yea, we know that. Experienced that. Many times. Thank you.

    You lied and attacked without warning last time, why would they think you will change and give plenty of warning in writing next time?

    Without warning ? the Russian MC was warned beforehand. Their puppets in Tskhinvali were warned multiple times over the years to cease provocations or the military response would be harsh.

    So what, we should have let them keep shelling and saboutaging us ?

    ..... and wont do that by providing bases for the US and asking to join NATO, which as I said is a military organisation dedicated to "countering" Russia.

    Clearly Russia seeks a peaceful resolution with its recent and current behaviour .... We are the ones pushing fences and continuesly saboutaging the dialogue ....


    There are claims they will buy S-400 and Iskander but there are lots of claims about lots of things... mostly from the Jerusalem Post or other impartial media source...  Rolling Eyes


    You mean like the "claims" with Iran yes ?


    Stalin approached Poland and the UK for a military alliance against Germany and both rejected the whole idea.

    what a shitty ass excuse.

    Right. Now you're defending Stalin huh ?   Laughing

    as I said, whenever it suits you ppl ....

    The hostility of the polish forces and people probably made elimination of members of her military seem like a good idea at the time.

    Again. Are you sure you ain't the Nazi here ?

    Considering the number of people arbitrarily executed by all the power (including the US and UK and Germany and Japan) the fact that the Soviets did it too is no great surprise.

    Yeah especialy considering the earlier purges and domestic execution waves not only in Russia, but Georgia and all other Soviet Republics .... go read a book ....

    Lots of people opposed Stalins orders... they usually got shot on the spot.

    No excuse. That ppl who did were no less evil than the Gestapo, especialy with crimes against Jews as well.

    I don't need excuses...

    That's all you've been doing this entire time. Trying to find excuses for them.

    Nobody was talking about you .... or do you also have some skeletons in the closet ? ^^

    I haven't done anything, but it is you condemning the Russians over their past actions and alot of made up shit as well, without looking at who they were doing it to and why.

    That's the problem I have with people like you.

    You can for what ever mysterious reasons find great admiration and support for Russia and whatever they create and have complete understanding for their POV but utterly shit on everyone else who suffers under them. Its the pinnacle of hypocricy. Go fucking figure ....

    Either way, it does not change anything.

    It actualy reflects and validates a lot.

    That is not how you turn people on your side.

    They are as much a threat to a subdued Poland as the nazis are... if you can get them to kill each other all the better.

    Thank you. Subdued being the key word here.

    Why not simply liberate and simply leave ? same question you asked before Smile

    The west had the same policy.... let the Commies and the Nazis fight each other in a land war.. supply the commies with equipment and food and hope they destroy each other.

    They supplied the Soviets with equipment and food a) because Stalin requested it and b) hoping that the Wehrmacht gets worn out and slaughtered in Russia so that an allied invasion wouldn't be a catastrophy.

    No, at that time it was Germanys country.

    You are running not just low but also miserable in the excuses.

    An occupied nation, is still an occupied nation. No matter how you twist it, it doesn't belong to an invader just because he establishes a temporary hold. Even if he holds claim on it for several years or decades.

    Of course the Soviets wanted Poland to have a government friendly to the SU and not Britain.

    That's exactly the problem with expansionist policy. It won't work in the long term. Especialy when you offer little to nothing in return.

    When you "liberate", make sure, you actualy "liberate" and don't occupy. It will bite you in the ass eventualy. Just a matter of time.

    The first few landings might have failed, but they didn't even try because they didn't want to take casualties...and if you think it was so fucking hard to go across the english channel how the fuck did they get expeditionary forces to north africa or to invade Italy?

    Hold on there alright. It wasn't the rest of the allies fault that the Soviet leadership was inititaly so ruthless and uncaring to its own troops.

    Secondly, the British especialy and French already had forces in North Africa and those bore the brunt of the Axis ( initialy only Italian ) offensives there. Only later were they reinforced first with US equipment, than actual US troops and logisticaly speaking it was indeed a  nightmare for the Allies.

    How the hell did Aussie and Kiwi troops get to europe and africa to fight if moving forces by sea takes years of planning?

    Aussie and Kiwi troops always were part of Commonwealth forces no ?

    Britain declared war against Germany because Germany invaded Poland... surely if Poland is so fucking important a few million dead soldiers to liberate them should have been their first priority.

    Lmao. Now I know who I wouldn't put in charge of my army.

    So the fear of excessive casualties in their attacking force led directly to the Soviets spending much longer to defeat the Germans themselves with excessive losses.

    .... and you blame them for what exactly ?

    The Boers never did us any harm, and nor did the Germans or Japanese or Vietnamese for that matter... yet we travelled thousands of kms to kill them and be killed by them and for what?

    So who forced you ?

    No.

    When you fight back and keep fighting the bully eventually gives up and goes away because no matter how strong the bully country is it can never wipe out an entire country unless it does it poltiically.. ie palestine does not exist because it has been removed from all western maps.

    The palestinian people are still there though.

    Hahhahahha... and right and wrong have nothing to do with anything in conflict.

    The bully in case of Russia doesn't give up at all and the Palestinians don't because realy what are they supposed to do ? swim away, get drowned ?

    Really?

    I know it doesn't reflect current reality, but that's how it should be.

    The places the Soviets could "occupy" were agreed to.

    Look. I get where you're coming from, but those are simply no excuses for being the arguably slightly lesser asshole than the arguably slightly bigger one ....

    You still don't get that I neither approve US nor Russian aggression. I am only comparing and using them as counter argument to display how unjust any of that is.

    If the American military forces had gone home and left civilians to help with the rebuild the Soviets likely would have withdraw most if not all their forces too.

    We both perfectly know that wouldn't have been the case and in Stalins interests Wink

    Their purpose was to counter US forces and to ensure that Germany never again became a threat.

    Why "counter US forces" ?

    The only reason to counter US forces is because they stood in the way of further Soviet expansion.

    The US didn't want to take part in the war effort to begin with. They deemed the war as "the Europeans business, leave us out of it".


    Without the precedence of independence of Kosovo, the Russians would not have considered the solution of independent SO and Abkhazia as being acceptable.

    If Russia had not the ambition to maintain a military foothold in Georgia to prevent future aspiration of joining the EU it wouldn't have support any of the sessessions since the beakup. That is clear as water.

    Our mere existence is troubling them.

    Talk about massive insecurity

    1979 the CIA was kicked out of Iran, the reason the Soviets invaded Afghanistan was to stop them setting up shop there.

    See the reason why that doesn't hold up as excuse is because the Soviet spy cells were just as equaly all around the world including the United States ( as they are today ) as the US spy cells were all around the world including Russia, though comparably less, ( as they are today )

    And the American CIA claim responsiblity for the Soviet invasion, but all those millions dead was because of Afghan opposition stirred up by the west and Pakistan and Saudi Arabia.

    Right, because the Soviets didn't directly and physicaly contribute to that in the first place at all ....

    So the Russians are only as bad as the Americans.... OK...

    That's all I'm saying.

    Iranian weapons have been crossing that border for 30 years.... no, probably 300 years.

    That just proves the my point with Iran and the US has its own quarrels with the Pakistanis despite their fragile alliance.

    The simple fact is that might is right.


    Sad fact yes, legit excuse no.

    And when your little country attacked the even smaller region of SO you gave up your rights by stirring up an even bigger country.

    It simply doesn't add up as an excuse when you attack your own separatist region and in return ( for that very reason ) get attacked by a bigger nation that makes Shashlik out of its own domestic separatists.

    That is just bad comedy.

    So Russia can simply destroy sessessionists and committ mass murder, but we are to be restrained when trying to prevent sessession. Legit reasoning there buddy ....

    When Chechenia started attacking neighbouring regions Moscow had to do something.... remember the Moscow Theatre Siege? Beslan? I don't remember South Ossetian forces doing anything like that in Georgia...

    When armed militants started attacking Sukhumi, Tbilisi had to do something .... It did something, the region was secured but the armed insurgents were sheltered by the Russian army, so they couldn't be captured and prosecuted. But at least hostilities ended .... right ?

    Remember when there were still just those handfull but in the following months Russia snuck hundreds of instructors over the border, secured hunreds more paid mercenaries and then with thousands of armed combatants and troops with corresponding equipment and Russian airforce and naval support launched a surprise attack on the Georgian military ? Smile

    No. South Ossetian forces only committed several attacks on Georgian villages and troops that weren't even part of any of the skirmishes that typicaly took part between checkpoints.

    I have a question for you. I remember one of Putins former advisors ranting on TV about Kremlin should destroy Georgia for killing so many Russian troops during those skirmishes up until 2008. None of that was ever mentioned, nor denied in any Russian media outlet or by any official. If Russian troops were killed ( and they were as shown in more known engagements ) why did Russia not attack then or retaliate if they were so innocent ? ....

    Why?

    Do you think being part of NATO will save you if you try to take SO by force again?

    Is that a serious question ?

    Alright, I'll play your game. No. Obviously, technicaly speaking, the only guarantee for a successful military operation is complete withdrawal and neutrality of Russia.

    Secondly, we don't consider a military option in the first place. Neither now, if we join NATO or in the event Russian troops withdraw. Internal questions like that should never be even attempted to be solved like that.

    But I guess its okay if you can simply bomb or rape them into submission so they are terrifyed to even consider seperation for the next 1000 years. Apparently also works  dunno ( Sarcasm )

    NATO does squat for Turkey against the Kurds.

    NATO also doesn't intervene, nor support them, or did you see them kick Turkey out of the Alliance ( not least because of recent betrayals ) or establish a no fly zone even over the Iraqi part of the Kurdish population .... ?

    NATO does not oblige member states to join an attack on a third country... hense Turkey was not obliged to support the operation of Desert Storm despite it being led by NATO member US and including the UK and France etc etc.

    It is one of the main reasons they don't like taking countries with territorial disputes...

    You are literaly proving my case for NATO here. Thanks Smile

    Hahaha... I am a 6th generation New Zealander with my ancestry coming from England, Scotland, and Wales.

    If you say so. I already apologized for assuming.

    They did.

    And they seem happy with the result and are not calling for more votes.

    You know exactly what was meant Wink

    Sure you ain't the Nazi here ?

    The Soviet Union had an ideology to push, which means carrying the weak and pursuading the strong.

    Oh man .... are you a devoted communist or something ? because none of that procclaimed bullshit took form in any reality .... or you come from a parallel universe in which the Soviets conquered the Earth with all their love and caring .... ?

    Russia has no baggage and can ignore the weak that don't want to be friends... let them join NATO and be safe there... let the west pay for them.

    What is that to you then if you are so "not care" with your attitude ? clearly you take sides and very obviously support Russia and spite against the West and its allies.

    Israel is surrounded by hostile more populated countries which it has attacked on several occasions to steal land. Why should they be trusted with nuclear weapons either?

    Because you'd virtualy expose them to another attempt of genocide. Not just their capable arsenal but also the mere possibility they may be stockpiling some nukes is completly enough of a deterrent to make the Arabs think it a 100 times over.

    Plus the nukes they got aren't even missiles, but bombs I assume. So what, the Israelis an irrational threat to the world ? how are they worse than the US, Russia, India, China, England, France etc ?

    tell me, how stable is North Korea ? so stable I guess, that even Russia is concerned about their entire nuclear program because of recent events.

    how stable is the US.... a few more black people get shot by police and they can have problems...

    That is very unlikely ....  

    they have a two party system where everyone seems to be sick of both sides....


    How more boring and sick can it be than a one party system .... ?

    I mean granted if you are a great dictator and people love you ( or at least the vast majority ) than maybe it could turn into something, but with the current systems that are being used .... eh .... not so much.

    that is not going to end well... and they are the only country in the world to have actually used nuclear weapons against an enemy... unless you count Putin who regularly uses polonium to kill his enemies.... Twisted Evil Twisted Evil


    A fact that realy disgusts me even if they keep insiting on "casaulty reduction" which would seem only plausible for inhuman idk what ....

    You make fun of that, but do you know what physical torture that is ?

    Or the fact that the majority of the population in crimea are Russian, and its status being Ukrainian is merely bureaucratic nonsense from the cold war.

    Sigh ....

    You realy like to make everything look cuddly when it comes to Russian behaviour don't you .... ?

    The west pushed them into a corner with their coup in Kiev

    and they don't even have the balls to admit that, instead come up with bullshit excuses.

    Thanks for proving my point.

    It sill would have been an illegal intervention, sorry.  Very Happy

    Well first of all I don't see how you can equate Russian forces inside Russian borders with US and other NATO forces in Eastern Europe.... and second of all it does not bother me in the slightest where they practise... having them close to the border puts them in Iskander range.

    Easy. It's not just inside Russian borders, but foreign.

    Secondly, US is a NATO member and the US don't simply deploy their troops for manouvers into NATO or non-NATO states without their approval and permission .... and let's be perfectly honest here. None of those especialy Eastern European countries that do dissaprove of it. People come out and cheer.

    America has created such a strong image, that people applaude them simply when they see them. Wheter you approve of them or not, which I often don't either, you can't denie that fact.

    Russia is not the Soviet Union.... it has no political view to sell, so it can be friends with pretty much anyone.... and its communist heritage means it can be friends with communist china or communist north korea, or myanmar or cuba or Saudi arabia or Pakistan.

    So why then, does it struggle so much with literaly anyone even its allies ?

    The point is that no other country is obliged to be friends back, so while they can be friends with everyone there are plenty of people not interested like Poland or the UK.

    You mean politicaly. Because economicaly and culturaly there are not realy issues, until you threaten the EU with border conflicts and it dissaproves of Russias actions.

    Russia could bust a gut trying to be best buddies with everyone

    please spare me that river of fake tears ....

    Russia never busted anything trying to be best buddies with anyone. That is not of recent decades the case but their entire history. Generaly speaking there are only few nations or peoples that realy bust their guts and those are more Central-East European and Caucasian-Eastern nations.

    What I am saying is that to be friends with Poland or the US requires Russia to be their bitch...

    Not true at all. That means you and them are lacking imagination and actualy powerful and competent leadership, not what they have now. Putin is good at what he can, nothing can take that away from him, but thats about it, especialy when the rest sucks.

    That will be great for the US and overnight the rich people who own the media like CNN and Fox news will go from hating Russia to loving everything and anything about them, and soon after all of Russias resources will start to be used up faster than you can pour a drink of coke down a sink.

    Not when you are smart.

    Russia does not need those sort of friends....

    What Russia needs is a neighbourhood which trusts it and in turn can rely on and share innovations, ideas and resources ( not just raw material ).

    Russia has not annexed anything.

    Joke of the century.

    If you insist on joining NATO and letting the US military come and play on your territory there is nothing you can do to please Russia... other than not attack SO and Ab again.

    There is only one thing we insist on. Everything else is a consequence due thanks to Russia.

    It is about rebuilding trust

    The absurd notion is that Russia is in any position to demand that.

    I have told you plenty of times and you want to ignore me.

    Not ignoring, only pointing out how absurd that notion is. Nothing works just one way. It starts with the hypocrite bully learning to behave and respect others. No matter how small and weak he is.

    Noone is just bitter, because its a preferred state of mood. Its because factual reasons. You need to learn to understand that.

    What else is there to say?

    Idk, work for a peaceful environment, lead with example ? and all that stuff ? Russia established it won't. So we do.

    But its hard doing that when all we get in return is Russia is seeing our gesture as a sign of weakness and uses the situation and our reluctance to response like other nations would, to further boost military presence and push the fences. From our POV that is just unbelivably disgusting.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Georgia NATO/US Relations

    Post  GarryB on Sat Dec 09, 2017 10:52 am

    Israel is a strong NATO ally and which the US has vowed to defend against any threat. Iran is consistant on threatening to destroy it. So put 1 and 1 togheter.

    Hahahaha... not sure NATO would be happy with the stated job of keeping Israel safe... it really is none of their business.

    The US is slaved to the rich jews in the US... you suck up to israel or you don't get money to get elected.

    what a shitty ass excuse.

    Right. Now you're defending Stalin huh ? Laughing

    as I said, whenever it suits you ppl ....

    Defending Stalin from what?

    The accusation that he sided with Hitler because of the non aggression pact, the west also appeased hitler and pretty much ignored his actions until Poland was invaded.

    Not all of Stalins actions were bad.... many made sense including the invasion of Poland and the delay at warsaw. Other actions like the murder of Polish military personnel was less defensible, but then there were much worse things done in that war anyway.


    Again. Are you sure you ain't the Nazi here ?

    They were enemy soldiers... the Americans were happy to shoot Japanese soldiers and sailors who were surrendering too.

    No excuse. That ppl who did were no less evil than the Gestapo, especialy with crimes against Jews as well.
    Why are jews so fucking special?

    The Nazi concentration camps killed all sorts of people including disabled people, gay people, and Soviet people.

    That's the problem I have with people like you.

    You can for what ever mysterious reasons find great admiration and support for Russia and whatever they create and have complete understanding for their POV but utterly shit on everyone else who suffers under them. Its the pinnacle of hypocricy. Go fucking figure ....

    It is OK, I am a minority,,, the rest of the west cries for the jews and the eastern europeans.... great rivers of crocodile tears.


    Why not simply liberate and simply leave ? same question you asked before

    Because if they liberated all of Eastern Europe and then left then the US would move in to fill the void and after spending an enormous effort to kick the German Nazis out they would then have to deal with Americans on their borders... much better to deal with them in Germany instead.

    They supplied the Soviets with equipment and food a) because Stalin requested it and b) hoping that the Wehrmacht gets worn out and slaughtered in Russia so that an allied invasion wouldn't be a catastrophy.

    That is exactly what I said, though it would be better put that they SOLD weapons to Stalin so the Commies and Nazis would fight it out and kill each other.... lend lease was not free.

    Hold on there alright. It wasn't the rest of the allies fault that the Soviet leadership was inititaly so ruthless and uncaring to its own troops.

    At every meeting of the Allies Stalin asked for a second front to be opened.... he was ignored.


    Aussie and Kiwi troops always were part of Commonwealth forces no ?

    They went by sea in large troop ships... every bit as vulnerable to U boats as any other sea traffic.

    You still don't get that I neither approve US nor Russian aggression. I am only comparing and using them as counter argument to display how unjust any of that is.

    And You are not cynical at all jumping into bed with the US because you think that will get the attention of Russia.

    I have repeated that it will get Russias attention but not the attention you crave.

    The Russians wont start respecting Georgia just because you are carrying M4s and wearing US uniforms, just like they would not have respected you if you joined the Nazis in WWI Iike the baltic states all did.

    We both perfectly know that wouldn't have been the case and in Stalins interests

    He had a country to rebuild and a strong mistrust of the west which even just before the war started were plotting and planning against the Soviet Union.

    If the west had pulled back I rather doubt he would have escalated anything... his forces were in no position for another war.

    Stalin could have easily crushed Finland if he wanted too... the Soviet Armed forces in 1945 were nothing like the force the Finns defeated in the winter war.

    If he was so land mad why not crush Finland, and for that matter why not take all of China... they had already kicked the Japanese out of China, the Soviet Armed forces could easily have kept hold of the country for as long as they wanted.

    Where was Stalins land grabbing then?

    Why "counter US forces" ?

    The only reason to counter US forces is because they stood in the way of further Soviet expansion.

    The US didn't want to take part in the war effort to begin with. They deemed the war as "the Europeans business, leave us out of it".

    The reason to counter the US is because they represented a threat to the Soviet Union every bit as big as the Germany military had just done.

    If the US military forces had just left europe then the soviet forces would have no reason to stay either.

    Soviet expansionism is a joke.

    Our mere existence is troubling them.

    They could hardly care less about little georgia playing with the EU and US and NATO.


    Sad fact yes, legit excuse no.

    The amusing thing is that your moral compass seems to be guided by Disney and American Hollywood films, where there is a good guy and a bad guy and the good guy always wins and does it without breaking his morals...


    It simply doesn't add up as an excuse when you attack your own separatist region and in return ( for that very reason ) get attacked by a bigger nation that makes Shashlik out of its own domestic separatists.

    Because obviously your own seperatist region is yours to attack when you want and there should be no outside interference... except when you are Russia of course which has no right to deal with criminals in Chechnia...

    Because you'd virtualy expose them to another attempt of genocide. Not just their capable arsenal but also the mere possibility they may be stockpiling some nukes is completly enough of a deterrent to make the Arabs think it a 100 times over.

    Make the arabs think what? It has been Israel that has started all the recent conflicts... perhaps possession gives them too much confidence and they should be sanctioned and sieged the way they are treating the people on the Gaza strip.

    So what, the Israelis an irrational threat to the world ? how are they worse than the US, Russia, India, China, England, France etc ?

    Actually having nukes makes them 10000 times more of a threat to the world than Iran, yet you and the US and Israel bitch on about Iran like they are somehow a danger to anyone...

    How more boring and sick can it be than a one party system .... ?

    Even a one party system picks its candidates from a group of more than one, so in terms of choice it is practically communism.

    I mean granted if you are a great dictator and people love you ( or at least the vast majority ) than maybe it could turn into something, but with the current systems that are being used .... eh .... not so much.

    The only good thing about democracy is the ability to kick out the leadership every few years.

    The old joke as to why politicians are like babies nappies... they both need to be regularly changed and for the same reason...

    America has created such a strong image, that people applaude them simply when they see them.

    Yeah, they create a strong message in Japan too like when japanese schoolgirls are found raped and murdered and a few US sailors are sent home in a hurry...

    Those same european people came out and applauded the nazi soliders when they entered many of the countries... the applause didn't last long.


    So why then, does it struggle so much with literaly anyone even its allies ?

    Because thanks to western media and stereotyping most countries think Russia is still the Soviet Union.

    You are clearly drinking the western koolaide, Russia has nothing to gain from better relations with Georgia because you are friends with the US and NATO.

    They are not going to help you negotiate a friendship and even a reintegration with SO and AB, simply because for them that would result in you demanding they leave those territories and eventually the US and NATO putting bases there too.

    What is there for them?

    They gain nothing and in fact lose, so that Georgia will be nicer to them.

    No... so Georgia MIGHT be nicer to them.

    I doubt they see that as worth the effort, in fact it goes against their interests and they will likely not cooperate.

    Like I said if you drop the US and NATO and EU you might have a shot because I suspect they would rather not be occupying SO and Ab, simply because that is money down the drain. The US on the other hand loves to spend money on foreign bases... the trick is to get them to leave afterwards...
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    Tsavo Lion

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    Re: Georgia NATO/US Relations

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Fri Aug 10, 2018 12:44 am

    War 08.08.08 & 10 years of struggle for the sovereignty of Russia
    https://jpgazeta.ru/aleksandr-rodzhers-voyna-08-08-08-i-desyat-let-borbyi-za-suverenitet-rossii/?utm_medium=referral&utm_source=infox.sg&utm_campaign=exchange

    Russian PM hopes NATO will have enough sense not to admit Georgia
    http://tass.com/politics/1016262

    PM Medvedev Warns Of 'Horrible' Conflict If Georgia Joins NATO
    http://www.eurasiareview.com/08082018-russia-pm-medvedev-warns-of-horrible-conflict-if-georgia-joins-nato/

    Now that Armenia is leaving the RF orbit, Georgia may feel that her rear is secure:
    https://eurasianet.org/s/armenian-investigators-charge-head-of-russia-led-security-bloc-with-subverting-public-order

    https://www.rferl.org/a/lavrov-russia-concerned-armenian-arrest-former-pro-moscow-leaders-kocharian-khachaturov-pashinian/29402249.html

    https://eurasianet.org/s/russian-press-portrays-pashinyan-as-carbon-copy-of-poroshenko

    If a 2nd war breaks out, Georgia may be cut in half for direct land access to Armenia from the N. & S. Ossetia.



    RF may also use the Azeris to put military pressure on Armenia.
    Clearly, too many things r at stake there for Russia!
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    Re: Georgia NATO/US Relations

    Post  GarryB on Fri Aug 10, 2018 8:41 am

    When I first saw the suggestion that Georgia might be split to allow Russian land access to Armenia, I dismissed it out of hand, but after thinking about it... if you had said that Russia would not only get full control of Sevastopol, but also the whole pennisula of the Crimea in the 90s or early 2000s I would have laughed at you and said it would not be possible without enormous bloodshed...

    Of course who knew how stupid the US can be when it breaks up countries for its own interests... they clearly wanted Sevastopol for a NATO port and they totally blew it.

    In this case they want gas pipes from the Caspian that bypass Russia... wonder what mistake they might make next....
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    Tsavo Lion

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    Re: Georgia NATO/US Relations

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Sun Aug 12, 2018 11:53 pm

    By admitting Georgia into the alliance, NATO could send a message to Russia. But by the same token, some Western officials worry that Georgia joining NATO could provoke Moscow. Visiting Washington, Alasania not only laid out the case for Georgian accession, but sought to calm fears that Georgia would be dragging anyone into a war—and that Tbilisi expects other countries to do the main work of defending Georgia. “No one is asking for others to do our fighting for us,” he said. But collective defense is exactly what NATO is for. Some member states strongly oppose admitting Tbilisi.
    https://medium.com/war-is-boring/the-republic-of-georgia-is-preparing-for-the-worst-776541b1edb2

    Role of Georgia in the War in Afghanistan (2001–14) & Iraq
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Role_of_Georgia_in_the_War_in_Afghanistan_(2001%E2%80%9314)
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Role_of_Georgia_in_the_Iraq_War#Deployment_history

    They'll come to regret it: Trump’s Foreign Policy on Georgia – You Helped Us, Now “U are Bad 4-Doing-So!”
    https://journal-neo.org/2017/02/16/trump-s-foreign-policy-on-georgia-you-helped-us-now-u-are-bad-4-doing-so/
    US Mil. Accuses Georgians of Stealing From US AB in Afghanistan
    https://sputniknews.com/military/201807311066835061-us-military-accuse-georgian-troops-stealing/

    In contrast,
    The Azerbaijani government has however delayed implementing IPAP-recommended reforms, however, in part at least because no decision had been taken to seek NATO membership. This is because Azerbaijan's foreign policy 'seeks to balance interests with the U.S., EU, Russia and Iran.' https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azerbaijani_Armed_Forces#NATO
    They use & play bigger countries off each other: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azerbaijani_Armed_Forces#Turkey

    Armenia is also moving in that direction:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armed_Forces_of_Armenia#International_military_cooperation

    Note that all 3 of them don't like & fought each other:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenians_in_Georgia
    http://minorityrights.org/minorities/armenians-2/
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenians_in_Abkhazia#History

    http://www.armenian-history.com/Nyuter/demography/Demographic%20changes%20of%20Armenian%20population%20of%20Georgia%20and%20their%20political%20consequences%20(at%201918-since%20our%20days).htm

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenians_in_Azerbaijan
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_minorities_in_Azerbaijan#1991_to_present

    As in Ukraine, there r Challenges to coexistence in Georgia
    http://www.css.ethz.ch/content/dam/ethz/special-interest/gess/cis/center-for-securities-studies/pdfs/CSSAnalyse-186-EN.pdf

    Georgians alienated & antagonized their Ossetians & Abhasians; that ended their control over them. RF may count on Russian, Ukrainian, Georgian Armenians &/ Azeris to help her truncate Georgia once more, thus preventing another Kosovo & Montenegro scenario.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenians_in_Russia#Soviet_Russia
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenians_in_Ukraine#Armenian_community_in_modern_Ukraine
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenians_in_Samtskhe%E2%80%93Javakheti
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azerbaijanis_in_Russia
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azerbaijanis_in_Ukraine
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azerbaijanis_in_Georgia#Present-day


    Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Mon Aug 13, 2018 1:30 am; edited 7 times in total (Reason for editing : add links, text)
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    Tsavo Lion

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    Re: Georgia NATO/US Relations

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Wed Aug 15, 2018 2:46 am

    Also, all 3 + Chechens have their ethnic organized crime groups operating in Russia:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgian_mafia#In_Russia

    Georgian mafia launders $7B in Russia for ‘small victorious war’
    http://www.pravdareport.com/russia/politics/17-10-2006/85094-mafia-0/

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azerbaijani_mafia#History

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_mafia

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chechen_mafia#In_Moscow
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    TheGeorgian

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    Re: Georgia NATO/US Relations

    Post  TheGeorgian on Mon Oct 01, 2018 8:50 pm

    I really hope the Armenians completly shake off Russian dominance and somehow burry the hatchet with Azerbaijan. The current situation is redicilous and stripped of any reasoning.
    Both Armenia and Azerbaijan receive arms and military hardware from Russia eventough Russia officialy sides with Armenia. Blood money is nothing new, but doing it so nonchalant without even hiding it is another level and the Armenians are not happy about that at all.
    Russia must finaly arrive in the 21st century and acknowledge the existence, souvereignity and internationaly recognized borders of its neighbours. All of Georgia's efforts since the mid 1990s are a direct consequence of Russian inteference and aggression. We've been non-stopped threatened and violated as soon as we declared our 2nd independence. A country centuries older than its northern neighbour. You can't twist that fact in any way perceivable, even when Georgia overreacted to provocations in 2008. There were so many violations committed by Russian forces, their status as "peacekeepers" was questioned at that point by everyone. Alleged of sabotage, illegaly distributing Russian passports, skirmishes, arming and training of rebels aka taking side from the very beginning, which completly violates and nullifies their mandate already there, and what not .... Things didn't start there in the first place but apparently Russians choose to believe in fairy tales rather than historical facts, and apparently history only began in 2008 .... Sorry to break it to you, but it began with the Bolsheviks stirring up revolts in the 1920s, the same tactic was used by the Russian Federation in 1991 and we know the rest. Literaly not one single point of the Peace Agreement has thus far been respected by Russia.
    Things are made worse by Russia's continues policy of aggression and heavy mentality of no F's given since 2009. Every single Georgian village in South Ossetia that was not destroyed as a consequence of the war, was leveled in order to prevent refugees from returning home, with the excuse that the territory was required for Russian military bases. It would be funny if it wasn't so tragic for the people. Their homes got completly flattened for that purpose. Some 17k people from SO are stuck in IDP camps to this very date. Instead of showing somewhat simphaty an have a base for compromise, fences and wires are installed, partialy going through inhabitated Georgian villages at the Russian proclaimed "border" lines, which they push ever deeper into never before contested Georgian territory every singe year since 2008.
    Mind you, all of that is observed at place and documented by the international community and their observers.
    There is virtualy not even any kind of tactical / strategic justificaiton from their own POV for that behaviour, its 10 years after the war.
    Not to mention how people living near those imaginary "borders" regularily get robbed, kidnapped, tortured and murdered by their separatist muppets and possibly also themselves.
    Dare me more "RuSsIa iS ThE tRuE ViCtim" ....
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    Tsavo Lion

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    Re: Georgia NATO/US Relations

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Mon Oct 01, 2018 9:36 pm

    Armenia, Korea & Byzantium r even more ancient but the empires that come after them don't have any such scruples & could care less.
    In fact, the Russian empire saved Georgia from the Ottoman Empire of Turkey; it could become a 2nd Armenia otherwise.
    If ethnic Georgian Stalin wasn't in power for so long, Russia & Georgia would be different today. There must be a good reason for separatism in ex-Georgian "provinces"; also Georgia supported the Chechen rebels, allowed her volunteers to fight for Ukraine in Donbass & wants to join NATO. So, don't fault Russia for protecting her interests in Transcaucasia!
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    GarryB

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    Re: Georgia NATO/US Relations

    Post  GarryB on Tue Oct 02, 2018 12:32 am

    Russia is not the victim.... the South Ossetian and Abkhazians are the victims and Georgia is the bully, but Russia is a bigger bully and stopped Georgia from raping SO and ABk.

    Now Georgia has started the process of joining a military gang called NATO in the hopes that its new friends might be able to give it some leverage, but I doubt SO and ABk cares.

    It will certainly bother Russia, but that will only make thing easier to justify all those fences and guns and armour in SO and ABk to keep the peace.

    Amusing that the country you suck up to created your dire situation today...

    If Kosovo did not declare independence then Russia would not have opened its borders to SO and ABk, and they would never have been able to become more independent of Georgia.

    Letting Georgians go back to SO and ABk is rather unlikely, they have no homes to go back to, and their influence in politics is not welcome I would suspect, because their view of Georgia is rather different from those who stayed in SO and ABk and those that died at the hands of the Georgian troops.

    There must be a good reason for separatism in ex-Georgian "provinces"; also Georgia supported the Chechen rebels, allowed her volunteers to fight for Ukraine in Donbass & wants to join NATO.

    Indeed... Georgia is actively setting itself up to oppose Russia whereever it can... why would Russia want to be friends?

    As I have said... it is not about friendship... there is none... so that leaves interests...

    The best thing Georgia could do is kick the Americans and NATO out and say they are sorry for the actions they have taken that have damaged relations, and in a few generations when things settle down their might be a possibility of getting SO and ABk to rejoin Georgia, but joining NATO and rearming is the opposite of that... it might make you feel safer, but will not get you what you really want... in fact it will take you further away from what you desire... but it is your choice... keep blaming Russia for all your problems and keep believing the West is somehow nicer and better and has your interests at heart.
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    TheGeorgian

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    Re: Georgia NATO/US Relations

    Post  TheGeorgian on Tue Oct 02, 2018 2:01 am

    Tsavo Lion wrote:Armenia, Korea & Byzantium r even more ancient but the empires that come after them don't have any such scruples & could care less.
    In fact, the Russian empire saved Georgia from the Ottoman Empire of Turkey; it could become a 2nd Armenia otherwise.
    If ethnic Georgian Stalin wasn't in power for so long, Russia & Georgia would be different today. There must be a good reason for separatism in ex-Georgian "provinces"; also Georgia supported the Chechen rebels, allowed her volunteers to fight for Ukraine in Donbass & wants to join NATO. So, don't fault Russia for protecting her interests in Transcaucasia!

    It doesn't matter if it's just Kingdom of Georgia from 1000 to 1500 or Colchis/Iberia. Same issue. My point is that Russia tries to envoke claims on territories and peoples that don't belong to them and far predate Russia as a unified empire and / state.

    Well it's very evident that they don't, but they should because we and the others they deal with, do care. Its our culture, our history, our lands.

    In fact, the Russian empire saved Georgia from the Ottoman Empire of Turkey

    You and some others here and in such discussions supporting the poor and unsupported Russian narrative, have a very strange definition of "saving".

    First of all, Armenians and especialy Georgians prevented countless islamic invasions over the Caucasus mountains into nowadays Russia by just #existing. Well except for the Mongols, they consistently overran whatever they came across.

    Secondly, when Georgia was bloodied and on it's knee as a result of Ottoman and Persian invasions, yes true, it turned to it's Christian brother to the north for aid and signed, or was rather forced out of dire necessity to sign, the treaty of Georgievsk, not earlier than 1783, which made Georgia effectively a Russian protectorate if not so formaly.
    When the Persians invaded again, the Russians ignored the call for help and watched as Georgia got slaughtered. Their excuse was "turmoil in Europe". Fine. Let's accept that for a moment.
    But what about afterwards ? same thing. Only now the Russians replaced the Persians as invaders and annexed all of Georgia and that was easy because resistance was virtualy gone at that point and the Persians were busy anyway.
    No that period of slowly annexing every Georgian principality one by one is not "saving". You don't "save" anyone, when people don't want you to annex them, and are fighting against you with what breath remains in them .....
    Consequently after defeating the last remains of resistance, half of the Georgian nobility was relocated to Russia and russified while the other half had to swear allegience and fealty at gun point.
    Tell me, how the F is that "saving" .... ?

    Just minor *details* right .... ? ^^

    Ok, fine. Let's ignore that for a moment.
    Did the Georgians EVER benefit from that ? no. Did the Russians ? hell yeah. Tens of thousands of Georgians and many famous generals fought and won victories for them in the Caucasus, Crimea and Persia. Georgia only suffered from Russian military ambitions as pretty much the supply storage and massing area.

    Oh yeah, also lot of "saving" in 1921 ....

    There must be a good reason for separatism in ex-Georgian "provinces";

    Yes ! incidently, there happens to be a story behind it. If people actualy took the effort to at least glance over the history of other nations, they'd know.
    The modern Ossetian conflict dates back to the 1920s when the Bolsheviks stirred everything up as their greater plan to invade the South Caucasus. The Ossetians / or Alans actualy are not indeginous to Georgia. They settled from Persia to the North Caucasus aka nowadays Russia. But as a result of Mongol invasions they were driven off their homeland and migrated to Georgia and thought it was a good plan to force themselves upon us by simply invading and removing the Georgian population from the area. They took a foothold, and occupied Gori for some decades but were then driven back over the mountains when the Georgian monarch regained power. Many centuries later, they began to migrate again, now due to the Circassians pushing them out of their homeland, only now the Georgian ruler of Kartli ( thus why Georgians refer to it as Shida Kartli and not "South Ossetia" ) allowed them to actualy settle down besides the Georgians living there. So they kept slowly migrating from the 17-18th century on.
    All was peaceful until the Bolsheviks took over in Russia and instigated revolts in Kartli with the Ossetians first demanding and then forcefuly taking the lands they lived on from the local Georgian feudal lords killing them and also taking the town Tskhinvali murdering and expelling its Georgian population. The Georgian government in return restored order after bloody fighting and committed punitive actions against the rebels. Seeing how rebelions didn't work out too well in the South Caucasus, Russia simply invaded the Democratic Republic of Georgia in 1921, took over and renamed the Kartli province to "South Ossetian Autonomous Oblast" and thus a base for future conflicts was crafted. So yes, nothing of that is remotely legitimate. Not historicaly, not rightfully, not even by name. There is your good, or rather foul, reason if you are an even remotely sane person. It's called history.

    also Georgia supported the Chechen rebels

    Bullshit. When. Where. How. ?

    Chechens fought us in Abkhazia, in South Ossetia in the 1990s and again in 2008.

    When Russia massacred half of Chechnya refugees streamed over our border. We did what humans would have done.
    But many fighters were among them, and we tried to disarm them, and captured we could.

    In fact, Georgian security services often assisted, gave intel, and also extradited captured Chechen insurgents to Russia. What Russians are upset about, is that we chose the United States to train and help our army instead of allowing Russian troops onto our territory to fight Chechens themselves. So in retaliation they made up fake ass stories about how we supposedly "hosted" and "trained" them and present a threat, all to avoid US foothold in Georgia. Laughable. I can tell you a number of ppl who fought them in the mountains. Many also died.

    allowed her volunteers to fight for Ukraine in Donbass & wants to join NATO

    What is this .... a joke ? yeah, completly out of the blue. No background whatsoever. Why am I even trying .... ?

    People from all countries go volunteer fighting for ISIS including your Korea.

    Ukrainians are our allies and a couple dozen veterans who don't even serve in the GAF felt obliged to help our Ukrainian allies against a common threat. That is absolutly understandable. Half of them are people who actualy live there. So did people from many other countries join the Ukrainians.

    The Geo government officialy forbids that, but that's something you can't control anyway. I personaly don't mind. To me its just a sad waste of good resource in another dirty Russian instigated proxy war.


    So, don't fault Russia for protecting her interests in Transcaucasia!

    Damn that statement is so over the top cheesy, toxic and offensive I almost vomited.

    Russia is not the only country on the globe.

    Russia is not the only country others need to respect the souvereignity and integrity of.

    Don't fault other peoples and nations for opposing Russia to defend their own lifes and lands!

    You talk as if Russia was the only country on this planet. Wonder if you'd be equaly supporting if you found yourselves in our situation.


    Last edited by TheGeorgian on Tue Oct 02, 2018 2:57 am; edited 7 times in total
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    TheGeorgian

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    Re: Georgia NATO/US Relations

    Post  TheGeorgian on Tue Oct 02, 2018 2:02 am

    GarryB wrote:Russia is not the victim.... the South Ossetian and Abkhazians are the victims and Georgia is the bully....

    ....Georgia is actively setting itself up to oppose Russia whereever it can....

    ....say sorry....

    what is this, a contest of who writes the more autistic comment ? ^^

    If anything, the right thing to do: is for Russia to apologize for all the conflicts it instigated, second the Abkhazians for what they've done especialy with all the massacres and mass exodus of the Georgian majority in the region. Actualy if they had any decency, they would first. But they won't anyway seing how thes celebrate their mass murderers as heros.

    But yes, that's now how it works, since Russia is the more powerful nation. So yeah, utlimately Georgia will lead with example, once again, followed by Russia if they have any sense of decency, honor and anything humane left. Guess, that will never happen.

    Georgia does everything in its power to normalise relations, Russia does the total opposite. Facts don't lie and the world is not blind. They are literaly there damnit and withnessing and documenting everything. Why are you still lying out of your bottocks ? Russia boosts its presence ever further in both occupied provinces. Georgia tries desperatly to acquire measures of self defence, with little to no results so far but some minor acquirements that have insigificant meaning. NATO will NEVER allow Georgia to be part of them. That is virtualy manifested.

    What you propose is so laughable, not even Kremlin's PR machine believes in it.

    Why is it that you supposedly "non-Russians" living abroad, are always more toxic than full blooded Russians, whom you can at least reason with and trust to have the very least basic educational and historical knowledge ?

    Is is that you are trying to prove yourselves .... ?
    You don't prove yourself by such levels of ignorance and denial of reality.
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    Tsavo Lion

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    Re: Georgia NATO/US Relations

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Tue Oct 02, 2018 3:35 am

    People from all countries go volunteer fighting for ISIS including your Korea.
    I'm not Korean, but do u have any sources about Koreans fighting for ISIS? In any case, does Georgia prosecute its citizens who been fighting for Ukraine?
    Its our culture, our history, our lands
    U r biased:
    Georgian people formed a unified Kingdom of Georgia in the early 11th century and inaugurated the Georgian Golden Age, a height of political and cultural power of the nation. This lasted until being weakened by Mongol invasions, as well as internal divisions following the death of George V the Brilliant, the last of the great kings of Georgia. Thereafter and throughout the early modern period, Georgians became politically fractured and were dominated by the Ottoman Empire and successive dynasties of Iran. To ensure the survival of his polity, in 1783, Heraclius II of the eastern Georgian kingdom of Kartli-Kakheti forged an alliance with the Russian Empire. The Russo-Georgian alliance, however, backfired as Russia was unwilling to fulfill the terms of the treaty, proceeding to annex the troubled kingdom in 1801, as well as the western Georgian kingdom of Imereti in 1810. Russian rule over Georgia was eventually acknowledged in various peace treaties with Iran and the Ottomans, and the remaining Georgian territories were absorbed by the Russian Empire in a piecemeal fashion in the course of the 19th century. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgians
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abkhazia#Within_the_Russian_Empire

    After Soviet leader Joseph Stalin, a native Georgian, died in 1953, a wave of protest spread against Nikita Khrushchev and his de-Stalinization reforms, leading to the death of nearly one hundred students in 1956. From that time on, Georgia would become marred with blatant corruption and increased alienation of the government from the people.
    By the 1980s, Georgians were ready to abandon the existing system altogether. A pro-independence movement led to the secession from the Soviet Union in April 1991. For most of the following decade, post-Soviet Georgia suffered from civil conflicts, secessionist wars in Abkhazia and South Ossetia, and economic crisis. Following the bloodless Rose Revolution in 2003, Georgia strongly pursued a pro-Western foreign policy; aimed at NATO and European integration, it introduced a series of democratic and economic reforms. This brought about mixed results, but strengthened state institutions. The country's Western orientation soon led to the worsening of relations with Russia, culminating in the brief Russo-Georgian War in August 2008 and Georgia's current territorial dispute with Russia.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgia_(country)

    Under the rule of Stalin and Beria Abkhaz schools were closed, requiring Abkhaz children to study in the Georgian language. The publishing of materials in Abkhazian dwindled and was eventually stopped altogether; Abkhazian schools were closed in 1945/46. In the terror of 1937-38, the ruling elite was purged of Abkhaz and by 1952 over 80% of the 228 top party and government officials and enterprise managers were ethnic Georgians; there remained 34 Abkhaz, 7 Russians and 3 Armenians in these positions. Georgian Communist Party leader Candide Charkviani supported the Georgianization of Abkhazia.
    The policy of repression was eased after Stalin's death and Beria's execution, and the Abkhaz were given a greater role in the governance of the republic. As in most of the smaller autonomous republics, the Soviet government encouraged the development of culture and particularly of literature.[citation needed] The Abkhazian ASSR was the only autonomous republic in the USSR in which the language of the titular nation (in that case Abkhazian) was confirmed in its constitution as one of its official languages.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abkhazia#Within_the_Soviet_Union
    Pl. don't tell me that Abkhazians migrated from elsewhere before inundating & pushing the native Georgians out. Past injustices between Ossetians & Georgians r not justification for of what happened in 2008.
    W/o the Russian Empire annexing Georgia, there probably wouldn't be Georgia now, or at least 1 within its present borders, & a Georgian like Stalin would never have a chance to rule not only Georgia, but 1/6th of the Earth surface. His despotism cost many millions of Russian lives, putting him on a par with Hitler & Mao in their respective countries.
    Another serious blow was the August 2008 five-day war with Russia over the Georgian separatist region of South Ossetia. Analysts say it was an example of Mr. Saakashvili's erratic tendency to act quickly, without considering the consequences.
    Experts such as Stephen Jones at Mount Holyoke College in Massachusetts say Mr. Saakashvili's decision to attack South Ossetia's capital, Tskhinvali, was a colossal mistake. "The Georgian army was clearly not prepared for a war like this. It led to a rapid decline in foreign direct investment in Georgia and a rapid decline in growth, reinforced, of course, by the economic crisis. To some extent, it was a humiliation for Saakashvili. ..
    As a result of Russia's victory, Moscow now has firm economic and political control over South Ossetia and over another Georgian separatist region, Abkhazia. In addition, Russia has recognized the independence of both regions.
    https://www.voanews.com/a/a-13-2009-09-01-voa48-68756972/410452.html

    ..what Russia has been doing for the last ten years toward Tbilisi, Sukhumi and Tskhinvali is fully in keeping with the foreign policy logic that it conducts in the post-Soviet space and beyond it - it does not allow NATO and the EU to the new territories and restores its influence everywhere where local state institutions and civil society are so weak that they can not prevent it - this is the policy that it conducts very consistently and quite successfully; At the same time, as the cases with Georgia and Ukraine have clearly shown, it uses any method to achieve its goals, - from occupation to annexation. In its first part, or in "not letting" Georgia from its grasp, Russia is partially successful - the prospects of Georgia's integration into NATO ten years after the Bucharest summit are still vague; Membership in the EU seems also unrealistic so far. However, one thing is de jure, and the real situation is quite different - today both NATO and the EU are much more presented in Georgia than in 2008, and vice versa.
    This is a rather strange situation, when, in spite of the increasing presence of NATO and the EU, today, however, there’s more and more Russia in Georgia as well - economic relations, increasing number of tourists, cultural and humanitarian contacts - all these are growing tendencies; Here have appeared the new political parties, - some of them are presented in the parliament of Georgia, - whose perception of Russia is more positive than negative.
    https://ge.boell.org/en/2018/08/07/decade-august-war-pragmatic-ossetians-disillusioned-abkhazs-unpredictable-russians-and-us

    The Georgian leadership will continue to pay lip service to the country’s Euro-Atlantic orientation. In a country where three quarters of the population supports EU and NATO membership, they could hardly do otherwise. But in practice, the evidence available suggests that the country is now led by leaders who have no particular affinity for the West, and who are at the very least susceptible to Russian pressure. In terms of an active and effective policy of Euro-Atlantic integration, Georgia may just have been neutralized.
    https://www.the-american-interest.com/2014/11/13/is-georgia-slipping-away/
    There's no such thing as a "benevolent empire". That's why Georgia should follow the "if u can't beat them, join them!" principle. In the long run, joining NATO/EU won't help. The alliance can barely contain Turkey-Greece conflict & in a few years may be replaced by the EU or the "European Force". Most of Georgia isn't even in geographical Europe. The largest exercises in 30 years are held in the south of Russia
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    TheGeorgian

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    Re: Georgia NATO/US Relations

    Post  TheGeorgian on Tue Oct 02, 2018 8:45 am

    In any case, does Georgia prosecute its citizens who been fighting for Ukraine?

    No. Because they are all in the Ukraine and Ukrainian citizens fighting for Ukraine can't be prosecuted by Georgia.

    Does Russia prosecute their murdering horde of mercenaries they send in every proxy war since 1991, slaugthering and beheading people ?
    or do we rather see them being celebrated as heros and given medals ? ( hint: that's a rhetorical question )

    U r biased

    That's rich, look who's talking.

    You are OK with supporting a country that committed several genocides, massacres, invasions and fighting seaparatism in their own country with ballistic missiles and full prejudice to uphold territorial integrity.

    But for some reason when Georgia tries to maintain its souvereignity and fight foreign instigated sessession, that's an outcry !

    Tragicomedy.

    Georgian people formed a unified Kingdom of Georgia in the early 11th century and inaugurated the Georgian Golden Age, a height of political and cultural power of the nation. This lasted until being weakened by Mongol invasions, as well as internal divisions following the death of George V the Brilliant, the last of the great kings of Georgia. Thereafter and throughout the early modern period, Georgians became politically fractured and were dominated by the Ottoman Empire and successive dynasties of Iran. To ensure the survival of his polity, in 1783, Heraclius II of the eastern Georgian kingdom of Kartli-Kakheti forged an alliance with the Russian Empire. The Russo-Georgian alliance, however, backfired as Russia was unwilling to fulfill the terms of the treaty, proceeding to annex the troubled kingdom in 1801, as well as the western Georgian kingdom of Imereti in 1810. Russian rule over Georgia was eventually acknowledged in various peace treaties with Iran and the Ottomans, and the remaining Georgian territories were absorbed by the Russian Empire in a piecemeal fashion in the course of the 19th century. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgians
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abkhazia#Within_the_Russian_Empire
    ....
    ..what Russia has been doing for the last ten years toward Tbilisi, Sukhumi and Tskhinvali is fully in keeping with the foreign policy logic that it conducts in the post-Soviet space and beyond it - it does not allow NATO and the EU to the new territories and restores its influence everywhere where local state institutions and civil society are so weak that they can not prevent it - this is the policy that it conducts very consistently and quite successfully; At the same time, as the cases with Georgia and Ukraine have clearly shown, it uses any method to achieve its goals, - from occupation to annexation. In its first part, or in "not letting" Georgia from its grasp, Russia is partially successful - the prospects of Georgia's integration into NATO ten years after the Bucharest summit are still vague;

    Mate. You are literaly verifying what I said and making my point. Thank you I guess ?

    You seem to like wiki as source. Since you're educating yourself on the topic, instead of trying to find more poorly crafted excuses ( which none of the articles provide you btw, they just repeat what I've already said a 100 times in this thread - like why are you even quoting them ? ), read the history of "South Ossetia" very carefuly and stop distracting from the topic.

    Past injustices between Ossetians & Georgians r not justification for of what happened in 2008.

    Oh please, this is becoming sad .... that's such a stereotypical response.

    Again, history didn't start in 2008, no matter how you Russians and their stubborn supporters want to twist it. That's not how the world works. You cannot simply judge Georgia for something you've started and then we tried to prevent, yet at the same time bomb one of your own regions back to the stone age with half its population because of the exact same reasons. You condemn our actions, but not that ? where is the logic in all of that ? how are you not even questioning your own hypocricy and contradictions ?

    W/o the Russian Empire annexing Georgia, there probably wouldn't be Georgia now, or at least 1 within its present borders

    Georgia survived much worse in its history. We would have eventualy shaken off the Persians like we did many times before.
    Russia literaly backstabbed an ally because it saw an opportunity. Stop justifying it. A proper ally would have supported and then left, not annex. You keep repeating the same nonsense over and over. When will it stop ? why does everyone have to fear losing an entire arm when offering Russia a fingernail ? Just .... stop.

    Stop searching non-existent justifications for crimes and warmongering and learn to treat your neighbours with at least some form of respect instead of just taking what doesn't belong to you and demanding without offering all the time.
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    Tsavo Lion

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    Re: Georgia NATO/US Relations

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Tue Oct 02, 2018 8:22 pm

    But for some reason when Georgia tries to maintain its sovereignty and fight foreign instigated secession, that's an outcry!
    That is a convenient excuse many big countries invoke. W/o local grievances & grassroots support, secession can't proceed even with help from abroad.
    Georgia survived much worse in its history. We would have eventually shaken off the Persians like we did many times before.
    Maybe so, but w/o Russia stopping them, the Azeris & their brothers the Turks would do to u what they did to Greeks & Armenians in Asia Minor.
    There's 1 thing that only matters- it's called "the right of conquest".
    As the "3rd Rome" & inheritor of the Golden Horde, Moscow felt obligated to secure her perimeter, & for Russia, the Caucasus is a natural barrier in the South that the Mongols themselves crossed 12 years before their full scale invasion of Russian lands from the East. Georgia too shelled & killed civilians in Tskhinvali: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Tskhinvali#Artillery_preparation
    https://www.hrw.org/news/2008/08/12/russia/georgia-investigate-civilian-deaths
    https://www.counterpunch.org/2008/08/16/revisiting-the-quot-battle-of-tskhinvali-quot/print/

    If NATO can break up Yugoslavia, then Russia can break up Ukraine & Georgia that help each other & Chechens; most of the Georgians helping Ukraine r citizens of Georgia:
    "I have been fighting against Russian army since the early 1990s," ..
    In 1996, he founded a Georgian voluntary group to fight the Russians in Chechnya and, in 1998, he went to South Ossetia and Abkhazia voluntarily, he said. ..A claim echoed by a fellow combatant with a black mask who said the reason why he was in Ukraine was "to protect Georgia’s honor and territory." "We did not come here for money. Our aim is to get back Abkhazia and South Ossetia," he said. ..While the government does not openly support them, it does nothing to prevent them from going to Ukraine to fight.
    https://www.worldbulletin.net/caucasus/georgians-defy-russia-in-ukraine-h156758.html
    https://www.rferl.org/a/ukraine-georgians/29422560.html
    https://dfwatch.net/georgian-volunteers-in-ukraine-war-quit-military-unit-after-provocations-49727

    Hopefully Georgia as a nation will too realize it has to act differently, times have changed, and it too must try to extricate itself from sending its own citizens to be murdered by their own comrades fighting in a conflict which doesn’t help Georgia in the least.
    https://journal-neo.org/2018/01/25/is-kiev-headhunting-for-georgian-and-american-mercenaries-in-ukraine/
    https://dfwatch.net/georgian-volunteer-soldiers-arrest-in-kiev-stirs-controversy-in-georgia-47403

    Georgia and Ukraine are strategic partners and have an agreement to cooperate in defense. But that agreement does not have a point allowing foreigners to take part in anti-terrorist operations in the territory of Ukraine. So, the Ukrainian authorities have suggested giving Ukrainian passports to those wishing to fight for Ukraine.
    Among those people are Georgian citizens who once refused to fight for Georgia and to be Georgian citizens any longer. There are no other grounds for their involvement in the anti-terrorist campaign in Ukraine,” ..
    A few days ago the Georgian National Legion, a force that has fought for the Kiev regime for two years already officially joined Ukraine’s anti-terrorist operation as part of the 25th Kievan Rus motorized infantry battalion. This is the first official foreign unit within the Ukrainian army.
    It is not known how many Georgians exactly are fighting for Ukraine for the time being. Many of them are former Georgian military men and have been involved in international peacekeeping missions. According to former Georgian president and incumbent Governor of Odessa Oblast Mikheil Saakashvili, over the last two years the Legion has lost six of its one hundred men.
    Chairman of the Georgian Parliament’s Defense and Security Committee Irakli Sesiashvili has told BBC that the Georgian special services are aware how many Georgians are involved in the conflict in Ukraine but are keeping this secret for the sake of their safety.
    Sesiashvili confirmed that some Georgians are fighting for the Donetsk and Luhansk people’s republics. Most of those people are ethnic Georgians with Russian passports. https://eadaily.com/en/news/2016/03/17/georgian-outcasts-are-fighting-in-ukraine
    So, those Georgians r fighting each other in Donbass. Stalin, a Georgian, resurrected the Russian Empire under a different name, & never thought to give Georgia (much less Abkhazia) any independence. He & Beria, another Georgian, killed millions of Russians, Ukrainians, & others; they planned to exile 100s of thousands of Jews to the Far East- how many of them would have died on the way & there as a result, like the Tartars, Chechens, Germans, Koreans & others they exiled before? Both r justifiably blamed for genocide, as much as u can blame the old Russian Empire for its genocide in Georgia & today's Russia for truncating it, as a result of the new hybrid war waged against it by the West!
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    TheGeorgian

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    Re: Georgia NATO/US Relations

    Post  TheGeorgian on Wed Oct 03, 2018 3:30 am

    Tsavo Lion wrote:That is a convenient excuse many big countries invoke. W/o local grievances & grassroots support, secession can't proceed even with help from abroad.

    Except when they do.
    All it requires is a small and weak country that recently retained its independence and enjoys no foreign support whatsoever ( except some Ukrainian volunteers ) and a powerful paranoid nation like Russia to achieve success just splendidly for the aggressor.

    The conflict in Abkhazia would have remained a small local affair and a far cry of the tragic ordeal it sadly became, if Russia hadn't intervened and orchestrated a full fledged sessession. When their payroll puppet Ardzinba and his group started to attack the local administration in Sukhumi, Georgian police & militia needed less than a week to pacify the entire region and seal the border to Russia ( that was done by Shevardnadze in order to prevent combatant influx because he knew Russian political mentality inside out and feared the worst ). The majority population was Georgian and that separatist movement was no greater than a couple hundred men who were armed by the local Russian garrison ( Russian side claims their bases got looted. Sure  Wink ). It could have ended right there in their surrender and trial. But instead Ardzinba and his gang were sheltered by the Russian army at Gudauta where they were protected instead of being handed over to the Georgian authorities. Obv the Georgian side couldn't physicaly do anything about that. From there on, Gudauta essentialy became the separatists supply and operational base, as well as training center, where the rebels would be trained by Russian instructors.
    Georgia agreed to negotiate. Russia used those negotiations to secretly arm and train the separatist and boost them with mercenaries from Chechnya and other North Caucasian peoples. Kremlin demanded Georgia to pull out its troops from its own region and Georgia complied, as if they had any say in other country's affairs. But if we didn't comply our cities would have been bombed as a consequence.
    So Shevardnadze had no choice, he pulled out a good portion leaving only hundreds to secure the region. That act was followed by Russia condemning Georgia and virtualy the same time, a yet large force of several thousand Abkhaz, North Caucasians and Russians including Cossacks and what not, appeared out of nowhere ( similar to what happened to Ukraine in 2014 ) from the border and started attacking the vastly outnumbered Georgian troops. With them, they carried heavy military hardware that was physicaly impossible for them to even possess if they were not directly armed by Russia. Tanks, Grad launchers and other military vehicles.
    To top that all, Russia vehemently denied any assistance eventhough they carried out air missions to support the rebel offensives. One of their fighter aircraft, a Su-27 was later shot down by Georgian AA over Abkhazia. https://www.nytimes.com/1993/03/20/world/georgia-shoots-down-a-russian-plane.html / http://articles.latimes.com/1993-03-20/news/mn-13172_1_russian-air
    There are also better and colored versions of the images of its wreck somewhere on the net. But to return to the Abkhaz offensive. What actualy made it blatantly obvious that Russia not just directly supported, but planned and organised the entire operation, was the landing of unmarked troops via their big transport barges like Aligator and Ropucha class to distort and overrun Georgian lines at Ochamchire along the Abkhazian coastline. Essentialy with the intent of opening a second front in the rear. I say intent, because initialy it surprised the Georgians but eventualy failed and only distracted. Nevertheless. Russia consistently warned Georgia to not send further troops and the region fell. What followed after was documented the most brutal period of massacres and mass exodus of the 1990s. Almost the entire Georgian population was expelled. The thousands who remained were murdered in the most distasteful of barbaric fashions. The Russians did absolutly nothing to either intervene or at least limit the damage and atrocities committed by their puppets.

    Neither did they in 2008 before the GAF moved in, when Kokhoitis boys purposefully destroyed Georgian appartments in Tskhinvali forcing some 10k pp to become IDPs, and after the GAF moved out when going on a looting and killing spree against the remaining Georgian populace in "South Ossetia".

    Now, give me one good reason, why you people who argue that matter are being willingly no lesser hypocrites than those big countries with their overreaching agendas ?

    Georgia survived much worse in its history. We would have eventually shaken off the Persians like we did many times before.

    Maybe so, but w/o Russia stopping them, the Azeris & their brothers the Turks would do to u what they did to Greeks & Armenians in Asia Minor.
    There's 1 thing that only matters- it's called "the right of conquest".

    Like I said many times before. That medieval mentality has to be wiped off the Russians minds. Transfer it to the 21st century. Respect your neirhbours borders.

    If NATO can break up Yugoslavia, then Russia can break up ....

    That is the most invalid argument I've ever heard in my entire life.

    Just because one thug breaks and violates someone doesn't give the other thug the right to do the exact same thing to yet another victim.

    Hopefully Georgia as a nation will too realize it has to act differently, times have changed, and it too must try to extricate itself from [u]sending its own citizens to be murdered by their own comrades fighting in a conflict which doesn’t help Georgia in the least

    We don't send ppl to other conflicts. We send them to countries who ask for our assistance in peacebuilding process and protection. We didn't force outselves onto Africans and Afghanis. They request it, we are welcome and we help. We train their troops. We protect the Coalition bases. I see absolutly no issue in that, at all. We don't participate in wars.

    Don't act as if a bunch of people who got verbaly and publicaly crucified by their own government for taking part in the Donbass war, make the rule.

    Georgia and Ukraine are strategic partners and have an agreement to cooperate in defense. But that agreement does not have a point allowing foreigners to take part in anti-terrorist operations in the territory of Ukraine.

    Sorry, but who exactly are you to tell any of those people what they are allowed or not to do, when it is absolutly sanctioned by the Ukrainian government ? are you the Ukrainian government ? no. So what exactly are you on about ?
    If Ukraine asks for it and Georgia agrees, it can also send more instructors to support them. After all, Ukraine is fighting an internal conflict and not a war with Russia, ammarite ?  Wink

    A few days ago the Georgian National Legion, a force that has fought for the Kiev regime for two years already officially joined Ukraine’s anti-terrorist operation as part of the 25th Kievan Rus motorized infantry battalion. This is the first official foreign unit within the Ukrainian army.

    .... and ?

    Georgians are not the only foreigners and I still don't get what point you are trying to make. Volunteers do not represent the Georgian government, its military / security forces and people. Most of them are actualy Ukrainian citizens, except maybe a few instructors.

    Finaly, don't complain about such things, when Russia has thousands of mercenaries in Donbass, among them their famous Wagner Group that freshly arrived from Syria.

    Not to mention, troops that occasionaly accidently cross the border and also tens of thousands of troops directly at the border giving permanent supply of arms and ammunition and happy volunteers.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Georgia NATO/US Relations

    Post  GarryB on Wed Oct 03, 2018 10:41 am

    My point is that Russia tries to envoke claims on territories and peoples that don't belong to them and far predate Russia as a unified empire and / state.

    Not sure what you mean... it is not claiming SO and ABk or Georgia as its territory.

    It is just stepping in to stop Georgia bully SO and ABk.

    Well it's very evident that they don't, but they should because we and the others they deal with, do care. Its our culture, our history, our lands.

    You care about your culture and your history and your lands, but not much for the people you bombarded to seize those lands in 2008...

    They are the people you have to make friends with... not the Russians.

    To me its just a sad waste of good resource in another dirty Russian instigated proxy war.

    See now that is a problem... Russian instigated proxy war in the Ukraine...

    The US proudly announces it has spent 5 billion dollars to over throw the legitimate government of your buddies, the Ukrainians, and when they ban Russian language some areas in their East who largely speak Russian oppose the illegal government... has the US spent 5 billion dollars on Georgia?

    The US created the conflict in the Ukraine. The fact that you blame Russia for it makes your claims of history seem shaky... it seems everything is Russias fault...

    Don't fault other peoples and nations for opposing Russia to defend their own lifes and lands!

    Oppose Russia all you want.... but I am pretty sure the US can't give you the lands you crave back...

    You talk as if Russia was the only country on this planet. Wonder if you'd be equaly supporting if you found yourselves in our situation.

    In your situation and location... it is the only country that matters.

    Just like in Kosovo it was the US that mattered and Russia could do little to nothing.

    If anything, the right thing to do: is for Russia to apologize for all the conflicts it instigated, second the Abkhazians for what they've done especialy with all the massacres and mass exodus of the Georgian majority in the region. Actualy if they had any decency, they would first. But they won't anyway seing how thes celebrate their mass murderers as heros.

    Hahahaha.... WTF does right or wrong have to do with anything?

    Do you think it is right that Syrians are fighting and dying to defend themselves from ISIS while the last superpower on the planet does all it can to overthrow their government and create chaos there like they did in Libya a few years ago?

    They don't need to apologise because the current situation they can tolerate...

    For Georgia however, the situation is not so satisfying, but I am sure joining NATO and the EU and sending soldiers to fight wars for the US will be the right solution for Georgia.... I see the US media has published stories of Georgian units stealing from US units... now I have heard of cases where non US NATO forces have massacred civilians and the US hushed it up because they didn't want to embarrass their allies... so what do you make of them letting information about Georgian forces allegedly stealing getting out.

    I say allegedly because NZ forces are well known magpies... if you don't want it they will take it... not really stealing... and they are very nice about the countries that donate stuff...

    Georgia tries desperatly to acquire measures of self defence, with little to no results so far but some minor acquirements that have insigificant meaning. NATO will NEVER allow Georgia to be part of them. That is virtualy manifested.

    Even if they did what difference would it make... do you think if you started another conflict with Russia that the rest of NATO would back you up all the way to Moscow... or even just to the borders of the Russian Federation?

    You are fooling yourself.

    But yes, that's now how it works, since Russia is the more powerful nation. So yeah, utlimately Georgia will lead with example, once again, followed by Russia if they have any sense of decency, honor and anything humane left. Guess, that will never happen.

    Again... you talk about doing the right thing... how old are you... really...

    Countries... big and small don't do things because it is the right thing to do, and something that is wrong they will do even when they know it is wrong.

    What you propose is so laughable, not even Kremlin's PR machine believes in it.

    You seem to think the Russians are the enemy and that somehow you can scare them into running away... but you are their border... they are not going anywhere... and by hitching up your wagon to NATO and the US you are making damn sure they wont let you get friendly with SO and ABk because that would mean NATO and the US building bases even closer to their territory...

    Why is it that you supposedly "non-Russians" living abroad, are always more toxic than full blooded Russians, whom you can at least reason with and trust to have the very least basic educational and historical knowledge ?

    Tell me about New Zealand and Australian history... and don't get anything wrong or leave anything out.

    I am sure your response will be WTF do I need to know the history of those countries on the other side of the planet for...

    I would ask you why New Zealand history teachers would bother with the intricate history of the Caucasus.

    I don't have a passport and have never been outside of New Zealand.

    The only Russians I know I have spoken to on the internet.

    I have no Russian or Eastern European relatives.

    You don't prove yourself by such levels of ignorance and denial of reality.

    Deal with the reality that I am a white New Zealander with no blood ties to Russia, my parents are 3th generation New Zealanders and my great great grandparents are English, Welsh, Scottish and Irish.

    Russia literaly backstabbed an ally because it saw an opportunity. Stop justifying it. A proper ally would have supported and then left, not annex. You keep repeating the same nonsense over and over. When will it stop ? why does everyone have to fear losing an entire arm when offering Russia a fingernail ? Just .... stop.

    Sounds like you are describing the US... which still has military forces in Germany and Japan and South Korea... and many other countries on the planet... including Cuba... do they leave when asked?

    If NATO can break up Yugoslavia, then Russia can break up Ukraine & Georgia that help each other & Chechens; most of the Georgians helping Ukraine r citizens of Georgia:

    Russia didn't break up either the Ukraine or Georgia... the Ukraine and Georgia did that to themselves.

    Now, give me one good reason, why you people who argue that matter are being willingly no lesser hypocrites than those big countries with their overreaching agendas ?

    You have already said the people living in SO and ABk don't belong there.... if Russia hadn't interfered they probably would not be there now... given the choice of interfering or not interfering I think they made the right choice.

    Like I said many times before. That medieval mentality has to be wiped off the Russians minds. Transfer it to the 21st century. Respect your neirhbours borders.

    Oh please.... 08 08 2008 was in the 21st century and the medieval mentality of Saakashvili used Grads to try to wipe minds... there was no respect at all in either direction I might add.

    That is the most invalid argument I've ever heard in my entire life.

    Just because one thug breaks and violates someone doesn't give the other thug the right to do the exact same thing to yet another victim.

    Except that one thug you want desperately to join and the other is evil beyond compare... do you decide with the flip of a coin, or is it more random than that?


    Sorry, but who exactly are you to tell any of those people what they are allowed or not to do, when it is absolutly sanctioned by the Ukrainian government ? are you the Ukrainian government ? no. So what exactly are you on about ?

    There is no Ukrainian government... they were not elected... half of them aren't even Ukrainian... they seized power with the support of the US and the EU... and their only job is to hate Russia... they are good at that but there is not much money in that... not enough to make a good living anyway...

    If Ukraine asks for it and Georgia agrees, it can also send more instructors to support them. After all, Ukraine is fighting an internal conflict and not a war with Russia, ammarite ?

    Yup, Ukrainians killing Ukrainians... give them all the training they need by all means... your logic weakens both of your countries.

    Georgians are not the only foreigners and I still don't get what point you are trying to make. Volunteers do not represent the Georgian government, its military / security forces and people. Most of them are actualy Ukrainian citizens, except maybe a few instructors.

    But all the bad guys are Russian Army soldiers sent to the Ukraine to destabilise the country and make it an economic shitpile.

    The fact is that they don't need Russian forces for that... they are doing a really good job of that on their own.

    It is the ethically Russian people that the Orcs are shelling that are suffering because they don't recognise the illegal occupation force in Kiev... and why would they.... they didn't vote them in... they had no democratic say... and one of the first things the illegal regime did was make speaking Russian illegal and ban schools from teaching Russian.

    But the only thing keeping that conflict going is all the Russians that crossed the border and presumably are fighting the Ukrainian local patriots and Kievs forces....

    Yeah yeah...

    Finaly, don't complain about such things, when Russia has thousands of mercenaries in Donbass, among them their famous Wagner Group that freshly arrived from Syria.

    How could that possibly be true when thousands of the Wagner group were killed in US airstrikes...

    So Georgians are instructors and Russians are mercenaries.... hahaha... why not freedom fighters and terrorists... have you not properly read the US manual?

    Not to mention, troops that occasionaly accidently cross the border and also tens of thousands of troops directly at the border giving permanent supply of arms and ammunition and happy volunteers.

    Funny that the Ukrainians in the east of the Ukraine are supposed to be fully supplied by Putin himself yet they modify 23mm cannon shell rounds with blank cartridges and muzzle launch tubes for assault rifles instead of just using 40mm under barrel grenade launchers like the Russians have been doing for 30 years...

    You are continuing to discuss this so I will try one more time...

    The best solution for Georgia is to cut ties with NATO and the US... it is probably too late now of course so you could expect a coup and a new pro NATO/US government overnight if you tried, but your only chance to get what you want is to talk to SO and ABk and Russia.

    Remove NATO and the US from the equation and Russia will relax... as long as NATO and the US are in the picture you have Russias attention and it wont be in a friendly giving mood... it will be bat shit crazy What are they doing what are they doing mode... which really doesn't help anyone.

    With NATO and the US out of the picture, just be honest... say that the attack on 8 8 8 was a mistake and apologise that Saakashvili was stupid enough to try it, that you are neighbours and no one is able to move or go anywhere, so you might as well get along.

    They might appreciate honesty and a genuine wish to reconcile... or they might just say fuck off... you murdered our people we are not interested in being friends.

    To which you can reply that that was the idiot Saakashvili and he was under the influence of America, who does not care about people and just wanted to upset Russia and to build military bases around Russia, but we have gotten rid of them and want better relations with you and Russia...

    Again... it might not work but it wont totally backfire like sucking up to NATO and the US... but do what you like... I am sure America can solve all your problems... ask Iraq, or Libya, or Syria, or Afghanistan... better yet ask those countries who they want to talk to and it wont be the US or EU... it is more likely big old evil Russia.



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    Tsavo Lion

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    Re: Georgia NATO/US Relations

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Wed Oct 03, 2018 11:03 am

    Just because one thug breaks and violates someone doesn't give the other thug the right to do the exact same thing to yet another victim.
    I agree, but states, esp. superpowers, don't follow this principle; there's no morality in international relations. They do follow these: "war is politics by other means", "we don't have permanent alies nor perpetual enemies; our interest r permanent", & "an enemy of my enemy is my friend".
    That medieval mentality has to be wiped off the Russians minds. Transfer it to the 21st century. Respect your neighbors borders.
    Oppression, slavery, ethnic violence, wars & genocide r still ongoing, & that's a fact! Borders r temporary; the only permanent thing is change.
    Russia didn't break up either the Ukraine or Georgia... the Ukraine and Georgia did that to themselves.
    Russia only took from Ukraine what once belonged to her & helped to downsize Georgia to suit her geostrategic aims in the Black Sea region & the Caucasus.
    From the link u posted:
    The 90,000 Abkhazians, a minority in the province whose population exceeds 400,000, speak a different language from the Georgians and resist assimilation. http://articles.latimes.com/1993-03-20/news/mn-13172_1_russian-air
    If Georgians were so nice all those years inside their republic, there would be no reason to want seceding from Georgia.
    We don't send ppl to other conflicts.
    Georgia had them in illegal invasion of Iraq & Afghanistan.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Role_of_Georgia_in_the_Iraq_War
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Role_of_Georgia_in_the_War_in_Afghanistan_(2001%E2%80%9314)
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legality_of_the_Iraq_War
    http://arno.uvt.nl/show.cgi?fid=130470
    https://www.cnn.com/2013/03/18/opinion/iraq-war-hans-blix/index.html
    “Clearly, there’s a sense of disappointment in general that we’ve performed and contributed more than some NATO members,” Georgian Defense Minister Irakli Alasania said in a recent interview. “We don’t have any security guarantees, no security blankets. The only force we can count on is ourselves.”
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/georgias-mettle-as-us-coaltion-partner-has-honed-its-army-bolstered-nato-hopes/2014/08/13/431f192a-1bea-11e4-ab7b-696c295ddfd1_story.html?utm_term=.57c9997fe695
    How did Georgia benefited from its involvement there & being used by the US against Russia?
    Sorry, but who exactly are you to tell any of those people what they are allowed or not to do, when it is absolutly sanctioned by the Ukrainian government ? are you the Ukrainian government ? no. So what exactly are you on about ?
    Volunteers do not represent the Georgian government, its military / security forces and people. Most of them are actualy Ukrainian citizens, except maybe a few instructors. Finaly, don't complain about such things, when Russia has thousands of mercenaries in Donbass, among them their famous Wagner Group that freshly arrived from Syria.
    The current government in Ukraine was installed by the US after a coup; everything it does is illegal. Like Georgia in Abkhazia, they suppressed the local language in Donbass, rejected federalization, & oppressed those who don't agree with their nationalist agenda. Even if they r not representing Georgian gov., they r not stopped or prosecuted for going there, & their Ukrainian passports have as much weight as the 1 Mr. Saakashvili once had. So, from the RF perspective, Georgia is complicit in a war against ethnic Russian population now being waged in Ukraine. Yes, 2 wrongs doesn't make it right. But in this case, millions of people in Ukraine & Donbass have relatives in Russia & vice versa. Genetically,  they r 1 people. Don't expect Russia to stand idly by while Russians in near abroad r slaughtered for being Russians. That's why this hybrid war isn't 1 sided. They also want to avoid fratricidal war & can't afford a full scale invasion of Ukraine &/ Georgia; destabilizing these hostile Western leaning regimes until they r replaced by more friendly 1s will accomplish their aims.


    Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Wed Oct 03, 2018 6:24 pm; edited 2 times in total
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    GarryB

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    Re: Georgia NATO/US Relations

    Post  GarryB on Wed Oct 03, 2018 11:52 am

    That is the problem right there... the US and the west want to make out the problems in the Ukraine are Ukraine vs Russia, but nothing could be further from the truth...

    The legitimate elected government of the Ukraine that the US paid to overthrow was not pro Russia... not even nearly.

    His only mistake was not taking the inferior offer of the EU, over a much better offer from Russia and China... the EU was offering 7 billion in loans, while the Russians and Chinese were offering 15 billion in investments... obviously he is not an idiot and took the better offer... for which the Ukraine has paid in blood.

    But it is still Ukrainians killing Ukrainians... if Russia did get involved the separatists would be in Kiev by now.

    As far as Russia is concerned neither side is genuinely pro Russia by choice... an actual Russian invasion force would not likely be welcomed and many would use it to try to unify the Ukrainians against Russia... certainly the US and EU would love to see a conflict on a Russian border again... do you think they told Saakashvili not to attack SO.... you can bet your ass they told him the best time was during the opening ceremony of the Olympics and in return they will delay any meeting of the UNSC so you will have 4-5 days to take SO and make it a fait a comply and then all you need to worry about is ABk... great advice by the way... backfired the same way their little rebellion in the Ukraine was going to help them kick the Russians out of Sevastopol and they could put NATO ships in there instead and rule the Black Sea...

    They don't seem to be half as clever as they think they are...

    Even in the Middle East their stated goals are to limit the influence of Iran... so they remove Saddam from power and the Shia majority take power in legitimate democratic elections because they are the majority. They try to over throw pro Iran Assad and the result in both cases is that Iran extends its influence in ways it never could on its own... it now has a friendly Iraq and a Syria who both need their help in the fight against ISIS...

    Yup, those mericans are clever....

    Their achievements in the last decade is to turn Libya into shit, expand Irans influence into Iraq and Syria, hand Russia the entire peninsula of Crimea... something they would never have even had a chance for in 1,000 years in any other way...

    And the cost to Russia has been sanctions... now in the 1990s when Russia was weak those sanctions would have crushed them, but today they actually make Russia more self dependent... it has built up its own agriculture sector with its response of banning food imports from the EU... and it is pushing other countries together... China would not have been interested in helping Russia in the 1990s, and the EU wouldn't either but what is happening now is that the Russians and EU and China are working together to trade with Iran... they are working together for a solution to Syria because the EU doesn't want more refugees and pretty soon the same logic will likely bring the EU and Russians and possibly the Chinese together to do something about Libya... I doubt the EU would talk to the US about it... even though the EU was as much to blame if not more so than the US, but the US has not been effected by the economic migrants coming through Libya to Europe...
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    Hole

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    Re: Georgia NATO/US Relations

    Post  Hole on Wed Oct 03, 2018 4:30 pm

    To sum it up: all what the so called liberals in the west do in "Ukraine" and "Georgia" is defend Lenin and Stalin. Before Stalin Abkhazia and South-Ossetia were never part of "Georgia".
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    TheGeorgian

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    Re: Georgia NATO/US Relations

    Post  TheGeorgian on Wed Oct 03, 2018 10:40 pm

    It is just stepping in to stop Georgia bully SO and ABk.

    Russia is the bully not Georgia. It created borth conflicts and it also consistently performs old fashioned land grabs.

    You care about your culture and your history and your lands, but not much for the people you bombarded to seize those lands in 2008...

    Those our our lands and we responsed to attacks and provocations, not because we felt it was a nice day to kill. Saakashvilis response was a major disaster.

    If I was in charge, I would have simply vaporised the separatist units that attacked as a response and leave it at that. But I am not in charge.

    See now that is a problem... Russian instigated proxy war in the Ukraine...

    Yeah. It is. Glad you see that.

    Oppose Russia all you want.... but I am pretty sure the US can't give you the lands you crave back...

    The language of an aggressor. Classy.

    In your situation and location... it is the only country that matters.

    Thank you for verifying everything I said GarryB.

    Hahahaha.... WTF does right or wrong have to do with anything?

    Everything.

    Do you think it is right that Syrians are fighting and dying to defend themselves from ISIS while the last superpower on the planet does all it can to overthrow their government and create chaos there like they did in Libya a few years ago?

    Better question. How does that justify the bahaviour of the former superpower ?


    For Georgia however, the situation is not so satisfying, but I am sure joining NATO and the EU and sending soldiers to fight wars for the US will be the right solution for Georgia....

    I see the US media has published stories of Georgian units stealing from US units...

    Sure, throw in the old stereotypes. Class act. The US generaly look down at their allies. Georgians are no exception whatsoever and those are stories from the early 2000s. Things have improved since then. Shitty act in the Georgian army is not less treated with disciplinary action than in Europe. At least we are not looting marauding warbands like the Russians were in 2008.

    Even if they did what difference would it make... do you think if you started another conflict with Russia that the rest of NATO would back you up all the way to Moscow... or even just to the borders of the Russian Federation?

    It makes Russia think twice of attacking again because of NATO presence. That is currently enough.

    Again... you talk about doing the right thing... how old are you... really...

    I'm not the one babbling and repeating Russian PR nonsense, not even RT publishes anymore, yet tries to talk phylosophy of geostrategic justification.

    Keep rediculing yourself.

    You seem to think the Russians are the enemy and that somehow you can scare them into running away...

    Right .... how exactly do you figure ?

    .... because that would mean NATO and the US building bases even closer to their territory...

    Except it didn't in 2001. The reason why Shevardnadze ultimately green lit US presence is because Moscow kept pressuring us on the pretext of harboring Chechen fighters, so they'd have an excuse to cross the border with troops and consistently violate our airspace. No means fucking no. You can't simply bully everyone into submission because they don't allow you to operate on your soil.

    I would ask you why New Zealand history teachers would bother with the intricate history of the Caucasus.


    ....I am a white....

    Laughing

    Okay, 'white Zealander'

    Russia literaly backstabbed an ally because it saw an opportunity. Stop justifying it. A proper ally would have supported and then left, not annex. You keep repeating the same nonsense over and over. When will it stop ? why does everyone have to fear losing an entire arm when offering Russia a fingernail ? Just .... stop.

    Sounds like you are describing the US... which still has military forces in Germany and Japan and South Korea... and many other countries on the planet... including Cuba... do they leave when asked?

    If NATO can break up Yugoslavia, then Russia can break up Ukraine & Georgia that help each other & Chechens; most of the Georgians helping Ukraine r citizens of Georgia:

    Russia didn't break up either the Ukraine or Georgia... the Ukraine and Georgia did that to themselves.

    Sorry to break it to you, but reality disagrees.

    Russia instigated those conflicts, broke those countries up with fully supporting the sessessions politicaly, with arms, mercenaries and troops, and don't fool yourself, planned, organised and executed everything from toe to wig.

    Now, give me one good reason, why you people who argue that matter are being willingly no lesser hypocrites than those big countries with their overreaching agendas ?

    You have already said the people living in SO and ABk don't belong there....

    This right there is a prime example of how entities like GarryB twist words and meanings to propagate their poorly crafted individual PR agendas. I've seen that in a scary scale on media throug recent years. People like you can't be reasoned with.

    Stating a basic historical / geographic fact that the Ossetians (Alans) are not indeginous to Georgia ..... and suggesting that I implied they belong eradicated, are not one and the same thing, and frankly its highly offensive.

    Medieval mentality of Saakashvili used Grads to try to wipe minds...

    Both sides used MRLS, Russians even deployed Smerchs and ballistic missiles.

    How culturaly advanced was the shelling of Grozny ?  Wink

    there was no respect at all in either direction I might add.

    At least you admit to that fact. Indeed, where was the respect to the Georgian minority living in Tskhinvali when they got their appartments destroyed and turned IDPs before the GAF even began their operation ?

    Except that one thug you want desperately to join and the other is evil beyond compare... do you decide with the flip of a coin, or is it more random than that?

    I'm sure you mispoke there, but thanks for admitting it ^^

    Frankly I see them as equals.

    There is no Ukrainian government...

    they were not elected... half of them aren't even Ukrainian... they seized power with the support of the US and the EU... and their only job is to hate Russia..

    Oh please ....  Rolling Eyes  

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_parliamentary_election,_2014
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_presidential_election,_2014

    Yup, Ukrainians killing Ukrainians... give them all the training they need by all means... your logic weakens both of your countries.

    Yeah sure, those Russian mercs are all Ukrainians in disguise. It's all just a huge misunderstanding.

    Point remains. Its their country. I don't see anything immoral in providing training to an allied country fighting terrorists and foreign intruders. That's what allies are for. I don't think Russia wouldn't understan ..... oh wait ..... right, we've seen their definition of being allies  Wink

    But all the bad guys are Russian Army soldiers

    Yet again, putting words in my mouth. Never said they were. But a good massive AF chunk of them is.

    sent to the Ukraine to destabilise the country and make it an economic shitpile.

    wow, pretty much hit the head on the nail there. GG.

    The fact is that they don't need Russian forces for that... they are doing a really good job of that on their own.

    But it doesn't hurt to take away Crimea to secure the potential riches around it, and cause a good for NATO to never welcome Ukraine as no country with territorial conflicts are allowed to enter, swatting two flies in one go.

    because they don't recognise the illegal occupation force in Kiev...

    those fairy tales getting old.

    Finaly, don't complain about such things, when Russia has thousands of mercenaries in Donbass, among them their famous Wagner Group that freshly arrived from Syria.

    How could that possibly be true when thousands of the Wagner group were killed in US airstrikes...

    Said noone ever. Even the US didn't claim more than a 100 killed, and that number got dramaticaly reduced to a "possibly" a few dozen when Russian state media declared only 15 or so Russians actualy died. So please, at least stop lying so flat out.

    So Georgians are instructors and Russians are mercenaries.... hahaha... why not freedom fighters and terrorists... have you not properly read the US manual?

    Uhm yes. Because Georgian military advisors and instructors are not the ones fighting in Donbass. It are the ex-miliaties and police who volunteered either from Georgia or who already lived in Ukraine. Those people got their Georgian passports revoked and are all, obv except the instructors, Ukrainian citizens.

    Funny that the Ukrainians in the east of the Ukraine are supposed to be fully supplied by Putin himself yet they modify 23mm cannon shell rounds with blank cartridges and muzzle launch tubes for assault rifles instead of just using 40mm under barrel grenade launchers like the Russians have been doing for 30 years...

    Oh please. Russia doesn't just provide anything they require including self propelled artillery, MRLS, tanks, manpads and what not, among them, captured Georgian equipment, but by all intents and purposes either the Russian army has directly vaporized UA army positions by surgical artillery and guided missile and ballistic strikes during their massive counterattack in 2014, or the separatists happen to have magic unicorns that shat weapons and satellites out their asses.

    >Pick one.

    Remove NATO and the US from the equation and Russia will relax...

    You make it all sound easy, as if none of Georgia's decisions result from any intigated sessessions and 2nd party aggression or something ....

    With NATO and the US out of the picture

    Wouldn't of been in the first place if they didn't screw us up, being the paranoid warmongers the Kremlin ppl are ? my condolences to Ukraine.

    They might appreciate honesty and a genuine wish to reconcile... or they might just say fuck off... you murdered our people we are not interested in being friends.

    Ok look, the world doesn't work like that. Yes we can lead by example, but it is in no way perceivable a way road here. Neither historicaly, nor symbolicaly. Those territories are rightfully ours and especialy the Abkhazians should be very careful with blaming others of "murdering people". They went full genocide on the population in Abkhazia. There is a chance to reconcile but we are not the only ones who need to apologize. That is just wrong.

    To which you can reply that that was the idiot Saakashvili and he was under the influence of America, who does not care about people and just wanted to upset Russia and to build military bases around Russia, but we have gotten rid of them and want better relations with you and Russia...

    Sorry, done that, tried to normalise, even achieved communication and compromise between us and Ossetians, Russians create conflict border and build fences in response.  

    No sign of interest to be friendly with us from the Russian side whatsoever. Only further signals of complete no F's given.

    Yeah I'm sure we gonna absolutly benefit from that.
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    TheGeorgian

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    Re: Georgia NATO/US Relations

    Post  TheGeorgian on Thu Oct 04, 2018 12:15 am

    I agree, but states, esp. superpowers, don't follow this principle; there's no morality in international relations. They do follow these: "war is politics by other means", "we don't have permanent alies nor perpetual enemies; our interest r permanent", & "an enemy of my enemy is my friend".

    I know. Doesn't make any of it right though, now does it ?

    Oppression, slavery, ethnic violence, wars & genocide r still ongoing, & that's a fact! Borders r temporary; the only permanent thing is change.

    Why do some people here keep saying this, as if it would excuse anyone's attrocities ? how about leading as an example ? we are not asking Russia to reinvent the wheel or awe the entire globe with a miracle. Though I guess even what we ask is no short of a miracle .... Sigh.

    .... helped to downsize Georgia to suit her geostrategic aims in the Black Sea region & the Caucasus.


    What a nice thing to do.

    Actualy, hsitoricaly Russia holds no more claim over Crimea than all the other peoples that inhabitated the peninsula centuries before Russia did.

    If Georgians were so nice all those years inside their republic, there would be no reason to want seceding from Georgia.

    Oh please. Cut that bs, it's 2018 .... Literaly nothing about Ardzinba's Russian funded revolt was an Abkhazian uprising. It became one ( or so try to make you believe by arming a couple thousand and sending a couple thousand more mercenaries from Russia ) when Russia directly interfered seeing how their separatist movement bore no fruit as Georgia quickly dealt with it < - after, mind you, they committed armed assaults on the local regional government. I won't repeat myself, posted already thrice an entire segment on that bloody conflict.

    We don't send ppl to other conflicts.

    Georgia had them in illegal invasion of Iraq & Afghanistan.

    False. Georgia didn't participate in the Iraq invasion. It participated in the consequent peacekeeping missions.

    Neither did Georgia participate in the Afganistan invasion. It participated in the consequent peacekeeping missions.

    What are you gonna pull out next ? Georgai's peacekeeping participating in Kosovo and the small border conflict in Macedonia ?  Rolling Eyes  

    “Clearly, there’s a sense of disappointment in general that we’ve performed and contributed more than some NATO members,” Georgian Defense Minister Irakli Alasania said in a recent interview. “We don’t have any security guarantees, no security blankets. The only force we can count on is ourselves.”
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/georgias-mettle-as-us-coaltion-partner-has-honed-its-army-bolstered-nato-hopes/2014/08/13/431f192a-1bea-11e4-ab7b-696c295ddfd1_story.html?utm_term=.57c9997fe695

    A statement I fully agree with.

    How did Georgia benefited from its involvement there & being used by the US against Russia?

    besides experience, recognition, new partnerships, significant increase in political weight and military support, not that much. We would have had even less without though.

    Sorry, but who exactly are you to tell any of those people what they are allowed or not to do, when it is absolutly sanctioned by the Ukrainian government ? are you the Ukrainian government ? no. So what exactly are you on about ?
    Volunteers do not represent the Georgian government, its military / security forces and people. Most of them are actualy Ukrainian citizens, except maybe a few instructors. Finaly, don't complain about such things, when Russia has thousands of mercenaries in Donbass, among them their famous Wagner Group that freshly arrived from Syria.

    The current government in Ukraine was installed by the US after a coup

    Nup. It was rightfully elected and the fact it was a democratic election with "just" 54% voting for Poroshenko is something of a democratic miracle in Eastern Europe opposed to consistent 70-90% for Putin who evidently wants to assume the throne for seemingly until he dies of old age ....

    So please ....  Rolling Eyes

    ...oppressed those who don't agree with their nationalist agenda.

    That's rich. Look who's talking.

    Exterminates half a region when it wants to become independent. Shats on minorities especialy Caucasians.

    Even if they r not representing Georgian gov., they r not stopped or prosecuted for going there, & their Ukrainian passports have as much weight as the 1 Mr. Saakashvili once had.

    How exactly are you gonna prosecute people who are not in your country and won't be extradited ? besides that, you have absolutly no point whatsoever. Those people have Ukrainian citizenship. Disagreeing with that fact to re-arrange events as you like doesn't magicaly make it so.

    So, from the RF perspective, Georgia is complicit in a war against ethnic Russian population now being waged in Ukraine.

    That's the most far fetched, out of context and pulled out of the ass claim I've ever withnessed in my entire life. A little bit of basic law study and how to craft contextual arguments wouldn't hurt you.

    Yes, 2 wrongs doesn't make it right. But in this case.

    Gotta stop you right there. There is no "but".
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    TheGeorgian

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    Re: Georgia NATO/US Relations

    Post  TheGeorgian on Thu Oct 04, 2018 12:46 am

    Hole wrote:Before Stalin Abkhazia and South-Ossetia were never part of "Georgia".

    lol1  lol1  lol1  lol1

    Ah, classic Russian alternate history. Never gets old.

    If that's the case, than Russia did not exist before Stalin in the first place. I can play the "going full retard" game as well. ^^

    I tell you another historical fact you won't like. Sochi was part of Colchis and later the unified Georgia as a kingdom and later principalities for more than a millenia and half. The Abkhaz requested government aid and we retook Sochi during the Russian civil war, but later had to accept its total loss to the Whites, then Bolsheviks mostly due to British meddling as they literaly forced us under threat to accept peace conditions that were unfavourable to us, so the war would end. If Russia claims Crimea, than it should return Sochi to Georgia. Wink

    But sure, whatever fairly tail or denial floats your boat and makes you sleep at night. I would however be concerned about what impression you leave on the rest of the world with that act.

    Same with enjoying the benefits of living in Central/Western Europe and Canada but at the same time making fun of them  Wink


    Last edited by TheGeorgian on Thu Oct 04, 2018 12:55 am; edited 3 times in total
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    Tsavo Lion

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    Re: Georgia NATO/US Relations

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Thu Oct 04, 2018 12:50 am

    In 2000, Russia also wanted to join NATO, but was told NO. Why? Because in their mind, "Russia shouldn't exist". The USSR & its Warsaw Pact was a huge military camp; it lost the Cold War & today's proxy wars (& US sanctions) in the Caucasus & Ukraine r designed to weaken Russia so it could be split up into smaller peaces to be exploited, plundered for spoils & profits. Putin & his advisers saw through it & managed to stop it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_war_in_Donbass
    https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/20/opinion/ukraine-russia.html

    Most of the past invasions came from the West- don't blame them for being paranoid; they look at capabilities of potential adversaries & act accordingly.
    How Ukraine proved that there are no Russian troops in the Donbass
    Belarus, whose citizens been also fighting on both sides in Donbass, recently tightened controls on its "1,084km long and only 150km from Kyiv at one point" border with Ukraine:
    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/29/belarus-fight-both-sides-ukraine-russia-conflict
    http://belsat.eu/en/news/lukashenka-orders-to-bar-bandits-from-crossing-ukraine-belarus-border/
    https://www.ecfr.eu/article/commentary_belarus_and_ukraine_fort_trump_accidental_victims
    Ukraine has a problem in its West too: https://regnum.ru/news/polit/2494065.html
    They always blame others around them but not themselves.
    Hosting a foreign military base is tantamount to placing your country on the adversary’s list of primary targets. https://www.ecfr.eu/article/commentary_belarus_and_ukraine_fort_trump_accidental_victims
    That's exactly why Russia has warned against NATO expansion; wherever it goes, new & expanded bases spring up like mushrooms after a rain. Sweden & Finland so far avoided joining NATO- they learned from history & know better!
    ..I am sure joining NATO and the EU and sending soldiers to fight wars for the US will be the right solution for Georgia....
    NATO bombed the Serbs but also killed many of those fleeing the bombing &/ Serbs. Keep trusting them & they'll bomb u too. Russia, as in the past, is the Serbs protector: http://nvo.ng.ru/realty/2018-10-03/100_181003serbia.html?print=Y
    If Kosovo can secede, so can S. Ossetia & Donbass.


    Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Thu Oct 04, 2018 1:27 am; edited 1 time in total
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    TheGeorgian

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    Re: Georgia NATO/US Relations

    Post  TheGeorgian on Thu Oct 04, 2018 1:12 am

    Tsavo Lion wrote:In 2000, Russia also wanted to join NATO, but was told NO. Why? Because in their mind, "Russia shouldn't exist".

    You do realise that was just a running PR act and Russia would never join NATO right ....  Rolling Eyes btw the US president back then actualy agreed.

    Most of the past invasions came from the West- don't blame them for being paranoid; they look at capabilities of potential adversaries & act accordingly.

    Georgia could have been a vital ally to Russia. NATO / West was no concern whatsoever in 1991. The concern was a strong independent Georgia, followed suit by the rest of the South Caucasus. Russia repeatedly and officialy stated that a strong indepentend and unified Caucasus equals a decleration of war against Russia. They don't see themselves threatened by just NATO / West, but everything that can even so slightly undermine or endanger their overreaching influence on their neighbourhood, no matter if they join NATO / EU or not. It does absolutly not matter. Russia is an agenda and expansion driven near super powerful nation, that is only kept in check by another overreaching super powerful nation, that happens to be far more powerful on the political spectrum due to Russia's consistently misguided and impotent foreign policy, not just in regards to its neighbours but literaly everyone they try to negotiate with. Their governments and rulers only think in leverages and threats thus far, since the end of WW2. They simply can't and are not willing to offer as much or more than the US. So they go the thug route instead, and isolate themselves. Russia could have lifted imaginary US "isolation" a LONG TIME ago, without any form of use of force whatsoever, before it ever came down to the ever regressive situation since 2008. But it chose a different path, a stubborn, resenting path.

    Why not just say "Fuck the US", we will go the more reasonable path without sacrificing our own souvereignity and paralising other countries around us. Let's offer them neighbours better conditions and actualy be serious about the prospect of allying with us this time around. At least for the next 200 or the very least 50 stable years.


    Hosting a foreign military base is tantamount to placing your country on the adversary’s list of primary targets. https://www.ecfr.eu/article/commentary_belarus_and_ukraine_fort_trump_accidental_victims

    It's as demonstrated in the last 20 years nowhere near as hazerdous and revolting as having to suffer under the presence of Russian military bases since Georgia's independence. Cultivating, sheltering, arming and preparing subversive groups and insurgents to attack and split our country.

    Keep trusting them & they'll bomb u too.

    We are entering silly territory again.

    If Kosovo can secede, so can S. Osseia & Donbass.

    Sure, and Nazis have inhabitated the dark side of the moon. Rolling Eyes
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    Tsavo Lion

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    Re: Georgia NATO/US Relations

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Thu Oct 04, 2018 2:17 am

    ..that was just a running PR act and Russia would never join NATO right ....  btw the US president back then actualy agreed.
    No, being naive after the Communist ideology failed, they really wanted to join the West as part of European civilization. The Western Europeans consider them not worthy of their company & didn't want to make any accommodations with Russia. Also, since 988, they r too big & belong to a different branch of Christianity, not under the Pope or Protestantism. https://x-true.info/74404-borba-protiv-russkogo-mira-unichtozhit-ukrainu.html

    Medieval religious war is starting in Ukraine: "We will never agree to change the sacred canonical borders of our Church, for Kiev is the spiritual cradle of holy Russia, like Mtskheta for Georgia or Kosovo for Serbia," Patriarch Kirill of Moscow said in 2016. https://x-true.info/74326-rekomenduju-ukraincam-nachat-srochnuju-jevakuaciju.html
    Why Putin does not interfere with the West burial of Ukraine
    Russia repeatedly and officially stated that a strong independent and unified Caucasus equals a declaration of war against Russia.
    Pl. use spell check before posting, & provide references to the above quote.
    The so-called unified Caucasus is a pipe dream; so many religions & over 130 nationalities can't be unified, much less strong enough to be a threat to Russia. But aligning with Russia's historical adversaries, NATO member Turkey among them, may doom Georgia to be a target & permanent backwater.
    Russia is an agenda and expansion driven near super powerful nation,
    No, they sold Alaska to the US, lost control of the 14 Soviet republics, & still have enough land & resources. What isolation of Russia r u talking about? http://www.ng.ru/economics/2018-10-03/4_7324_opek.html
    Russia-India-China triangle is forming: https://vz.ru/politics/2018/10/3/944453.print.html
    India isn't going to turn her back at Russia even though she is a member of the British Commonwealth & has good relations with the USA. It & China r the 2 most populous nations: Iran, Pakistan, Egypt  & Turkey also buy Russian arms, etc. http://www.egypttoday.com/Article/1/58433/Sisi-to-visit-Russia-current-month
    http://www.kazakh-zerno.kz/novosti/mirovoj-rynok-selskogo-khozyajstva-i-prodovolstviya/248490-s-nachala-2018-19-selkhozgoda-rossiya-eksportirovala-v-egipet-2-215-mln-tonn-zerna

    Cooperation with Brazil & S. Korea r also ongoing: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazil%E2%80%93Russia_relations
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia%E2%80%93South_Korea_relations#Economic_cooperation

    They try to protect what they have in their geographical setting; the Caucasus is a natural wall between Black & Caspian Seas (where Volga & Don flow into) guarding the S. Russia.
    Outbreaks of plague and fever in Russia linked to the work of the Georgian laboratory
    ..another overreaching super powerful nation, that happens to be far more powerful on the political spectrum due to Russia's consistently misguided and impotent foreign policy, not just in regards to its neighbors but literally everyone they try to negotiate with. Their governments and rulers only think in leverages and threats thus far, since the end of WW2. So they go the thug route instead, and isolate themselves.
    U just perfectly described the USA & UK!
    Russia could have lifted imaginary US "isolation" a LONG TIME ago, without any form of use of force whatsoever, before it ever came down to the ever regressive situation since 2008. But it chose a different path, a stubborn, resenting path.
    It's more rational path than what u r suggesting, i.e. just meekly lying down under Uncle Sam & spreading her legs to be raped, figuratively speaking! The West sees itself morally & economically superior & demands unconditional surrender since they "know best what's good for every1". But Russia, among others, has another idea!
    Sure, and Nazis have inhabited the dark side of the moon.
    Speaking of which, how did those Georgians benefited from siding with them?
    Being faced with an impossible choice between Hitler and Stalin's regime, members of the Georgian Legion often suffered tragic fates. Notably, during the Georgian uprising on Texel, hundreds of Georgians were killed by the Nazis. Those who "survived" were on Moscow's orders forcibly repatriated to the Soviet Union, only to end up perishing in Stalin's Gulags.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgische_Legion_(1941%E2%80%9345)
    Georgians were fighting each other for & against Stalin-ruled USSR, as they do now in Donbass. If there's another war after that between the West & Russia, the same thing will happen again. The videos of Georgians in Donbass I posted show fighters, not instructors. Their Ukrainian citizenship, if any, is only skin deep & a legal gimmick to win their loyalty. But Kiev can revoke it at any time, just like what happened to Mr. Saakashvili.

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    Re: Georgia NATO/US Relations

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      Current date/time is Mon Oct 22, 2018 1:10 pm