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    Georgia NATO/US Relations

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    TheGeorgian

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    Re: Georgia NATO/US Relations

    Post  TheGeorgian on Fri Aug 28, 2015 3:30 pm

    Nothing really new or dramatic. It's to raise the combat capabilities of our troops education and training wise. We allready have a similar type of training center running since 2006. The Mountain Warfare school allready trains special troops of NATO member states and allies for years now.

    Working towards NATO membership is also not dramatic news. That was allready partialy established or at least considered during Shevardnadze rule in 2001.
    Consequently such developments shouldn't really be surprising to anyone. It's not like membership was in any reach for at least a decade or two if at all.

    Russia also doesn't give us the slightest chance nor desire, be it forced or not, to consider any form of alternatives.

    So tell me, what should we do. Simply dissapear from the map .... ?
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    Werewolf

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    Re: Georgia NATO/US Relations

    Post  Werewolf on Fri Aug 28, 2015 3:47 pm

    TheGeorgian wrote:Nothing really new or dramatic. It's to raise the combat capabilities of our troops education and training wise. We allready have a similar type of training center running since 2006. The Mountain Warfare school allready trains special troops of NATO member states and allies for years now.

    Working towards NATO membership is also not dramatic news. That was allready partialy established or at least considered during Shevardnadze rule in 2001.
    Consequently such developments shouldn't really be surprising to anyone. It's not like membership was in any reach for at least a decade or two if at all.

    Russia also doesn't give us the slightest chance nor desire, be it forced or not, to consider any form of alternatives.

    So tell me, what should we do. Simply dissapear from the map .... ?

    Join the NATO you become automatically a target of Russia, because joining a military vassal statehood of meatshield of US will of course make russia change its tone towards Georgia or any other vassal state with a wish to die for anglo-saxons. Nobody gives a flying fuck about Georgia, it is an unimportant country, but if you want attention so hardly, join NATO you will be overwhelmed with attention and then you can go full retard like Sweden or next Finnland and announce yourself being victim reacting to Russias aggression and "expansion" towards west...like the old cold war propaganda that is shouted since over 70 fucking years "The russians are coming", unfortunatley they never came and shut the fucked up every idiot in Europe with their wishes to die as cannon fodder for anglo-saxon supremacy believes.
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Georgia NATO/US Relations

    Post  PapaDragon on Fri Aug 28, 2015 4:44 pm

    TheGeorgian wrote:Nothing really new or dramatic. It's to raise the combat capabilities of our troops education and training wise. We allready have a similar type of training center running since 2006. The Mountain Warfare school allready trains special troops of NATO member states and allies for years now.

    Working towards NATO membership is also not dramatic news. That was allready partialy established or at least considered during Shevardnadze rule in 2001.
    Consequently such developments shouldn't really be surprising to anyone. It's not like membership was in any reach for at least a decade or two if at all.

    Russia also doesn't give us the slightest chance nor desire, be it forced or not, to consider any form of alternatives.

    So tell me, what should we do. Simply dissapear from the map .... ?

    I will not pretend to be an expert on this topic but I could not help but notice several interesting things:

    You guys may think that you have big problem but in fact, you are experiencing one of the most solvable conflicts in history. Here is why:

    1) There is no religious component to this conflict. This fact alone erases 99% of difficulties you would otherwise have when trying to negotiate permanent solution.
    I am being dead serious, Balkans for example, would be non issue if religious part could be taken out of equation.

    2) That ''war'' you guys fought? (all of you) That only lasted for 6 days and had casualtie number in low four digits.
    No disrespect, but over here, that would barely qualify as hunting accident. I am honestly surprised that is still a topic...

    What you guys need to do (Georgia, Abkhazia, Ossetia) is to burry the hatchet. You can do this simply by throwing the real culprit-Sakashwilie- under the bus where he belongs because he and his merry gang of NATO fluffers are thes one who brought this misery on all of you. And they made good money for themselves off of your blood.

    As for political solution, you should try with confederacy approach, for three of you to form a new country together. It won't be easy, but what is? It will certainly be easier than most conflict solutions out there...

    Also, Russia would gladly lubricate any reasonable solution if it means getting NATO morons away from her ballpark.

    Georgia got played by NATO. Is sucks but that does not mean you have to live in this status quo permanently. Keep in mind that NATO is an institution that even country like Poland is uncertain of whether if it would help them in serious conflict.
    If Poland has doubts then what could small, distant Georgia expect?

    Nobody expects you to disappear, they just expect you to start living up to your potential.

    That is my 2¢.
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    TheGeorgian

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    Re: Georgia NATO/US Relations

    Post  TheGeorgian on Fri Aug 28, 2015 7:39 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    TheGeorgian wrote:Nothing really new or dramatic. It's to raise the combat capabilities of our troops education and training wise. We allready have a similar type of training center running since 2006. The Mountain Warfare school allready trains special troops of NATO member states and allies for years now.

    Working towards NATO membership is also not dramatic news. That was allready partialy established or at least considered during Shevardnadze rule in 2001.
    Consequently such developments shouldn't really be surprising to anyone. It's not like membership was in any reach for at least a decade or two if at all.

    Russia also doesn't give us the slightest chance nor desire, be it forced or not, to consider any form of alternatives.

    So tell me, what should we do. Simply dissapear from the map .... ?

    I will not pretend to be an expert on this topic but I could not help but notice several interesting things:

    You guys may think that you have big problem but in fact, you are experiencing one of the most solvable conflicts in history. Here is why:

    1) There is no religious component to this conflict. This fact alone erases 99% of difficulties you would otherwise have when trying to negotiate permanent solution.
    I am being dead serious, Balkans for example, would be non issue if religious part could be taken out of equation.

    2) That ''war'' you guys fought? (all of you) That only lasted for 6 days and had casualtie number in low four digits.
    No disrespect, but over here, that would barely qualify as hunting accident. I am honestly surprised that is still a topic...

    What you guys need to do (Georgia, Abkhazia, Ossetia) is to burry the hatchet. You can do this simply by throwing the real culprit-Sakashwilie- under the bus where he belongs because he and his merry gang of NATO fluffers are thes one who brought this misery on all of you. And they made good money for themselves off of your blood.

    As for political solution, you should try with confederacy approach, for three of you to form a new country together. It won't be easy, but what is? It will certainly be easier than most conflict solutions out there...

    Nobody expects you to disappear, they just expect you to start living up to your potential.

    That is my 2¢.

    True delight to see some decent posts once in a while.

    You, are absolutly right.

    Burrying the hatchet with neither the Abkhazians nor the Ossetians does present any special or very difficult hurdle in that respect if the doors for talks and rehabilitation were open. That is a fact. It has been done before and it has been proven very succesful. Despite what happened and it would work even better despite recent events. But they are kept closed, forcefuly. Nowdays these two regions present nothing but huge isolated ( to us ) Russian military bases with fences stretched along the DMZ in an effort to undermine any sort of rapprochement and convergence. Nobody should have illusions. People are not stupid. No matter how much you try to influence their thinking. They know what is going on, when they are played and what political role or significance they have.

    Also, Russia would gladly lubricate any reasonable solution if it means getting NATO morons away from her ballpark.

    Maybe because it's today, a different time. Far from 1991 when the wounds were still fresh and one couldn't bear "loosing" so much ? - wishful thinking. Does Russia bear to have "lost" so much, now ? as a matter of fact they don't. The general mentality is still anchored in the past. NATO was not the reason in the 90s and I can assure you, things haven't changed nowdays. Can anyone here disagree on that ? please prove me wrong. I'd be glad to be proven wrong on this. Really.

    I mean sure, Saakashvili happened ..... but was it any different before ? was it any different afterwards ? No and no.

    What do you think would be a reasonable solution for Russia if NATO wasn't involved anymore ? do you think they'd give up their bases in Abkhazia and "South Ossetia", pull out their troops and allow all 3 parties to sit togheter at a table and find peaceful solutions to deal with all question ? - I don't know, seems like wishful thinking. People tried approaching and talking to eachother increasingly the last couple years, before the fences were constructed. So practicaly every time there is energy put into such efforts, there is a frightened and regressive reaction from Russia.

    Georgia got played by NATO. Is sucks but that does not mean you have to live in this status quo permanently. Keep in mind that NATO is an institution that even country like Poland is uncertain of whether if it would help them in serious conflict.
    If Poland has doubts then what could small, distant Georgia expect?

    When the Russian Federation is your physical enemy threatening your very existence and you're not very keen to be subjugated in the same manner you were for decades and centuries allready, no matter if as whole or merely politicaly and economicaly, you seek to approach the opposing force. It's a natural reaction because you fear for your life and want to survive, in one piece. I don't get why there isn't even some basic logical understanding to such consequences. Everything is like clouded, no room given for reasoning. We tried to approach Russia a million times with peaceful solutions. We literaly tried everything. What does Russia do ? pushes the fence a few kilometers further into uncotensted territory proper. Please people, that is not a solution. If the central highway is reached, it will mean war. Because no matter how weak we are, nobody will just sit idly and watch it's country being literaly split ahalf. We had our big mistake, called Saakashvili .... and no matter what the Russians did to provoke it or not, he started the August War. But this time around, there are not two parties actively provoking eachother. There is only ONE.

    Georgia does not present a threat to Russia, not in the next 5 years, not in the next 20 years. There won't ever be NATO bases in Georgia because NATO itself isn't that stupid. Georgia literaly has no prospect of joining NATO and will forever simply remain an allied nation if anything, even if we get the MAP in 2016, which is unlikely to happen anyway.
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    TheGeorgian

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    Re: Georgia NATO/US Relations

    Post  TheGeorgian on Tue May 10, 2016 1:00 pm

    Noble Partner 2016 kicking off tomorrow.

    Nice little contrast here.







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    George1

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    Re: Georgia NATO/US Relations

    Post  George1 on Fri Dec 02, 2016 7:30 am

    US Army to Upgrade Georgia Light Infantry Unit Into Heavy Armored Brigade

    Read more: https://sputniknews.com/military/201612021048076660-fort-stewart-brigade-armored-infantry/


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    TheGeorgian

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    Re: Georgia NATO/US Relations

    Post  TheGeorgian on Tue Jan 24, 2017 6:30 pm

    George1 wrote:US Army to Upgrade Georgia Light Infantry Unit Into Heavy Armored Brigade

    Read more: https://sputniknews.com/military/201612021048076660-fort-stewart-brigade-armored-infantry/

    a "Georgia-based" as in the state of Georgia my friend.... Smile
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    George1

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    Re: Georgia NATO/US Relations

    Post  George1 on Wed Nov 22, 2017 11:24 pm

    Javelin anti-tank missile systems are approved for delivery to Georgia

    The Defense Security Cooperation Agency (DSCA) on November 20, 2017 reported that on November 17 it sent a notice to the US Congress about the forthcoming sale of portable anti-tank missile systems Javelin from the availability of inter-governmental military sales of Foreign Military Sales (FMS) the US Army. The sale is authorized by the US Department of State. The estimated cost of delivery is $ 75 million.

    The delivery will include 72 portable MLU Block 1 launchers (including two for use as a source of spare parts) and 410 Javelin anti-tank guided missiles, as well as ten BST simulators and 70 training shots.

    The general contractor for the supply will be Javelin's joint venture between Raytheon and Lockheed Martin, which will pre-manufacture the launchers and missiles from the presence of the army and the US Department of Defense. It is reported that the delivery will require sending one government contractor and two contractor representatives to Georgia.

    Τhe bmpd comment. This is the first alleged delivery of Javelin ATGM to the former Soviet Union republic that is not a member of NATO, and the first significant sale of US weapons to Georgia since the Five-Day War in August 2008. Apparently, the delivery will be made at the expense of American financing.

    Georgian Defense Minister Levan Izoria, after a meeting with US Defense Secretary James Mattis on November 13, 2017, said that in 2017-2018, US military assistance to Georgia will exceed $ 100 million. According to Izoriya, in the spring of 2018, a US-funded training program should begin The Georgian Defense Readiness Program (GDRP). The central part of this program is the creation by the American side at the Vaziani training ground of the new Joint Training Center of the Georgian Armed Forces worth about $ 70 million.

    https://bmpd.livejournal.com/2968136.html


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    GarryB

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    Re: Georgia NATO/US Relations

    Post  GarryB on Wed Nov 29, 2017 11:19 am

    Good.... this will stimulate the use of APS systems in Russia... and will cripple the AT capability of the Georgian forces...


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    TheGeorgian

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    Re: Georgia NATO/US Relations

    Post  TheGeorgian on Thu Nov 30, 2017 4:16 pm

    Good !

    Everything that boosts Georgia's defence capabilities against any type of intruder and temporarily disrupts continuous aggression is a very welcomed step.

    Russia should maybe work towards a less hostile environment for its neighbours instead of constantly antagonizing everyone who isn't willing to be on Kremlin's leash and it won't have to worry about counter measures Wink

    Besides, basic demands for basic defense capabilities in the 21st century that are long overdue since mid 2000s

    The US hasn't even fullfilled half its promises as far as I'm concerned, which makes them just as unreliable as Russia in regards of weapons delivery to Georgia.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Georgia NATO/US Relations

    Post  GarryB on Fri Dec 01, 2017 3:08 am

    Russia should maybe work towards a less hostile environment for its neighbours instead of constantly antagonizing everyone who isn't willing to be on Kremlin's leash and it won't have to worry about counter measures

    What?

    You are working with NATO, a military organisation dedicated to war with Russia... and you think Russia should be nicer to you?

    If you want Russia to be nicer to you how about a sincere apology about murdering their peacekeepers in cold blood in South Ossetia in 2008?

    Or how about not bothering, because it would be offensive to the VDV peacekeeping force to even consider normal relations with Georgia.

    Preferably they will have no relations with Georgia and arm South Ossetia and Abkhazia to the teeth, so they can live in peace with the knowledge they are safe from Georgian aggression.


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    TheGeorgian

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    Re: Georgia NATO/US Relations

    Post  TheGeorgian on Fri Dec 01, 2017 7:25 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    What?

    You are working with NATO, a military organisation dedicated to war with Russia... and you think Russia should be nicer to you?

    If you want Russia to be nicer to you how about a sincere apology about murdering their peacekeepers in cold blood in South Ossetia in 2008?

    Or how about not bothering, because it would be offensive to the VDV peacekeeping force to even consider normal relations with Georgia.

    Preferably they will have no relations with Georgia and arm South Ossetia and Abkhazia to the teeth, so they can live in peace with the knowledge they are safe from Georgian aggression.

    What "what ?" this is a joke right .... ?

    NATO isn't an organisation dedicated to war with Russia for several decades now. You are massively overbloating the issue. Right now all it is a weakly organised mild mannered anti terrorist coalition with some concerns and involvement with Russia. Where is NATO openly at war with Russia or trying to wage one ? the absolte contraray is taking place. Each time Russia openly attacked someone Nato did virtualy everything to avoid open war.

    It's a defence cooperation that has been absolutly not what it was originaly created for for ages ago. Only now they slowly realize they've been doing little to nothing to justify its existence.

    What stops Russia from forming its own military alliances ?

    If you want Russia to be nicer to you how about a sincere apology about murdering their peacekeepers in cold blood in South Ossetia in 2008?

    Are we realy doing this ? how about a VERY sincere apology for what mass atrocities and massacres your involvment, support of sessession and actions have caused in 1992-93 - especialy 1993 ? ( and for that matter in 2008 - every single "Georgian" village in Samachablo was burned to the ground just so that noone of the 15-20.000 people who fled could return and so that Russia could build its bases and polygons - and general policy to this date ? things that are virtualy unforgivable. But that's nothing new with Russia. Been backstabbing and annexing us for 2 centuries now. Tell me again how many times you've invaded or annexed us without any provocation whatsoever vs invasions / annexation with political pretext ? exactly, it doesn't matter in the slightest .... that insolence has reached beyond cosmic hilarosity levels at this point.

    I am not defending the Georgian military operation in Samachablo, that was a poor decision, but you people sure sleep happy at night without questioning any of the fairy tales told by one of the most infamous propaganda machines on the planet.

    Keep living with your fantasies, I prefer more logical reasons.

    Maybe someone should have told them to not shoot at the Georgian troops The Georgians literaly warned them beforehand of a possible operation and to keep out of the fighting. They did so again before departing their barracks. Instead one of the Ossetian or Russian officers of the joint MC force went to the roof to coordinate strikes against the Georgian army and in either case it came from the Russian garrison. Naturaly the Georgians returned fire and blasted him to hell. The "peacekeepers" didn't improve their situation by continuous participation in supporting Russo-separatist operations against the Georgian army non-stop during the entire war. Georgian troops to react is expected and of course they would try to seize the barracks as a consequence of now openly declared warfare.

    Besides they were involved in a lot of controversies, acts of sabotage and skirmishes years before the war. So absolutly no respect for VDV in any involvment in Georgia whatsoever. They shouldn't even be in Georgia, and Russia still to this very date does not respect anything in the Six-Point-Peace-Plan it has signed along with Georgia and the EU - just a small reminder. Instead of withdrawing its troops as agreed in the signed plan - to their original dislocation, they were reinforced, over 18 bases were constructed, up to 8000 troops enplaced, uncontested territories are being continuesly occupied since 2008, most recently in 2016.

    Russia does virtualy everything to further destabilize the situation and grow more hostile towards Georgia. All facts that are being observed and documented by the international community. Nothing has changed. Yet you act all pretentious and surprised. Cut if off plse .... it's embarassing. Think about that for a second. All that and you complain about Georgia purchising some Javelins ( deal isn't even certain at this point ) ? the Americans have a saying for that astronomical level of hypocricy, but I will keep it civil .... it's so bad it isn't even funny anymore.

    Or how about not bothering, because it would be offensive to the VDV peacekeeping force to even consider normal relations with Georgia.

    The only thing offensive about all this, are such illusions of superiority and grandeur over everyone and anything else and outrageous self-victimization .... and your attitude towards certain people and poor taste of humor.

    You should be rather glad we Gerogians and Ukrainians gave you things that make it possible for you to D measure with the USA in the first place, rather than be so full of yourself, full of spite and display such laughable superiority complex. I understand many but I simply have no respect for that kind of weak.

    Preferably they will have no relations with Georgia and arm South Ossetia and Abkhazia to the teeth, so they can live in peace with the knowledge they are safe from Georgian aggression.

    Good thing, none of that is up to your Georgia-phobic visions and delusions eh comrade ?  Wink

    Sorry comments like these just upset me sometimes.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Georgia NATO/US Relations

    Post  GarryB on Sat Dec 02, 2017 7:34 am


    NATO isn't an organisation dedicated to war with Russia for several decades now.

    So they keep saying, but their actions are clearly directed against potential Russian Aggression... something likely under Stalin, but with the current track record unlikely under Putin or Yeltsen.

    Their plans and actions don't reflect the reality however, which makes them an enemy of Russia no matter what their words say.

    You are massively overbloating the issue.

    It is an anti Russia boys club.... when your country reaches the tipping point of blaming Russia for everything then you join.

    Right now all it is a weakly organised mild mannered anti terrorist coalition with some concerns and involvement with Russia.

    Mild mannered does not invade countries and impose the will of its primary members.... that is the aggressive nature you accuse Russia of while moving troops and bases ever closer to their border after initially promising not to.

    Where is NATO openly at war with Russia or trying to wage one ? the absolte contraray is taking place. Each time Russia openly attacked someone Nato did virtualy everything to avoid open war.

    NATO countries currently supply weapons and money and training support to the Ukraine, which of course is none of Russias business, however its members also have imposed sanctions against Russia because of imaginary support for a group of ukrainians that have opposed an illegal coup in the Ukraine.

    Further the people of the Crimea have voted to join Russia, for which Russia is also being sanctioned by the west... so the west is punnishing the people of the Crimea and the people of Russia because of their democratic vote to succeed from the Ukraine... a country they have no connection with except a decree by a Ukrainian leader of the Soviet Union 60-70 odd years ago.

    Yeah, NATO is not interfering with Russias national interests or her economy, NATO just wants to be buddies.... that is why they have moved weapons and soldiers to Russias borders..

    It's a defence cooperation that has been absolutly not what it was originaly created for for ages ago.

    It was built to counter Russia, because Russia was the threat. It was wrapped up on a cloak of Soviet republics and Warsaw Pact conquests, but the enemy was Russia, which is why many westerners today think Russia and the Soviet Union are the same thing...

    Only now they slowly realize they've been doing little to nothing to justify its existence.

    Keeping the west safe from nothing for as long as 27 years...

    What stops Russia from forming its own military alliances ?

    Russia not wanting to invade europe? Or anyone really.

    And before you claim Crimea, Georgia (2008) and Syria, they already had troops in the crimea and did not exceed the number they were allowed by agreement before the crimea voted to become Russian, Georgia attacked VDV peacekeeping forces and South Ossetian civiians, and of course was invited by the leadership of Syria to assist with a serious case of terrorist infection... greatly caused by the west I might add.

    Are we realy doing this ? how about a VERY sincere apology for what mass atrocities and massacres your involvment, support of sessession and actions have caused in 1992-93 - especialy 1993 ?

    Sound to me like the Russians went in and stabilised a bloodbath... if you cared so little about the VDV soldiers you murdered in 2008 and the South Ossetians who were also killed in your artillery bombardment invasion, then clearly that sets the bar pretty low for your feelings for these people... including the Georgians living there as they were shelled too.

    Sounds like the Kiev regime shelling those that do not accept their rule after the coup.

    The Russian actions created peace... if they had not acted it would have been another genocide...

    and for that matter in 2008 - every single "Georgian" village in Samachablo was burned to the ground just so that noone of the 15-20.000 people who fled could return and so that Russia could build its bases and polygons - and general policy to this date ? things that are virtualy unforgivable.

    Unforgivable?

    You are fucking hilarious.... well done, you are now a fully trained westerner.... murdering people with artillery is OK but burning down peoples houses is a step too far?

    So glad you do not have access to chem and bio weapons... you could have gotten the job done properly... killed all those troublesome South Ossetians and Abkhazians but left their buildings standing ready for Georgian families to move it right away... once they clear away the bodies of course.

    But that's nothing new with Russia. Been backstabbing and annexing us for 2 centuries now. Tell me again how many times you've invaded or annexed us without any provocation whatsoever vs invasions / annexation with political pretext ? exactly, it doesn't matter in the slightest .... that insolence has reached beyond cosmic hilarosity levels at this point.

    First of all I am not Russia, but their worst work was done under the control of Joseph Stalin for which the world thanks you.

    I am not defending the Georgian military operation in Samachablo, that was a poor decision, but you people sure sleep happy at night without questioning any of the fairy tales told by one of the most infamous propaganda machines on the planet.

    Saakashvili can't take all the blame... the timing of the attack was carefully planned and I don't thing he came up with that idea. The west is normally very quick to react to this sort of thing when their own interests are under threat but they were very tardy in this case, which suggests if it wasn't planned in the west it was certainly OKed before hand.

    Right now that propaganda centre is the only centre putting out an alternative view on any topic... they don't seem to have a fixed agenda like blind support for Israel or the US or UK unlike western media services.

    No matter how long serving you are in the western media you can get fired in the US simply for stating that Israel does not treat the Palestinians very well... what sort of environment are they operating under?


    Maybe someone should have told them to not shoot at the Georgian troops The Georgians literaly warned them beforehand of a possible operation and to keep out of the fighting. They did so again before departing their barracks. Instead one of the Ossetian or Russian officers of the joint MC force went to the roof to coordinate strikes against the Georgian army and in either case it came from the Russian garrison. Naturaly the Georgians returned fire and blasted him to hell. The "peacekeepers" didn't improve their situation by continuous participation in supporting Russo-separatist operations against the Georgian army non-stop during the entire war. Georgian troops to react is expected and of course they would try to seize the barracks as a consequence of now openly declared warfare.

    Hahahahaha.... All that recon your side did, identifying locations for targets, they could not avoid the area the VDV were based?

    The Georgian observers in that base presumably left before the fighting started?

    If your job was to protect a woman in an abusive relationship and the man says he is drunk and he is going to kill her should you step aside to keep yourself safe?

    Or do you punch him in the nose and call for backup.


    Besides they were involved in a lot of controversies, acts of sabotage and skirmishes years before the war. So absolutly no respect for VDV in any involvment in Georgia whatsoever. They shouldn't even be in Georgia, and Russia still to this very date does not respect anything in the Six-Point-Peace-Plan it has signed along with Georgia and the EU - just a small reminder.

    Well it is funny, but after all the tit for tat skirmishes over the years since the Russians moved in and pushed Georgian forces out completely and removed Georgian observers and saakahsvili has gone there has been a much more successful period of peace... perhaps regime change should have been the goal in the 1990s to sort it all out once and for all.

    Instead of withdrawing its troops as agreed in the signed plan - to their original dislocation, they were reinforced, over 18 bases were constructed, up to 8000 troops enplaced, uncontested territories are being continuesly occupied since 2008, most recently in 2016.

    The west assisted your illegal invasion and now you want to join NATO... what can you expect them to do?

    Your military attacked South Ossetia because you thought it was weak enough to take before any counter force could arrive and stop you... the irony is that Abkhazia took the opportunity to take land from Georgia when it was being pushed back too, but that is what happens in such situations.

    The obvious solution is to build up Russian forces in the region so that further attempts are fully deterred.

    That is how the peace can be kept without incidents or bloodshed because a large force is not something the Georgians want to play with.

    All that and you complain about Georgia purchising some Javelins ( deal isn't even certain at this point ) ? t

    Reread what I said... I think Georgia getting Javelins is a good thing... it will force Russia to actually put APS systems into service rather than just talk.

    You should be rather glad we Gerogians and Ukrainians gave you things that make it possible for you to D measure with the USA in the first place, rather than be so full of yourself, full of spite and display such laughable superiority complex. I understand many but I simply have no respect for that kind of weak.

    I am sure Georgia and the Ukraine and the other Soviet republics contributed greatly to Soviet weapons development.... but they also had negative effects too... Stalin, Krushchev, not to mention active georgian support for terrorists in the chechen conflicts, but then Georgia has been pro west and anti Russia for a very long time.. clearly Russia did not want to put up with you guys murdering people for their land, while the west has done far worse and therefore couldn't care less... another ally in their war against Russia.

    Sorry comments like these just upset me sometimes.

    It is an upsetting topic.


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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Georgia NATO/US Relations

    Post  PapaDragon on Sat Dec 02, 2017 1:32 pm

    TheGeorgian wrote:
    ..........

    I said it before, Georgia needs to start solving this thing on it's own without expecting USA to do it for them. USA's and Georgia's interests do not converge on this despite the rhetorics.

    Georgia should go solo and initiate negotiations​ with those republics, in secret if needed. They can definitely reach a good solution if they try and should they even get close to one Russia will gladly put seal of approval on it, influence the republics to adhere and reconcile and after it's done flood all sides with cash, support and assistance to cement the deal.

    This is most solvable conflict on the planet.
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    TheGeorgian

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    Re: Georgia NATO/US Relations

    Post  TheGeorgian on Sat Dec 02, 2017 10:19 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    So they keep saying, but their actions are clearly directed against potential Russian Aggression... something likely under Stalin, but with the current track record unlikely under Putin or Yeltsen.

    It is a military alliance. It does what military alliances do. Boost their defence capabilities against any potential aggressors but not even that is done properly.

    Their plans and actions don't reflect the reality however, which makes them an enemy of Russia no matter what their words say.

    All action is reactionary and every nation should have the right to at least limit a nuclear threat from whoever possesses such weapons. Especialy understandable from the POV of Poland as it's right in their garden.

    If NATO's intentions were to really antagonise Russia it would equip every single member with ballsitic missiles interception capacities to prepare for eventual war. None of that is happening. All are accusations and claims that hold little to no ground. Russia on the other hand is openly hostile and attacks countries in Europe.

    It is an anti Russia boys club.... when your country reaches the tipping point of blaming Russia for everything then you join.

    The reason why nations have joined NATO is because they were either directly threatened and previously occupied by Russia and would have probably been attacked again if NATO didn't exist at that time and obviously in the case of Georgia because it was attacked by Russia multiple times now and is being occupied as we speak.

    .... that is the aggressive nature you accuse Russia of while moving troops and bases ever closer to their border after initially promising not to.

    Ehm yes .... because you know .... that's a fact.

    If you can't even see the elemential difference between an international intervention against countries ruled by despots and terrorists who invaded or attacked other countries and committed genocides or supported those activities, wheter one of it ( Iraq ) turned out to be under false pretext of supposed bio-nuclear threat .... and Russia just bluntly occupying and annexing, physicaly taking over and absorbing territories internationaly recognized parts of other countries, than I'm wasting my time here. Go figure this guy: Russia went full medieval against Georgia twice now and currently Ukraine is in the process of a similar misery.

    NATO countries currently supply weapons and money and training support to the Ukraine

    Yes thank god they are at least doing that. Would have been better if it was done much earlier so they were better prepared for subsequent Kremlin prepped and supported couinter offensives of the separatists.

    have imposed sanctions against Russia because of imaginary support for a group of ukrainians that have opposed an illegal coup in the Ukraine.

    The US and EU imposed sanctions against Russia for the hostile takeover and absorption of Crimea first and foremost and then, because of directly and indirectly supporting separatists in Ukraine with weapons and troops. Let's keep the order right please ....

    Yeah, NATO is not interfering with Russias national interests or her economy, NATO just wants to be buddies.

    Yes because Russia has never interfered with Europe's economy before the Ukraine and Georgia conflicts ...

    It is very simple. You and they are not in the right to blame the West or anyone for that matter for all of Russia's problems. Everything can only be blamed on it's poor political decisions, politicaly ill and twisted mentality and morals and complete lack of diplomacy and reverence.

    The US is not the reason why almost all their neighbours fear or hate them. Of course it's all on Russia. Every inteference has caused greater harm and misery and that's historical facts, not mere opinons.

    If the opposite was the case, Russia would not be in the position it is right now. Reality doesn't lie.

    Besides where did NATO move weapons and troops to Russias borders .... ? all of that is more silly media rhetoric that has nothing to do even remotely with reality.

    Every time the US conducts a manouver with other alliance members or allies it's a "provocation at Russia's borders". Give me a damn break. When you claim such nonsense it at least must have some kind of even meaphorical validity. What are the Ukrainians to say ? You have almost the entire army deployed physicaly AT their border in order to eliminate logistical complications for the steady flow of weapons and troops that happen to "get lost" over the border.

    It was built to counter Russia, because Russia was the threat. It was wrapped up on a cloak of Soviet republics and Warsaw Pact conquests, but the enemy was Russia, which is why many westerners today think Russia and the Soviet Union are the same thing...

    and that's exactly what they are not nowadays. Only now they got reminded of its original purpose and only now they start constructing somewhat that resembles a coordinated NATO force.

    Keeping the west safe from nothing for as long as 27 years...

    More like keeping Russia in check with basicaly a non-existent military alliance yes.

    Russia not wanting to invade europe? Or anyone really.

    Or rather insert earlier line.

    Nobody realy wants to because most of its neighbours feel threatened by Russia.

    Wonder why ....

    Georgia attacked VDV peacekeeping forces

    or they responded to the attacks of supposed "peacekeeping" forces that were accused of tons of illegal interference since the 90s ....

    and South Ossetian civiians

    you mean by also using artillery and missiles to shell Tskhinvali and cause even more damage ? seems legit. The sad thing ( from their POV at least ) is, Georgian troops suffered not nearly as much damage as the collateral destruction caused by that because guess what: the Russian artillery used was no more accurate than the Georgian.

    Sound to me like the Russians went in and stabilised a bloodbath...


    I don't know what the Russians supposedly "stabilised" in your fantasy world, but their invovlement endorsed a near genocide.

    Nobody has illusions or denies anything on that topic. Lot of crimes were committed by both sides, and in the case of Georgia ( which is basicaly the only side acknowledging any of that ), the main reason to why was because the government made a difficult and critical decision, namely to release thousands of prisoners to fight in the ranks of an army that was still forming. The situation in Abkhazia became very urgent when an insurgent group lead by Russian financed and supported Arzingba assaulted and took control over Sukhumi. Government forces and their paramilitary allies moved in to quell them, what they did in just a few days and secured most of the rest of Abkhazia because Shevardnadze had already suspected Russian involvment and feared the worst. Georgian forces prime directive was then to reach Gagra and close down the tunnel. The fact Russian GRU operators were already in place for the conflict as the Russians themselves admitted later speaks volumes of why his suspiciouns were completly justified. That entire affair, what was basicaly just an anti-insurgency operation at that point, would have ended if the Russian garrison in Gudauta wasn't ordered by Kremlin to protect their Arzingba and his remaining 200 or so sparsely armed gang from being caught and prosecuted for their crimes of simply causing heavy unrest and armed violence. But Russias interests was always maintaining foothold by causing destabilisation and the anti-Georgian mentality in the ranks of Kremlin in that time period, particularily 1990s-1994 were almost phsychotic.

    Now let's fact check how much Russia "stabilied" in that conflict.

    Fact 1: Obviously not happy about how bad their Arzingba plan was going, the Kremlin decided to completly open border for mercenaries and Chechen militants to happily swarm the region, and also supply the insurgents with massive amounts of weapon and ammunition, including artillery of high caliber and even tanks. Not only from Gudata but many other Russian bases and sources throughout the country and Russia. To support the operation, airborne troops from the Balkans were dispatched, hundreds of instructors sent over the border as well as naval infantry without unit markings and isnignias disembarked from Transinistria to actively participate in combat when the time came. Sadly for Russia, many of those soldiers kept their passports which were later found on their dead bodies. Mind, you all of this was happening before the actual war even began.

    Fact 2: All of that took place while Russia forced itself upon Georgia as mediator for a peaceful resolution of internal issues of a foreign country. What they realy did was holding a knife at Shevardnadze's throat to accept their demand of withdrawing large portions of the Gerogian force and equipment from Abkhazia. Shevardnadze naturaly complied as he had no other choice and also wanted a peaceful resolution himself. Plus the UN did demanded so too. So he did what he tought was reasonable, especialy with all the backslash caused by the paramilitary gangs and warlords ( which later had consequences for Tbilisi - those guys were on nobodies side but themselves ... ). The Georgians did retreat most of their troops and equipment, only maintained a small portion of professional untis in Gagra due to close proximity to the tunnel that connects both countries, a small garrison in Sukhumi and some battalions in Ochamchire. So three base strategic locations, the most base and most important ones. The Russians strategy was very simple. Their terms basicaly placed the Georgians exactly where two simultanous strikes would culimate in the capture of the regions capital if things went as planned.

    Fact 3: Russia kept denying active, even passive involvment despite the absolute contrary observed by everyone in the conflict region, with the sole exception of "humanitarian aid" - just like in the Ukraine. This is important for the next points.

    Fact 4: Right when the Georgians had finished removing their troops from Abkhazia, the separatists suddenly popped up in the several thousands, heavily armed with artillery, tanks, vehicles and supported by the Russian airforce attacked the remaining Georgian garrison. At that point, even Russia found it hard to find excuses, thus why they apparently didn't give a dam anymore for the next thing. The main assault was carried out against Gagra, while a secondary "unmarked" force landed via Russian landing craft in Ochamchiere at nightfall, completly devestating the unsuspecting Georgian forces resting there. That force however was almost destroyed in return ( Russian passports ) and was put out of the operation for the most part, but not entirely. The Russian Defence Ministry was overseeing and supervising the entire manouver which was also confirmed.

    Fact 5: Russian still kept denying involvment, despite the fact its airforce kept continuesly bombing Georgian positions and troops which caused great losses. It became hard for them though, when one of its Su-27s was shot down after a sortie. That's the beauty about hard evidences.

    Fact 6: No massacres committed by the Chechens or separatists before the fall of Sukhumi was "stabilised" by anyone.

    Fact 7: Where exactly was their "stabilisation" when the insurgents and their Russian allies started rounding up and massacring thousands of innocent people ? or shot down almost every passenger plane that was trying to evacuate civilians ?

    Here is what Russia "stabilied":
    they "stabilied" the situation for the separatists so that any subsequent Georgian counter attack was prevented by threatening to bomb Georgias towns if it continued sending troops over the region's border.

    However, as I said above nobody denies crimes committed by the Georgia side. The criminal elements of the Georgian force used the opporunity to pillage and steal from everyone in sight, and also committed some murders when people opposed them. That is what thugs do. Russia always uses that as argument of enthnic based violance, when Georgians were just as valid targets for those people than anyone else. I know people who lost everything to them. The reason 'Abkhazians' were their primary target is because they basicaly reasoned with opposing party, thus they were free to do whatever they wanted with them. None of that was ever approved by either Shevardnadze, the Georgian government and most certainly not the Georgian people, who - different to Crimea - also made up the greater majority of the population in Abkhazia while Abkhazians made less than 18% of the population. Most of those criminals on the Georgian side were prosecutad or fled to Russia .... and right there, is the delecate difference. I am not judging the Abkhazians but they are very well aware what kind of .... people ... are hailed as heros over there.

    if you cared so little about the VDV soldiers

    I am sorry, why should I care for terrorists, murderers and sabouteurs disguised as "peacekeepers" .... ? and even if it wasn't all their fault but the GRU's, it's still one and the same party that gets involved.

    I feel very sorry for the people in Ossetia and I won't ever forgive Saakashvili and his thug party, but you are very apparently the one who is phobic towards Georgians.

    The Russian actions created peace... if they had not acted it would have been another genocide...

    At least be deluded without insulting peoples general intelligence. Nobody bought that back then and nobody will ever buy that nonsense, ever because it isn't true and there was not a single indication of something that horrible you accuse them of.

    They tagged collateral damage that caused the unfortunate death of maybe some 160 people in war as "genocide". That is when all your credibility goes flushing. You are repeating the same idiotical media nonsense as the Russians in 2011. Please learn the definition of "genocide" and stop using that word so lightly.

    Almost the same amount of deaths was caused on the Georgian side by pillaging Ossetians and Russian artillery / airforce shelling.

    Just a little reminder. You speak on behalf of a nation that actualy committed genocides and caused some of the greatest death tolls in recorded history. They tried to wipe out an entire ethnic group in 1872 which also affected many other ethnic groups in proximity including, surprise, Abkhazians and Ossetians .... and also caused some of the most disgusting attrocities in both Chechnya wars and also Afghanistan.

    So next time, before you post something like that, maybe contemplate about your life ....

    You are fucking hilarious....


    If I am fucking hilarous, than I wonder what that makes you comrade.

    murdering people with artillery is OK

    You are the one saying that not me. The very least you can do is to not put words in peoples mouth.

    It is most certainly not OK. I neither approve the Georgian nor the Russian shelling of Tskhinvali and other areas.

    but burning down peoples houses is a step too far?

    Ossetians demolished first their appartments in Tskhinvali and after the war, pillaged and burned down every single village, not just that, but in the process of that purposefully killing people of all age who stayed behind just to make sure realy nobody could return. Some of those bodies were badly maimed beyond any plausibility. Same with POWs that were executed and some of them extensively tortured beforehand. Purposefuly massacring the peaceful population and collateral damage caused by warfare are two entirely different tings.

    So glad you do not have access to chem and bio weapons... you could have gotten the job done properly... killed all those troublesome South Ossetians and Abkhazians but left their buildings standing ready for Georgian families to move it right away... once they clear away the bodies of course.

    Is that what you keep telling yourself to maintain an unfounded toxic Georgia-phobic mentality ? it's always the same with you devoted to death haters and c-suckers who aren't even Russian but get upset about entire ethnic groups and things not concerning them in the slightest. No offense.

    First of all I am not Russia, but their worst work was done under the control of Joseph Stalin for which the world thanks you.

    Excuse me for assuming then.

    Joseph Stalin is responsible for several attrocities against the Georgian people, especialy the prosecutions and mass-executions that ranged in the thousands following the August Uprising.

    He was Georgian yes, but considered himself a Russian and a man of Russia for Russia above all.

    Under him, the worst but also the best was done for Russia.  

    He is the reason why Russia became a nuclear power, military superpower and survived the Nazi onslaught during WW2. To Russia he was like the necessary evil that built a powerful industry and military, just timely enough to repulse and destroy Hitler. Without the forced labor and sacrifice that wouldn't have been even possible. Neither the Soviet expansion to the West and what they to this date falsely consider "lost territories".

    So yes, in fact a lot of Russians and not just them do actualy still believe he was a great guy. I do not. But I can see how they'd come to that conclusion.

    Saakashvili can't take all the blame... the timing of the attack was carefully planned and I don't thing he came up with that idea. The west is normally very quick to react to this sort of thing when their own interests are under threat but they were very tardy in this case, which suggests if it wasn't planned in the west it was certainly OKed before hand.

    You who are in charge of your nation, especialy when having created a tight monopolised police state, have the last say on everything. Of course you are to be blamed for what happens.

    You don't simply consider the military option when it is not dead obvious and visible to everyone in the galaxy, that what you do is absolutly justified. A full blown assault into the region was neither justified nor served Georgia's interest in any way. Even if we had won somewhow I still would have dissaproved of that because sooner or later such solutions, which aren't solutions at all, always backslash.

    We should have at best simply raided, destroyed or apprehended the separatist elements that were contineously causing trouble to keep things in check. We had all the advantiges to keep our guys in the field over there on top of their forces. Saakashvili completly blasted that high ground. He is just a gullible narrow minded idiot and I can't believe the Ukrainians are tolerating him.

    Right now that propaganda centre is the only centre putting out an alternative view on any topic... they don't seem to have a fixed agenda like blind support for Israel or the US or UK unlike western media services.

    No matter how long serving you are in the western media you can get fired in the US simply for stating that Israel does not treat the Palestinians very well... what sort of environment are they operating under?

    I am not sure what you are referring to but there are tons of US and European media outlets criticizing Israel, the West and even the US but nobody gets fired over it. So it must have been at least a bit controversial.

    Besides, when do you ever hear criticism against Russia in Russian media ? Never, just as it should be right ?  Wink

    Hahahahaha.... All that recon your side did, identifying locations for targets, they could not avoid the area the VDV were based?

    They didn't avoid the area, they attacked them .... after they came under attack FROM them. Get it now ?

    That is their position and I tend to believe that because there was literaly no other reason to shoot at them.

    If your job was to protect a woman in an abusive relationship and the man says he is drunk and he is going to kill her should you step aside to keep yourself safe?

    Or do you punch him in the nose and call for backup.

    Right .... except nobody was killing anyone. They are the ones with such tendencies.

    If only Russia was such a champ to it's own minorities  Wink

    You know, instead of not just abusing, but virtualy rape-murdering Chechnya to the stone age and back .... give them their independence. No ? thought so.

    The obvious solution is to build up Russian forces in the region so that further attempts are fully deterred.

    The only solution is the complete withdrawal of Russian troops and partial replacement with UN troops ( just in case of more GRU nonsense ), remove all the fences and walls so that Georgia can finaly go back to dialogue with both regions in a peaceful environment. There is no other solution.

    not to mention active georgian support for terrorists in the chechen conflicts

    More bullshit claims without any proof.

    Russia constantly tries to sabotage and destabilise us for two decades now and yet complains about supposed assassination and sabotage committed by our agencies. Even if any of that was true, what gives them the right to complain ? That is just rich.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Georgia NATO/US Relations

    Post  GarryB on Sun Dec 03, 2017 8:08 am

    It is a military alliance.

    That is what I am saying... an anti Russian military alliance....

    It does what military alliances do.

    Yup, finds the potential threats in the area and makes them into an enemy...

    Especialy understandable from the POV of Poland as it's right in their garden.

    Poor innocent Poland... that stole parts of other european countries as germany expanded early in WWII and stole land from the Russia at the end of WWI... yeah poor innocent Poland...

    If NATO's intentions were to really antagonise Russia it would equip every single member with ballsitic missiles interception capacities to prepare for eventual war.

    They haven't got any effective ABM missiles yet but have already deployed them... it is only a matter of time before more NATO countries get the same.

    Just like the promise not to expand NATO and then not to include the former Soviet Republics within NATO... a promise one day is worth nothing the next...

    Russia on the other hand is openly hostile and attacks countries in Europe.

    Openly hostile? Attacks which countries in Europe?

    Western sanctions are tantamount to an act of war BTW.... Japan invaded the Pacific for similar provocations.

    obviously in the case of Georgia because it was attacked by Russia multiple times now and is being occupied as we speak.

    Hahaha. Russia did not invade Georgia, Georgia invaded South Ossetia and was pushed out of that region to a safe distance inside georgia.

    If you can't even see the elemential difference between an international intervention against countries ruled by despots and terrorists who invaded or attacked other countries and committed genocides or supported those activities,

    I am sure that is what hitler said when he invaded france... he was freeing all of europe from despots and terrorists who have invaded most of the world and committed genocide throughout the world for the last few centuries...

    Funny thing is that when Georgia attacks a small province with artillery trying to take land but not caring too much about the people already living there (ie genocide) you think it is a good thing. But when Russia attacks back and pushes Georgia back it is being evil and aggressive and you need to join NATO to protect yourself from big evil Russia...

    wheter one of it ( Iraq ) turned out to be under false pretext of supposed bio-nuclear threat ...

    And that is the crux of the problem... you and they think it was OK because now they are better off without Saddam anyway...

    Defenders of democracy believe murder and bombing is as acceptable as the ballot box... in fact you reject the results of the ballot box in the Crimea but accept an illegal coup in Kiev, and regime change in Iraq by a coalition of the greedy and the insane...

    Russia just bluntly occupying and annexing,

    Funny that I don't see the mass protests in the Crimea and South Ossetia to bring the Ukrainian troops and Georgian troops back and for the Russian troops to leave.


    So Russia cannot help people being bombed in South Ossetia or accept the Crimea voting at the ballot box to become part of Russia but the west can make up some fairy story about Saddam being a threat to the entire world and plan and invade a country and effectively half destroy it and in the process create ISIS which is basically the left overs of the pro Saddam Iraqi Army plus a whole lot of jihadi nutter mercs from the region And... well what they did was wrong but the world is better off without Saddam right? WRONG.

    Russia went full medieval against Georgia twice now and currently Ukraine is in the process of a similar misery.


    If a Stalin like person was in charge of Russia in the 1990s you and your family would already be dead or in the far east in a salt mine.

    If that was a NATO peacekeeping force in South Ossetia they would have shot back at the Georgian forces and when Georgian forces destroyed that VDV base there would have been regime change and all of Georgia would have been overrun.

    The rebuild would have cost Georgia all its available funds and Haliburton would have gotten the rebuild contract. Your country would now be Americas bitch... so no real change there I guess.

    Yes thank god they are at least doing that. Would have been better if it was done much earlier so they were better prepared for subsequent Kremlin prepped and supported couinter offensives of the separatists.

    So NATO is therefore guilty of doing what they claim without evidence that Russia was doing to support an illegal coup.

    How democratic is that?

    The US and EU imposed sanctions against Russia for the hostile takeover and absorption of Crimea first and foremost and then, because of directly and indirectly supporting separatists in Ukraine with weapons and troops. Let's keep the order right please ....

    What hostile take over? How many were killed trying to stop Russia from doing this?

    How many protest today in the streets of the crimea?

    Surely if it was all Russian aggression the will of the people could easily stand up to the tank and the soldier on the street?


    Yes because Russia has never interfered with Europe's economy before the Ukraine and Georgia conflicts ...

    Actually they didn't even use the obvious... oil and gas... even during the cold war the Soviets never delayed the transit of gas to europe... the only time there were interruptions was when the Ukraine was stealing gas, which europe blamed on the Russians... go figure.

    Personally I think Russia should just start ramping up the price of gas, and when they don't want it any more stop sending it to them and let the fuckers freeze or pay more for the gas from somewhere else.

    Obviously however they want to sell their products and it makes sense to offer a very good price to a very good reliable partner.... I just don't think the EU is really that good of a partner to Russia.


    The US is not the reason why almost all their neighbours fear or hate them.

    Russia has some good neighbours but most have been turned against Russia... but then most of the ones that have turned against Russia were not worth having as friends anyway.... at the drop of a hat most would stab Russia in the back anyway... who needs friends like that?

    Of course it's all on Russia. Every inteference has caused greater harm and misery and that's historical facts, not mere opinons.

    So it is nothing to do with Russias neighbours.... it is all Russias fault... yeah, you sound brainwashed.

    If the opposite was the case, Russia would not be in the position it is right now. Reality doesn't lie.

    Of course reality lies.... was Germany really to blame for WWI?

    I mean from the perspective I read history from (ie the west) it was all Germanys fault.

    The UK and France were totally blameless.

    What are the Ukrainians to say ? You have almost the entire army deployed physicaly AT their border in order to eliminate logistical complications for the steady flow of weapons and troops that happen to "get lost" over the border.

    Who gives a fuck what Kiev says... an illegal coup and armed actions against its own population warrant Russia moving forces to its border.


    More like keeping Russia in check with basicaly a non-existent military alliance yes.


    Soviet forces moved out of europe and NATO forces moved in to replace them.. who was the aggressor again?

    Georgian troops suffered not nearly as much damage as the collateral destruction caused by that because guess what: the Russian artillery used was no more accurate than the Georgian.

    If you have evidence that the Russians killed more South Ossetians than the Georgians did please present it here.

    Now let's fact check how much Russia "stabilied" in that conflict.

    Now I know where the west got the idea for Maiden... but seeing as how you have already said everything that is at fault with Russias relations with its neighbours is solely Russias fault then how can I believe anything you say here... You don't care what the facts are, Russia is to blame.

    I feel very sorry for the people in Ossetia and I won't ever forgive Saakashvili and his thug party, but you are very apparently the one who is phobic towards Georgians.

    Bit of a hypocrite aren't we... why don't I forgive Georgia for murdering peacekeepers and South Ossetian civilians, but everything that happens to Russia is Russias fault and Europe needs a large bloated military organisation called NATO to defend themselves because Russia is so evil and aggressive.

    Funny thing is that the people of South Ossetia or Abkhazia or for that matter Crimea could easily vote to get them to leave...

    They tagged collateral damage that caused the unfortunate death of maybe some 160 people in war as "genocide". That is when all your credibility goes flushing. You are repeating the same idiotical media nonsense as the Russians in 2011. Please learn the definition of "genocide" and stop using that word so lightly.

    I learned from NATO in Kosovo that the G word can be used based purely on intent and I can keep using the word even after boots on the ground reveal no such massacres every happened and that if anything it was the Albanian seperatists that were responsible for body parts trade and other despicable activities.

    It is most certainly not OK. I neither approve the Georgian nor the Russian shelling of Tskhinvali and other areas.

    The former made the latter necessary, but you blame the people responsible for the latter.

    Your twisted perspective will serve you well for the US military machine.

    Purposefuly massacring the peaceful population and collateral damage caused by warfare are two entirely different tings.

    You say that ignoring what would have come next if Georgia had successfully taken South Ossetia...

    Is that what you keep telling yourself to maintain an unfounded toxic Georgia-phobic mentality ? it's always the same with you devoted to death haters and c-suckers who aren't even Russian but get upset about entire ethnic groups and things not concerning them in the slightest. No offense.

    Saakahsvili was not after new voting public, he just wanted the territory... not the people currently there.... just like the Jews don't give a shit when some Palestinians die..


    He was Georgian yes, but considered himself a Russian and a man of Russia for Russia above all.

    How convenient that he thought that.... perhaps Putin thinks he is Georgian and so the attack to push georgian troops out of south ossetia can be blamed on georgia?

    Right .... except nobody was killing anyone. They are the ones with such tendencies.

    Wow, you mean you had special American 122mm grad rockets that only kill bad people and special western shells that make flowers grown and children giggle in the park.

    Shelling a capital city is the sort of love the Kiev Junta gives to its people, or is the sort of thing the Russians do to Grozny... except in Grozny there was a declared war and the city had very few innocent citizens, but ironically that was one of the bad things you said the Russians do to their neighbours and why it is ok to hate Russians and join military clubs like NATO to rationalise your hate.

    You know, instead of not just abusing, but virtualy rape-murdering Chechnya to the stone age and back .... give them their independence. No ? thought so.

    They let them have autonomy after the first fuck up and they acted like ISIS, so Russia dealt to them properly and sorted out the situation in a much more lasting way.


    The only solution is the complete withdrawal of Russian troops and partial replacement with UN troops ( just in case of more GRU nonsense ), remove all the fences and walls so that Georgia can finaly go back to dialogue with both regions in a peaceful environment. There is no other solution.

    Nah, the status quo is just fine... it keeps NATO bases slightly further away from Moscow and gives Russia a reason to keep troops in the region in case Saakasvili has some supporters or like minded compatriots...

    The best solution all round really as it will mean no more dead Georgian troops, and no more dead South Ossetians and Abkhazians.


    Russia constantly tries to sabotage and destabilise us for two decades now and yet complains about supposed assassination and sabotage committed by our agencies. Even if any of that was true, what gives them the right to complain ? That is just rich.

    Of course I can feel the love from here.... there is no way either of you could do anything bad to the other... that just would not happen.... at all... ever.


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    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order
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    TheGeorgian

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    Re: Georgia NATO/US Relations

    Post  TheGeorgian on Sun Dec 03, 2017 10:04 pm

    That is what I am saying... an anti Russian military alliance....

    You are bullshitting in circles here and confuse the United States with NATO. If that was the prime case it wouldn't be almost physicaly non-existent. NATO is right NOW creating what one could consider a deterrent force against Russia, the Nato Response Force.

    Literaly everything else is base defence of individual member countries not even in the neighbourhood .... and not even with effective defence systems.

    Yup, finds the potential threats in the area and makes them into an enemy...

    More personal opinions without anything to back it up. What news, much surprising.

    Poor innocent Poland... that stole parts of other european countries as germany expanded  early in WWII and stole land from the Russia at the end of WWI... yeah poor innocent Poland...

    Of course they are poor. Russia literaly has nukes shoved up their noses.

    Yeah poor Russia, didn't expand by conquering half of Europe and Asia or something and now feels like a victim because those countries got their independence back .... what is this now, a circus of ignorance GarryB ?


    They haven't got any effective ABM missiles yet but have already deployed them... it is only a matter of time before more NATO countries get the same.

    No it's not and it won't happen. You are massively overbloating and overrating NATO and its European members. They don't and won't ever even meat the base spending requirements.

    Just like the promise not to expand NATO and then not to include the former Soviet Republics within NATO... a promise one day is worth nothing the next...

    That's rich. You mean just like Russias promises to anyone it ever gave promises to ? I don't know about you, but the scale of that historical embarassment streak is far greater.

    On that matter, Russia can barely take care of itself. What are the prospects for other and allied countries then .... ppl don't take such promises seriously anymore for decades now.

    Openly hostile? Attacks which countries in Europe?

    Western sanctions are tantamount to an act of war BTW.... Japan invaded the Pacific for similar provocations.

    Sanctions and War are two different things comrade lol and good luck trying to prove there are any severe sanctions going or even approved against Russia and not just politicians and Oligarchs

    Hahaha. Russia did not invade Georgia, Georgia invaded South Ossetia and was pushed out of that region to a safe distance inside georgia.

    Russia has been physicaly invading Georgia since 1993 and none of the conflictet territories are recognised as independent by the vast majority of the international community. Russia has also abused its "peackeeping" status to boost military presense in both regions years before the 2008 war and to this date, and has also committed hostile activities against Georgia also before and after the war. The most recent issue being continues "border" establishments and "pushing of fences" continuesly deeper into uncontested Georgia.

    So please spare both me, yourself and people who can read up all those documented facts, such painfuly intolerable and ignorant nonsense.

    I am sure that is what hitler said when he invaded france...


    You sure like to compare anything non-Russian agenda or anything to "Hitler" and "Nazis". Congratulations. Your credibility has reached a new low. Conversions with actual Russian patriotic fanatics results in more intelligence discussion than this ....

    Funny thing is that when Georgia attacks a small province with artillery trying to take land

    *restoring control over said rebelious province. We don't take foreign lands. We are not Russia.

    but not caring too much about the people

    except the military that was fooled in believing that operation was actualy supported by the international community ....
    literaly noone approved of the operation. The first thing I said when hearing about what was happening literaly was  "...damn why & Russia will go at war over this". Just politicaly it was a stupid decision, let alone all the harm done by it.

    And that is the crux of the problem... you and they think it was OK because now they are better off without Saddam anyway...

    Yet again more bullshit, you are again trying to put words in my mouth. When did I say I'm OK with any of what you are claiming ? I am actualy not Okay. I approved neither invasion and I generaly don't approve occupation. But the US and its allies at least don't try to physicaly claim lands on false pretext.

    Why are you doing this ? does personal credibility even mean something to you ?

    Funny that I don't see the mass protests in the Crimea and South Ossetia to bring the Ukrainian troops and Georgian troops back and for the Russian troops to leave.

    I don't know about Crimea, but every time since 2008, whenever some form of communication is established with the separtists in Smachablo and prospect of reconsilation becomes apparent to the authorities in Kremlin, the Russian side immediate counter acts by installing or moving the fences deeper into Georgia so it becomes more difficult. The most apparent case was when they ordered their separatist puppets to take over a piece of land near a pipeline and remove the Georgian flag. They did so reluctantly and ceased doing it after they were asked to explain themselves peacefully in the observers tent. Most of those guys weren't even Ossetian but Russians and guess what, they couldn't explain what exactly they were supposed to do in the first place.

    That IS funny but also sad ... on so many levels.


    [quote]Russia went full medieval against Georgia twice now and currently Ukraine is in the process of a similar misery.

    your family would already be dead or in the far east in a salt mine
    .
    You'd really like to see that don't you ?

    If that was a NATO peacekeeping force in South Ossetia

    At least learn the difference between NATO and UN.

    they would have shot back at the Georgian forces and when Georgian forces destroyed that VDV base there would have been regime change and all of Georgia would have been overrun

    ....

    The rebuild would have cost Georgia all its available funds

    O god. This is hilarious and you are so adorably naive with your severely flawed anti West sentiment. The "West" has a lot flaws and things I disagree with, but this is just cute.

    You really don't grasp the cosmic political difference it would have made / and make do you .... ?

    There wouldn't have been any war in the first place because if there really were mandated UN troops as in US or German etc instead of anything representing or remotely resembling Russian armed forces or any other Kremlin related nonsense, no Georgian government would have even dreamed of considering a military option, because there would be virtualy no reason. No skirmishes would have taken place but maybe at very best, limited individual events and that's a big maybe. At best.

    Why ? it is childishly obvious buddy. Because it wouldn't of been in UN or NATO interests to destabilise Georgia. It is only in Russia's geopolitical interest.

    Thus no Georgian government would have been forced to respond to any provocation, skirmish or sabotage and spy affairs. In fact the complete lack of toxic Russian fiddling in all spheres of economy and politics would have given the country better chances to improve overall living conditions.

    ... so no real change there I guess.

    The situation would be in an incomprehensibly improved level.

    So NATO is therefore guilty of doing what they claim without evidence that Russia was doing to support an illegal coup.

    How democratic is that?

    "without evidence" lol

    NATO is supporting and equipping the military forces of Ukraine, an independent and souvereign country, to fight Russian-backed and acitvely supported sessession.

    More than a legit cause.

    What hostile take over? How many were killed trying to stop Russia from doing this?

    That is the most miserable excuse for a hostile military takeover of souvereign forreign territories I've ever read.

    Really ? so what. Because the UA was unable to respond due to all the Chaos in Kiev ( what makes Russia' takeover of Crimea that more treacherous ), it excuses the hotile take over of Ukrainian lands ?

    wow, you are realy running out of excuses aren't you ?

    [quote]

    Russia has some good neighbours but most have been turned against Russia...

    Yeah I wonder why and "some good" realy reflects your mentality. So the rest are all trash I take because they have valid reasons ?

    but then most of the ones that have turned against Russia were not worth having as friends anyway

    lmfao, of course you'd say that.

    So it is nothing to do with Russias neighbours.... it is all Russias fault... yeah, you sound brainwashed.

    Says the man, who considers everyone unworthy peoples because they fear Russia due to it's hostile relations that are partialy consistent for centuries. Go figure.

    When its blatantly obvious Russias fault, it IS blatantly obvious. Stop playing the stupid fluite. It makes you look like a blunt instrument ....

    If the opposite was the case, Russia would not be in the position it is right now. Reality doesn't lie.

    Of course reality lies.... was Germany really to blame for WWI?

    Not exclusively no .... and nobody does exclusively blame Germany. Everyone agrees it was the general war mentality back then.

    I mean from the perspective I read history from (ie the west) it was all Germanys fault.

    Than I have no idea books you've read, because even earlier historical books don't put all the blame on Germany. But Germany was still the one that declared war on all of the Entente and its allies.

    The UK and France were totally blameless.

    Not totaly, but let's do some more basic fact checking alright ?

    When the Austrian Empire delcared war on Serbia, its ally Russia mobilised but didn't declare war yet. Germany declared war on Russia because it was mobilising an army. It was Russia that requested France and Britain to join them because the Germans initialy put Russia in a grave military position. France responded to Russias call for help by mobilising because their earlier defeat against the German Empire in 1870 still haunted them. But yet again it was Germany that declared war on France when they found out they were mobilising .... so go figure.

    Who gives a fuck what Kiev says... an illegal coup and armed actions against its own population warrant Russia moving forces to its border.

    and exactly because of statements like this, Russia loses all credibility and excuse to any form of intervention.

    Soviet forces moved out of europe and NATO forces moved in to replace them.. who was the aggressor again?

    Easy. The force that occupied said European countries in the first place. Who was that again ? yes right, the Soviet Union.

    Was everyone unhappy and felt oppressed by NATO troops when they replaced the Soviets who oppressed and eliminated and voice of reistance during their rule ?

    .... exactly.

    If you have evidence that the Russians killed more South Ossetians than the Georgians did please present it here.

    I never said they killed more civilians in Samachablo, I said, they virtualy caused the same amount of collateral damge by using the same artillery.

    Do you have any evidence of all the bullshit that was claimed by Russia early into the conflict ? most of them they refuted themselves.

    Concerning everything else, no evidences to this very date. Meaning they are talking out of their arses just to make us look bad.

    Now let's fact check how much Russia "stabilied" in that conflict.

    but seeing as how you have already said everything that is at fault with Russias relations with its neighbours is solely Russias fault

    then how can I believe anything you say here...

    Simple. Look it up yourself. You don't have to believe anything I say. All is written down and archived.

    I am using like the most base of basic facts to support my argument, I am very engaged in historical matters and have learned over the years to put all things into wider perspective besides of just blunt historical facts - that cannot be denied wheter you twist them or not.

    You don't care what the facts are, Russia is to blame.

    Are you crying ... ?

    If I didn't care for facts I wouldn't be blaming my people in the first place for what happened in 2008.

    But Russia is factualy and historicaly to be blamed for always cultivating and aggravating general instability in Georgia and other countries due to that fantasm of geostrategic needs. That is not my personal opinon, but basic historical facts, not even they themselves denie. Their analysts even pride themselves with those "achievements".

    I feel very sorry for the people in Ossetia and I won't ever forgive Saakashvili and his thug party, but you are very apparently the one who is phobic towards Georgians.

    Bit of a hypocrite aren't we... why don't I forgive Georgia for murdering peacekeepers and South Ossetian civilians, but everything that happens to Russia is Russias fault and Europe needs a large bloated military organisation called NATO to defend themselves because Russia is so evil and aggressive.

    You people are the greatest hypocrites. You overlook massive attrocities committed by the Soviet Union AND the Russian Federation AND insurgents and separatists, yet turn all puppy and care for people killed by collateral damage and declare it genocide.

    How much credibility do you think is left there ? it has passed the positve sphere now ... and is running into the negative - 100 credibility.

    Funny thing is that the people of South Ossetia or Abkhazia or for that matter Crimea could easily vote to get them to leave...

    They can't and that's exactly the point.

    Both the Abkhaz and Ossetian commanding echelons and authorities are Russian or isntalled by Kremlin. Literaly nothing that happens in both regions bypasses Kremlin. The Kremlin did once allow votes but since then not anymore because the people actualy vote based on their opinion. Not anymore after that .... and why would they now when they are building bases all over ther frikin area and boosting their military presense and shareholds along the entire coastline ? the people in Abkhazia have already tried to display their dissatisfaction on how poorly they are being represented and treated but it got completly ignored by the authorities and partialy cracked down. Do you think the Abkhaz are happy with all the Russians and Armenians appropriating their entire coastline ? they are not. But the authorities don't give the slightest dam about what they want and think. They all have their good share in it. The region suffers from intolerable conditions and criminality is blooming there like in some backwater African country. Those people need help and reconstitution, not Russia.

    As noted earlier, every effort to reconsiliate or communicate is being prevented by Kremlin with phsycial barriers like they were suffering psychotic paranoia.

    I learned from NATO in Kosovo that the G word can be used based purely on intent and I can keep using the word even after boots on the ground reveal no such massacres every happened and that if anything it was the Albanian seperatists that were responsible for body parts trade and other despicable activities.

    You can claim whatever you want, ( and massacres were perpetrated and mass graves found, that is a dam fact - however still not genocide, but massacres although noone knows what might have happened if nobody intervened ) but the term genocide applies only when you realy deliberately aim to remove or exterminate an entire ethnic group.

    It is most certainly not OK. I neither approve the Georgian nor the Russian shelling of Tskhinvali and other areas.

    The former made the latter necessary, but you blame the people responsible for the latter.

    Your twisted perspective will serve you well for the US military machine.

    You say that ignoring what would have come next if Georgia had successfully taken South Ossetia...

    Oh sure ! please educate me, us and the world on what would have come next if Georgia had successfuly regained control over that region.

    This is gonna be fun. We listen.

    Saakahsvili was not after new voting public, he just wanted the territory... not the people currently there.... just like the Jews don't give a shit when some Palestinians die..

    Sorry but that is an idiot comparison. Israeli intervention does actualy serve to expulse and clear ground for the Israelis and by doing so many thousand people have died. That is realy on the verge of a genocide. Nobody in Georgia wants to genocide anyone, that's just forced stupdity.

    It wasn't only about restoring territories but first and foremost about securing his power. Saakashvili is a man who is after votes and supporters to surround him with. He was actualy counting on at least parts of the population there to support not just the operation but his person. If he had won the war, his popularity would have completly overshadowed all the crimes he had committed since 2005. Samachablo was simply the more realistic option for a military success than Abkhazia given the limited capacities of the Georgian army at that time and the heavy Russian military presence.

    Even the defeat, made him a hero. Russia completly diverted the peoples attention from him. He just had the population cracked down in 2007 during the 100.000 protest. But the war literaly elevated him back to popularity because the country was at war with Russia and there was a new enemy that thretened the entire country.

    How convenient that he thought that.... perhaps Putin thinks he is Georgian and so the attack to push georgian troops out of south ossetia can be blamed on georgia?

    Actualy Putin did spend part of his youth in Georgia, so maybe he is in fact upset that it is growing more distant from Russia. Who knows. Or a random child bullied him and now he is seeking revenge. We can't be absolutly sure about that.

    On a serious note though, how is any of that relevant ? if I was President of Russia I wouldn't have become one because I promised its people to surrender to the US and make Georgia a greater country than Russia. I'd be fully devoted to improve living conditions and the military power of Russia to counter act any US expansional ambitions. The same applies to Stalin.

    Wow, you mean you had special American 122mm grad rockets that only kill bad people and special western shells that make flowers grown and children giggle in the park.

    Actualy those Israeli Lar-122 one are exactly configurated for maximum accuracy and yes mostly government facilities were struck by those. What caused greater damage was less precise heavy mortars and Czech RM-70, but not nearly as much as Russia likes to claim, because anything Grad related was used mainly against the VDV garrison and the Russian column advancing from the Roki tunnel.

    It was still a grave mistake to deploy them against a town. First because not least because Russia instantly used that for its propaganda and everybody ignored the fact that Russia used the same Grad systems in response and also deployed heavier Smerchs to destroy villages in which Georgian troops were suspected.

    Shelling a capital city is the sort of love the Kiev Junta gives to its people

    Like Russia did to Grozny right ? yes, we will never get around that, and its not just Grozny. It is also not just the people in Grozny but tens of thousands of innocents people all over Chechnya. Ballistic missiles were used for crying out loud ....

    But hey, you apparently also support Georgians being massacred in the thousands so ....

    They let them have autonomy after the first fuck up

    wow ... what a fucking excuse ...

    and they acted like ISIS

    So now, everyone who was raped, mass murdered, including children who were droven over by tanks - you know innocent people by the many thousands - were all ISIS so the Russian army did nothing wrong.

    I have no words.

    Nah, the status quo is just fine...

    Of course you'd say that. You virtualy disagree to everything that is not following any Kremlin agenda, through and through. I don't expect reasnoning from such people, but an amsuing discussion nontheless.

    Of course I can feel the love from here.... there is no way either of you could do anything bad to the other... that just would not happen.... at all... ever.

    Why would I or anyone for that matter ? except the unification of my people I have no ill desire towards Russia or its people. Nor do others.

    It is literaly the only source of trouble and spite. The Georgians never desired any ill against Russia in their entire history.

    Russia should cease antagonising a unified and stable Georgia and that could give the Georgian people reasons to stop desperately looking f for military and political support from the West and particularily the US. There is virtualy no other solution and I would like to see things get normalised between our countries.
    avatar
    GarryB

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    Re: Georgia NATO/US Relations

    Post  GarryB on Mon Dec 04, 2017 3:20 am

    confuse the United States with NATO

    The US is NATO... when was the last time NATO invaded/attacked a country that the US didn't want to invade/attack?

    The US uses NATO like it uses the UN... as a rubber stamp tool to enact its regime change foreign policy.

    NATO is right NOW creating what one could consider a deterrent force against Russia, the Nato Response Force.

    That is a joke... the slow lumbering NATO needs a rapid reaction force component and that is all this is.... nothing has changed otherwise, what has changed was the realisation the the Russian army is not in as bad a shape as all the NATO members believed... because they were believing their own propaganda...

    More personal opinions without anything to back it up. What news, much surprising.

    What other threats to NATO countries are there? Iran? North Korea? Cuba? Fiji?

    Yeah poor Russia, didn't expand by conquering half of Europe and Asia or something and now feels like a victim because those countries got their independence back .... what is this now, a circus of ignorance GarryB ?

    Ignorance? Are you forgetting that the so called conquering was actually liberating their own country first and other countries actually conquered by nazi germany with the direct help of innocent poland and other ungrateful shitholes that were later liberated by the Soviets... directed by your old pal Stalin?

    You are clearly the lead clown in this circus of ignorance.

    The Soviets broke the back of the Germans, but they were supposed to just withdraw and let the west recreate Germany back into the monster that attacked the Soviets in the first place? Yeah right.

    No it's not and it won't happen. You are massively overbloating and overrating NATO and its European members. They don't and won't ever even meat the base spending requirements.

    But US bases bring lots of money.. of course they want the yanks there saving them from the communist invasion... they said intially that their ABM system would just be 50 interceptors in Alaska.... it has since expanded around the world... go figure...

    Now they are violating the INF treaty by installing Mk-41 cruise missile launchers of the US Navys AEGIS system on land in eastern europe. Why would they stop now?

    That's rich. You mean just like Russias promises to anyone it ever gave promises to ? I don't know about you, but the scale of that historical embarassment streak is far greater.

    On that matter, Russia can barely take care of itself. What are the prospects for other and allied countries then .... ppl don't take such promises seriously anymore for decades now.

    So promises don't need to be kept.... good.

    I promise Georgia can have South Ossetia and Abkhazia back.... I will tell you when later.  Razz


    Sanctions and War are two different things comrade lol and good luck trying to prove there are any severe sanctions going or even approved against Russia and not just politicians and Oligarchs

    Are you stupid?

    Economic embargo is a type of siege and can be construed as an act of war.

    You could argue that the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbour was pre-emptive self defence...

    Personally I thnk it is great because it stops Russia building ties with the west and the US because that would only end up making them more like the west and the US and one west is enough.

    Russia has been physicaly invading Georgia since 1993 and none of the conflictet territories are recognised as independent by the vast majority of the international community.

    Ironic considering it was western actions in the Balkans that created the scene for 8-8-2008 to occur.

    When the west recognised the independence of Kosovo, the Russians changed their policy regarding south ossetia and Abkhazia. When they opened up to both regions they were suddenly no longer dependent on Georgia and that is when saakashvili attacked to keep them in georgias sphere of influence.

    His problem was Russia struck back.

    Russia has also abused its "peackeeping" status to boost military presense in both regions years before the 2008 war and to this date, and has also committed hostile activities against Georgia also before and after the war.

    Yeah, you said it was all Russias fault already... we heard.

    The most recent issue being continues "border" establishments and "pushing of fences" continuesly deeper into uncontested Georgia.

    Of course, but you wanting to be part of NATO means you are the enemy so stealing land from an enemy is fine.

    Or do you expect them to do nothing?



    You sure like to compare anything non-Russian agenda or anything to "Hitler" and "Nazis".

    When the shoe fits... the only problem is that I would consider being compared to a nazi as a slur, but I guess in your part of the world with your buddies in the Baltics and ukraine you probably see it as a badge of honour...

    except the military that was fooled in believing that operation was actualy supported by the international community ....
    literaly noone approved of the operation. The first thing I said when hearing about what was happening literaly was  "...damn why & Russia will go at war over this". Just politicaly it was a stupid decision, let alone all the harm done by it.

    So your first reaction was not "why was your armed forces attacking people you consider georgian?", it was.. oh oh Russia are going to attack us for this.... but Russia has been attacking Georgia since 1993 so WTF difference would that make?

    But the US and its allies at least don't try to physicaly claim lands on false pretext.

    Hahahahaha... you don't understand the US war machine at all do you?

    If it was about liberating the Iraqi people why did they race around the open desert and leave most of the cities to be dealt with later?

    Why were oilfields secured first?

    The damage done to Iraq has to be paid for and Iraqis will pay for it in oil. Iraqi companies wont be in any state to fix that level of damage to replace that amount of infrastructure... once the US has set up a puppet government it will then sell off the contracts to rebuild iraq.... most of which will go to US companies like Haliburton.

    Not only does america get paid to rebuild iraq but iraq has to pump oil to pay for that rebuild which makes oil cheap which is good for the US economy. Not only that but Iraq gets paid in US dollars for its oil so the US benefits again.

    They don't need to take control of iraq it is already a puppet state.

    Look at the history of the royal families in the Middle East... do you think they are thousands of years old? They all date from the 1920s when the european powers that won WWII divided up the known oil reserves between themselves... ignoring who lives where. That is why the place is in utter turmoil right now, which is how they like it... if they all got together as one arab state they could dictate terms of oil sales to the west...

    Better to have lots of little warring princes undercutting each other... it also gives them something to spend all their wealth on instead of health and education for their people.

    You'd really like to see that don't you ?

    Don't even know you... I am just average westerner who doesn't like Koolaide... do you think your friends in Washington care more about you and your family?

    They are arming you up and pushing you towards the bears cage in the zoo because for some stupid reason they think if the bear kills to many idiots, they might get some support to have the bear put down.

    The problem is that people can see them pushing you and realise they are as much to blame as the bear for doing what bears do.

    At least learn the difference between NATO and UN.

    Why?

    NATO peacekeepers in Kosovo would be a good analogy of the situation.... if Slobodan had attacked the terrorist KLA forces and NATO had intervened directly and the Serbs ended up shelling the NATO base do you really think NATO would have done nothing?

    Really?

    Can you say regime change... and slobodan/saakashvilis head on a platter.


    Why ? it is childishly obvious buddy. Because it wouldn't of been in UN or NATO interests to destabilise Georgia. It is only in Russia's geopolitical interest.

    Russia didn't destabilise Georgia... Georgia did.


    Thus no Georgian government would have been forced to respond to any provocation, skirmish or sabotage and spy affairs. In fact the complete lack of toxic Russian fiddling in all spheres of economy and politics would have given the country better chances to improve overall living conditions.

    I am sure they would say the same about Georgian provocations...

    But yes.. all Russias fault. Sounds like you are ready for NATO and the EU.... you sound as whiny as Poland.

    NATO is supporting and equipping the military forces of Ukraine, an independent and souvereign country, to fight Russian-backed and acitvely supported sessession.

    NATO is supporting an illegal coup made up of those nazi bastards you so dearly support by providing weapons and military training.

    Personally I don't care... I don't think Ukrainians are Russians and they don't seem to think that either. so I really don't care what the illegal government in Kiev does to them... they need to sort out their own problems.

    having said that, the illegal junta in Kiev is shelling a section of its population... why does the democratic west support that?

    Perhaps the reason I don't like the west is that its very high morals don't amount to shit when it comes to their interests.

    they could care less about iraqi lives in 1992 and then saddam becomes the focus of their anger and the iraqi people must be saved from his dictatorship, but we don't care how many we kill in the process... kinda leads me to think that it was never about democracy or peace or human rights...

    The conflict in the Ukraine is the same.


    That is the most miserable excuse for a hostile military takeover of souvereign forreign territories I've ever read.

    Hostile? Read a fucking book mate... no one died and few shots were fired... either the people of the Crimea are total cowards who wont stand up for what they believe in or they were finally getting what they have wanted for quite some time.

    Listening to Auslander the Ukies did send some people who got turned around and sent right back and not by the Russian military.

    the Russian forces who were there legally by the way... the agreement over the lease of Sebastopol means they can base soldiers there to defend their property and AFAIK they never exceeded the amount they were allowed and you can bet your ass if they did Kiev would have bitched about it.

    wow, you are realy running out of excuses aren't you ?

    Why don't you go there personally and liberate those poor lost souls from those viscious murdering Ruskies... maybe it was Russian hackers that faked the results of the vote too?

    Call Hilary... she has to know...

    Yeah I wonder why and "some good" realy reflects your mentality. So the rest are all trash I take because they have valid reasons ?

    The English language is quite complex and several words have different meanings in different contexts.

    A good neighbour does not mean they are priests and bad neighbours does not make them devil worshippers.


    But in this case however you are fight that some of Russias bad neighbours are censored .


    lmfao, of course you'd say that.

    What future can you have with someone who thinks all the problems in the world come from you?

    Just break the relationship and move on with someone interested in cooperating and moving forward.

    [qutoe]Says the man, who considers everyone unworthy peoples because they fear Russia due to it's hostile relations that are partialy consistent for centuries. Go figure.[/quote]

    They don't fear Russia... they hate Russia.

    If they want to give up their future because of the past then Russia should not hold their hand.

    [qutoe]When its blatantly obvious Russias fault, it IS blatantly obvious. Stop playing the stupid fluite. It makes you look like a blunt instrument ....[/quote]

    Of course... the US and its stooges can invade Libya and have Gaddafi murdered and they can invade Iraq and have Saddam murdered, but whoh be tide Russia helping people getting shelled by an illegal group of nazis and weirdo pro EU assholes, just because they have the support of the west...

    Not exclusively no .... and nobody does exclusively blame Germany. Everyone agrees it was the general war mentality back then.

    Well what happened to Germany after WWI led directly to Germany starting WWII... you think the terms after WWI were not a bit hard on a side that you agree was not really at fault?

    I had a maths teacher at school called mr schwalga (spelling). He was Samoan, but his German name reveals that at one time there was such a thing as German Samoa.

    The Germans lost an entire empire... the Middle East was completely redrawn by Britain and France so they could split up former German territories.

    [qutoe]Than I have no idea books you've read, because even earlier historical books don't put all the blame on Germany. But Germany was still the one that declared war on all of the Entente and its allies.[/quote]

    The history I was taught was taught to most of the British Empire... that was the view of the world I was brought up on.

    When the Austrian Empire delcared war on Serbia, its ally Russia mobilised but didn't declare war yet. Germany declared war on Russia because it was mobilising an army. It was Russia that requested France and Britain to join them because the Germans initialy put Russia in a grave military position. France responded to Russias call for help by mobilising because their earlier defeat against the German Empire in 1870 still haunted them. But yet again it was Germany that declared war on France when they found out they were mobilising .... so go figure.

    So everyone mobilised to fight Germany but Germany declared war first... the bastards.

    Now I understand your opinion.. NATO is moving armour east towards the Russian border so when Russia has had enough and pushes its forces to its own borders with NATO it will be Russias fault when NATO invades for all those material resources....


    finally living space in the east....

    and exactly because of statements like this, Russia loses all credibility and excuse to any form of intervention.

    What is credibility? Being popular on CNN or BBC?  Russia will never have that so there is no point in trying.The west sees Russia as the bad guy, perhaps if they are going to be blamed for things they didn't do or their reactions to the actions of others, they might be better off if they start acting the part of the bad guy.

    Yeah... in fact fuck Georgia... keep moving those fences... that can be reparation for the damage Stalin did to the world perhaps... and you can say Stalin through he was Russian all you want, that doesn't change anything... Hitler was Austrian too,

    Easy. The force that occupied said European countries in the first place. Who was that again ? yes right, the Soviet Union.

    First place? that would be Nazi Germany.

    Was everyone unhappy and felt oppressed by NATO troops when they replaced the Soviets who oppressed and eliminated and voice of reistance during their rule ?

    .... exactly.

    You mean like the people of Crimea getting rid of the Ukies and getting Russian troops in there... yet you still call that occupation.

    I never said they killed more civilians in Samachablo, I said, they virtualy caused the same amount of collateral damge by using the same artillery.

    So georgians killed civilians and Russians levelled buildings trying to remove georgian soldiers and you think that is the same thing.

    Yeah, nothing wrong with your moral compass...

    Meaning they are talking out of their arses just to make us look bad.

    How hard could that be, your side attack a civilian capital city with artillery and shot at civilians escaping in cars... your forces clearly wanted the land but not the people.

    Simple. Look it up yourself. You don't have to believe anything I say. All is written down and archived.

    Your personal papers or the NATO archive?


    If I didn't care for facts I wouldn't be blaming my people in the first place for what happened in 2008.

    You aren't blaming your side, you have insinuated several times that Russian provocations before and after the attack is what caused the attack... amusing you think that really but when have you suggested logic is important?

    Everyone hates Russia because Russia is bad.

    If georgia attacks South Ossetia it is because Russia is bad.

    I hear what you say, just understand that I reject it as nonsense.

    But Russia is factualy and historicaly to be blamed for always cultivating and aggravating general instability in Georgia and other countries due to that fantasm of geostrategic needs. That is not my personal opinon, but basic historical facts, not even they themselves denie. Their analysts even pride themselves with those "achievements".

    And there you go again... you don't care what the facts are Russia is to blame...

    And now it is a fact because you said it was.

    How much credibility do you think is left there ? it has passed the positve sphere now ... and is running into the negative - 100 credibility.

    So my NATO credibility score is minus 100... I will wear that badge with honour... can't refute my views then attack the person... that tells me I am right and you are wrong... thanks.

    As noted earlier, every effort to reconsiliate or communicate is being prevented by Kremlin with phsycial barriers like they were suffering psychotic paranoia.

    Hmm break away republics don't want to talk to the country that shelled them and is currently in the process of joining NATO?

    I don't understand...

    It is almost like they don't trust the people who shelled them about a decade ago. What is wrong with these people?

    ( and massacres were perpetrated and mass graves found, that is a dam fact - however still not genocide, but massacres although noone knows what might have happened if nobody intervened

    What would have happened if no one intervened? Lots of albanians would have gone back to albania and things in kosovo would have gone back to normal and the Russians would have kept a closed border to both Abkhazia and South Ossetia as per agreement.

    but the term genocide applies only when you realy deliberately aim to remove or exterminate an entire ethnic group.

    Silly boy, I come from the west, so I can bend any meaning of any word to suit my needs... democratically elected people like Chavez and Putin can be called dictators and communists, and I can suggest invasions of countries for all sorts of important reasons but at the end of the day don't need to provide any actual proof... there are no consequences later so who cares?

    Russia had to invade Georgia because Georgian hackers were making nuclear weapons and had to be stopped.


    Sorry but that is an idiot comparison. Israeli intervention does actualy serve to expulse and clear ground for the Israelis and by doing so many thousand people have died. That is realy on the verge of a genocide. Nobody in Georgia wants to genocide anyone, that's just forced stupdity.

    Careful there buddy.... Anti Israeli rants like that will get you dropped from Americas best buddy list in a heartbeat.. even suggesting Israeli settlement expansion is anything like genocide will get you dropped like a rock.

    Follow the Script... Russia bad and Israel and US good... Black and white.

    Russia can't do good things and America and Israel can't do bad things.


    Even the defeat, made him a hero. Russia completly diverted the peoples attention from him. He just had the population cracked down in 2007 during the 100.000 protest. But the war literaly elevated him back to popularity because the country was at war with Russia and there was a new enemy that thretened the entire country.

    Hahahaha... yeah, people are idiots.


    Actualy Putin did spend part of his youth in Georgia, so maybe he is in fact upset that it is growing more distant from Russia. Who knows. Or a random child bullied him and now he is seeking revenge. We can't be absolutly sure about that.

    Yet he has lost no sleep over Lithuania and the Baltic republics or Poland... what a complex guy.

    I am sure he hates Georgians as much as Georgians seem to hate Russians. The thing is that he clearly sees that South Ossetians and Abkhazians don't want to be Georgian.

    Perhaps when Georgia works this out too there can be real peace.

    The same applies to Stalin.

    Stalin did as much damage as he did good and got action and cooperation through fear and threats and murder.

    An abusive father can bring up a good son but the son is not going to thank the father for doing things that way... the fact that his father brought him up that way is no excuse.

    You beat a dog to force it to behave and you end up with a fucked up animal that you cannot trust.

    Stalin is what happens when you put a child abuser and wife beater in charge.... he was a sadistic censored 

    [quote]
    d:
    Wow, you mean you had special American 122mm grad rockets that only kill bad people and special western shells that make flowers grown and children giggle in the park.
    And you actually agreed...

    Actualy those Israeli Lar-122 one are exactly configurated for maximum accuracy and yes mostly government facilities were struck by those. What caused greater damage was less precise heavy mortars and Czech RM-70, but not nearly as much as Russia likes to claim, because anything Grad related was used mainly against the VDV garrison and the Russian column advancing from the Roki tunnel.

    Ohh come on... pull the other one...

    It was still a grave mistake to deploy them against a town. First because not least because Russia instantly used that for its propaganda and everybody ignored the fact that Russia used the same Grad systems in response and also deployed heavier Smerchs to destroy villages in which Georgian troops were suspected.

    Hey, your guys started it... did you expect the Russians to wait until they had improved their recon forces before they counter attacked?

    Like Russia did to Grozny right ? yes, we will never get around that, and its not just Grozny. It is also not just the people in Grozny but tens of thousands of innocents people all over Chechnya. Ballistic missiles were used for crying out loud ....

    But hey, you apparently also support Georgians being massacred in the thousands so ....

    Good analogy... Chechens use terrirost attacks to lay claim to land... they did it twice, the second time they already had autonomy but still attacked their neighbours, and so the Russian forces went in to deal with the problem.

    The Georgia forces shelled a city... obviously a terrorist act, and when the Russians pushed them back there was damage... Chechens at fault in Chechnia and Georgians at fault in South Ossetia... my logic is consistent how is yours?

    So now, everyone who was raped, mass murdered, including children who were droven over by tanks - you know innocent people by the many thousands - were all ISIS so the Russian army did nothing wrong.[/qutoe]

    Yeah, the Russian army went on a frenzied rampage in Chechnia... just like the Georgian army did in South Ossetia.... the difference is that there were not that many "innocent" people in Chechnia... most ethnic russians and anti rebels had been pushed out.

    Besides you should have supported that aggression... Russians fighting Russians.

    Either way you can claim it was Russias fault.

    You virtualy disagree to everything that is not following any Kremlin agenda, through and through. I don't expect reasnoning from such people, but an amsuing discussion nontheless.

    I don't speak or read Russian so I really don't know how you can trace my attitude to the Kremlin, but whatever... as long as you stop dissing Israel you should be very happy getting your instructions from the Trump...

    The Georgians never desired any ill against Russia in their entire history.

    Yet they unite behind an unpopular criminal after that criminal attacks a region you claim as your own...

    Russia should cease antagonising a unified and stable Georgia and that could give the Georgian people reasons to stop desperately looking f for military and political support from the West and particularily the US. There is virtualy no other solution and I would like to see things get normalised between our countries.

    Your Georgia is not to blame as everything is the fault of Russia attitude suggests to me that the existing situation will continue, and Georgia will form closer ties with the West and the US and NATO, which will further separate you from Russia, so they will continue to support SO and Ab as they branch out and look elsewhere for further cooperation and trade... further moving them away from Georgia.

    If you want change then you have to grow a pair and stop seeing Russia as the enemy... they don't want Tiblisi, they just want peace on their borders... and your niggling provocation shit is what has kept their attention.

    The huge Irony is that VDV peacekeepers in South Ossetia and Abkhazia and Nagorno Karabackh is what killed the CFE treaty.... and good riddance to that document too.


    _________________
    “The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order
    avatar
    TheGeorgian

    Posts : 217
    Points : 194
    Join date : 2014-06-22

    Re: Georgia NATO/US Relations

    Post  TheGeorgian on Tue Dec 05, 2017 12:12 am

    The US is NATO...

    If the US was ever NATO, there would be unity and at least half-way consensus on US proposed actions. There is not and whatever nonsense you claim, you can't denie a simple political and historical fact. US dominance has been detoriarating continuesly since 2003 and as of right now is at an all time low. It is not to be confused with contribution and presence. The US has allies that support them in war efforts, that is what military allies do. Most of NATO support exclusively in peacekeeping and humanitarian operations and counter terrorism. Russia was even part of those in some occasions, as long as it didn't touch their "sphere of influence".

    The US uses NATO like it uses the UN... as a rubber stamp tool to enact its regime change foreign policy.

    Noone has illusions in regards to US ambitions, but those are US ambitions, not that of Europe or the UN.

    The UN is not been engaged in any expansionist or unjust regime change agendas. Don't try to look more stupid than you already do.

    ... the slow lumbering NATO needs a rapid reaction force component....

    thats .... what I just said ....

    Only you still try to make it sound like NATO was arming to attack Russia which is beyond silly. Deterrent against potential and real threat or aggression is deterrent, not aggression.

    So Russia is upset that it won't ever be able to successfuly attack Europe if it ever decided to. Cry me a damn river.

    Every nation has the right to be able to defend itself no matter of part of an alliance or not.

    They are virtualy demanding that countries remain weak and served on a silver plate to Russia if war ever broke out.

    So tell me, why in the hell would anyone ever agree to that ?

    Would you agree to that ?

    What other threats to NATO countries are there? Iran? North Korea? Cuba? Fiji?

    Fanatical Islamist and fake communist countries that threaten to destroy you and your allies and actively support terrorism against a number of countries, for decades now ? seem like legit threats to me. Even Russia sees North Korea as a threat now.


    Ignorance? Are you forgetting that the so called conquering was actually liberating their own country....

    Wtf hahaha, are we real here ?

    GarryB you are so full of poor excuses it's beyong hilarious.

    First of all, I'm convinced the Polish would like to have a word with you about how much the Soviets "liberated" them and kept "liberating" them decades after.

    For that matter, I think every single nation occupied by the Soviet Union and especialy suffered oppression and crack downs for their desire of independence would like to have a word on that.

    One miserable occupyer who oppresses and executes changes the other. What kind of debile excuse is that please ... ? get real man .... realy take a book from the local library and get some education. This level of ignorance is truly intolerable, albeit funny as hell.

    The Soviets broke the back of the Germans, but they were supposed to just withdraw .... ?

    Uhm .... yes. ^^

    But US bases bring lots of money.. of course they want the yanks there saving them from the communist invasion... they said intially that their ABM system would just be 50 interceptors in Alaska.... it has since expanded around the world... go figure...

    Really ? where. Just give me one example.

    The US have embarassed themselves on a failed delivery promise of stockpile Black Hawks to Georgia .... for free ...  and you are talking about spendings on others ? lol

    Nobody gets sophisticated US equipment for free, especialy nowadays. You have to pay yourself.

    Less sophisticated weapons such as small arms, maybe. But there's no hand outs either. When they donate equipment, they do it for a price nontheless. Maybe not money, but politics.

    I can fully understand that the US is concerned about the fact the Russian nuclear arsenal is even greater than theirs plus they have the more powerful nukes.

    Now they are violating the INF treaty by installing Mk-41 cruise missile launchers of the US Navys AEGIS system on land in eastern europe. Why would they stop now?

    Right, because Russia was never or isn't violating any arms agreements or status quo or boosting its strategic offense capabilities consistantly. The f outta here ....

    That's rich. You mean just like Russias promises to anyone it ever gave promises to ? I don't know about you, but the scale of that historical embarassment streak is far greater.

    On that matter, Russia can barely take care of itself. What are the prospects for other and allied countries then .... ppl don't take such promises seriously anymore for decades now.

    So promises don't need to be kept.... good.

    according to them, no apparently. I don't see what's good about that.

    I promise Georgia can have South Ossetia and Abkhazia back.... I will tell you when later.  Razz

    You're a real joker ....

    Economic embargo is a type of siege and can be construed as an act of war.

    Yeah, construed is the magic word here amigo. Apart of your personal opinion, tell me what decision maker in Kremlin declared those little sanctions as an actual "act of war" ? do you even know what an "act of war" is .... ?

    I love when people declare wars in the name of word leaders. Thank god none of that has actual effect lol

    You could argue that the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbour was pre-emptive self defence...

    except when Russia attacks a foreign land without being neither physicaly nor economicaly pressured into submission, but just to secure its foothold in weaker countries to eliminate potential EU membership, than it's a completly different thing.

    Are you through with all the weak comparisons and excuses ?  Smile

    Personally I thnk it is great because it stops Russia building ties with the west and the US because that would only end up making them more like the west and the US and one west is enough.

    What exactly is wrong about a more unified world ? you are basicaly insisting on eternal hostility, nonsensical cultural division and ambitions of single peoples so that war may continue inevitable leading to world destruction at some point.

    I don't get that mentality.

    Ironic considering it was western actions in the Balkans that created the scene for 8-8-2008 to occur.

    The West had zero interest in splitting a unified slavic country. Stopping senseless blood shed however was in everyone's interest.

    When the west recognised the independence of Kosovo, the Russians changed their policy regarding south ossetia and Abkhazia. When they opened up to both regions they were suddenly no longer dependent on Georgia and that is when saakashvili attacked to keep them in georgias sphere of influence.

    His problem was Russia struck back.

    Yeah good chaps aren't they. Poor Russia, forced of taking actions that undermine stability and unity.

    I can fully understand that since the entire world intervened in Chechnya and is now occupying a certain percentage of Russia as supposed "peacekeepers" ....

    oh wait, they dont.

    it was all Russias fault

    Not all, but pretty much most of it, yes.

    Of course, but you wanting to be part of NATO means you are the enemy so stealing land from an enemy is fine.

    Lmfao. I won't lie. This was good. It's such a stupendously blunt and weak excuse, this one had me rolling.

    When the shoe fits... the only problem is that I would consider being compared to a nazi as a slur, but I guess in your part of the world with your buddies in the Baltics and ukraine you probably see it as a badge of honour...

    hahaha what ? you are calling everyone a Nazi now ? have I hurt your feelings that much with logical arguments ? I am sorry.

    So basicaly everyone who disagrees with your personal views on the world and has a debate with you, is a Nazi now .... go figure.

    "...damn why & Russia will go at war over this". Just politicaly it was a stupid decision, let alone all the harm done by it.

    So your first reaction was not "why was your armed forces attacking people you consider georgian?", it was.. oh oh Russia are going to attack us for this.... but Russia has been attacking Georgia since 1993 so WTF difference would that make?

    I literaly wrote my first reaction was "damn why" as in why has this to happen as in why is there to be a war you blunt instrument. But twisting words and facts is all people like you can do when confronted with logic. It's nothing new.

    Hahahahaha... you don't understand the US war machine at all do you?

    I absolutly do ... and none of it has anything to do with phsysicaly claiming territory in the manner Russia does.

    If it was about liberating the Iraqi people why did they race around the open desert and leave most of the cities to be dealt with later?

    Ever heard of basic military tactics and diversion .... ?

    Why did Rommel not exclusively take the roads or desert roots during his Africa campaign ? it has something to do with basic and deliberate military tactics.

    If you want to educate yourself about both Iraq Wars and the military manouvers of US forces and their allies, and on their hows and whys, you should read some books.

    The US and allied troops deployed the way they did to combat the Iraqi army with minimum casaulties. The Iraqi army was deployed mostly in the desert so ofc most of the combat took place in the desert .... does that answer your irritating question ?

    So instead of securing the Oil fields, they should have been destroyed right ? stripping first and foremost Iraq of its valuable resources.

    Gottya.

    Why were oilfields secured first?

    The damage done to Iraq has to be paid


    At least the US is putting somewhat effort in rebuilding. If only Russia was doing remotely that much.

    once the US has set up a puppet government

    *democratic elections, even acknowledged by Russia.

    You have little to no idea what is being established in those countries and how much is done or how much is not done and still has to be done.

    So spare us that tin foil nonsense. I at least know more because I know people who help over there.

    They don't need to take control of iraq it is already a puppet state.

    Noone tops the top puppetier and that's no the US.

    Look at the history of the royal families in the Middle East... do you think they are thousands of years old? They all date from the 1920s when the european powers that won WWII divided up the known oil reserves between themselves... ignoring who lives where. That is why the place is in utter turmoil right now, which is how they like it... if they all got together as one arab state they could dictate terms of oil sales to the west...

    Better to have lots of little warring princes undercutting each other... it also gives them something to spend all their wealth on instead of health and education for their people.

    Thing is, none of those nations that are all in relative wealth complain about that monopole because there is no internal fiddling and the economical part is something the entire world benefits from even Russia. They get all they need and also the Arab nations get weapons enmasse and physical as well as burocratic assistance in all spheres of society despite being ruled by oppressive regimes basicaly.

    It's ironic, because if that wasn't the case, wherever you live right now, you'd not even have access to the internet.

    It is also ironic you mention that because Russia's puppets aren't any different, except they are full of facades and in truth decaying as Russia can barely even sustain them properly let alone improve as quickly.

    Don't even know you... I am just average westerner who doesn't like Koolaide... do you think your friends in Washington care more about you and your family?

    I do really hope so lol

    No naturaly they don't. Why should they ? do you care for your own family first and foremost or your distant friends ?

    That applies to everyone.

    The difference between them and Russia is that so far US support has been progressive, not always positive but progressive for us.

    Russia likes always like to bark and claim about heavy US military financing and all that nonsense. They started supporting and training our military and security forces in 2001. It is 2017 now and since 2001 there has been no kind of US support that elevated our armed forces from local police-counter insurgency force to an actual conventional defence force.

    It is 2017 ... and only now, next year, in 2018 they are starting to train the battalions of our armed forces in how to adequately defend against enemy armed forces .... as an armed force.

    Neither has the US ever supplied us with heavy weapons. All we got originated from post Soviet sphere stockpile of Eastern Europe and some artillery, SAM systems and some fancy looking small arms from Isarel. All financed by the wealth of Georgian and jewish-Georgian business men, Saakashvili was completly depending on. Most acquired hardware from Eastern Europe was in miserable condition nontheless ... so poor in fact, half the equipment Russia captured in the August War was blown up because they couldn't even move them.

    They are arming you up and pushing you towards the bears cage in the zoo because for some stupid reason they think if the bear kills to many idiots, they might get some support to have the bear put down.

    Except the initial involvment of the US only focused on fighting Chechens in connection to ricin affair and Al Qaeda. Russia actualy supported that operation despite being nervous about US influence in the region. Georgia and the US denied the Russians participation simply because both feared it would boost Russias foothold if they started bombing the shit out of Georgias Pankisi Gorge and sending troops into yet another Georgian region.

    Why?

    NATO peacekeepers in Kosovo would be a good analogy of the situation.... if Slobodan had attacked the terrorist KLA forces and NATO had intervened directly and the Serbs ended up shelling the NATO base do you really think NATO would have done nothing?

    Really?

    Can you say regime change... and slobodan/saakashvilis head on a platter.

    You know when facts are facts ? when they happen. Everything else is speculation. Learn the difference. You can't declare wars and steal foreign lands because you have a hunch or your left ball is itching ....

    Russia didn't destabilise Georgia... Georgia did.

    Good joke. Next one.

    I am sure they would say the same about Georgian provocations...

    Except there wouldn't be any, because there wouldn't be any reasons. Get it now ? I guess not.

    But yes.. all Russias fault. Sounds like you are ready for NATO and the EU.... you sound as whiny as Poland.

    They stop antagonizing, let us reunite and become valuable allies ? we will all but forget NATO.

    NATO is supporting an illegal coup made up of those nazi bastards you so dearly support by providing weapons and military training.

    Stop calling all Ukrainians who disagree to Russias needs Nazis for the sake of what credibility is left in you.

    Stop also with that BS-ass "illegal coup" nonsense. It was a Revolution and Russia can cry me a damn river that theiy Yanukovich puppet was disposed. He was a criminal anyway and like a criminal scum the first thing he did was fleeing back to his puppeteer, leaving behind his fancy golden dacha.

    Personally I don't care... I don't think Ukrainians are Russians and they don't seem to think that either. so I really don't care what the illegal government in Kiev does to them... they need to sort out their own problems.

    Yet you care enough to call them things and support Russia's illegal military actions against them. Legit.

    having said that, the illegal junta in Kiev is shelling a section of its population... why does the democratic west support that?

    Nobody supports the indiscriminate shelling of populated areas and killing of innocents that were / are commenced by both sides. Whoever does, is inhuman scum and sadly some people on both sides do.

    Perhaps the reason I don't like the west is that its very high morals don't amount to shit when it comes to their interests.

    At least they have high morals and more perspective, also it amounts more than from anyone else. Not perfect, far from good, but still better than the crippling alternative.

    they could care less about iraqi lives in 1992...

    Give me a damn break

    Russia didn't and doesn't give the slightest damn either, neither in Afghanistan, Chechnya, Abkhazia, Ossetia or the Ukraine. It's all about political interests. At least the West and Western organisations are helping and providing proper aid and shelter on a massive scale. Compared to that Russia has virtualy done nothing.

    Hostile? Read a fucking book mate... no one died and few shots were fired... either the people of the Crimea are total cowards ....

    that is not a damn argument, like literaly. Russia used its military power to disarm the UA and completly seal off the entire peninsula kicking the Ukrainians out. This isn't even a matter of debate or "perspective" and POV. Only a delusional blunt instrument would try to twist it into anything else but hostile takeoever.

    hostile force ( any force intruding without mandate or approval of intruded country is hostile ) invades foreign land, repulses military of foreign land out of its recognised territory to ultimately absorb it. What is so difficult to understand here .... ?

    Listening to Auslander the Ukies did send some people who got turned around and sent right back and not by the Russian military.

    Right. I also heard from my deceased grand parents recently that the supposed unmarked Russian troops were in fact not Russians, but Ukrainians who kicked out their comrades.

    Please ....

    the Russian forces who were there legally by the way... the agreement over the lease of Sebastopol means they can base soldiers there to defend their property and AFAIK they never exceeded the amount they were allowed and you can bet your ass if they did Kiev would have bitched about it.

    Lmfao nice try. Nobody denies the mandate and lease that was in effect or troop numbers. What's your point ? the Peninsula still belongs to Ukraine just like Sevastopol even if that particular town had special status.

    What ecactly has any of that to do with the fact that Russian troops rolled all over the place and took over the entire peninsula ?

    The English language is quite complex and several words have different meanings in different contexts.

    A good neighbour does not mean they are priests and bad neighbours does not make them devil worshippers.


    But in this case however you are fight that some of Russias bad neighbours are censored .

    Yeah in case of you, it's virtualy everyone who disagree with Russias politics. We got it Smile

    What future can you have with someone who thinks all the problems in the world come from you?

    A good future if the one who causes all the problems improves and starts behaving more reasonably towards its neighbours.

    Just break the relationship and move on with someone interested in cooperating and moving forward.

    We already do that. There is only one problem. Russia has to give us back our territories, then we can move on.

    They don't fear Russia... they hate Russia.

    Hate comes from fear. But nobody is wholeheartedly even hating on Russia

    If they want to give up their future because of the past then Russia should not hold their hand.

    Nobody is giving up anything. They had and have a choice, they made theirs and you can't blame them for it.

    Russia simply doesn't offer much prospect. Especialy not in its current state.

    Of course... the US and its stooges can invade Libya and have Gaddafi murdered and they can invade Iraq and have Saddam murdered, but whoh be tide Russia helping people getting shelled by an illegal group of nazis and weirdo pro EU assholes, just because they have the support of the west...

    Russia has an equal murdering streak when it comes to deposing opponents and even more obvious streak in taking out political opponents or rebelious indepdence seekers.

    The only reason I do not approve of any of that be it US or Russia is because A ) you are fiddling in the internal affairs of another country, what may destabilise the situation ever further and B ) it will draw other powers into the conflict that guarantees even further destabilisation and death.

    Generaly however I completly approve of the removal of psychotic murdering despots.

    Well what happened to Germany after WWI led directly to Germany starting WWII... you think the terms after WWI were not a bit hard on a side that you agree was not really at fault?

    Victors always tend to bully the losers and it's never fair. The French in particular wanted payback for their humiliation a couple decades earlier. Germany in return humiliated them in WW2.  

    The Germans lost an entire empire... the Middle East was completely redrawn by Britain and France so they could split up former German territories.

    So did many peoples when losing a conflict. Another reoccuring theme in history.

    Yes that's what victors do. Like the Soviet Union for instance. Was also good in redrawing borders and causing cultural conflicts.

    When the Austrian Empire delcared war on Serbia, its ally Russia mobilised but didn't declare war yet. Germany declared war on Russia because it was mobilising an army. It was Russia that requested France and Britain to join them because the Germans initialy put Russia in a grave military position. France responded to Russias call for help by mobilising because their earlier defeat against the German Empire in 1870 still haunted them. But yet again it was Germany that declared war on France when they found out they were mobilising .... so go figure.

    So everyone mobilised to fight Germany but Germany declared war first... the bastards.

    It is a historicaly a dumb move wheter you call it "preemtive" or not. Because if all of them had declared war on Germany first, it would lead to even greater support of a more neutral POV on the entire matter.

    Now I understand your opinion.. NATO is moving armour east towards the Russian border so when Russia has had enough and pushes its forces to its own borders with NATO it will be Russias fault when NATO invades for all those material resources....

    US mobilising a couple thousand troops in several NATO countries not even damn close to Russia's border for military manouvers to train a multinational brigade ....

    and Russia deploying almost 100.000 men at Ukraine's border with thousands of corresponding equipment ....

    Yes clearly NATO is the potential warmongerer here ....

    finally living space in the east....

    Wtf lmao. I'm a Georgian, not a German based Nazi who cries after Hitler and "space in the east".

    What is credibility? Being popular on CNN or BBC?

    Basic reasoning and elemential truth. You talk CNN or BBC, yet love RT. Any sane man would despise such media in the first place. THe only thing they are good for is to compare their propaganda BS in relation to events and construct something that makes sense out of that mess. But if you are half way smart and care for your mental stability, you don't bother with that BS in the first place.

    The west sees Russia as the bad guy

    That's rich. Have you ever watched Russian TV .... ?

    Compared to Russian TV there is almost nothing reported in Western media about Russia. Only if something controversial happens.

    Russia has entire documentaries and shows devoted on slamming not only US / Western politics but also lifestyle etc.

    Yeah... in fact fuck Georgia... keep moving those fences...

    Now we finaly see his true face. Let it all out Smile

    that can be reparation for the damage Stalin did to the world perhaps...


    but for the love of god, at least come up with excuses that make some kind of sense or doesn't make you look like a complete mustard ....

    Been literaly facepalming on this one for 2 minutes straight. Good job. Noone has ever achieved that.

    First place? that would be Nazi Germany.

    So second place then. Does it change anything .... ?

    I think you can answer that question yourself.

    You mean like the people of Crimea getting rid of the Ukies and getting Russian troops in there... yet you still call that occupation.

    Except we are talking about peoples that got actualy occupied and oppressed .... and by foreign powers. None of that applies to Crimea in regards of Ukraine.

    So georgians killed civilians and Russians levelled buildings trying to remove georgian soldiers and you think that is the same thing.

    It is. Russians also killed civilians bombing Georgian towns and settlements and also people who remainded in Tskhinvali with their bombs and missiles, not just Georgian troops. It is called collateral damage.

    I am pointing that out because of your stupid unsupported claim of "genocide".

    So Russians and especialy Ossetians also committed genocide then, because in particular Ossetian fighters deliberately massacred civilians in their homes.

    Genocide, no discussion.

    How hard could that be, your side attack a civilian capital city with artillery and shot at civilians escaping in cars

    Very, when you have no proof, only claims. Or are you sources for proof the two horrible Russian PR movies made about the war ?

    You know where the Georgains are driving around and yelling "Yeehaa" in American accent, while shooting a running civilian ?

    Almost all claims are ones neither the Russians nor Ossetians could prove to this date. But what is proven is that Russia blatantly lied about cluster bombs, napalm and ballistic misiles and most other things it denied to have used against populated areas.

    Nowadays you can proof who fired what and when based on the trajectory that can be determined and it has been proven that Russian artillery did almost as much damage.

    ... your forces clearly wanted the land but not the people.

    You are absolutly in no position to know what was wanted by whom in the Georgian miliatry, neither have any right to claim such things especialy without any evidence or proof to back it up.

    I however do because I spoke to the people who fought in that war and they naturaly had and have a completly different and undestandable POV and position on the whole thing that makes you and people like you look completly stupid. The most important thing is that they shot at whoever shot at them and avoided harming civilians as much as they could. Of course there are always idiots you can single out in every army. There are many among the Russian troops and separatists fighting in Ukraine, who show zero respect to POWs and evem fallen enemy soldiers.

    If you cared so much about civilians that were harmed, why haven't you said anything about the Georgians who were killed as well in 2008 or massacred by the thousands in 1993 for that matter ?

    If you cared so much about civilians that were harmed why don't you contemplate about who you are supporting and look into and be upset about the thousands of innocent people that were systematicaly tortured and killed in both Chechen Wars ?

    Your personal papers or the NATO archive?

    There is tons of literature and analyst papers about those wars both Russian and non-Russian. Why don't you pick one and read.

    You aren't blaming your side, you have insinuated several times that Russian provocations before and after the attack is what caused the attack... amusing you think that really but when have you suggested logic is important?

    I blame the Georgian side for reacting to all the provocations with a full fledged military operation when there could have been less harming, overall more logical and if retaliation to those were realy necessary - then more subtile responses. So that neither civilians nor Georgia's territorial stability would have suffered further. Get it now ?

    Everyone hates Russia because Russia is bad.

    I hate Russias politics and the general war mongering mentality of Kremlin. I don't hate Russia as such, and neither does the rest of the world. Anything else is delusional cacaphony.

    I hear what you say, just understand that I reject it as nonsense.

    I know, and you are very clear on that, though if only your reasoning was even remotely logical and in touch with reality ....

    And there you go again... you don't care what the facts are Russia is to blame...

    And now it is a fact because you said it was.

    Look its hard to argue first of all with historical facts and when you studied the history of the parties involved. Be my guest and prove me wrong.

    I don't understand...

    I see that.

    So you basicaly can't even grasp the difference between Kremlin not wanting to and the Ossetians not wanting to .... because that's the point. The Ossetians have absolutly nothing against that notion, even welcome it, while Kremlin is the one that violantly flails around to prevent it by all means, even physicaly.

    That's the sad reality.

    What would have happened if no one intervened?


    Purely based on the mass atrocities committed by several sides in the conflict, if noone intervened, it would have escalated in greater blood shed.


    Silly boy, I come from the west, so I can bend any meaning of any word to suit my needs... democratically elected people like Chavez and Putin can be called dictators and communists, and I can suggest invasions of countries for all sorts of important reasons but at the end of the day don't need to provide any actual proof... there are no consequences later so who cares?

    Joker. Except you actualy can't. I mean you can try to insist sure, at cost of your own credibility. But it won't change the actual meaning of a term and it makes people who use that on anything look very stupid and lose all credibility. But sure, be my guest on that as well.


    Careful there buddy.... Anti Israeli rants like that will get you dropped from Americas best buddy list in a heartbeat.. even suggesting Israeli settlement expansion is anything like genocide will get you dropped like a rock.

    They themselves aren't realy settle about it.

    Hahahaha... yeah, people are idiots.

    Unfortunatly that is often true.

    Yet he has lost no sleep over Lithuania and the Baltic republics or Poland... what a complex guy.

    Yeah right. So much so that he is constantly worried about Poland's defence acquirements and shoves Topols into their nose.

    I am sure he hates Georgians as much as Georgians seem to hate Russians. The thing is that he clearly sees that South Ossetians and Abkhazians don't want to be Georgian.

    He doesn't give a crap about Abkhazians or Ossetians. Read my previous post. It's not about them at all, let alone in the first place. Russians are building investment ala Israel in Abkhazia and treating both regions like giant troop polypgons while the population is starving and sinking deeper into all high corruption and crime. If any of that was even remotely true, they wouldn't be in such unworhtly inhuman condition.

    If goverment control was restored over them the people would get jobs, the regions, especialy the coastline would flourish even moreso than Batumi, order would be in place, police and anti crime measures would be enforced etc. There is not base individual protection or any saftey and esnurances. Both population and infrastructure are rotting away.

    Perhaps when Georgia works this out too there can be real peace.

    Of course there would be. But that requires Russian authority and troops release the leash on the Abkhazians and Ossetians and let us work in a peaceful environment on dialogue with them. Dialogue works perfectly well. That has been proven before the 2008 even when there still was tension and skirmishes. You cannot come to terms and compromises if you aren't even allowed to have dialogue with the other side. Russia prevents exactly that. Because guess what, they decide everything.

    Stalin did as much damage as he did good and got action and cooperation through fear and threats and murder.

    An abusive father can bring up a good son but the son is not going to thank the father for doing things that way... the fact that his father brought him up that way is no excuse.

    Yeah whatever. You can twist and tweak it as much as you like and nobody disagrees on the fact he was a mass murderer, but he is the reason to why Russia stands as it does and at all for that matter.

    You beat a dog to force it to behave and you end up with a fucked up animal that you cannot trust.

    Stalin is what happens when you put a child abuser and wife beater in charge.... he was a sadistic censored 

    .... what ?

    Wait wait wait wait ..... wait.

    Let me get this straight. So you're saying ... it's basicaly our fault, because we are responsible for a greater and more powerful Russia but now must feel the consequences and wrath for an abusing relationship as our own monster now turns on us .... ?

    Are you sure you don't want to become a Hollywood director ? because that sounds awesome lol

    Ohh come on... pull the other one...

    Base military operational facts.

    Hey, your guys started it... did you expect the Russians to wait until they had improved their recon forces before they counter attacked?

    Even if I approved of the Russian intervention in the first place at all, good reconnaissance is the least you can expect from a powerful country like Russia that has frikkin satelites .... unless you simply don't give a dam, what is more likely.

    Good analogy... Chechens use terrirost attacks to lay claim to land... they did it twice, the second time they already had autonomy but still attacked their neighbours, and so the Russian forces went in to deal with the problem.

    and by doing so tens of thousands of people were killed. Just put that into perspective for a moment ....

    The Georgia forces shelled a city... obviously a terrorist act, and when the Russians pushed them back there was damage...

    This is gold.

    When Georgians shell a city where the shelling is mostly targetet at enemy forces its "a terrorist act", but when Russia levels entire towns and erradicates half a regions population it's completly out of necessity.

    One question. How long is Putin's d*** ?

    Must have enjoyed stroking that one, based on that nonsense you just wrote.

    Yeah, the Russian army went on a frenzied rampage in Chechnia... just like the Georgian army did in South Ossetia

    Never ever again compare those two events .... ever.

    Russians drove their tanks over children ....

    and you question my moral compass ?

    Besides you should have supported that aggression... Russians fighting Russians.

    Why exactly would I support that or any blood shed for that matter ?

    I actualy feel very sorry first of all for the Chechens that were brutaly massacred but also the Russian troops that were not involved in crimes and just fought and died there in equaly poor circumstances.

    Either way you can claim it was Russias fault.

    The subsequent war and it's consequences ? Yes.

    I don't speak or read Russian so I really don't know how you can trace my attitude to the Kremlin, but whatever... as long as you stop dissing Israel you should be very happy getting your instructions from the Trump...

    Oh realy ? wow, sorry for assuming then lol I realy had no reasons whatsover right ?

    Pluis it's not like you've been calling me things or claiming stuff I haven't even said here or something.

    Really mate, don't play the flute. You don't have to an ethnic Russian to support Russian politics and be biased towards Georgians for whatever reasons. I know a person who has zero input on all those conflicts but defends Russian politics more aggressively than any of my Russian pals ( who btw many of them disagree with lot of it despite their resentments against the US ) just out of spite for the "West" yet can't for her living explain to me why. They only get upset when I question their motives and arguments. That is a common symptom that applies more often to devoted Putin supporters than anything else.

    But it has also become a thing with Trump I noticed.

    a region you claim as your own...

    *is our own as it always has been.

    With your logic, Crimea and half of Russia does not belong to Russia.

    We can at least claim more than a millenium and a half.

    If you want change then you have to grow a pair

    We have to grow a pair ? we are not the insecure nuclear power with unused massive territory that bullies its small neighbour because it has its own independent political desires, besides maintaining a stable souvereignity and unity.

    and your niggling provocation shit is what has kept their attention.

    Yet a greater display of insecurity. When a country the size and power of Russia sees a simple non-hostile political step of a small independent souvereign nation, as provocation and threat, than it is in a greater crisis than I thought and needs some proper progressive leadership.
    avatar
    GarryB

    Posts : 16882
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    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Re: Georgia NATO/US Relations

    Post  GarryB on Tue Dec 05, 2017 12:11 pm

    The UN is not been engaged in any expansionist or unjust regime change agendas. Don't try to look more stupid than you already do.

    Really? Tell Gaddafi about the UN imposed no fly zone and how the US and France used that to provide ground support to their terrorist proxies for regime change... Oops, no you can't because he is currently dead and able to tell no tails... convenient?

    Only you still try to make it sound like NATO was arming to attack Russia which is beyond silly. Deterrent against potential and real threat or aggression is deterrent, not aggression.

    Hahahahaha... yeah... NATO moving NATO bases and NATO forces to Russias border is deterrent, and Russia responding by moving its military forces within its own border to position them nearby in case of attack by NATO is aggression... I read the NATO songbook... you need to angle your head higher so you look down your nose at everyone and stick your arse out more when you say that.

    So Russia is upset that it won't ever be able to successfuly attack Europe if it ever decided to. Cry me a damn river.

    Russia is upset that it needs to spend money on weapons to vapourise its neighbours it used to trade with, but the guns and missiles it makes to point at Poland will sell well in the Middle East and they can always get apples from other countries.


    Every nation has the right to be able to defend itself no matter of part of an alliance or not.

    Yes, every nation has the right to join a Nazi organisation and antagonise its large neighbour... you can do what you like but I am just telling you it wont end up with you getting what you actually want.

    Don't listen to me though... just listen to Europe and the US because all they want is peace and harmony.

    They are virtualy demanding that countries remain weak and served on a silver plate to Russia if war ever broke out.

    Those countries ARE weak and would be rolled over in days... do you think being a member of NATO will help you any if you decide to take back South Ossetia or Abkhazia by force?

    You become cannon fodder and fighting space for NATO...

    Would you agree to that ?

    So NATO hands over anything you ask for with full training... how many trillions of dollars in debt do you think you would need to spend to make Russia fear Georgia?

    How many civilians would you have left for that sort of armed force?

    You make it sound like joining NATO will suddenly make you an equal to Russia and be able to do what you want, when in actual fact it would make you weaker, because the Russians would not build up their defences and force capabilities opposite your border.

    But lets ignore logic and let you explore your powerful side...

    BTW we don't have a large military here in NZ... we don't need one.

    Our army is used for peacekeeping ops around the world and our navy patrols our large EEZ and the seas around us.

    Our air force had a useless fighter component to it for a long time but now it is just transports for the army, though normally like most armies they mostly move by sea.

    Fanatical Islamist and fake communist countries that threaten to destroy you and your allies and actively support terrorism against a number of countries, for decades now ? seem like legit threats to me. Even Russia sees North Korea as a threat now.

    Hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha... you are a joker,.... the islamic threat comes from Saudi Arabia... the US just sold billions of dollars worth of hardware to them.... nutter islamists is a police matter not a NATO matter.... unless you mean for NATO countries to stop selling military hardware to some of the most dangerous regimes on the planet... Quatar, Saudi Arabia, UAE, Israel, US etc etc.

    First of all, I'm convinced the Polish would like to have a word with you about how much the Soviets "liberated" them and kept "liberating" them decades after.

    The Soviets didn't owe the Poles anything... soldiers from eastern european countries took active part in destroying the Soviet Union with their Nazi allies, and not only that they tried to take control from the Nazis in Warsaw before the Soviets arrived so they could dictate terms... Stalin was too smart for them though wasn't he?

    And before you call it a war crime the allies took Paris because they suspected the communist resistance might take it first, which is pretty much the opposite of what happened in Warsaw.

    For that matter, I think every single nation occupied by the Soviet Union and especialy suffered oppression and crack downs for their desire of independence would like to have a word on that.

    They can bitch all they like... if they were prepared to take on the Nazis on their own at the cost of tens of millions of soldiers then they could have liberated themselves.

    They can whine to the western allies for not moving D Day from 1944 to 1941. They didn't because they didn't want that sort of loss.

    They let the Soviets take the losses instead...


    One miserable occupyer who oppresses and executes changes the other. What kind of debile excuse is that please ... ? get real man .... realy take a book from the local library and get some education. This level of ignorance is truly intolerable, albeit funny as hell.

    If they had the spine to liberate themselves there would not have been a problem.

    That harsh occupation by the Soviets is an amusing education for them perhaps... maybe if they want to be liberated by a third world country with nukes then they need to learn to live in a third world country.

    Uhm .... yes. ^^

    The Soviets knew they could trust the west no more than they could trust the Germans... eastern europe became the buffer between the Soviets and the west and performed that role nicely.

    If the west wanted eastern europe to be free they simply could have withdrawn first... they didn't either.

    Really ? where. Just give me one example.

    The US have embarassed themselves on a failed delivery promise of stockpile Black Hawks to Georgia .... for free ... and you are talking about spendings on others ? lol

    Nobody gets sophisticated US equipment for free, especialy nowadays. You have to pay yourself.

    Don't be a fool, they are American bases in Eastern europe... the claim is that they are ABM sites but the one they orignally planned had the mid course interceptor that would be no use against anything targeting europe... they were to intercept missiles on their way to the US.

    The radar setups look deep into Russian air space though... and not by accident.

    Nobody gets sophisticated US equipment for free, especialy nowadays. You have to pay yourself.

    Less sophisticated weapons such as small arms, maybe. But there's no hand outs either. When they donate equipment, they do it for a price nontheless. Maybe not money, but politics.

    I can fully understand that the US is concerned about the fact the Russian nuclear arsenal is even greater than theirs plus they have the more powerful nukes.

    You don't know them at all... they will be generous and give Georgia soft loans of millions or billions of dollars... two catches of course... first they are loans so they need to be paid back eventually with moderate interest, and second you can only buy US products with the loans... old F-16s that are pretty worn out, old armour, that sort of stuff...


    Right, because Russia was never or isn't violating any arms agreements or status quo or boosting its strategic offense capabilities consistantly. The f outta here ....

    Evidence?

    I promise Georgia can have South Ossetia and Abkhazia back.... I will tell you when later. Razz


    You're a real joker ....

    Hey, come on... I promised you what you wanted... in a few years time when nothing has happened I can say all the things the west says now when it renegs on things, but in the mean time you should cooperate with me because I am giving you what you want... It wont be later that I call you an aggressor and impose sanctions on your country and turn all your neighbours against you...

    It is fun to be the west.... just not very ethical.

    Yeah, construed is the magic word here amigo. Apart of your personal opinion, tell me what decision maker in Kremlin declared those little sanctions as an actual "act of war" ? do you even know what an "act of war" is .... ?

    You mean like moving troops over a border and shelling a capital city? Yeah I know...

    I love when people declare wars in the name of word leaders. Thank god none of that has actual effect lol

    So lets call it a police action like the Vietnam war.

    xcept when Russia attacks a foreign land without being neither physicaly no

    You mean to defend people from their own government who is shelling them in South Ossetia or the Donbass?


    What exactly is wrong about a more unified world ?

    The unified world the west wants is a world run by the US dictated to via the UN, and controlled by big business... fuck that.

    The West had zero interest in splitting a unified slavic country. Stopping senseless blood shed however was in everyone's interest.

    Yeah... UNSC resolution 1244 or something talked about the fact that Kosovo is a part of Serbia and that should not be changed... and then they ignored it.

    If they were against senseless bloodshed WTF have they been doing in the Middle East for the last two decades?

    What about their rapid and decisive action regarding the massacres in Rwanda... no oil and they are black so who cares right?

    Yeah good chaps aren't they. Poor Russia, forced of taking actions that undermine stability and unity.

    I can fully understand that since the entire world intervened in Chechnya and is now occupying a certain percentage of Russia as supposed "peacekeepers" ....

    oh wait, they dont.


    Now you are getting it.. the rules are different for big powerful countries.... even the US didn't come in to save Georgia against Russia just like Russia could not go in and save Serbia from NATO.

    And why whether you join NATO or not you are a small weak country... just like NZ.

    What you don't realise is that joining NATO wont make you stronger.. it will just antagonise Russia and make your position weaker in terms of getting what you want.


    So basicaly everyone who disagrees with your personal views on the world and has a debate with you, is a Nazi now .... go figure.

    The baltic countries and eastern european countries you so strongly defend miss their nazi rulers more than they miss their commie ones, and you sympathise more with them than with the Russians so it makes sense to me.

    Half the nutters in the illegal government in Kiev are openly nazi and you support them too.


    I absolutly do ... and none of it has anything to do with phsysicaly claiming territory in the manner Russia does.


    Funny that I look at the map of Europe and I see certain things like Austria is not part of the Soviet Union and never was... could say the same about other countries like Poland and Hungary etc etc... Soviet troops withdrew from Austria and made no attempt to assimilate any of the countries of the countries they liberated.

    Amusingly the baltic states actually got their independence from Russia during the creation of the Soviet Union... when the soviets overran the nazis they took those places back but otherwise there was no major expansion of Russia... after 1991 they let them go too and have made no attempts to get them back despite their treatment of Russian citizens within their new countries.


    Ever heard of basic military tactics and diversion .... ?

    No it does not. They didn't give a fuck about the Shia majority, because they know they are pro Iranian anyway. The Sunni forces they were fighting are more their natural ally being pro Saudi.

    After Desert Storm the Americans called for the Shia majority to rise up and topple saddam, and left them hanging to be butchered by Saddams forces... help never arrived because after they thought it through they preferred saddam in power than a pro iranian shia government.


    Why did Rommel not exclusively take the roads or desert roots during his Africa campaign ? it has something to do with basic and deliberate military tactics.

    If you want to educate yourself about both Iraq Wars and the military manouvers of US forces and their allies, and on their hows and whys, you should read some books.

    Rommel didn't give a shit about the Arabs either... he wanted Middle Eastern Oil to run the German war machine... he could care less about liberating anyone.


    So instead of securing the Oil fields, they should have been destroyed right ? stripping first and foremost Iraq of its valuable resources.

    Set fire to or capped an oil field can't be destroyed, but they still secured them first, because the oil was more important than the people.

    At least the US is putting somewhat effort in rebuilding. If only Russia was doing remotely that much.

    The Americans did the damage in the first place and let the Iraqis pay the Americans to rebuild... do you think they did it cheap.... most of the American money was loans and went into American pockets and the Iraqi people have to pay that back.

    Russia is hardly going to help an American stooge.... Now however Iraq is becoming more independent and Russia is supplying weapons for a reasonable price, which benefits Iraq as much as it benefits Russia.

    The difference between them and Russia is that so far US support has been progressive, not always positive but progressive for us.

    I am sure on your side of the fence everything in the Crimea and South Ossetia and Abkhazia is chaos and criminal gangs.... and Russian aggression ....hahahahahaha...

    You can't declare wars and steal foreign lands because you have a hunch or your left ball is itching ....
    You can't if you are the leader of Georgia or the coup leader in Kiev, but you can in Moscow or Washington or Brussels.

    Learn the rules.

    Except there wouldn't be any, because there wouldn't be any reasons. Get it now ? I guess not.

    Hahahaha... he said she said... Russia did everything and Georgia did nothing but reacted to Russian aggression.

    Well Russia is a big country and Georgia isn't... in this school yard there are no teachers to stop a fight, so if a little kid picks on a big kid or doesn't bow down when a big kid demands it he gets the shit kicked out of him. You need to learn to pick your fights... georgia fucked up.


    They stop antagonizing, let us reunite and become valuable allies ? we will all but forget NATO.

    Cause and effect... the effect will only stop when the cause is removed from the equation...

    And "All but" is not good enough...

    You are sounding like a NATO promise from the early 1990s.

    [quote]
    Stop calling all Ukrainians who disagree to Russias needs Nazis for the sake of what credibility is left in you.


    When you openly support Nazis you are no better.

    [quote]Stop also with that BS-ass "illegal coup" nonsense. It was a Revolution and Russia can cry me a damn river that theiy Yanukovich puppet was disposed. He was a criminal anyway and like a criminal scum the first thing he did was fleeing back to his puppeteer, leaving behind his fancy golden dacha.

    It was not done via a ballot box, it was a violent coup.... which is illegal.


    Yet you care enough to call them things and support Russia's illegal military actions against them. Legit.

    I don't care at all.. the pro illegal coup forces are pro nazi, and I have no problem with Russian citizens helping their neighbours if they want because the forces they are fighting against are illegal and not a legitimate government.

    Personally I don't hope for a pro ukrainian government... it would be better for Russia to look elsewhere for friends, and the Ukraine is such a leech I would prefer to see it supping on EU money instead.

    The ideal situation is for the fighting and shelling to stop and the separatists to get their own country like the albanians did in Kosovo.

    They can then have close ties with Russia and the rest of the Ukraine can go fuck itself.

    At least they have high morals and more perspective, also it amounts more than from anyone else. Not perfect, far from good, but still better than the crippling alternative.

    The problem there is that the West never applies its own high morals on its own actions, only as a judgement tool on others.

    North Korea and Iran can't have nuclear weapons, then why does Israel not lead by example and give up theirs?

    For self defence you say... couldn't Iran and NK say they need them for the same reason? Or can you pick and choose who can defend themselves?

    At least the West and Western organisations are helping and providing proper aid and shelter on a massive scale.

    The west has done more to create misery in this world than it has done to alleviate it.... just look at chinese investments in africa... they drill some oil and build roads and schools and hospitals.... more than any western oil company ever did.


    that is not a damn argument, like literaly. Russia used its military power to disarm the UA and completly seal off the entire peninsula kicking the Ukrainians out. This isn't even a matter of debate or "perspective" and POV. Only a delusional blunt instrument would try to twist it into anything else but hostile takeoever.

    hostile force ( any force intruding without mandate or approval of intruded country is hostile ) invades foreign land, repulses military of foreign land out of its recognised territory to ultimately absorb it. What is so difficult to understand here .... ?

    They disarmed the UA military and then they let the people of the Crimea have a vote. The people of the Crimea voted on their future. What is so hard to understand here?

    If the people of the Crimea were forced against their will to join Russia where are the protests... the crackdowns... the civil unrest....

    If they can fucking do that in the Crimea why didn't they do it in Kiev?


    Right. I also heard from my deceased grand parents recently that the supposed unmarked Russian troops were in fact not Russians, but Ukrainians who kicked out their comrades.

    Please ....

    Doesn't matter if they were the tooth fairy... they disarmed the nazis and allowed a free and fair referendum to take place.

    Even EU referendums are not that fair... they normally repeat them every few years until they get the result they want and then they stop...


    Lmfao nice try. Nobody denies the mandate and lease that was in effect or troop numbers. What's your point ? the Peninsula still belongs to Ukraine just like Sevastopol even if that particular town had special status.

    What ecactly has any of that to do with the fact that Russian troops rolled all over the place and took over the entire peninsula ?

    The people of the Crimea got to get their say and they have spoken.

    If they really wanted to stay with the Ukraine they would have by now.

    A good future if the one who causes all the problems improves and starts behaving more reasonably towards its neighbours.

    You think trying to join NATO will earn you the respect of Russia?

    and Russia deploying almost 100.000 men at Ukraine's border with thousands of corresponding equipment ....

    Hahahaha... I see you are getting your numbers from your NATO allies... 100,000 troops going to exercise in Belarus... and most of them will stay to face NATO.... I believe about 8,000 troops were involved in that operation and they all went back to Russia afterwards...


    Basic reasoning and elemential truth. You talk CNN or BBC, yet love RT. Any sane man would despise such media in the first place. THe only thing they are good for is to compare their propaganda BS in relation to events and construct something that makes sense out of that mess. But if you are half way smart and care for your mental stability, you don't bother with that BS in the first place.

    Yeah, don't listen to Russia, Russia bad, Russia lies...

    So I think I can put my finger on a few reasons why Russia is going to stay in those new autonomous regions near you.... NATO, and the fact that you wont even listen to Russias point of view means there wont be any compromise unless Russia says its all its fault.... which is not going to happen.


    Very, when you have no proof, only claims. Or are you sources for proof the two horrible Russian PR movies made about the war ?

    Actually it was a claim by a young American girl visiting relatives... they were shot at when they left the area despite clearly being unarmed in a civilian vehicle with a group of other civilian vehicles.

    They interviewed her on CNN but cut her off when they worked out she wasn't saying bad things about the Russians.

    They also interviewed her on Russia today where she was able to say what she experienced in full.

    If you cared so much about civilians that were harmed, why haven't you said anything about the Georgians who were killed as well in 2008 or massacred by the thousands in 1993 for that matter ?

    When a burglar breaks into a house.. even if he owns the house and is the landlord, and starts killing people... even accidently I am not going to cry that he cut his hand on the window getting in. When the occupiers of the house start shooting back and hit a neighbour then that is sad too but why would I blame anyone but those that broke into the house illegally and created the whole situation in the first place.


    I blame the Georgian side for reacting to all the provocations with a full fledged military operation when there could have been less harming, overall more logical and if retaliation to those were realy necessary - then more subtile responses. So that neither civilians nor Georgia's territorial stability would have suffered further. Get it now ?

    And then you say it was Russias fault because of their provocations it never would have happened...

    Joker. Except you actualy can't. I mean you can try to insist sure, at cost of your own credibility. But it won't change the actual meaning of a term and it makes people who use that on anything look very stupid and lose all credibility. But sure, be my guest on that as well.

    You new buddies invented this, but they are the most credible pillars of the moral international community.... no wonder you love them they can do no fucking wrong.

    Yeah right. So much so that he is constantly worried about Poland's defence acquirements and shoves Topols into their nose.

    A TOPOL would not be much use against Poland unless it is located in the Russian Far East.

    I would say Iskanders with nuclear warheads in Kaliningrad would be a much simpler option...

    Even if I approved of the Russian intervention in the first place at all, good reconnaissance is the least you can expect from a powerful country like Russia that has frikkin satelites .... unless you simply don't give a dam, what is more likely.

    Why would Russia have satellites operating over Georgia?

    and by doing so tens of thousands of people were killed. Just put that into perspective for a moment ....

    But they were saved from oppression like the Iraqis under saddam and the Libyans under Gaddafi and eastern europe under hitler and then stalin....


    Russians drove their tanks over children ....

    and you question my moral compass ?

    Of course they did.... it was on CNN and the BBC...

    No wait a minute that was school children being murdered in Beslan by Chechen terrorists and Russian soldiers fighting them.

    That is a common symptom that applies more often to devoted Putin supporters than anything else.

    Of course... not just Russias fault but also Putins fault too.

    *is our own as it always has been.

    With your logic, Crimea and half of Russia does not belong to Russia.

    We can at least claim more than a millenium and a half.

    Might makes right.

    So Kosovo now belongs to Albanian terrorists because of the power of NATO and the US, and South Ossetia and Abkhazia are not Georgian anymore thanks to the power of Russia.

    We have to grow a pair ? we are not the insecure nuclear power with unused massive territory that bullies its small neighbour because it has its own independent political desires, besides maintaining a stable souvereignity and unity.

    Grow a pair in the sense of being a man and not hiding behind the US or NATO, show a bit of respect to Russia and the two regions you want to take control of... I still don't think they want you in charge but as long as you don't threaten they might talk to you... and eventually things could be worked out.

    Behind NATO skirts they will just see guns and not be interested.

    When a country the size and power of Russia sees a simple non-hostile political step of a small independent souvereign nation, as provocation and threat, than it is in a greater crisis than I thought and needs some proper progressive leadership.

    It doesn't matter how friendly and cuddly you try to make yourself now, they saw you hit the bitch and they don't think you are genuine in wanting to make up...

    Besides they were not asleep in the 1990s if they pack up and leave then before you know it US based will pop up in the new territories and they will have to deal with that sort of shit... makes sense to just stay put and keep the US bases a few extra kms away from Russian territory.


    _________________
    “The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order
    avatar
    TheGeorgian

    Posts : 217
    Points : 194
    Join date : 2014-06-22

    Re: Georgia NATO/US Relations

    Post  TheGeorgian on Tue Dec 05, 2017 7:33 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    Really? Tell Gaddafi about the UN imposed no fly zone and how the US and France used that to provide ground support to their terrorist proxies for regime change... Oops, no you can't because he is currently dead and able to tell no tails... convenient?

    Nice try. First of all it was NATO not UN.

    Secondly, the UN resolution on Lybia was approved by 10 and 5 declared abstinance, including Russia, not veto. That's the decicive part here.  If those countries were opposing the notion they had all the right to express it. They didn't.

    Funny that you throw your consciousness completly out of the window when defending Russia's past and current actions but are completly devoted in rambling about "NATO".

    It's not like NATO outright attacked Gaddafi. The UN intervened after deliberate purges and heavy human rights violations became too obvious as to ignore by anyone.

    Obviously  the West also used the opporunity to reform that country, but Lybia is anything but under their influence. In fact neither the EU nor US do realy want to have anything to do with the mess especialy due to ISIS threat, which is being fought and that fight is supported by both the US and Russia.

    But you probably gonna put the tinfoil hat on all of that.

    Just like you claim about everyone non-Russian he thinks it's all exclusively Russia's fault.

    You keep rambling it's all the "Wests" fault.

    Nice self reflection.

    Besides. Keep supporting terrorists and despots. We understand where you're coming from.

    Hahahahaha... yeah... NATO moving NATO bases and NATO forces to Russias border

    Sigh .... that ignorance ....

    Nobody is .... moving .... NATO bases ( especialy lol ) closer to Russia. Neither are NATO forces moving closer to Russias border. Like where ?

    Boosting military presence in NATO countries for manouvers .... and actualy deploying troops close to the Russian border .... are two cosmic differences.

    Russia is literaly placing thousands of troops AT the border and INSIDE its neithbouring countries ....


    is deterrent, and Russia responding by moving its military forces within its own border to position them nearby in case of attack by NATO is aggression

    What a damn hypocrite lol

    Not "nearby". Physicaly *AT and IN.

    Yeah right lmao

    So Russia is upset that it won't ever be able to successfuly attack Europe if it ever decided to. Cry me a damn river.

    Russia is upset that it needs to spend money on weapons

    Poor uncentralised non autocratic Russia, had all its resources originaly devoted to development, infrastructure, non-military science and social progress before all the crisis ....

    lmao

    Yes, every nation has the right to join a Nazi organisation and antagonise its large neighbour.

    So now not only actual Nazis ( of which there are more in Russia btw ) - EVERYONE is a Nazi now. Sure you haven't left out anyone on this planet ? you should double check.

    Don't listen to me though...

    Ehm ... are making me chose between your credibility and the rest of the world and myself ?

    Look man, no offense, but I gotta side on the rest of world here lol

    Was a hard decision though. ^^

    Those countries ARE weak and would be rolled over in days...

    You sound to me like someone who realy wants to see those countries get destroyed. What does that type of rhetoric make you look like ?

    an aggressor maybe ?

    do you think being a member of NATO will help you any if you decide to take back South Ossetia or Abkhazia by force?

    Oh ghad. You don't even get the elemential reasoning to why we want to join NATO.

    Do you realy think we are sacrificing and crippling our people in foreign countries just so we can get at war to lose and cripple more people and the entire country ?

    What do you think we want NATO protection against .... ? very difficult question You consider yourself a genius. I am sure, you can at least figure that one out ....

    You become cannon fodder and fighting space for NATO...

    What concern is that to you ?

    Besides getting salarey bonus for deployment and extra compensation in case something happens, many people do join those efforts because they actualy believe that they are fighting for a just cause.

    It is their decision.

    Why does Russia not committ more resources in fighting domestic terrorism ? because it still hasn't dealt with it in a peanut sized region of it's huge ass territory.

    So NATO hands over anything you ask for with full training...

    You are insane and truly suffer delusions.

    NATO didn't hand over ( especialy hand over ) anything we asked since 2001 and not even adequate training. All the Soviet junk we got was acquired for actualy more money than it cost.

    If you don't take my word for granted, at least do some basic research and look at what we acquired since 2001.

    If NATO and Israel handed us over what we actualy wanted our T-72s would have been replaced by Merkavas, the AK-74 replaced with actual COLT M-4s and our vehicles and flying apparatus all be replaced with Western gear.

    All you see on our soldiers, except the AR-15 Bushmasters and Kalashnikovs obviously, is domestic product. The uniforms, helmets, vests, and the Georgians.

    I love how some people even to this date try to draw the Georgian army as an effective fighting force clad in NATO armor. If only.

    how many trillions of dollars in debt do you think you would need to spend to make Russia fear Georgia?

    Our military goal is not make Russia fear us, but think twice about attacking us, and so that we can hold out at least for a bit and inflict some damage or delay so that the internatioal community can react - if at all. We are not even counting on it.

    That's like the modest of goals any country can have.

    How many civilians would you have left for that sort of armed force?

    Georgia doesn't need a large military force. It needs a professional one and that's what we are trying to build in 2018.

    You make it sound like joining NATO will suddenly make you an equal to Russia


    From the POV of Georgia, NATO serves as deterrent against Russian aggression, but also boosts its military defence capabilities.

    Former is arguable, latter is a fact.

    be able to do what you want

    based or implied by what ? your anti Georgian sentiments are irritating. They would have been somewhat understandable during the 2008 war at best. But now you are talking with no evidence or even implication.

    In 2008 Georgia launched an offensive.

    Since 2008 Russia has been further detoriarating the situation while Georgia trying to do everything to improve it.

    Now you shit all over us for acquiring basic defence weapons as Russia is continously boosting its troop presence in both regions for no reasons whatsoever.

    Even if the Georgian army was fully prepared and fortified to anticipate any Russian aggression and fight it, the available Russian force in one of the regions alone with support of naval and air elements would completly steamroll it.

    Again, if you don't take my word on this, check how many troops they have deployed in Georgia.

    They deployed yet more T-90s and other tanks recently, way before the US assured further assistance and you babble some nonsense about Georgian "threat" ? at least sound somewhat credible.

    How do you think all those activities are received by Georgia ? a gesture of good will ? especialy in connection to the fence policy.

    Try to put things into perspective for a moment and look at the situation from the POV of the opposing side also.

    But oh wait, you consider us any everyone who isn't in support of Russias political agendas, Nazis ....

    Surely such a person is capable of reasoning


    BTW we don't have a large military here in NZ... we don't need one.

    Our army is used for peacekeeping ops around the world and our navy patrols our large EEZ and the seas around us.

    Our air force had a useless fighter component to it for a long time but now it is just transports for the army, though normally like most armies they mostly move by sea.

    Ehm ... neither does Georgia and we also don't need one, contrary to the overbloated armies of virtualy all our neighbours.

    btw NZ - New Zealand ? seriously mate ?

    New Zealand is surrounded by frikkin oceans mofo lol

    What, do you have territorial struggles with the Atlantians and Aquaman .... or the penguins ?

    Bit of a hypocrite aren't we ? you took part in all of those wars.

    Fanatical Islamist and fake communist countries that threaten to destroy you and your allies and actively support terrorism against a number of countries, for decades now ? seem like legit threats to me. Even Russia sees North Korea as a threat now.

    Hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha...

    Yeah, I realy don't see what's so funny about that situation. The Iranians have been smuggling weapons and terrorists all over the place way before many of the recent conflicts. The North Korean leadership is just bat shit crazy. Those are two problems.

    You are frikkin hilarious.

    So what exactly is Russia's excuse for arming the Saudis ? they just recently signed another 3bn dollar arms deal with them. Let me guess, in this case its absolutly reasonable since it suits Russia making money with it, but all the rest are Nazis of course. Big bad Nazi West !

    Saudi Arabia has been the sin pool for everyone, not exclusively the West amigo.

    "damn, didn't think of that....better shift topic". Be my guest. You're welcome.

    The Soviets didn't owe the Poles anything...

    Yeah, you have been very clear about what you think of Poles .... probably would have suited you if the Nazis and Soviets killed them all.

    soldiers from eastern european countries took active part in destroying the Soviet Union with their Nazi allies

    Are you fucking ..... 'not very intelligent' ? the Soviet Union attacked, sacked and occupied Poland with their at that point in the conflict, Nazi buddies.

    Then they proceeded massacring their entire military officer cadres because they were a potential threat for the future. Thousands were executed.

    Then during the Warsaw uprising, they just watched how the Nazis quelled it so that the Polish resistance was removed and it was easier for the Soviets to take it from them and establish control without any Polish resistance. Thats a fact even many Russian historians acknowledge.

    Then followed decades of Soviet oppression.

    Yes Poles hated the Soviets just for the sake of hating.

    They had absolutly no historical reasons for resentment whatsoever ....

    Read a damn book GarryB. Your ignorace at this point is offensive.

    the allies took Paris because they suspected the communist resistance


    The allies took Paris along the way to clear it from the Wehrmacht mate .... because France was an occupied country.

    The race to Berlin, yes that is definitly something that happened, but the Soviets won that race.

    They can bitch all they like...


    Very self reflecting comment.

    They let the Soviets take the losses instead...

    Yeah right, because launching a risky invasion that could have cost the allies hundreds of thousands of troops if they met even adequate, not just decent, but only adequate German resistance .... instead of you know that confused mild mannered mess of opposition they faced, thanks all to diversionary intelligence and espionage building up the operation for years, would have been so much better.

    Soviet losses were unproportionaly high in the first years of war, but then became more or less acceptable and similar to German losses when their military operations were better organised and resembled some form of decent strategy and tactics and also because Germans blasted their load in the first 2 years.

    Sure, its all the allies fault.

    In fact it was the "West" that attacked Russia, not Nazi Germany.

    Those bastard Americans, supplying the Soviets with arms and food !

    One miserable occupyer who oppresses and executes changes the other. What kind of debile excuse is that please ... ? get real man .... realy take a book from the local library and get some education. This level of ignorance is truly intolerable, albeit funny as hell.

    If they had the spine to liberate themselves there would not have been a problem.

    Easy thing to say for someone in his cosy basement somwehre in the sorry - but anus of the world, surrounded by nothing but peaceful oceans.

    So it's just your fault when you are weak and someone more powerful comes into your house, punches you in the face and declare all your belongings and your ass his play thing right ?

    Btw it not makes it any better if one drunk absuing invader replaces the other.

    ... maybe if they want to be liberated by a third world country with nukes then they need to learn to live in a third world country.

    LMAO - you do have a comedic gene. Maybe use it.

    The Soviets knew they could trust the west no more than they could trust the Germans...

    Those excuses getting funnier ....

    eastern europe became the buffer between the Soviets and the west and performed that role nicely.

    .... and funnier.

    If the west wanted eastern europe to be free they simply could have withdrawn first... they didn't either.

    The West didn't withdraw because of the Soviet threat. Where do you think would the Soviets have halted if the presence of Western allied forces didn't stop them ? in Berlin right ?

    Don't be a fool, they are American bases in Eastern europe... the claim is that they are ABM sites but the one they orignally planned had the mid course interceptor that would be no use against anything targeting europe... they were to intercept missiles on their way to the US.

    American .... bases yes.

    Not weapons "donated" to countries. Otherwise all of Europe would be full with Patriots.

    The radar setups look deep into Russian air space though... and not by accident.

    So what are you implying ? that the US wants to attack Russia ? based on what ? defensive weapons ? Russia's radars also oversee neighbouring countries, except Russia actualy DOES attack its neighbours.

    You don't know them at all...


    You literaly see what they are doing. I resort from speculating and wait for actual facts.

    they will be generous and give Georgia soft loans of millions ..... of dollars... two catches of course...

    Even if so, you are reaching for some insignifcant stuff trying to make it look bad and evil.

    A loan is still a loan, you need to pay back. We already have massive issues on that in regards to French anti air missiles.

    or billions

    lmfao ^ if only ....

    .... old F-16s that are pretty worn out, old armour, that sort of stuff...

    You realy have absolutly zero clue about Georgia and its current situation and general political interests do you ?

    It is not in Georgias interest whatsoever to acquire new tanks of fighter jets. We are not talking about political interests only, but base military interests of the Georgian military.

    The goal of the Georgian military is to boost defence capacities, but also replace what is currently rotting away out of pure base necessity of maintaning an armed force. The air component is almost completly defunct because all the Su-25s are becoming obsolete despite modernisation, half of them are stuck in the plants for repairs, same with helis.

    What the Georgian army is trying to do right now is sell all of that and replace its strike aircraft with less durable, but cheaper drones with weapon configuration. If that's not sad, I don't know what is.

    Getting spare parts for Mi-24s and Mi-8s has become difficult to almost non existent, as Ukraine is at war, every other nation with Soviet inventory won't because their stuff is also becoming obsolete and they have the same issues. Russia is modernising all their current equipment.

    The US promised us Black Hawks as a gesture of partnership etc in 2014, but it's 2017 and we haven't seen a single Black Hawk rotor ....

    It is fun to be the west.... just not very ethical.

    It is not fun to be Russia on top of not very ethical.

    It would be fun, if Russia was at least as powerful a nation it pretends to be.

    Maybe they need another Georgian leader ....

    You mean like moving troops over a border and shelling a capital city? Yeah I know...

    I wonder if you are talking about Afghanistan or Sukhumi that got shelled by Russian jets during the Abkhazia War, since Russia wasn't involved in any of that.

    Oh, oh now I get it. You are referring to the Georgian operation in Samachablo. Yeah, too bad you don't have a point because it's not a foreign country but a rebelious region.

    Come up with an actualy valid analogy I guess .... ?  dunno

    So lets call it a police action like the Vietnam war.

    The questions tands: where is NATO physicaly attacking Russia with its military ?

    It would make any sense if NATO was actualy attacking Russia.

    Funny thing is, you make claims, Russian athorities don't.


    You mean to defend people from their own government who is shelling them in South Ossetia or the Donbass?

    Yes, the Georgian people are so happy that Russia "protected" them by occupation.

    At least you aren't denying involvment in Donbass.

    Btw, nice try diverting from your crappy analogy there lol

    The unified world the west wants is a world run by the US dictated to via the UN, and controlled by big business... fuck that.

    So you'd rather a unified world run by Russia dictated to via a Russian constructed International Institution for Rights controlled by big business that are even more oppressive and undermining ?

    This is what I meant by "crippling alternative".

    Yeah... UNSC resolution 1244 or something talked about the fact that Kosovo is a part of Serbia and that should not be changed... and then they ignored it.

    Just like Russia ignored anything it previously had signed with Georgia before even the war, starting with its supposed "peacekeeping" status and several incursions into Georgian airspace, and suspected ground incursions to "fight militants". Because fuck established and recognized nations borders right ? didn't seem to care about that in 2014 either.

    If they were against senseless bloodshed WTF have they been doing in the Middle East for the last two decades?

    But the Soviets invading to violently overthrow the Afghan regime and establish full control over Aghanistan leading to millions of dead and displaces is absolutly OK or what ?

    NATO intervened because Bin Laden openly declared war on them. They removed the Taliban and Al Qaeda threat and fought insurgencies since 2001, now left in 2014 and currently are underway with the Resolute Support Mission.

    The Afghan population actualy welcomes the protection provided by those efforts. If you'd had any insight apart of your personal opinion, you wouldn't be so incredibly biased and one sided about it.

    There is literaly no comparison to both wars.

    Many thousands of people, I think around 30-40.000 have died mainly deaths caused by terrorist attacks, compared to an estimated almost 2 million dead in the 90s ( both Western and Russian sources ), and some of it as result of Soviet punishment for supporting the Taliban.

    What about their rapid and decisive action regarding the massacres in Rwanda... no oil and they are black so who cares right?

    Does Russia care ?

    Now you are getting it..

    Not me, but I think you're slowly grasping reality and that all the excuses you are trying to make are complete nonsense.

    You're welcome.

    And why whether you join NATO or not you are a small weak country... just like NZ.

    and ?

    so we have no right to exist or have rights ? is that what you're saying ?

    What you don't realise is that joining NATO wont make you stronger..

    We don't want to get stronger, but be protected against Russia. It is like base survival instinct. You as a nation get attacked, you seek for protection from a force that can provide for you.

    The baltic countries and eastern european countries you so strongly defend miss their nazi rulers more than they miss their commie ones

    oh come on .... because Russia is so caring and symphatetic to letting in thousands of refugees ....

    and you sympathise more with them than with the Russians so it makes sense to me.

    Lmfao. Top reasoning. Academic level.

    So your strategy is basicaly surrounding yourself with Nazis so that I can't say I'm not supporting Nazis .... clever.

    Half the nutters in the illegal government in Kiev are openly nazi and you support them too.

    I mean, I appreciate your effort deciding in my stead who I support or not ... lol

    But I support the more resonable part of the Ukrainian goverment.

    I actualy disapprove of Poroshenko, not least because he was sheltering Saakashvili and now can't grow the pairs to extradite him to Georgia despite being oppenly insulted by him .... what a man.

    ... Soviet troops withdrew from Austria and made no attempt to assimilate any of the countries of the countries they liberated.

    you mean besides trying to assimilate and force their socialist doctrines and lifestyle onto them .... right.

    ....but otherwise there was no major expansion of Russia...

    the f ... are you smoking .... ?

    after 1991 they let them go too and have made no attempts to get them back despite their treatment of Russian citizens within their new countries.

    If only Russia was so christian with all its other neighbours and countries it had occupied.


    Ever heard of basic military tactics and diversion .... ?

    No it does not.

    Your denial doesn't really negate facts.

    They didn't give a fuck about the Shia majority, because they know they are pro Iranian anyway. The Sunni forces they were fighting are more their natural ally being pro Saudi.

    Neither agreeing nor disagreeing here, because things were done and things were not done ....

    ... but still it's a fact that those basic of basic military manouvers were first and foremost aimed at eliminating the enemy military. So you have no point.

    ....they thought it through

    At least they actualy thought it through and contemplated and considered. But then aggain Saddam was still Saddam just like Assad is still Assad.

    Rommel didn't give a shit about the Arabs either... he wanted Middle Eastern Oil to run the German war machine... he could care less about liberating anyone.

    Neither did and do the Russians. It's all about politics and economy to them as well. Would be a hard loss for Russia if America eliminated their their military presence there and established those pipelines.

    Set fire to or capped an oil field can't be destroyed, but they still secured them first, because the oil was more important than the people.

    They secured them first you genius, because they were literaly physicaly in their way as they were advancing from Kuweit and the Saudis from Saudi Arabia. They didn't secure the oil fields with their advancing forces, but forces they detached explicitly to secure the oil fields. You are stretching wide an issue that is virtualy non existant. Try harder with your excuses ....

    Because it's becoming very repetitive and boring.

    The Americans did the damage in the first place and let the Iraqis pay the Americans to rebuild... do you think they did it cheap.... most of the American money was loans and went into American pockets and the Iraqi people have to pay that back.

    Yeah those evil American bastards. Not like the Soviet Union, that invaded, raped Afghanistan then left, because its army was worn out by the conflict and it became pointless, just to leave Afghanistan in a greater mess than it already was.

    Where were the reparations there ?

    I am sure on your side of the fence everything in the Crimea and South Ossetia and Abkhazia is chaos and criminal gangs.... and Russian aggression ....hahahahahaha...

    as I said. I can't talk for Crimea because I've never been there and people tell me mixed stories, but in case of those two regions, it's miserable.

    What some people think, still doesn't negate actual facts of illegal military incursion. Smile

    .... but you can in Moscow or Washington or Brussels.

    Learn the rules.

    So what does that "rule" make them all look like ?

    Russian aggression

    Yeah admittedly in 2008 it was less obvious, but in 1993 it was blatantly obvious, and it is blatantly obvious since 2008.

    Well Russia is a big country and Georgia isn't...

    I mean, everyone has the right to have personal views and opinions about the world  .... but not when it comes to rights.

    Rights make people equal. If you are an advocate of power over right, than that is were we already fundamentaly disagree.

    I don't see Russia having more rights than any other souvereign nation be it the size of an appartment or the moon.

    The fact their mentality and perhaps also yours dictates that it is laughable that a nation the size of an appetment compared to them should even have rights in the first place, just perfectly reflects what everyone dismisses, fears and hates.

    Cause and effect... the effect will only stop when the cause is removed from the equation...

    That is what I'm saying. They stop beeing a bully, we may fully reconsider our political ambitions of joining the West and rather become a neutral buffer.

    And "All but" is not good enough...

    Yeah, because fuck souvereignity and independent decisions of other countries right ?

    You are sounding like a NATO promise from the early 1990s.

    and you're sounding like a typical oppressor and invader.

    When you openly support Nazis you are no better.

    So credibility means nothing to you ?

    It was not done via a ballot box

    Yeah, Russia an it's famous "ballot boxes" with 103% ....

    it was a violent coup.... which is illegal.

    *Revolution

    Of course its illegal when it doesn't suit Russia.

    But storming a capital and shooting the current leader of a country is acceptable. Legit.

    I don't care at all..

    But you do. You care enough to wish them ill.

    because the forces they are fighting against are illegal and not a legitimatente government.

    So, after that Revolution, how long are you going to call every democraticaly elected government in Ukraine "illegal" ? until Russia takes over Ukraine and installs another puppet ? Smile

    Personally I don't hope for a pro ukrainian government...

    Why is that ? would that make the Russian goverment look weak ? you people are greater war mongerors than any of the governments. Good god ....

    The ideal situation is for the fighting and shelling to stop and the separatists to get their own country

    Absolute No.

    Generaly I don't understand people who want further division and honestly I see you as a threat to humanity.

    They can then have close ties with Russia and the rest of the Ukraine can go fuck itself.

    Again, good thing ppl like you have no authority over such questions. Kremlin for all its massive and unforgivable flaws and cimes, does still have reasonable people compared to you lot.

    The problem there is that the West never applies its own high morals on its own actions, only as a judgement tool on others.

    Sounds very familiar, like a certain other highly hypocrite nation ....

    North Korea and Iran can't have nuclear weapons, then why does Israel not lead by example and give up theirs?

    According to even Russia they shouldn't ....

    Because the entire Arab world tried to swallow and devour them alive and its one of the deterrents that make those guys think twice before launching another multiple front attack.

    ... couldn't Iran and NK say they need them for the same reason? Or can you pick and choose who can defend themselves?

    If those countries where so stable, trustworthy and credible ( instead of you know ..... openly threatening to attack and destroy you and special emphasis on your allies .... ), why would they need nukes or even exist in their current states ? why do all other countries not have nuclear deterrents ?

    Complicted world .... except not.

    The west has done more to create misery in this world than it has done to alleviate it.... just look at chinese investments in africa... they drill some oil and build roads and schools and hospitals.... more than any western oil company ever did.

    What a bloated and pretentious nonsense. If there was an alternate timeline of events, say Russia was repacig the United States in being more powerful and able to expand its sphere of influence and dominance, what do you think it would have caused less misery in the world ? that's a horribly unintelligent assumption.

    They disarmed the UA military

    That exactly is what makes everything else illigitimate.

    If they can fucking do that in the Crimea why didn't they do it in Kiev?

    What kind of comparison is that ? obviously that would have lead to open war and not limited to Ukraine.

    Crimea was an easy target because the Russian army and navy was already in place and the Chaos in Kiev made Crimea ripe for the taking.

    Kiev was not in Russias interest. Finaly taking over the peninsula however was.

    Doesn't matter if they were the tooth fairy... they disarmed the nazis and allowed a free and fair referendum to take place.

    Yes it does. It were unmarked Russian troops, even Putin openly acknowledged that. But funny he violently denied it during the takeover.

    What "Nazis" ... so now the UA troops on Crimea were Nazis trying to invade Russia or what ... ?

    get real mate.

    If they really wanted to stay with the Ukraine they would have by now.

    You are deluded beyond comprehension. Crimea is part of Ukraine with a majority ethnic Russian based population. Nobody denies that. But the Russian military was deployed on Ukrainian soil and attacked and disarmed the Ukrainian military to seal off said Ukrainian soil. If it was a realistic referendum all of Ukraine would have taken part of it. But obviously it was deliberately sealed off so that people could "vote" for "independence" - which quickly turned into absoruption. Viola, smart way of seizing territory. Except it isn't, nobody agrees and nobody got fooled.

    Keep trying twisting it.

    When Russia can't even respect the base rights, constitutions, souvereignity and territorial integrity of other countries, what kind of credibility is left there ? an aggressors credibility ?


    Hahahaha... I see you are getting your numbers from your NATO allies... 100,000 troops going to exercise in Belarus...

    We are not talking about Belarus but the Ukrainian border Sherlock.

    Yes, maybe 100,000 is a stretch but a good 40 - 60.000 is still good enough to raise concerns.

    I believe about 8,000 troops were involved


    plus recently 8,000 in tiny Belarus. Congratulations.

    listen to Russias point of view means

    You are trying to imply that what they do is reasonable. What exactly is reasonable about their fence policy and efforts to undermine communication ?

    Actually it was a claim by a young American girl
    They interviewed her on CNN but cut her off when they worked out she wasn't saying bad things about the Russians.

    *Ossetian girl Amanda Kokoeva with her aunt who live in the United States.

    She didn't say anything about Georgian troops deliberately targeting civilian cars trying to escape.

    She says in the interview: "before I say anything else I want to say we were running from Georgian troops that were boming our city, not Russian troops" and it seemed very forced or pre-discussed with her aunt. How in the hell would she know who was firing in the first place ?

    She says that, after she answers the interviewers question "where there bombs falling all the while" ? with "I didn't see any". So go figure.

    On top of that her aunt is sitting next to her, stressing that the Saakashvili started the war and that 2000 people were killed. GG

    Basicaly repeating Russian media claims and a figure that was debunked later by none other than Russia.  

    What are the odds, that she wasn't just another one of those people who were told to claim attrocities committed by Georgian troops that were never proven in the fist place ?

    Or maybe it was just that a person who was upset about Saakashvili for what happened, for what I can't possibly blame him or her, and told her niece to say exactly what she said. I know I would have done so as a parent.

    The only recorded incident of Georgian troops supposedly firing at civilians is when one of them approaches with a white arm strap, but ignores their calls to identify. The Georgains open up on him, but you clearly see in the footage he was armed. White arm straps were generaly worn by the separatist volunteer combatants and some Chechen troops. Something you can also observe in the Donbass conflict.

    Yes because RT doesn't pay ppl for claiming any kind of BS and tin foil theory abut the West lol

    When a burglar breaks into a house.. even if he owns the house and is the landlord, and starts killing people... even accidently I am not going to cry that he cut his hand on the window getting in.  When the occupiers of the house start shooting back and hit a neighbour then that is sad too but why would I blame anyone but those that broke into the house illegally and created the whole situation in the first place.

    Burgler isn't even a fitting analogy but yes, basicaly you ouldn't have described the wars in Chechnya any better.

    And then you say it was Russias fault because of their provocations it never would have happened...

    Yes, because that's all the cause and reason. Nothing just happens.

    You new buddies invented this, but they are the most credible pillars of the moral international community.... no wonder you love them they can do no fucking wrong.

    It kinda shows you have absolutly no idea what you are talking about .... how can you when living thousands of kilometers away .... ?

    Never said or claimed that. They do a lot of things wrong.

    Why would Russia have satellites operating over Georgia?

    I don't know. For starters looking more compotent ?



    You know, irony makes sense when you have a point ....

    how exactly does it negate the fact they are massive hypocrites who are responsible for tens of thousands of deaths in Chechnya just because those people wanted their independence ?

    You are trying to argue with collateral damage that caused the death of a couple hundred people for which Georgia is prosecuting and punishing the people responsible ....

    While supporting separatists who hail people as heros responsible for perpetrating mass murder on an ethnic group ....

    .... and supporting a country that will basicaly nuke you to hell if you try to seperate from it.

    Of course they did.... it was on CNN and the BBC...

    Again, all of those cases can be read.

    No wait a minute that was school children being murdered in Beslan by Chechen terrorists and Russian soldiers fighting them.

    We Georgians also have to deal with Islamic terrorists. But we can differentiate between Islamic terrorists and the rest of an ethnic group.

    You just throw them into the same basket. Figures I pressume. Since you also consider everyone a Nazi.

    Of course... not just Russias fault but also Putins fault too.

    Putin is kind of the President of Russia and the one who decides things .... at least I remember him to be.

    *is our own as it always has been.

    With your logic, Crimea and half of Russia does not belong to Russia.

    We can at least claim more than a millenium and a half.

    Might makes right.

    Oh come the F on. Aren't you the least bit tired of that excuse ? lol

    Grow a pair in the sense of being a man and not hiding behind the US or NATO

    .... show a bit of respect to Russia and the two regions you want to take control of...

    Right. Politics is so easy.

    Why didn't I think of that or the Georgians for that matter ? damn !

    Its not as if Russia was completly undermining any efforts of Georgia or anything .... frikkin smartass ....

    What is "showing a bit of respect" ?

    completly bending your knees and putting the ass up right ?

    Russia has to respect us too.

    Behind NATO skirts they will just see guns and not be interested.

    Russia has not been forthcoming to Georgia whatsoever after it annexed us a couple centuries ago. So what in the hell do they expect ? "Understanding" for being asswipes ?

    It doesn't matter how friendly and cuddly you try to make yourself now, they saw you hit the bitch and they don't think you are genuine in wanting to make up...

    Russia is in no position to question anyone's genuinety.

    It has violated every single point in the Six Point Agreement it signed and its fence policy and troop boosting without any provocation whatsoever is a testiment to the fact they don't desire peace, but only conflict.

    That is why they see reconsiliation and communication a threat, not because Georgia isn't trying. If anything, Russia isn't trying. Rather aggravating the situation continuesly since 2008.

    Right. Maybe the entire world should have gone to war with Russia over Chechnyas independence. Would have been only fair.

    Except nobody is trying to physicaly attack Russia and the US don't need to. They already assessed Russia has more than enough problems.

    You are also confusing resentment and fear of Russian politics with resentment against the Russian populace.

    Georgia has a grudge against Russia for what happened and vice versa. Its apparent in Russias actions.

    Georgians however have no general grudge against Russians and vice versa, at least for the most part.
    There is still more brotherhood and mutuality with them than with Americans and Europeans. However that won't be much longer the case if Russia keeps being antagonistic the way it is, to the point where it doesn't respect Georgia's base rights to exist as a stable and unified country. That's how it is.

    People who are supporting that are nothing less but criminals and a threat to any country and also humanity. I realy have no understanding for that.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Georgia NATO/US Relations

    Post  GarryB on Wed Dec 06, 2017 10:53 am

    Nice try. First of all it was NATO not UN.

    Secondly, the UN resolution on Lybia was approved by 10 and 5 declared abstinance, including Russia, not veto. That's the decicive part here. If those countries were opposing the notion they had all the right to express it. They didn't.

    They approved the stated purpose of the no fly zone.

    The problem was the US and France.. both NATO members, went beyond the mandate of the no fly zone and became a proxy air force to provide air support to the terrorists...


    Funny that you throw your consciousness completly out of the window when defending Russia's past and current actions but are completly devoted in rambling about "NATO".

    Russia has never claimed to be the worlds police or the moral centre of the universe like the west does.

    Calling the local priest out for sinning makes newspaper headlines, calling out the madame of a whore house for shady activities not so much.... there is less hipocracy there...

    Obviously the West also used the opporunity to reform that country, but Lybia is anything but under their influence. In fact neither the EU nor US do realy want to have anything to do with the mess especialy due to ISIS threat, which is being fought and that fight is supported by both the US and Russia.

    Yeah, the west fucked the country up by removing the government and then left it to fester... like a moral respectable high standing individual would do right?

    You keep rambling it's all the "Wests" fault.

    Of course... the west misusing a no fly zone to support a civil war destroying the government system of a country and then running away was all Russias fault because they didn't see what the west was going to do.


    Not "nearby". Physicaly *AT and IN.

    AT and IN from the same people who said Saddam had WMDs ready to use on the battlefield within 45minutes of the order being given and that Irans nuclear weapons will require ABM systems all over the place....

    Look man, no offense, but I gotta side on the rest of world here lol

    Keep drinking the koolaide mate....

    You sound to me like someone who realy wants to see those countries get destroyed. What does that type of rhetoric make you look like ?

    an aggressor maybe ?

    If they would shut the fuck up and quit their constant bitching and moaning I wouldn't give them a second thought to be honest.

    Oh ghad. You don't even get the elemential reasoning to why we want to join NATO.

    Do you realy think we are sacrificing and crippling our people in foreign countries just so we can get at war to lose and cripple more people and the entire country ?

    What do you think we want NATO protection against .... ? very difficult question You consider yourself a genius. I am sure, you can at least figure that one out ....

    Hahahaha.... Are you trying to say you are a country of peace and are joining NATO so there wont be a war?

    Really?

    You are arming yourselves up and trying to join an organisation dedicated to war with Russia so you can avoid a war with Russia?

    The pathetic thing is that they don't even care about their own vets, and you are sending your own people to the little wars they love to fight.. sad.

    BTW NZ went to Vietnam to help the US and that assistance has never been mentioned in any American Vietnam movie or TV series or Documentary I have ever seen...

    Why does Russia not committ more resources in fighting domestic terrorism ?

    Are you saying it does not commit enough?

    There were about 15,000 Russians who went to Syria to fight for ISIS and Russia, by sending forces there has killed quite a few of them... money well spent.

    You are insane and truly suffer delusions.

    NATO didn't hand over ( especialy hand over ) anything we asked since 2001 and not even adequate training. All the Soviet junk we got was acquired for actualy more money than it cost.

    I guess your English is not very good.... let me spell out what I was saying completely:

    [quote]
    So NATO hands over anything you ask for with full training... how many trillions of dollars in debt do you think you would need to spend to make Russia fear Georgia?

    How many civilians would you have left for that sort of armed force?{/quote]


    So lets assume NATO hands over anything you ask for with full training... how many trillions of dollars in debt do you think you would need to spend to make Russia fear Georgia?

    How many civilians would you have left for that sort of armed force?

    Now understand?

    Anything NATO could do whether they would actually even do it or not, could never put Georgia in a position where Russia feared Georgia.

    Ehm ... are making me chose between your credibility and the rest of the world and myself ?

    Oh lets be honest, you have your opinions and believe all my opinions come from RT and Sputnik so you wont listen to anything I have to say anyway, so who are you trying to kid pretending to represent the "world".

    If you say the western world then you might have part of a case but considering the western world includes me then you are clearly wrong.


    Our military goal is not make Russia fear us, but think twice about attacking us, and so that we can hold out at least for a bit and inflict some damage or delay so that the internatioal community can react - if at all. We are not even counting on it.

    That's like the modest of goals any country can have.

    Ironic that you think you need NATO for that... especially when joining NATO will guarantee you get the wrong attention from Russia and they will likely dig in their heels in any future negotiations.

    Former is arguable, latter is a fact.

    Actually all both will do is put a large target on your back. Without NATO in the picture you are an annoyance, but add NATO to the equation and you warrant a few nuclear armed Iskanders aimed at you in the case of WWIII.

    I suppose the case of that rather unlikely event a quick death is better than a slow one..

    Now you shit all over us for acquiring basic defence weapons as Russia is continously boosting its troop presence in both regions for no reasons whatsoever.

    yes, I shit all over georgia for getting Javelins with the harsh comment of "good" now the russians will introduce APS systems on their tanks.
    I should have warned young people and women to look away when I shattered the peace with that explosive and controversial comment...

    In 2008 Georgia launched an offensive.

    You make it sound like you went on a picnic.... and you still pretend it was Russias fault...

    based or implied by what ? your anti Georgian sentiments are irritating. They would have been somewhat understandable during the 2008 war at best. But now you are talking with no evidence or even implication.

    Your views of Russia have not changed over time, why should my views of backstabbing georgia change?

    Especially when you still to this day manage to blame Russia for everything.

    btw NZ - New Zealand ? seriously mate ?

    New Zealand is surrounded by frikkin oceans mofo lol

    What, do you have territorial struggles with the Atlantians and Aquaman .... or the penguins ?

    Bit of a hypocrite aren't we ? you took part in all of those wars.

    Actually it is amusing... many major ports in New Zealand have coastal artillery batteries.... most from the 19th century where the russophobic british population were sure the Russians were coming and that the british navy was too stretched to protect us. Most are gone, but some have been restored to former glory...

    Yeah, I realy don't see what's so funny about that situation. The Iranians have been smuggling weapons and terrorists all over the place way before many of the recent conflicts. The North Korean leadership is just bat shit crazy. Those are two problems.

    Really... Iran and North Korea represent a threat that requires the existence of NATO.

    You better be careful... the militant wing of the Salvation army has slipped under the radar... you need to put them on your list too.

    Saudi Arabia has been the sin pool for everyone, not exclusively the West amigo.

    The Russians have barely dipped their toes in that pool.... the west has been swimming laps for most of last century and all of this century.

    Then they proceeded massacring their entire military officer cadres because they were a potential threat for the future. Thousands were executed.

    Yes, Stalin did do that.. If all of Russia is evil and Poland is innocent and pure then you are just as guilty as Saakasvilii for the invasion and murdering the people of South Ossetia.... see how that works?

    Then during the Warsaw uprising, they just watched how the Nazis quelled it so that the Polish resistance was removed and it was easier for the Soviets to take it from them and establish control without any Polish resistance. Thats a fact even many Russian historians acknowledge.

    Of course they did... why rush to save those bastards based in and supported by the British... they rose up early to take control so they could dictate terms to the Soviets, so the Soviets held back and let the Nazis deal with them.... the same way the west held off potentially risky D-Day landings until 1944 and let the Soviet soldiers kick the stuffing out of the nazis and pay a heavy price themselves.... their biggest miscalcuation was that they didn't expect the Soviet operation
    Bagration to be so successful and the Soviets got to berlin before they could...

    If the western allies had mounted D Day in 1943 the west could have lost 2 or 3 million troops but they would have taken Germany and eastern europe too.

    The west didn't think eastern europe was worth all their guys...

    The allies took Paris along the way to clear it from the Wehrmacht mate .... because France was an occupied country.

    The allies held back from entering Paris so that the French resistance could take it themselves so they could get a little pride back, but it turned out the communist resstance might be the dominant force that took Paris so they asked the D Day force to take paris before it fell to the commies.

    Like I said a sort of mirror to what happened in Warsaw.

    Yeah right, because launching a risky invasion that could have cost the allies hundreds of thousands of troops if they met even adequate, not just decent, but only adequate German resistance .... instead of you know that confused mild mannered mess of opposition they faced, thanks all to diversionary intelligence and espionage building up the operation for years, would have been so much better.

    They could have gone earlier, but did not because they feared excessive casualties of their own forces... not caring about the casualties the Soviets were taking of course.
    They could have gone later but that risked and all Soviet Europe..

    Easy thing to say for someone in his cosy basement somwehre in the sorry - but anus of the world, surrounded by nothing but peaceful oceans.

    Nice and safe yet our alliances with big powers have managed to get us involved in some of the worlds worst conflicts.. starting in the Boer war, then the first WW and the second and of course korea and vietnam and the gulf war and afghanistn.

    Perhaps you feel happy to ignore my warning that joining NATO wont make you safer... being part of the British Empire and then Americas war bitch never made us any safer... and before you try to claim that the US or UK saved out bacon in WWII and that we would be speaking japanese now... the US didn't enter the war until they were attacked and didn't lift a finger to help us before then. They never helped us, they were helping themselves.

    So it's just your fault when you are weak and someone more powerful comes into your house, punches you in the face and declare all your belongings and your ass his play thing right ?

    Some countries bend down and ask for a filling... a bit like Poland, Saudi Arabia, Others fight back...Finland, Chechnia, Vietnam, Afghanistan, Somalia, Cuba, North Korea...

    .... and funnier.

    Like it or not the Soviets experienced war on their own territory and realised that they needed to control a buffer zone outside their territory where they could fight NATO forces... that buffer zone was called Eastern Europe.

    [quote]The West didn't withdraw because of the Soviet threat. Where do you think would the Soviets have halted if the presence of Western allied forces didn't stop them ? in Berlin right ?[/qutoe]

    I mean in the immediate post war period... if the west didn't want the Soviets to feel threatened they should not have armed up western europe.... US forces should have left europe and western europe should have started demilitarisation.

    Instead both sides built up their forces and it all escalated out of control.

    So you'd rather a unified world run by Russia dictated to via a Russian constructed International Institution for Rights controlled by big business that are even more oppressive and undermining ?

    Why would there be any need for a unified world under any one country.... what right would any country control everyone else?

    Because fuck established and recognized nations borders right ? didn't seem to care about that in 2014 either.

    The west accepted Kosovos right to independence.... once that happened the Russians opened their borders to South Ossetia and Abkhazia and with those trade routes open neither region needed georgia any more... Saakashvili attacked them before they become entirely independent like Kosovo did.

    Ironically I doubt Russia would have accepted either region as being independent if Kosovo had not be accepted in the west and Saakashvili had not attacked SO.

    But the Soviets invading to violently overthrow the Afghan regime and establish full control over Aghanistan leading to millions of dead and displaces is absolutly OK or what ?

    Hahahaha.. there is a US documentary about how the CIA proudly admit they tricked the Soviets into invading Afghanistan in revenge for Soviet assistance to Vietnamese forces in the Vietnam war. All those millions dead Afghans because of American spite...

    NATO intervened because Bin Laden openly declared war on them. They removed the Taliban and Al Qaeda threat and fought insurgencies since 2001, now left in 2014 and currently are underway with the Resolute Support Mission.

    My nephew spent 8 months in Afghanistan with NZ troops building schools and hospitals and infrastructure like wells. The US has spent their time kidnapping people in the middle of the night and abusing and torturing prisoners and hunting down Osama.

    If the US spent a small fraction of the money it has spent in the last 40 years destroying afghanistan to help the people of afghanistan they would be in a much much better place now. Instead the Taleban are getting stronger...

    Does Russia care

    Probably not, but at least they don't pretend to like the west does.

    and ?

    so we have no right to exist or have rights ? is that what you're saying ?

    You are a small country, no matter how big the bully is that you hang with.

    The problem you are ignoring is that hanging with the bully gets you into fights with big kids that you are not really equipped for... but why bother... keep sipping the koolaide... you are not listening.

    You as a nation get attacked, you seek for protection from a force that can provide for you.

    Hahaahah... if you don't want to be attacked then don't attack smaller autonomous regions.. whether you think they belong to you or not.

    Being in NATO wont change that.... if you are a fully fledge member of NATO and decide to roll tanks into South Ossetia do you think all those Russian forces will just leave and let you get on with it?

    So your strategy is basicaly surrounding yourself with Nazis so that I can't say I'm not supporting Nazis .... clever.

    I am just calling a spade a spade.... the baltic countries openly have nazi rallys and no one opposes it or speaks out.. so what should I call them but Nazis too.

    you mean besides trying to assimilate and force their socialist doctrines and lifestyle onto them .... right.

    The Soviets didn't run Poland or any other country...they found local communists and put them in power.

    If Poland has a problem with their occupied years it was Poles that were in charge there...

    ... but still it's a fact that those basic of basic military manouvers were first and foremost aimed at eliminating the enemy military. So you have no point.

    They claimed they were liberating the people yet avoided all the populated areas and controled the oil fields...

    At least they actualy thought it through and contemplated and considered. But then aggain Saddam was still Saddam just like Assad is still Assad.

    The operation in Iraq was pathetic... it was like they had no plan for when they had control of the people.

    Yeah those evil American bastards. Not like the Soviet Union, that invaded, raped Afghanistan then left, because its army was worn out by the conflict and it became pointless, just to leave Afghanistan in a greater mess than it already was.

    My nephew told me there is a long waiting list to live in Soviet built apartments in Kabul even today because they are the only buildings with air conditioning and running water. The Soviets built all sort of things there... the americans just blew stuff up.

    still doesn't negate actual facts of illegal military incursion.

    The only illegal military incursion happened on the 8 8 2008.

    Rights make people equal. If you are an advocate of power over right, than that is were we already fundamentaly disagree.

    You are going to hate working with the Americans then... Americans have rights by right of might.

    That is what I'm saying. They stop beeing a bully, we may fully reconsider our political ambitions of joining the West and rather become a neutral buffer.

    You are the bully in your relations with SO and Ab. You have to make the first move, because you are the one making the moves.

    You can continue and try to join NATO and we agree on the results there... Russia will dig in its heels and SO and Ab will remain separate.

    You can step back from the west and NATO and ask for talks with Russia and AB and SO... they might say go jump in the lake, but if you renounce ever joining NATO they might actually think you are serious.... it is OK because later on you can be two faced censored again and just join, but for now you need a powerful gesture and saying no to the US and NATO would be a good one.

    But lets face it you aren't going to do that, you are going to try to join NATO... you have disputed territories so to the letter of the NATO charter you should never be allowed to enter but lets face it... america just doesn't follow rules well.


    and you're sounding like a typical oppressor and invader.

    We are well known for it here in NZ..

    But you do. You care enough to wish them ill.

    I don't wish anything for them.... I really don't care.

    So, after that Revolution, how long are you going to call every democraticaly elected government in Ukraine "illegal" ? until Russia takes over Ukraine and installs another puppet ?

    When there are free and fair elections where all parties are represented and all regions get to vote.

    Generaly I don't understand people who want further division and honestly I see you as a threat to humanity.

    Hahahaha, yeah... lets just have one country... lets call it Russia... russia

    Except Russia is better off without all those nazis and weaklings and hangar ons.


    If those countries where so stable, trustworthy and credible ( instead of you know ..... openly threatening to attack and destroy you and special emphasis on your allies .... ), why would they need nukes or even exist in their current states ? why do all other countries not have nuclear deterrents ?

    So if no one is allowed nukes... except of course Isreal the why does Isreal have nukes?

    They have attacked their neighbours multiple times... they even attack an American spy ship...


    Kiev was not in Russias interest. Finaly taking over the peninsula however was.

    Taking Kiev is in Russias interests if they want the illegal regime in Kiev to stop shelling eastern ukraine... quite a few shells have landed in Russia by the way.


    Yes it does. It were unmarked Russian troops,

    Who cares if they were french maids in surf life saving uniforms, the point is they kept the nazi ukrainian thugs from the ukraine going to the Crimea and causing chaos and preventing a free and fair referendum.

    The people didn't rise up and protest because they got their say at the ballot box.

    If it was a realistic referendum all of Ukraine would have taken part of it.

    What?

    The rest of the Ukraine never took part in any previous unbinding referendums on the subject... which all by the way had similar results... those results were just ignored by the democratic government of Kiev.

    Yes, maybe 100,000 is a stretch but a good 40 - 60.000 is still good enough to raise concerns.

    That is not an unusual amount considering its hostile and unstable neighbour...

    I don't know. For starters looking more compotent ?

    Satellites cost money, Russia doesn't have any satellites like the American Keyhole type satellites scanning the whole earths surface that can be directed to an area in minutes... that is hollywood bullshit.

    how exactly does it negate the fact they are massive hypocrites who are responsible for tens of thousands of deaths in Chechnya just because those people wanted their independence ?

    No, those people wanted to rape and murder and steal... when they got independence they kept on raping and murdering and stealing and so they got what they deserved.

    v

    Why should Russia help Georgia with anything... even then you were in bed with the Americans and NATO.

    Russia has to respect us too.

    What have you done to warrant respect?

    You attack SO, and then ran to the US when the shit hit the fan, now you want NATO to hide behind... what is to respect?

    Like I have said many times... you could man up and step back from the US and NATO and EU and say you want to have genuine talks about the future, or continue what you are doing.. that path leads to further separation and isolation from Russia and Russia is the chosen medium of dialog between SO and Ab with Georgia... like it or not.


    _________________
    “The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order

    ATLASCUB

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    Re: Georgia NATO/US Relations

    Post  ATLASCUB on Wed Dec 06, 2017 7:37 pm

    TheGeorgian wrote:

    NATO isn't an organisation dedicated to war with Russia for several decades now.

    Ohh boy....
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    TheGeorgian

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    Re: Georgia NATO/US Relations

    Post  TheGeorgian on Thu Dec 07, 2017 6:47 pm

    GarryB wrote:The problem was the US and France.. both NATO members, went beyond the mandate of the no fly zone and became a proxy air force to provide air support to the terrorists...

    lol wrong again. First of all, the resolution ratified all means of intervention except occupation to force an immediate ceasefire, with the establishment of a no fly zone as a consequence. Russia was perfectly aware of what was going to happen, yet instead of vetoing, merely abstained. They neither had any foothold there nor prospects of benefit at that time. Plus Kremlin most likely was counting on destabilisation that would possibly bite the "West" in the ass. So it makes sense.

    Secondly, *Opposítion

    You are trying too hard.


    Russia has never claimed to be the worlds police or the moral centre of the universe like the west does.

    and that excuses everything in your eyes .... see there's the problem.

    there is less hipocracy there...

    Good joke. Only it doesn't catch up when Russia pretends to be christian and caring about separatists in other countries because of conflict of interests, yet erradicates anyone who attempts sessession in its own country. Just to name one.

    Yeah, the west fucked the country up by removing the government and then left it to fester... like a moral respectable high standing individual would do right?

    Yeah, like Russia does with all the countries it attacks. But I guess its okay in case of Russia then because its not a moral respectable high standing individual who runs a brothel ? .... right.

    Because fuck others rights.

    Of course... the west misusing a no fly zone to support a civil war

    Do you even read up on anything ?

    The resolution clearly establishes the approval of intervention not just a no-fly zone lol.

    What exactly is hard to understand about "all means necessary except occupation to protect civilians".

    When it comes to misusing mandates and BS excuses, Russia realy shouldn't be the one complaining here ....


    AT and IN from the same people who said Saddam had WMDs ready to use on the battlefield within 45minutes of the order being given and that Irans nuclear weapons will require ABM systems all over the place....

    It was a threat, that got debunked. Iran is an actual threat and also very active terrorism supporter, yet supported and armed by Russia. Iran consistently threatens with the annihilation of Israel and is running a nuclear program. You can't be more direct. Only if they try that they are the ones who will get destroyed not Israel and in all likelyhood, Israel won't even require US support.

    Keep drinking the koolaide mate....

    You are calling everyone a Nazi and put your opinion above the entire world.

    Who is realy drinking Koolaide here ?

    If they would shut the fuck up and quit their constant bitching and moaning I wouldn't give them a second thought to be honest.

    Right .... because people just complain and take measures for shits and giggles.

    Are you trying to say you are a country of peace and are joining NATO so there wont be a war?

    We are obviously, and yes. Give me a single implication or reason we are not. What has happened since 2008 from our side that implies aggression ?

    You are arming yourselves up and trying to join an organisation dedicated to war with Russia so you can avoid a war with Russia?

    NATO wasn't in question at all until 2005 despite several instigated conflicts in the 1990s. Russian provocations preceed Saakashvili and Shevardnadze could do only that much, like his call for US support in 2001 because of Putins threat to intervene against Chechen refugees in Georgia. The goal was to join the EU in the first place. Prospect of NATO membership was emphasized after the 2008 war as detterent against further Russian aggression.

    The pathetic thing is that they don't even care about their own vets, and you are sending your own people to the little wars they love to fight.. sad.

    The men and women who are deploying are doing so to help and assist. Apart of our SF noone deploys just to fight.

    BTW NZ went to Vietnam to help the US and that assistance has never been mentioned in any American Vietnam movie or TV series or Documentary I have ever seen...

    .... and ?

    you also hear little to nothing about Georgians.

    Our SF was one of the primary QRFs in Iraq in 2003 - 2008. Everytime Coalition forces got struck those guys moved out first.

    Our guys were the first on scene when terrorists struck the German consulate in Kabul. Yet they were just briefly mentioned by their ministers and later, the emphasis was put on their KSK and Afghan security forces to give them credit and promote them.

    We have many such examples.

    Ain't fair either.

    There were about 15,000 Russians who went to Syria to fight for ISIS and Russia, by sending forces there has killed quite a few of them... money well spent.

    That is no surprise because Russia first and foremost had to protect its military foothold in Syria. Of course they'd reinforce their base there ....

    So NATO hands over anything you ask

    for with full training... how many trillions of dollars in debt do you think you would need to spend to make Russia fear Georgia?

    Not many at all, and definitly not trillions. Maybe a couple and at very best 4 billion annual budget over a span of up to 8 years .... well invested and strictly overseen. That's completly enough.

    Right now our current annual budget tends to be just over ~300 million maybe and over 90% of that is pure maintanance of the army, saleries and insurances. That leaves barely anything to acquire equipment. Less than 20-40 million. That's pathetic. Take we boost individual saleries and maintainance capabilities so spending on that alone requires 600 - 700 million, then we still have 2-3 billion that can be invested in arms acquirement and military research.

    Again. Georgia doesn't need an overbloated, overstuffed with weapons, army. It needs a professional, decently sized ( in adequate relation to size and demographics ) and perfectly well equipped military and reserve force. Capable of fully defending itself against any threats from the air, sea and land. But that requires some long term investment.

    Plus maintaining the already established permanent NATO Evaluation Center to guarantee adequate preparation and training of troops for warfare and not just policing operations.  

    Oh lets be honest, you have your opinions and believe all my opinions come from RT and Sputnik

    Actualy I avoided going that far.

    so you wont listen to anything I have to say anyway

    I listen but I simply disagree.

    If you say the western world then you might have part of a case but considering the western world includes me then you are clearly wrong.

    Oh boy. You don't get it do you ? ^^

    YOU are not the Western world. SOME PEOPLE from Russia are not the east ....

    I know Russians who disagree with their politics. I know Georgians who are communist. I know Germans who are completly Merica, and others who are Putin admirers.

    That's exactly why I put those adorable terms in quotation marks because I find them silly ah.


    Ironic that you think you need NATO for that...

    How does that not make sense to you ... ?

    I wish we could just simply pull deterrents outta our arses or grow money trees lol

    especially when joining NATO will guarantee you get the wrong attention from Russia and they will likely dig in their heels in any future negotiations.

    Yes because Russia's been doing that shit only just very recently because of fear of NATO, and not just out of insecurity and punishment to maintain foothold and isntability since the breakup in the 1990s .... Georgia was the sharpest advocate of independence before the breakup. I wonder where all that resentment against us and Shevardnadze originates from Wink

    Actually all both will do is put a large target on your back. Without NATO in the picture you are an annoyance, but add NATO to the equation and you warrant a few nuclear armed Iskanders aimed at you in the case of WWIII.

    I know that our mere existence is an annoyance to their rulers. But an annoyance is exactly why Russia supported sessession in Abkhazia that lead to one of the worst massacres in recent history.

    I suppose the case of that rather unlikely event a quick death is better than a slow one..

    How is a slow death ever preferably to a quick one ?

    But jokes aside, Russia won't destroy anyone unless there IS a legit threat. Georgia is not a legit threat or NATO aggression transit route into Russia. Russia can very easily destroy the only 2 means to cross over the border without further bothering if it wanted to. Anything else is absurd. Like a potential NATO attack on Russia. To what end ? world destruction ?

    The very maximum that can happen is Georgia establishing an inpenetrable missile shield if at all lol

    So what would be in such a case ?

    Russia can't easily nuke Tbilisi. Cry me a river. I find that prospect very welcoming and prefarable to our current state.

    yes, I shit all over georgia for getting Javelins with the harsh comment of "good" now the russians will introduce APS systems on their tanks.
    I should have warned young people and women to look away when I shattered the peace with that explosive and controversial comment...

    I meant them. It's hard to differentiate between you and other phobics and Kremlo-supporters.

    In 2008 Georgia launched an offensive.

    You make it sound like you went on a picnic.... and you still pretend it was Russias fault...

    Nobody is pretending. The operation was obviously our doing. Still Doesn't magicaly negate Russian involvment and provocations that lead to it and its previous instigations of conflicts years before.

    Your views of Russia have not changed over time, why should my views of backstabbing georgia change?

    Excuse me, "backstabbing" ?

    You mean like when Russia backstabbed us, not one ( 1801 ), not two ( 1921 ), not three ( 1992 ) but four times now ?

    You got some tasteless humor.

    Russia does little to absolutly nothing - on the contrary - to change its status as a threat to us. Instead it cultivates and continuesly aggravates tension.

    Georgia has been doing everything it can to normalise situations. Now as Russia has proven it doesn't give the slightest fuck about anyone, and would rather continue building up for war, why should we not prepare ourselves to meet a future, seemingly inevitable aggression by buying a handful defense weapons ?

    Especially when you still to this day manage to blame Russia for everything.

    There is nothing to "manage". Russia does shit and behave like a complete asswipe, it is outed as such.

    Really... Iran and North Korea represent a threat that requires the existence of NATO.

    Actualy those are exactle the role models of examples to why such alliances have benefits.

    Saudi Arabia has been the sin pool for everyone, not exclusively the West amigo.

    The Russians have barely dipped their toes in that pool

    Right. Selling weapons for billions upon billions isn't dipping toes .... are you trying to fool yourself or what is this ? hypocrite beyond recovery ....


    Yes, Stalin did do that.. If all of Russia is evil and Poland is innocent and pure then you are just as guilty as Saakasvilii for the invasion and murdering the people of South Ossetia.... see how that works?

    You are implying to have a point .... you don't.

    How are the Polish evil ? by trying to resist Soviet-Nazi occupation or fighting Soviet oppression and murder afterwards ?

    The Georgian operations didn't aim at systematicaly murdering people, but restoring gov control over a rebelious region. You know what operation aimed at systematicaly murdering people ? the Russian organised and backed Abkhaz offensive in 1993.

    Stalin is not the origin of Russo-Polish relation issues. They have their roots in previous conflicts.
    If Stalins actions were not approved and hated, why did the Russians who actualy perpetrated those crimes not resist the orders and went "to hell with this!" ?

    .... see how you are running out of excuses ?

    Of course they did ... why rush to save those bastards based in and supported by the British ...


    wow .... idk, because they desperatey needed help against the Germans slaughtering them .... ? what kind of a human are you even ?

    they rose up early to take control so they could dictate terms to the Soviets

    Of course they'd do Sherlock, it was their damn country ....

    D-Day landings until 1944 and let the Soviet soldiers kick the stuffing out of the nazis

    lol right.

    D-Day happened when it happened because the Germans where mislead to the point they didn't even adequately respond out of pure disbelief for several days, partialy even weeks. A massive landing operation is not the same as a massive ground operation. A lot more many things can go wrong and the US already got a taste of it in an earlier exercise when German U-boats sunk almost their entire force. It requires a lot of planning, deceit and deliberate heavy misdirection.

    Just like Rokossovsky had to before anything could be launched. It took the Soviets tremendous amount of preperation and misdirection. Now imagine how hard it has to be for a long expected huge invasion from sea.

    If the western allies had mounted D Day in 1943 the west could have lost 2 or 3 million troops

    Yeah, so the allies are at fault here now because of avoiding the death of countless many more troops and not reaching Berlin fisrt .... wow.

    The west


    Right .... the "West" that consisted of US, British, Canadian, French, Polish and various other nation's armies and forces, that also took part just didn't care .... they did it for the the lulz.

    Besides, if they didn't "care", they wouldn't have considered it in the first place. Neither be part of an allied effort in the first place.

    The allies held back from entering Paris so that the French resistance could take it themselves

    The allies literaly took Paris in support of the French resistance with the support of the Free French Forces they had landed with ....

    .... but it turned out the communist resstance might be the dominant force that took Paris ....

    Sure, there was absolutly no other reasoning there, like uhm ... idk, defeating the Wehrmacht or something.

    Nonono. It was a bunch of communists they suspected there .... lol

    Like I said a sort of mirror to what happened in Warsaw.

    .... yep, definitly has to be Koolaide

    They could have gone earlier, but did not because they feared excessive casualties of their own forces...

    That's what I'm saying.

    They could have gone later but that risked and all Soviet Europe..

    Which is actualy a valid reason.

    Easy thing to say for someone in his cosy basement somwehre in the sorry - but anus of the world, surrounded by nothing but peaceful oceans.

    Nice and safe yet our alliances with big powers have managed to get us involved in some of the worlds worst conflicts..

    Oh come on .... you poor forced people you ....

    Some countries bend down and ask for a filling... a bit like Poland, Saudi Arabia,  Others fight back...Finland, Chechnia, Vietnam, Afghanistan, Somalia, Cuba, North Korea...

    So when you fight back and get destroyed by the bully, you are in the wrong. Ah, right.

    Like it or not the Soviets experienced war on their own territory and realised that they needed to control a buffer zone outside their territory where they could fight NATO forces... that buffer zone was called Eastern Europe.

    Like it or not, those are souvereign countries that have equal rights as Russia.

    I mean in the immediate post war period... if the west didn't want the Soviets to feel threatened they should not have armed up western europe.... US forces should have left europe and western europe should have started demilitarisation.

    The Soviets occupied and absorbed the entire eastern block into their empire and maintained it so until the breakdown. The only reason they didn't advance further was because they bumped into the Western allies.

    What exactly is wrong about re-arming shattered nations militaries at their own request ? because the prospect of expansion became harder and harder for the Soviet Union ? the Soviet Union also armed its allies to its own benefit.

    Instead both sides built up their forces and it all escalated out of control.

    Yes but in that period it was deterrend versus expansion. Only later it grew into global expansion by both sides but the Soviet Union ultimately crippled itself with those ambitions, because economicaly it had little to nothing to back up the massive military buildup.

    Why would there be any need for a unified world under any one country.... what right would any country control everyone else?

    Who was talking about a single country ? that's exactly how it should not be. If the people of Earth were to unite, they'd mentaly be on a level where borders are seen as a petty nonsense. It is more likely we dumbasses bomb ourselves out of existence.

    Ironically I doubt Russia would have accepted either region as being independent if Kosovo had not be accepted in the west and Saakashvili had not attacked SO.

    That is very unlikely. It would have happened so or so, either by war or without any provocations from anyone whatsoever. Same with the fence policy, it was just a matter of time the Kremlin became frustrated enough with Georgia's EU ambitions it simply wouldn't have given a dam anymore.

    CIA proudly admit they tricked the Soviets into invading Afghanistan

    Why did the Soviet Union intervene in Afghanistan ? because the US was supporting anti-Soviet sentiment and movements against their pro-communist leadership. The Soviet Union wasn't "tricked" into anything. Nobody simply believed in its reasnoning that it invaded Afghanistan to fight those efforts it deemed hostile to its interests.

    in revenge for Soviet assistance to Vietnamese forces in the Vietnam war.

    Yeah, kind of understandable ....

    All those millions dead Afghans because of American spite...[/quote]

    what a load of horseshit. All those millions of dead happened due to the Soviet incursion.

    If the Soviets cared in the slightest they wouldn't have caused so many unnecessary deaths over a decade, wheter you like to twist it this or another way.

    Just a small reminder, wheter or not CIA was in place ( as GRU was in Abkhazia ) before the conflict, is irrelevant when Kabul is surprise attacked and its ( actualy pro Russian ) president shot where he stands just because there was fear of US interference and pure Soviet control over the country had to be established immediately.

    What followed afterwards is all to blame on the Soviet Union. You want to blame the US for continues assisstance of anti-Soviet forces in those 10 years ? cry me a river. Why did the Russians (partialy actively) support the North Vietnamese forces ?


    My nephew spent 8 months in Afghanistan with NZ troops building schools and hospitals and infrastructure like wells. The US has spent their time kidnapping people in the middle of the night and abusing and torturing prisoners and hunting down Osama.

    Sounds very familiar.

    What did the Russian GRU and internal troops do in Chechnya for two decades .... ? kidnapping, abusing and torturing civilians and executing prisoners and hunting down insurgent leaders.

    If the US spent a small fraction of the money it has spent in the last 40 years destroying afghanistan to help the people of afghanistan they would be in a much much better place now. Instead the Taleban are getting stronger...

    Gee .... I wonder what Arab nation is actively arming and supporting terrorist cells ....

    Don't even bother denying it. One of my relatives who was deployed there was part of a unit who prevented weapons smuggling over the Iranian border to Taliban forces.

    Probably not, but at least they don't pretend to like the west does.

    The West doesn't just pretend, it's doing a lot but also undermining a lot because of misplaced resources and the fact they put people into charge who know little to nothing about the demographics.

    You are a small country, no matter how big the bully is that you hang with.

    The problem you are ignoring is that hanging with the bully gets you into fights with big kids that you are not really equipped for... but why bother... keep sipping the koolaide... you are not listening.

    You are the one who isn't listening. You only care for the POV of the bully and justify his actions because "power gives you more rights" basicaly.

    You as a nation get attacked, you seek for protection from a force that can provide for you.

    Hahaahah... if you don't want to be attacked then don't attack smaller autonomous regions.. whether you think they belong to you or not.

    So Russia can simply destroy sessessionists and committ mass murder, but we are to be restrained when trying to prevent sessession. Legit reasoning there buddy ....

    Being in NATO wont change that.... if you are a fully fledge member of NATO and decide to roll tanks into South Ossetia

    What reason would we have to "roll tanks into Samachablo" ... ? we are not Russia. We want to solve this peacefully despite the continues provocations.

    Being part of NATO would completly eliminate even the thought of a military option.

    do you think all those Russian forces will just leave and let you get on with it?

    get on with what ? peaceful negotiations .... yeah, Russia made it blatantly obvious it will take all physical means to prevent that ....

    I am just calling a spade a spade....

    If you were, we wouldn't have this long ass discussion.

    The Soviets didn't run Poland or any other country...they found local communists and put them in power.

    Get real.

    They claimed they were liberating the people yet avoided all the populated areas and controled the oil fields...

    lol this guy is for real ....

    They first and foremost attacked the IRaqi army and secured strategic strongholds. Then they moved into more populated areas when the Iraqi army was already shattered at that point and virtualy disbanded, so it eliminated the threat of bloody urban warfare. Air strikes saw to that as well.

    The operation in Iraq was pathetic... it was like they had no plan for when they had control of the people.

    Like military interventions tend to be. Not all, bust most.

    The Soviets built all sort of things there... the americans just blew stuff up.

    lol sure buddy.

    The only illegal military incursion happened on the 8 8 2008.

    Cute. Keep riding on that one stick.

    Anything by Imperial Russia, the Soviet Union and many unforgivabe things in regards to Chechnya and also 8 8 8 in relation to annexation, invasion, genocide and intervention is what you can call illegal.

    Russias fiddling in Georgia's interal issues since the 1990s is illegal to begin with. Russia shouldn't have even supported those Abkhaz criminals that attacked Sukhumi in 1992, but handed them over. Instead they armed and supported them with thousands of fighters and all sorts of weapons and involvment, despite insisting on not having part in any of that .... and we also know what that lead to.

    THAT is illelgal.

    That is what I'm saying. They stop beeing a bully, we may fully reconsider our political ambitions of joining the West and rather become a neutral buffer.

    You have to make the first move, because you are the one making the moves.

    We already made the first move in 1992 giving Abkhazia full autonomy on their demands, yet for some magical reasons ( nothing to do with Arzingba being a Kremlin puppet and GRU operators in place to prep everything ) an armed gang lead by Arzingba attacked Sukhumi and I won't repeat myself on how Russia instigated a war. Those are facts you can look up yourself. Russia was the bully in that conflict.

    In regards to Samachablo. Why did their Russian puppets insist on provocations before Saakashvili made an issue out of it .... because of provocations .... ? is it maybe because of Kremlins paranoia that they might lose Georgia for good and would rather cause isntability to avert EU and NATO membership ?

    We've been making the first movie ever since 2008. Russia has been responding with hostility to any prospects of reconciliation. So who is the asswipe right now ?

    We are well known for it here in NZ..

    You hardly account for all of NZ and not even a fraction of it. Your strong pro-Russian position rather indicates you are not realy pure NZ heritage. But sorry for assuming again ....

    I don't wish anything for them.... I really don't care.

    If you say so.

    When there are free and fair elections where all parties are represented and all regions get to vote.

    I agree. Crimea should be able to vote too.

    Except Russia is better off without all those nazis and weaklings and hangar ons.

    Sure you ain't the Nazi here ?

    So if no one is allowed nukes... except of course Isreal the why does Isreal have nukes?

    But who decides that noone is allowed to have nukes ? are there any special rules or laws maybe ... treaties ?

    it's mostly based on balance, threats and political as well as just basic credibility and many other requirements.

    You can claim whatever you want about Israel, but did it ever use nukes ? be it to just test them ?

    What credibility does Iran have for example, when threatening to destroy Israel at any given opportunity ? would you give them a nuke that could potentialy cause grevious consequences to the entire world ?

    tell me, how stable is North Korea ? so stable I guess, that even Russia is concerned about their entire nuclear program because of recent events.


    Kiev was not in Russias interest. Finaly taking over the peninsula however was.

    Taking Kiev is in Russias interests

    Nonsense. If it was, they would have attacked Kiev, but not even the Kremlin is stupid enough to wage a senseless war without reason and one it could also never win.


    the point is they kept the nazi ukrainian thugs from the ukraine going to the Crimea and causing chaos

    Ah yes, the mother of all bullshit excuses to why Russia invaded and claimed Ukrainian territory when there was literaly no prospect of that whatsoever. Especialy when there was still political chaos on Ukraine mainland and a Crimea referendum wasn't even talked of at all at that time.

    Let's be at least a little credible here okay ?

    Actual Reasons: fear of Ukrainian EU membership and subsequent withdrawal of Russian forces from the peninsula after expiration of mandate, thus losing an established cosy base for the Black Sea Fleet.

    Plus potential oil reserves.

    ... which all by the way had similar results... those results were just ignored by the democratic government of Kiev.

    all of those supposed results were already proven nonsense.

    That is not an unusual amount considering its .... unstable neighbour...

    .... that it is attacking. Fair enough. Then why be so upset as an aggressor about NATO manouvers in NATO countries .... ?

    satellites

    So we all should be glad, the Russian armed forces have finaly reached somewhat NATO standarts after the post-2008 reforms. Good for them. Only if they also tweaked their mentality and blood lust a little, that be nice.

    No, those people wanted to rape and murder and steal...

    and there goes your credibility ....

    and quite honestly also that you are a fully blooded NZ

    Why should Russia help Georgia with anything... even then you were in bed with the Americans and NATO.

    I don't know. Let's start with base friendly relations with neighbours ?

    Your generaly mentality GarryB so far is that all those people are weak and bitching too much for being victims and would only be dead weight handing on Russia's feet if Russia ever normalised its relations with them.

    The fact Russia is actualy managing to do the very opposite to some of its neighbours, is exactly why the US is preferred by many over Russia and why it is being surrounded by neighbours who fear Russia. How is that progressive or anything to look up at .... ?

    You attack SO, and then ran to the US when the shit hit the fan, now you want NATO to hide behind... what is to respect?

    Idiocracy and forced stupidity at its peak capacity ....

    So Russia has the right to annex and invade us whenever it wants, and do whatever it wants to us in order to serve its own interests despite being a massive hypocrite and we should be bend on only pleasing them and presenting our asses.

    Sounds absolutly acceptable no ?

    "people" who agree to that can go merrily F themselves. Very very hard. Smile
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    GarryB

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    Re: Georgia NATO/US Relations

    Post  GarryB on Fri Dec 08, 2017 11:25 am

    lol wrong again. First of all, the resolution ratified all means of intervention except occupation to force an immediate ceasefire, with the establishment of a no fly zone as a consequence. Russia was perfectly aware of what was going to happen, yet instead of vetoing, merely abstained. They neither had any foothold there nor prospects of benefit at that time. Plus Kremlin most likely was counting on destabilisation that would possibly bite the "West" in the ass. So it makes sense.

    If it had mentioned intervention to support the rebels against the government then Russia would have vetoed.

    When the west bent the meaning of the reslution to allow active operations in support of the rebels... ie acting as their air force it was too late for Russia to do anything.

    Except realise the two faced backstabbing nature of the west... notice they didn't make the same mistake in Syria?


    and that excuses everything in your eyes .... see there's the problem.

    Russia does nothing as bad as the west and does not preach to the world about how they should behave unlike the west.

    That makes Russia better in my book.

    What exactly is hard to understand about "all means necessary except occupation to protect civilians".

    The purpose was to prevent bloodshed and stop the violence to start dialog and a political solution... not bomb the shit out of one side so the disorganised chaotic rebel side prevails.

    The civilians are still fucking suffering even after the west called success, because they could care less about the Libyan civilians, their goal was to kill Gaddafi and they achieved that... pack up and go home.

    Fortunately the delayed result was a refugee flood to Europe.... hahahaha.

    Iran consistently threatens with the annihilation of Israel and is running a nuclear program. You can't be more direct. Only if they try that they are the ones who will get destroyed not Israel and in all likelyhood, Israel won't even require US support.

    WTF has that got to do with Europe and the necessity for NATO?

    Is the only thing keeping Europe safe is the existence of Israel fighting the good fight against those evil persians... after Israel is destroyed is Europe next or something?

    Right .... because people just complain and take measures for shits and giggles.

    If the information they get from their media is anything like the information I see from the US and UK via there media then I agree they should be afraid.

    What they really need to do is use the internet and get a Russian penfriend and actually talk to a few of these evil aggressors that want to occupy eastern europe again.

    They take measures and complain because they are ill informed by people who are not happy at the amount of money they are spending on defence...

    We have many such examples.

    Ain't fair either.

    Don't expect credit or recognition except when they want something...

    And in the end you will be giving rather more than you will ever get in return.

    I wish we could just simply pull deterrents outta our arses or grow money trees lol

    If Russia wanted to destroy Georgia you handed them the opportunity on a plate in 2008.

    What makes you think now that they want to invade you?

    And more importantly even though the US seems keen what makes you think the rest of NATO wants you to join NATO?

    Oh boy. You don't get it do you ? ^^

    YOU are not the Western world. SOME PEOPLE from Russia are not the east ....

    I know Russians who disagree with their politics. I know Georgians who are communist. I know Germans who are completly Merica, and others who are Putin admirers.

    That's exactly why I put those adorable terms in quotation marks because I find them silly ah.

    English is clearly not your native language... when you claim the western world agrees with what you are saying then it is implied that all of the western world therefore agrees with you. So when I say I am part of the western world and I DONT agree with you that refutes what you said.

    You can't say the western world agrees with you because the western world does not agree on anything.


    The very maximum that can happen is Georgia establishing an inpenetrable missile shield if at all lol

    There is no such thing... though for the price you might think so...

    Nobody is pretending. The operation was obviously our doing. Still Doesn't magicaly negate Russian involvment and provocations that lead to it and its previous instigations of conflicts years before.

    Yes, I can see the trial now... you are guilty of murder.... how do you plead... I am guilty of doing the deed your honour, but it was not my fault because the victim of my attack looked at me funny,... I simply had no choice but to attack.... I didn't realise the gun was loaded till after about the 5th round fired and by then I had to finish the job...


    Excuse me, "backstabbing" ?

    You mean like when Russia backstabbed us, not one ( 1801 ), not two ( 1921 ), not three ( 1992 ) but four times now ?

    You got some tasteless humor.

    The history is irrelevant.. Georgia signed a peace treaty with agreed clauses that I am pretty sure did not allow the Georgian army to go into SO and shell its capital city.

    Backstabbing is by definition promising to be friendly to conceal an attack without warning.

    Russia does little to absolutly nothing - on the contrary - to change its status as a threat to us. Instead it cultivates and continuesly aggravates tension.

    You lied and attacked without warning last time, why would they think you will change and give plenty of warning in writing next time?

    Georgia has been doing everything it can to normalise situations.

    Georgia has to earn trust, and wont do that by providing bases for the US and asking to join NATO, which as I said is a military organisation dedicated to "countering" Russia.

    Getting US troops to leave and renouncing NATO would be the only step they would perceive as you wanting to talk and not take what you want by force like you did before, and with an election could try to do again under another less than sane person.


    Right. Selling weapons for billions upon billions isn't dipping toes .... are you trying to fool yourself or what is this ? hypocrite beyond recovery ....

    Look at their force structure... 99% of their weapons are American or European, for which they over paid by billions of dollars.

    There are claims they will buy S-400 and Iskander but there are lots of claims about lots of things... mostly from the Jerusalem Post or other impartial media source... Rolling Eyes

    How are the Polish evil ? by trying to resist Soviet-Nazi occupation or fighting Soviet oppression and murder afterwards ?

    Poland invaded her neighbours when German invaded other parts of them before they invaded Poland.

    Stalin approached Poland and the UK for a military alliance against Germany and both rejected the whole idea.

    Given the choice between no agreement with anyone and all of Poland occupied by Germany or half of Poland as a buffer zone from German forces Stalin made a pretty obvious decision.

    The hostility of the polish forces and people probably made elimination of members of her military seem like a good idea at the time.

    Considering the number of people arbitrarily executed by all the power (including the US and UK and Germany and Japan) the fact that the Soviets did it too is no great surprise.

    If Stalins actions were not approved and hated, why did the Russians who actualy perpetrated those crimes not resist the orders and went "to hell with this!" ?

    Lots of people opposed Stalins orders... they usually got shot on the spot.

    .... see how you are running out of excuses ?

    I don't need excuses... I haven't done anything, but it is you condemning the Russians over their past actions and alot of made up shit as well, without looking at who they were doing it to and why.

    Either way, it does not change anything.

    wow .... idk, because they desperatey needed help against the Germans slaughtering them .... ? what kind of a human are you even ?

    They are as much a threat to a subdued Poland as the nazis are... if you can get them to kill each other all the better.

    The west had the same policy.... let the Commies and the Nazis fight each other in a land war.. supply the commies with equipment and food and hope they destroy each other.

    Of course they'd do Sherlock, it was their damn country ....

    No, at that time it was Germanys country. Of course the Soviets wanted Poland to have a government friendly to the SU and not Britain.


    Just like Rokossovsky had to before anything could be launched. It took the Soviets tremendous amount of preperation and misdirection. Now imagine how hard it has to be for a long expected huge invasion from sea.

    The first few landings might have failed, but they didn't even try because they didn't want to take casualties...and if you think it was so fucking hard to go across the english channel how the fuck did they get expeditionary forces to north africa or to invade Italy?

    How the hell did Aussie and Kiwi troops get to europe and africa to fight if moving forces by sea takes years of planning?

    Yeah, so the allies are at fault here now because of avoiding the death of countless many more troops and not reaching Berlin fisrt .... wow.

    Britain declared war against Germany because Germany invaded Poland... surely if Poland is so fucking important a few million dead soldiers to liberate them should have been their first priority.

    That's what I'm saying.

    So the fear of excessive casualties in their attacking force led directly to the Soviets spending much longer to defeat the Germans themselves with excessive losses.

    Oh come on .... you poor forced people you ....

    The Boers never did us any harm, and nor did the Germans or Japanese or Vietnamese for that matter... yet we travelled thousands of kms to kill them and be killed by them and for what?

    So when you fight back and get destroyed by the bully, you are in the wrong. Ah, right.

    No.

    When you fight back and keep fighting the bully eventually gives up and goes away because no matter how strong the bully country is it can never wipe out an entire country unless it does it poltiically.. ie palestine does not exist because it has been removed from all western maps.

    The palestinian people are still there though.

    Hahhahahha... and right and wrong have nothing to do with anything in conflict.


    Like it or not, those are souvereign countries that have equal rights as Russia.

    Really?

    Most of the world wants the hunting and killing of whales banned, yet Japan continues to do so... does that mean Japan and New Zealand and Australia have equal rights?

    Do you think if Japan was not so economically powerful and able to bribe small island nations in the pacific to vote for them it would have more or less rights?

    The Soviets occupied and absorbed the entire eastern block into their empire and maintained it so until the breakdown. The only reason they didn't advance further was because they bumped into the Western allies.

    The places the Soviets could "occupy" were agreed to.

    It was a condition from the US because the US was afraid that if their nuclear bomb programme failed it would be years or even decades of fighting in the Pacific to come. They made agreements with the Soviets to ensure the Soviets entered the pacific war within a certain period after the surrender of Germany.


    The places to be occupied by whom were also agreed...

    What exactly is wrong about re-arming shattered nations militaries at their own request ? because the prospect of expansion became harder and harder for the Soviet Union ? the Soviet Union also armed its allies to its own benefit.

    If the American military forces had gone home and left civilians to help with the rebuild the Soviets likely would have withdraw most if not all their forces too.

    Their purpose was to counter US forces and to ensure that Germany never again became a threat.

    Who was talking about a single country ? that's exactly how it should not be. If the people of Earth were to unite, they'd mentaly be on a level where borders are seen as a petty nonsense. It is more likely we dumbasses bomb ourselves out of existence.

    I said unified world UNDER a single country... ie the US or UK or Russia or China or India dictating to the world.

    I didn't say the world being one country.

    It would have happened so or so, either by war or without any provocations from anyone whatsoever.

    I see, but it is all still Russias fault?

    Without the precedence of independence of Kosovo, the Russians would not have considered the solution of independent SO and Abkhazia as being acceptable.

    Why did the Soviet Union intervene in Afghanistan ? because the US was supporting anti-Soviet sentiment and movements against their pro-communist leadership. The Soviet Union wasn't "tricked" into anything. Nobody simply believed in its reasnoning that it invaded Afghanistan to fight those efforts it deemed hostile to its interests.

    1979 the CIA was kicked out of Iran, the reason the Soviets invaded Afghanistan was to stop them setting up shop there.

    what a load of horseshit. All those millions of dead happened due to the Soviet incursion.

    And the American CIA claim responsiblity for the Soviet invasion, but all those millions dead was because of Afghan opposition stirred up by the west and Pakistan and Saudi Arabia.

    What did the Russian GRU and internal troops do in Chechnya for two decades .... ? kidnapping, abusing and torturing civilians and executing prisoners and hunting down insurgent leaders.

    So the Russians are only as bad as the Americans.... OK...

    Gee .... I wonder what Arab nation is actively arming and supporting terrorist cells ....

    Don't even bother denying it. One of my relatives who was deployed there was part of a unit who prevented weapons smuggling over the Iranian border to Taliban forces.

    Iranian weapons have been crossing that border for 30 years.... no, probably 300 years.

    Most of the weapons actually come from Pakistan... they can copy almost any small arm today... not as good quality but cheap.

    You are the one who isn't listening. You only care for the POV of the bully and justify his actions because "power gives you more rights" basicaly.

    The simple fact is that might is right. And when your little country attacked the even smaller region of SO you gave up your rights by stirring up an even bigger country.

    So Russia can simply destroy sessessionists and committ mass murder, but we are to be restrained when trying to prevent sessession. Legit reasoning there buddy ....

    When Chechenia started attacking neighbouring regions Moscow had to do something.... remember the Moscow Theatre Siege? Beslan? I don't remember South Ossetian forces doing anything like that in Georgia...

    We want to solve this peacefully despite the continues provocations.

    Being part of NATO would completly eliminate even the thought of a military option.

    Why?

    Do you think being part of NATO will save you if you try to take SO by force again?

    NATO does squat for Turkey against the Kurds.

    NATO does not oblige member states to join an attack on a third country... hense Turkey was not obliged to support the operation of Desert Storm despite it being led by NATO member US and including the UK and France etc etc.

    It is one of the main reasons they don't like taking countries with territorial disputes... which seems to rule out Ukrainian and Georgian membership.

    You hardly account for all of NZ and not even a fraction of it. Your strong pro-Russian position rather indicates you are not realy pure NZ heritage. But sorry for assuming again ....

    Hahaha... I am a 6th generation New Zealander with my ancestry coming from England, Scotland, and Wales.

    I agree. Crimea should be able to vote too.

    They did.

    And they seem happy with the result and are not calling for more votes.

    Sure you ain't the Nazi here ?

    The Soviet Union had an ideology to push, which means carrying the weak and pursuading the strong.

    Russia has no baggage and can ignore the weak that don't want to be friends... let them join NATO and be safe there... let the west pay for them.

    What credibility does Iran have for example, when threatening to destroy Israel at any given opportunity ? would you give them a nuke that could potentialy cause grevious consequences to the entire world ?

    Israel is surrounded by hostile more populated countries which it has attacked on several occasions to steal land. Why should they be trusted with nuclear weapons either?

    tell me, how stable is North Korea ? so stable I guess, that even Russia is concerned about their entire nuclear program because of recent events.

    how stable is the US.... a few more black people get shot by police and they can have problems... they have a two party system where everyone seems to be sick of both sides.... that is not going to end well... and they are the only country in the world to have actually used nuclear weapons against an enemy... unless you count Putin who regularly uses polonium to kill his enemies.... Twisted Evil Twisted Evil

    Actual Reasons: fear of Ukrainian EU membership and subsequent withdrawal of Russian forces from the peninsula after expiration of mandate, thus losing an established cosy base for the Black Sea Fleet.

    Plus potential oil reserves.

    Or the fact that the majority of the population in crimea are Russian, and its status being Ukrainian is merely bureaucratic nonsense from the cold war.

    The west pushed them into a corner with their coup in Kiev and the Russians made the best of a bad situation and gave the Crimean people a choice.

    .... that it is attacking. Fair enough. Then why be so upset as an aggressor about NATO manouvers in NATO countries .... ?

    Well first of all I don't see how you can equate Russian forces inside Russian borders with US and other NATO forces in Eastern Europe.... and second of all it does not bother me in the slightest where they practise... having them close to the border puts them in Iskander range.


    I don't know. Let's start with base friendly relations with neighbours ?

    Your generaly mentality GarryB so far is that all those people are weak and bitching too much for being victims and would only be dead weight handing on Russia's feet if Russia ever normalised its relations with them.

    The fact Russia is actualy managing to do the very opposite to some of its neighbours, is exactly why the US is preferred by many over Russia and why it is being surrounded by neighbours who fear Russia. How is that progressive or anything to look up at .... ?

    Russia is not the Soviet Union.... it has no political view to sell, so it can be friends with pretty much anyone.... and its communist heritage means it can be friends with communist china or communist north korea, or myanmar or cuba or Saudi arabia or Pakistan.

    The point is that no other country is obliged to be friends back, so while they can be friends with everyone there are plenty of people not interested like Poland or the UK.

    Russia could bust a gut trying to be best buddies with everyone but some will take rather more convincing than others.

    What I am saying is that to be friends with Poland or the US requires Russia to be their bitch... a huge pile of resources for them to exploit.

    That will be great for the US and overnight the rich people who own the media like CNN and Fox news will go from hating Russia to loving everything and anything about them, and soon after all of Russias resources will start to be used up faster than you can pour a drink of coke down a sink.

    Russia does not need those sort of friends.... there are a lot of countries around the world who don't want to stab Russia in the back and just want open trade so both sides can make money and grow.

    So Russia has the right to annex and invade us whenever it wants, and do whatever it wants to us in order to serve its own interests despite being a massive hypocrite and we should be bend on only pleasing them and presenting our asses.

    Russia has not annexed anything.

    Crimea voted to join the Russian federation.

    If you insist on joining NATO and letting the US military come and play on your territory there is nothing you can do to please Russia... other than not attack SO and Ab again.

    It is about rebuilding trust and joining NATO does the opposite of that.

    I have told you plenty of times and you want to ignore me.

    What else is there to say?


    _________________
    “The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order

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      Current date/time is Sun Dec 17, 2017 6:40 pm