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HoleThe WWII is long gone. carriers won´t fight against carriers. Russian Tu-22M3´s and MiG-31K´s with their Kh-32´s and Kinzahls will fight carriers.
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Russian Naval Shipbuilding Industry: News
Hole- Posts : 10762
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GarryB- Posts : 39049
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It's only Temporary tho.
And even if Russia has one carrier battle group now. Good luck facing 10+ from the US. Russia and China combined wont match Us naval power in the high seas till the 2040s and beyond. No point losing sleep over it.
Right now if the Peter the Great was operational and the Kuznetsov was operational and they had a few support vessels available now would be a really good time to sail to Venezuela for those naval drills they have been planning for ages with their ally Venezuela... they don't need to sink any US ships let alone carriers... their presence would deter the US from any invasion plans they might be currently cooking up.
Other potential trade partners of Russia will look at that and think perhaps the times of the US bullying central and south american countries into buying F-5 fighters and cheaply buying their products instead of getting a better price in other markets might be over...
A Russian navy with a carrier and large ships means global reach... it doesn't mean WWIII, what it means is that it gives Russia a say in things... right now the US can largely ignore what Russia is saying about the rule of international law regarding their attempt to illegally overthrow the democratically elected Maduro... because they don't have the naval strength to back it up... if that situation remains then Russia will stay where it is because who is going to pick trade with them over the potential US overthrow of their government?
This is about Russias future... do they want an independent strong voice and the right to trade in peace with countries it chooses and choose them, or do they want to be Americas bitch and just tow the line or else.
Trade with Venezuela might be a couple of billion a year... but it can grow and become more substantial and they can trade with any other country they like too, but over the years even a 2 billion dollar a year trade relationship will pay for the carriers over a decade... and there will be more than just one country wanting fair trade with a country that can produce farm equipment and currently has gone from a food importer to a food exporter in less than a decade...
Admin- Posts : 2926
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OKB is going to have some hard infrastructure choices to make. Either they invest a billion into building a modern dry dock big enough for carriers or they give up on it altogether. It doesn't look like they want to invest in anything bigger than accommodating a Mistral. PD-41 was decommed in 2010, there is no bringing that back to life.
verkhoturye51- Posts : 438
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Rakhmanov has said they decided to join two dry docks together at 35th Ship repair center.
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verkhoturye51 wrote:Rakhmanov has said they decided to join two dry docks together at 35th Ship repair center.
Rosatom tho said that wont be suitable for maintenance of their Project 22220 for which they wanted to use PD-50. And they cant make so large floating dock themself at this point.
verkhoturye51- Posts : 438
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The icebreakers are smaller by all dimensions.
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verkhoturye51 wrote:The icebreakers are smaller by all dimensions.
Dont kill the messenger, there is apparently reason why its not suitable if Rosatom said so. I do not know exact reason.
Admin- Posts : 2926
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verkhoturye51 wrote:Rakhmanov has said they decided to join two dry docks together at 35th Ship repair center.
It needs a dock with 305m length, the two docks are only 187 and 236m long. It would take a couple years to carry out such work and not as easy as knocking out a wall. As mentioned it would also effect icebreaker refits which are the life blood of the Arctic. The other solution is ordering a floating dock from China, which would also take years. Any solution sees completion of the refit being pushed back from 2021 to 2023 or later.
marcellogo- Posts : 638
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Vladimir79 wrote:verkhoturye51 wrote:Rakhmanov has said they decided to join two dry docks together at 35th Ship repair center.
It needs a dock with 305m length, the two docks are only 187 and 236m long. It would take a couple years to carry out such work and not as easy as knocking out a wall. As mentioned it would also effect icebreaker refits which are the life blood of the Arctic. The other solution is ordering a floating dock from China, which would also take years. Any solution sees completion of the refit being pushed back from 2021 to 2023 or later.
Are not the russian shipbuilders able to built ships in separate parts and link them together?
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marcellogo wrote:
Are not the russian shipbuilders able to built ships in separate parts and link them together?
Modular shipbuilding is not really a thing in Russia. Once the pieces are connected you wouldn't pull them apart anyway. You need a a dry dock to get the ship out of the water to service it.
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marcellogo wrote:Vladimir79 wrote:verkhoturye51 wrote:Rakhmanov has said they decided to join two dry docks together at 35th Ship repair center.
It needs a dock with 305m length, the two docks are only 187 and 236m long. It would take a couple years to carry out such work and not as easy as knocking out a wall. As mentioned it would also effect icebreaker refits which are the life blood of the Arctic. The other solution is ordering a floating dock from China, which would also take years. Any solution sees completion of the refit being pushed back from 2021 to 2023 or later.
Are not the russian shipbuilders able to built ships in separate parts and link them together?
Floating docks are mostly used for overhaul.
Tsavo Lion- Posts : 5815
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That would be the less of 2 or 3 evils, i.e. towing the Adm. K elsewhere, &/ buying a new floating drydock & towing it there, delaying its refit. Once completed, that joined dock will accommodate 2 or more ships/subs at the same time.It would take a couple years to carry out such work and not as easy as knocking out a wall. As mentioned it would also effect icebreaker refits which are the life blood of the Arctic.
Later, they may salvage the PD-50- even if it's not repaired, the scrap metal alone is probably worth it.
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Tsavo Lion wrote:That would be the less of 2 or 3 evils, i.e. towing the Adm. K elsewhere, &/ buying a new floating drydock & towing it there, delaying its refit. Once completed, that joined dock will accommodate 2 or more ships/subs at the same time.It would take a couple years to carry out such work and not as easy as knocking out a wall. As mentioned it would also effect icebreaker refits which are the life blood of the Arctic.
Later, they may salvage the PD-50- even if it's not repaired, the scrap metal alone is probably worth it.
Part of the industrial policy that guides the implementation of projects is its value to the industry. That is the work it provides to your shipyards, the aircraft manufactures, missiles, weapons ect. The most important factor is export potential. The reason it has been kept around this long was as a ship to test deck fighters with export potential, that being MiG-29K and its future variants. If we have to pay China to build us a dry dock, or work on it in a Chinese shipyard that is work not going to our shipyards and also raising the cost to profit margin. Let us be blunt, the ship has served no military purpose over the course of its life and it never will. The excursion over Syria was a complete disaster and national embarrassment. The money allocated for its refit was cut in half and cut out adding any new equipment that would benefit our suppliers. The recent RFI by India for 57 deck fighters does not include MiG as a real contender. It does not make industrial or financial sense to keep this ship operational. It is time to put it to rest, sell our MiG-29Ks to India and put all of that money into building the Shtorm.
Isos- Posts : 11303
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They won't sell their mig-29 because Shtorm will mostly carry them.
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Isos wrote:They won't sell their mig-29 because Shtorm will mostly carry them.
By the time Shtorm would be IOC the current 29s would be EOL... it is going to take that long. A new CATOBAR design will be required. It is time to invest in the future, not the past.
Isos- Posts : 11303
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Vladimir79 wrote:Isos wrote:They won't sell their mig-29 because Shtorm will mostly carry them.
By the time Shtorm would be IOC the current 29s would be EOL... it is going to take that long. A new CATOBAR design will be required. It is time to invest in the future, not the past.
I know but if shtorm is only ready, I mean ready to operate, in 15 years from now they will need something new to keep the carrier based capability. Today's pilot with the experience of carrier operation, which is by the way very modest, will be retired or even lose that experience.
And how it goes it looks like K has no future or very short one.
Then they will need something btw the K end and the Shtorm. Something like a light Shtorm fast to build.
nero- Posts : 217
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[quote="Isos"]
The AK is a cruiser with the ability to launch aircraft. It was meant to protect the fleet (surfacing nuclear submarines) rather than an entity that was supposed to be protected, like American carrier and their strike groups. This is why it has a huge amount of armaments (before it was somewhat gutted)
They don't need a carrier at all. They never needed one or used carriers in the same way the US Navy did.Vladimir79 wrote:Then they will need something btw the K end and the Shtorm. Something like a light Shtorm fast to build.
The AK is a cruiser with the ability to launch aircraft. It was meant to protect the fleet (surfacing nuclear submarines) rather than an entity that was supposed to be protected, like American carrier and their strike groups. This is why it has a huge amount of armaments (before it was somewhat gutted)
Isos- Posts : 11303
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nero wrote:
They don't need a carrier at all. They never needed one or used carriers in the same way the US Navy did.
The AK is a cruiser with the ability to launch aircraft. It was meant to protect the fleet (surfacing nuclear submarines) rather than an entity that was supposed to be protected, like American carrier and their strike groups. This is why it has a huge amount of armaments (before it was somewhat gutted)
Aircrafts > ships.
If you want a blue water navy you will need fighters in the air to protect the ships. Be it in open ocean or near an enemy.
Air defence on ships are now only good against the antiship missiles targeting them, the aircrafts launching them stay out of range or use radar horizon to hide.
With a carrier you can intercept the fighters before they can launch their missiles, you can destroy enemy fleet, you have a big plateform to carry a ten or more ka-27 to fight subs and you can use the fighters to launch cheaper kh-59 missiles in bigger numbers against enemy bases while kalibr are limited by the uksk space and numbers.
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Isos wrote:
I know but if shtorm is only ready, I mean ready to operate, in 15 years from now they will need something new to keep the carrier based capability. Today's pilot with the experience of carrier operation, which is by the way very modest, will be retired or even lose that experience.
And how it goes it looks like K has no future or very short one.
Then they will need something btw the K end and the Shtorm. Something like a light Shtorm fast to build.
Operating any of the current equipment would have little to do with operations on the Shtorm. All of the current cadre would be retired by then so keeping the skills for something totally foreign are irrelevant. With the new super carrier the skills to operate on and from it will be built from scratch.
SeigSoloyvov- Posts : 3700
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Isos wrote:Vladimir79 wrote:Isos wrote:They won't sell their mig-29 because Shtorm will mostly carry them.
By the time Shtorm would be IOC the current 29s would be EOL... it is going to take that long. A new CATOBAR design will be required. It is time to invest in the future, not the past.
I know but if shtorm is only ready, I mean ready to operate, in 15 years from now they will need something new to keep the carrier based capability. Today's pilot with the experience of carrier operation, which is by the way very modest, will be retired or even lose that experience.
And how it goes it looks like K has no future or very short one.
Then they will need something btw the K end and the Shtorm. Something like a light Shtorm fast to build.
By the time a carrier like a shtorm is laid down and ready for use all of the current pilots would be retired, again you just don't lay down a carrier, they have things to do before they are ready, like Vlad mentioned docks etc.
I've said all of this alias people don't wanna hear it, cause it comes from an american.
That said there is ways they can keep carrier training going, Russia also isn't going to lay down a new CV just for the pilots to train on.
Tsavo Lion- Posts : 5815
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The UDKs will be built before any CVNs, as they r higher priority & actually more useful to the VMF; if need be, some naval aviators will be kept at NITKAs to train others, if they refuse those orders, they'll be prosecuted & lose their retirement pay. The VMF isn't a yacht club!
Dima- Posts : 1222
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I see a lot of uncertainty regarding suitable place for refitting the Kuznetsov (or for that matter, building a new carrier), but I would like to repeat what I have posted/said year(s) before - Zaliv is back in Russia and it has to be utilised to built/repair aircraft carriers. I had long back posted updates regarding the small scale repair works, housing projects etc that was planned/undertaken for the yard and yet I'm surprised that people simply doesn't even remember a very large yard that came back to Russia after loosing it for over 25 years.
Zaliv has got the required dry docks for accommodating large ships. Only thing needed is the will (to make it happen, including modification/modernisation), which will open the gates (Turkey) for Kuznetsov to enter (tow) the Black sea for modernisation. This way the yard will also get prepared for any future plans w.r.t carrier construction. One of the main obstructions that I see in the current situation is leeching from other yards, particularly the large Zvezda in far east.
http://www.zaliv.com/en/graving-dock-and-building-berths
The longest ship built there was an Oil tanker (6 nos were built) with following dimensions
Max. length - 295,2 m
Length between perpendicular - 277,1 m
Breadth - 45 m
Deadweight - 150000 t
Displacement - 181000 t
http://www.zaliv.com/en/shipbuilding
The main 360m dry dock
The twin 400m building berths
And its a beautiful yard, always liked its layout.
Zaliv has got the required dry docks for accommodating large ships. Only thing needed is the will (to make it happen, including modification/modernisation), which will open the gates (Turkey) for Kuznetsov to enter (tow) the Black sea for modernisation. This way the yard will also get prepared for any future plans w.r.t carrier construction. One of the main obstructions that I see in the current situation is leeching from other yards, particularly the large Zvezda in far east.
http://www.zaliv.com/en/graving-dock-and-building-berths
The graving dock (360 x 60 x 13.2 m) is serviced by two gantry cranes, 320 t capacity each and 5 portal cranes, 80 t capacity. The cranes enable to assemble a hull from large sections and blocks weighing up to 600 t.
It is possible to divide the graving dock into two spaces by a caisson and repair vessels in parallel with ship construction. The other building area has two horizontal building berths, 400 m long with following cranes: 2 cranes of 80 t lifting capacity, 3 cranes of 32 t lifting capacity, 4 cranes of 16 t lifting capacity. Both berths have a common side launch providing for launching of vessels up to 2500 t steel weight.
The longest ship built there was an Oil tanker (6 nos were built) with following dimensions
Max. length - 295,2 m
Length between perpendicular - 277,1 m
Breadth - 45 m
Deadweight - 150000 t
Displacement - 181000 t
http://www.zaliv.com/en/shipbuilding
The main 360m dry dock
The twin 400m building berths
And its a beautiful yard, always liked its layout.
Dima- Posts : 1222
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Some snaps from the event when some financial aid trickled down to Zaliv for some small scale construction
Main dry dock
The Ukrainians definitely weren't happy.
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Main dry dock
The Ukrainians definitely weren't happy.
Admin- Posts : 2926
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Tsavo Lion wrote:The UDKs will be built before any CVNs, as they r higher priority & actually more useful to the VMF; if need be, some naval aviators will be kept at NITKAs to train others, if they refuse those orders, they'll be prosecuted & lose their retirement pay. The VMF isn't a yacht club!
Our biggest weakness right now is marine gas turbines. Our biggest strength is nuclear propulsion, a new carrier and destroyer class based on nuclear is the one thing we can do right now if we invest the money.
Dima- Posts : 1222
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Yes they do. Yantar shipyard build the second set of Indian 11356 Frigates with small modules like we see below. This one of the bow being shifted from its workshop to be placed on the hull. Search for 11356 construction at Yantar and you will get much more images of hull sections in varying degree of completion.marcellogo wrote:Are not the russian shipbuilders able to built ships in separate parts and link them together?
Modules like these make up the hull. Modular construction varies on complexity, but still these are all modular construction.
